Patti Palmer and Danny Bell

00:02 My name is Patti Palmer. I Am 61 years. Old. Today is Sunday, September 19th. In Wilmington, North Carolina. And my friend's name is Danny Bell and his relationship to me as a friend.

00:19 Hello, my name is Danny Bell. I'm 73 years old today, stayed at Sunday, September 19th. Where in Wilmington? North Carolina. My interview partner is Patricia.

00:33 And she is a friend and a former graduate student.

00:39 Okay. Well, the reason we wanted to do this. I encouraged asked you to do this. Danny is because one I believe in the power of the story of of each of us shaping our own narrative and telling her own story in her own voice. And as, you know, the reason we came to know each other was because I was working on my thesis on the American, Indian Pow. Wow, and I couldn't find native resources. I could find a lot of Western European influences, but not native. So I reached out to you as my deadline was approaching and you had quite a treasure Trove of information. And but even you at Chapel Hill in the main library, there wasn't a lot of information on Native authors. There were few. So that's kind of how we got to know each other. And that's why I wanted to do this today so that you would have a story to tell your kids and that you have a new granddaughter. So

01:39 That's kind of the the whole reason for this. So I guess I'll just jump right in and I just want to ask you about your roots, your from North Carolina. I moved all over the country. Tell me more about how you grew up, where you grew up a little bit about your tribal history and I'll jump in if I have any questions wrong, but my parents are from North Carolina. My mother is from the Lumbee. Indian tribe of Robertson County. She grew up there with two local Indian School and in churches.

02:17 She I went to Pembroke State College for Indians and graduated in 1945 and her first job at the graduating was to teach at the American Indian School in my father's Community. My father is, so you could Harry engine from Sampson County, even though he was born his birth certificate lists him as a pretend, but there was this new Indian school was built in 1943 East Carolina, Indian School. And so, my mother came started teaching met. My father who had just recently returned from serving in the armed forces overseas.

03:01 And they were married. And so, I grew up there and the local American Indian Community, Harry and the community. We had our own church. We churches Baptist Church, Holiness Church on Methodist church, and we had her own school and where I had her own Indian Community which functioned in a wonderful way during this time of segregation. And that's one of the things I wanted to talk to you about. I mean, obviously growing up where you did and a small world part of North Carolina, and you had a small community, very close-knit Community, but there were also you grew up in a time of segregation, you were not allowed to go to the white school. So I was going to ask you tell me about the best parts of your childhood. What it was like and the ones that adversely affected your identity.

03:59 I'm well just trust during the days of segregation. But, you know, I, you know, I think all of us are part of segregated societies. All through our lives. We have a set of friends and other things that we are that are exclusive to us and our friends or acquaintances, but growing up within the community. We we had the Indian School and church and a relationship and

04:32 It was, I don't think we missed the integration that much there was aspects of integration. That could have been one. I guess good. The only one that I remember that affected us was not being able to go into the soda fountain by downtown and having a Coke float. But otherwise, they're not the kind of many restaurants around 2.

05:11 8th. And so we had everything that we needed right at home and in our community we recreational area. We could go to White Lake which was a segregated Lake but they allowed American Indians to go there. The African Americans were went to Johns Lake which is a few miles away. We were able to go to the coast and fish and Johnnie Mercer's Pier and we're going there when it was restricted. And it was a segregated time for African Americans on a lot of places, but American Indian should sort of skirted in between the black and the white issues. And any of the school system. There was three schools, the white school, the black school in American Indian School. In our American Indian School closed in 1965 and the integrated American Indians few years before they integrated African Americans.

06:07 I don't think that's the untold story across, North Carolina is an American Indians were been used to integrate places before African Americans in sort of a transition. And that's the story that has never been told. Do you want to elaborate on that a little more and how it continues today in the American education system, where what I see is that there is a efforts across the country and especially in the South toward diversity and

06:40 Integration, but the I see that most of the attention is, is been given towards African-American diversity. And not American Indian diversity. I mean, I think the American African-American story should be told, but I think the American Indian story should also be told, and it has not been you go to most universities in North Carolina. They don't talk about American Indians. If they're talking about American, Indians were speaking about Federal Indian policy about reservation, Indians and about treaties, but they rarely talk about engines at the East Coast, which were the first ones to make contact in the first ones to be assimilated into.

07:29 The society and we had a difficult more difficult time. I think maintaining any kind of language or systems. You know, when you look at that resonated engines on the west. I mean, the reservations were terrible to a lot of Indians. They were abused till you hear about in Canada. And what happened to the youth up there, the wind benefit of the reservations is the American Indians were able to keep their language or intact. They were able to keep their culture or attack. They were you going to insulated from the majority culture and other aspects? And there's good and bad in any kind of situation. But we that is the end of the story about American Indians, we survived and we're trying to thrive in the South but our identity is sort of hidden in this

08:25 Multicultural dialogue in a when people say people of color. They're not saying American Indian. That we are lost whenever that kind of term is used. And I encourage everyone to. When you're speaking about American Indian, say American Indians. Say Native Americans or say the tribe of people that you're speaking about and not use a general term that sort of makes us invisible.

08:54 Well, and I remember doing my thesis and feeling so inept, feeling that I didn't know the right questions to ask. I did. I am remember, specifically asked me, what do I say, Native American or do I say American Indian, which is it? Because I think all of us are so afraid of sounding racist. We don't want to sound racist. We don't know the right quit. And you were so kind. You said, sometimes it's about, you know, it's so would you say that still correct Indian or American Indian later? And are there were tribal names when you just to Tuscarora War their names, given to other kinds of conflict regarding American, Indians all across the country.

09:44 But American Indian was the first term used in later on Native American. We are native to this country and but then, you know, some tribes tribal people want to differentiate themselves and not speak Polish up an engine because we have unique cultures. There's five hundred and some tribes all across the United States and Alaska. And we have such different Customs, traditions and views of ourselves, and that should be respected. And when appropriate identify who you're talking about, but in a general sense, I think most people are okay with Native American or American Indian. And if someone has a problem with that, then maybe it would be good to have a conversation with them and respect. What is important to them.

10:37 Well, and with that, you are truly a Native American Elder a, both your tribes or at least one and you never talk about orb. You yourself as an elder. You're very quiet. You're very dignified. You don't ever draw tension to yourself, but always to the issues of American Indians and Native issues and Native American education issues, but for as long as I've known you, you have been an elder. Is there a reason. You don't identify yourself as an elder the way some people do in other cultures.

11:14 Well, I think so. Well, what do I think about this? Well, I am speaking for myself when I you hear my voice and I don't want to be speaking for as for everyone else, and some of the issues that I speak towards sometimes are about youth issues about time.

11:41 People of American Indians of all ages. So I see their people that I recognize that have many strengths and the academic world, the

11:56 Industrial world and life. And I give them the respect. And so I'll accept an elder and a senior citizen discount at the local grocery store. But you knows it's not that important. Why I, I what I see is speaking about myself is not as imported. That's what benefits all of our community because we benefit all of our community and I can speak for everyone and I voiced it's not just about me then. I feel like we're all going to benefit better was on the nonlexical communicative patterns of the American Indian Pow. Wow. The vocable the the

12:41 Picturing that. But but what I found most interesting as I proceeded and doing my thesis with the power of community and the importance of community. I come from Irish Americans and we have been Nomad. Since we ended up on in this country. We live everywhere, were transient. I didn't really understand the power of community until I met you and interviewed people from all the different, the Wacom Isuzu, the kohari, the Lumbee, the hallowissa pony, the that's when I understood why it is so important or when the women were wrapping the quilt around the, the shoulders of someone who had lost a child, to remember their family, that is the power of community, and you're still very involved. You could be retired, doing nothing. And you are going to powwows, you're talking to people. You're trying to get the younger people involved in their communities. So do you want to talk? Just a little more about why you

13:41 Think Community is so important.

13:43 Well, I think we are such a small community. There's not you know, if you look at the numbers in any situation, you know, and American Indians are invisible. The media were invisible in the media. You don't see American Indian athletes. We don't see any movie stars in the newscasters. No, Indians. If there's our news report about American Indians, that something terrible has happened on the reservation somewhere. We don't, we are not celebrated in a way. And so this community is a way for me to certify, you know, is it's like maybe we're not recognized outside for anything but within our community we can validate the resources and the honor that we should be given to our people.

14:41 I would hope that the larger Community would.

14:46 Include us. But, you know, we've tried, we've tried to raise our voices and it seems that it's just not our time yet and no Indian lives, don't matter. And for the most part across this country. I think there's a fear of her place on the land, the land acknowledgement, this it's like there's this fear that we're going to ask for everything back then. I don't think American Indians were not bad at all. What we really want is to be included and engaged with and respected for Who We Are.

15:21 So what would your message be to say the students, the current students at Chapel Hill for the students that are just now going to college and starting to understand. There is an American Indian Center, but I don't know how active it is. What would you say to young people coming to college about their identities?

15:46 Well, I think that they should be aware of the

15:53 How how beneficial are a treasure? It is that they are smart enough and given the opportunity to be in college. And so they should ask the elders asked the younger. People asked the administration's to help them help, prepare them for the life going forward. As it's one thing to have in the curriculum. The science courses is social studies, the other courses but leadership is something that we need to have bring in the American Indian Community in to help educate the youth. But also the educated, the administrations of the universities to help prepare them for the American Indians to too many times American Indian student, so they don't know what to ask for. And so they need to be prepared.

16:50 Adequately by the administration's but also their tribal communities. Have a role to play in asking what are what is the, what will the university, dude? Pair our students for success in society, but also to prepare them for success and engagement with their tribal Community. We have a lot of work to do.

17:17 As we grow long for this life, and so, let's work together and communicate bore about where we want to go. And how do we get there?

17:27 So you have three children of one just your oldest just had a baby. So now you have your first grandchild and I know you want her to understand her Origins her roots. And I think you do. You want to talk a little bit more about that. What would you want to say to her as a young baby coming into a western society and how not to forget her roots?

17:57 Well, that's a tough one. Society is changing everything that we're experiencing today. You can look in the news and hear reports of all these.

18:13 Systems that are seen to be failing and and I think it's you could go back a hundred years, a thousand years, you know, I think there's always this kind of a message.

18:26 And so you are the best thing I think is to be, well, grounded in understanding. Your people. Who is your people, who are your people who learned about your past, but take a balance and prepare yourself for the future, and the balance that there is no challenges out there, but there are opportunities also, to find a positive and put a positive spin on things. I mean, the environment is one of our most important things that sustains us and it's under attack. So I just be aware and but keep some balance in your life so that you don't get consumed with all the negativity. But you find something positive to to benefit from and prepare for a fruitful life.

19:23 And I think that's the challenge to find the balance. It's easy to go to the negative and say nothing's, right? And it's it's easy to be sort of pollyannaish and say everything's fine. But it's always been important to me to move outside of my own Circle to understand how other people think and moved around. A lot of lived, a lot of places. And so I'm always a bit taken aback when people seem to be just fine with the way things are your not, I'm not, I think culturally were just beginning to have an awareness of other cultures and into to be more appreciative, and understanding and inquisitive. So, that's why I asked you personally, if there was a message, you wanted your own children and grandchild to have so that they didn't.

20:15 Feel that there was no need to ask questions.

20:19 Write. This is tough. It's tough growing up for everyone and regardless of where you are, and you can be the wealthy family, a poor family in between homeless. There's always going to be a challenge. We think. Well, everyone with all the resources in the world. They don't have any problems. Well, there's, there's a lot of issues that can affect how someone lives through the life. And so we need to put our stuff. We can put ourselves into other people's situation and what they're experiencing, but we can at least try to find some understanding of where they are and not judge.

21:01 Everyone based on someone else's perception. We need to have some tolerance, but communication, if there's more communication in this country, especially in the racial issues and other cultural issues and there's more communication. I think things will be better, but everyone is in their own silos and there's not any peace makers that are bringing people together to sort of work through things. I mean, you know, you hear about racial issues white and black community but no one is bringing them together, you know, to really talk and find a way forward and we always going to be talking about the past forever. We can talk about slavery. Well-adjusted in the beginning of this country what it existed all around the world for as long as mankind has ever been breathing and it's going to continue in some parts of the world, much longer. I mean, we can identify it.

21:57 But then let's find a way to us, some better understanding. And not always use certain things as a crutch. I mean, Eda is Indian issues. We have Indians that are federally recognized in some of the state recognized and there's the Divide there, but then, even with them, that divide there are, you know, it's like you can make a list of the negative things on one side, and the positives on the other things, we disagree with things are agree with. And I think, if we started working and talking to each other, we'd find that we agree on many more things and we can work toward understanding better, those that we don't agree on.

22:36 Well, and I would agree with you because had you not been diplomatic and a peacemaker. I probably wouldn't have finished thesis because I, I just, I knew I was a white woman in a, to the unity conference and I had my questions prepared, and I noticed that nobody would talk to me and and I didn't. I was so naive at the time. I didn't realize that I was in a world where I wasn't really welcome or wanted, and you made sure that I was able to at least ask questions and an open and a few others as well. From some of the other tribes that allowed me to ask questions and and

23:15 Had an appreciation and understanding that my naivete was not malicious. I just didn't know. And I think that's what's so important. It is to have an understanding that sometimes people simply don't know, and you've always for, as long as I've known you been the Diplomat and Ben The Peacemaker and not. So angry that you refuse to hear other side. So you are, do you want to run away to say when you, when we met at the unity conference? I have been engaged or involved with graduate students at Carolina and graduate. Students are the very thing that it's the beginning of the real research, in some fashion, for some of the disciplines. And, you know, if we were, I worked everyone valued what graduate students were doing. We put value on their dissertations, the Theses, the research that's involved in that is

24:15 Important to the American Indians because we don't have that much research happening. Or sometimes at the research has someone's doing some research. It's not shared back with us and she is research for research shape sake for a degree or for some benefiting the student, but maybe not benefiting the tribe that's being researched. And so, you and many of the students that I've seen it Carolina, one of their research to be a beneficial to the American Indian Community. So that why am I always, you know, supportive of that? One of the faculty that I worked with us, either produce. She said don't get in the way of the research, you know, help them as much as you can, but don't burden them with a bunch of other issues. And I could always, you know, I want someone to do something that I thought was more important, but I had to realize that there was

25:15 Process and do what we could to support The Graduate students, but also the undergraduate since they start this whole journey of getting an education that's going to benefit themselves, but also benefit their communities.

25:29 Wow, and I don't know why I thought of this just now, but I remember you no faith hedgepeth. The young woman that attended UNC Charlotte was murdered and they have just arrested a suspect. And she was the first generation student to from her tribe. Hollow saponi, tribe. And I remember reading, and you can tell me if you agree or disagree with this, that she struggled academically and financially to stay there because her world was so different. She didn't have the preparation. She didn't have the that most people do, you know, I remember going to Carolina and I've never taken a foreign language and then I decided to take Latin. I was woefully unprepared and just had to study study. So I think what I'm going, I'm going with that question is

26:19 I guess I've lost my train of thought but basically was how

26:25 How do we prepare these all of us to do the research, to ask the questions, you know, to take that risk, even if you're shut down, including people of of American Indian tribes so that we aren't woefully unprepared.

26:41 Well, from what I know about faith hedgepeth and, you know, others there might been a blip in the road as far as the academic but she she was capable of doing whatever she wanted at Carolina and she she was recipient of the Udall scholarship. So she didn't have the financial issues there. But the bigger issue was that and it's all over the places. I colleges and universities have not.

27:13 Have not employed American Indian staff for the most part that understands American Indians. So, if there was an ID there, it was for more American Indian, understanding, a better understanding of American Indians. We're not going to have enough, American Indians to go everywhere. And B student services. Representatives counselors. We need to train the non-indians that are at these schools on how to address American Indians and how to connect with the tribes and all that. And I think Faith hedgepeth would have been a success even without having the resources, she needed. But she was just a young student going into this major university has, it could be if she went to anywhere else.

28:10 And just trying to find her way. I mean, it's like a lot of students. I've heard of they come to Carolina to come to the major school and after the first chemistry test and they change their major and if they have to end. So I think she would have succeeded at Carolina and let you know where we're trying to work out the social party. Do you find friends? You have to navigate. What, who is a good friend, is a bad friend. And, you know, I think that she, it was so unfortunate for her. And it's only been unfortunate for others that have been attacked by Predators at the University. But, you know, it's not. True line is not a school with predators and then just a lot of non students in all of our communities that you have to watch out for and you can maybe never be prepared for

29:06 But you know, I wish like we have to make sure that other students at other Universities at all. The universities have the resources they need and the orientation. They need to try to help them find their way and to succeed.

29:24 Well.

29:26 I wanted to ask you given all that, we talked about this going to be a little more personal, given your constraints in, and we all have them, you know, I believe it's called structuration. We're an organization, constrains an individual, in an individual response to those constraints, as best as he or she can, I've had constraints, you've had constraints given your constraints. Do you have any regrets like you could have done something but you didn't or what is it? You want your kids to go out and do? Because you didn't

30:04 I regret. I mean it's like I you know, hindsight is twenty-twenty, you know.

30:11 You know, it's what?

30:16 Everyone would have changed something that they had done at a particular times, maybe in the past, but then it would, you know, you can't put your finger on what Fate has in store for us. And we have to find today start started this morning and you know, it's not going forward. And the regret I would have is if I don't take advantage of good things that are in my future. If I turn, you know, how can I make sure that I don't have any regrets going forward. I can't affect those in the past but going forward, I can make sure that I am.

31:02 Treating everyone, as I would like to be treated and that I used, what time I have left to.

31:13 Benefit.

31:15 Life, you know, I be.

31:20 Hopefully we can not get a handle on the environmental damage that's been done and make him if we can do that. Maybe the life of her. The next Generation, this will be better. But if we don't I'd have a regret. If I didn't do good things going for it, but in the past, I can't affect or do anything about that. So I really can't because it has brought me to this point right now. I'm still alive and able to communicate with people. And so I have been blessed with what I've received so far. I appreciate a lot about you is that you continue to stay active. Both physically, you're involved in the Iran. A couple boards, you're involved in committee work, both Carolina and around your community, but

32:19 Just stay active and we are very similar in that way that we just look at the opportunities we have today and we make the most of them and that's I think one of the reasons our friendship is so strong. So that's the kind of answered all my questions, but I wanted to ask you a very glad you spoke as much as you did about an American Indian issues because as a white woman, I'm almost afraid to ask and you have never made me feel ashamed of things. I didn't know. And so, I'm glad you talked as much as you did about your tribes, your communities, All American Indian communities, both in education, and that's really all I had. I didn't have a whole lot of questions because I wanted to let this be an open-ended discussion. So is there anything? I didn't ask you that you wish I would have asked.

33:17 No, I mean, I don't know. We just always questions to people that have. I'm, I'm glad for the opportunity of storycorps, you know, I have heard them in the past and I look forward to hearing more storycorps. I'd stories about American Indians and American Indians of the past and the present. And also, how do we, how do we help capture stories that have been written or that are hidden and local Indian communities and make them part of the story of our communities, are larger communities. The story of North Carolina. I'm in North Carolina. And so, I hope that someone hearing this or some others will make an effort to help our tribal communities better. Tell our stories when there's some stories, maybe should not be, we may not want out in the public, but we do want the story of our

34:17 The life before contact, you know, they're pre-contact stories that you can get from archaeology and other signs left on the land. But the first Contact up until now there is such a wealth of information that if that we, we need relationships and I look forward to opportunities that are coming our way.

34:50 No, thank you. I agree that the power of the story and power to shape your own narrative and tell your story in your own voice and words is very important. So that's essentially why I wanted to do this. Thank you for your interest and American Indians. And what you've done to help him doing the research, for the haluwasa, pony, tri-band for the other interested, you have and being an advocate for what others understand about us.