Paul Baresel and Mat Robedee

[00:04] PAUL BARESEL: My name is Paul Baresel I am 69 years old. Today's date is May 30, 2023. Our location has Fort Williams State park in Maine. The name of the interview partner is my son, Matt Robedee

[00:26] MATT ROBEDEE: My name is Matt Robedee I am 38 years old. Today's date is May 30 of 2023. Currently located at Fort Williams State park in Maine. Paul Baresel is who I'm interviewing today, and he's my father. So, Paul. So we're here to talk about military experiences, and I understand, based on stories we've had together, that you have a rather unique one to share, and it pertains to your father and the service that he had and the experience that came along with that, that he passed on to you. So I was wondering if you might want to start that off, kind of like, where did you grow up and kind of give us the start of your story and your first introduction to it.

[01:16] PAUL BARESEL: Well, this pertains to both my younger brother, Bruce and myself. We were raised in Hanson, Massachusetts, and we were farmers and worked in the woods. We had some summer camps. And of the such. And so how this pertains to both of us, really, is that when we were kids growing up, occasionally, as happens in some married couples, is that they may have a little difficulty here once in a while, but was more dramatic when my mother was taking a knife and cutting up a turnip or potato or stabbing away at anything, saying and muttering to herself, that damn frenchwoman. So my brother and I, I guess we didn't know that we were practicing the proverb that discretion is the better part of valor by not asking any questions. So this kind of went on here. Well, my mother died young, and I was living in Maine. And over a period of time thereafter, my mother died, and my father and I became closest friends, not just more as a father son relationship. And so over a period of time, what he would do was begin to open up to me about his experiences in World War Two. Normally, this would come about after we are lubricated with some good french brandy, which he always picked out for the occasion there when he showed up at the house. But it was a time in his life where he knew that his own end was coming and that he wanted me to understand some of the things he went through only to try to pass them on and also to learn what made his character.

[03:13] MATT ROBEDEE: So, Paul, I'm just actually curious about that. Did your father share any of his experiences with you while you were a child, or do you see that he became more vulnerable and open to sharing his military experience with you after the passing of your mom. Did you get any after? So when you're growing up, there was no.

[03:33] PAUL BARESEL: And I had been in the military myself for about seven years at that time. And so we both had, could understand each other's background and some of these emotions. So I was kind of surprised about it one day when I was working on my old home at the time, he came up, and he used to come up there for a weekend and spend about a week.

[04:04] MATT ROBEDEE: And where was this at?

[04:05] PAUL BARESEL: That was in Limerick, Maine. And we would end up working together in different projects. We'd talk about art, history, news and whatever really came to mind. He'd tell me some stories about growing up in Hanson as a child and maybe a few about my mother. But it wasn't really towards the evening there when we would settle down, watch tv and talk there and have a few drinks, where he began to open up. And I think he really wanted to open up because he was lonely and also because most of his friends had died, and there's very few people he could relate to with the type of experience that he had in the service. Now, I didn't have a. The, the dramatic experience of war that my father experienced, but when I was in the coast guard, we did a lot of search and rescue. And so sometimes we were successful in rescuing people. Other times we were not. The ultimate thing is behind it. We had to make our own. I guess we had to become comfortable with the notion of death in either way behind it. So he started off really telling me a little bit more what it was like in combat.

[05:34] MATT ROBEDEE: Did he enlist himself or was he drafted into the war?

[05:37] PAUL BARESEL: Well, during that period of time there, I mean, he enlisted and he went into the infantry, and he always would tell me that in boot camp, they didn't have any guns. So here they are trying to be marksmen there with a broomstick. So. But when he got out, he said to me one time, they want to put them in tanks. And he says, no way. He says a moving foxhole attracts a lot of attention. So he really wanted to be on his own in the infantry. And over a period of time going on with this thing, there is that he became a sniper. Now, my father really didn't enjoy the notion of being a sniper. He wanted it for the money. He also told me that he wanted some combat badge as soon as possible because he got up to $10 more a month. And he said, well, that was good money for whatever. So apparently the United States army would shell a town. And so after the shelling was done, my father would go in. He'd volunteer to go in, and as a sniper, pick off enemy snipers. Always before he left, there were people who would place bets on him whether he would come back alive or not. He came back alive, but he also developed some very critical skills in his job as a sniper. The interesting thing about it, he never talked about who he killed or what he did. He just said, in, I had a job to do, and I was good at it. Fine. So one time my father came up to see me, and I was very surprised. He was acting like he was 20 years old again. I mean, he was actually happy. He had spark in his eyes. He was so excited. And, you know, how old do you.

[07:49] MATT ROBEDEE: Think he was at that time, would you guess?

[07:51] PAUL BARESEL: Probably my age in that era. All right. So, anyways, I finally had to look at him. I says, is everything okay back home? Says, yeah, I just heard from Denise. Oh, boy. I said to myself, who was Denise? I mean, this is our long lost daughter or somebody else here that we don't know about. And, well, I said, okay, whatever. And then he told me about Denise and how they met. So, as I said earlier, my father was a sniper, and he used to go into a town that was shelled and remove other snipers so that the american troops could occupy the town. And I said, he did this for money, but he eventually made it into occupied France. And the platoon or what he was with, or the small group of people there where they were, they were in Vichy France. And Vichy France. Washington. An interesting political development. During World War two, there was a vichy. Vichy was a french state and was headed by Marshal Philippi pertain during World War two. So he agreed to sign an armistice with the nazi government to split the city in half. Half was to be free and unoccupied while the other half was under nazi rule. And he also had to agree to the harsh terms by the nazi government to adopt a policy of collaboration with the nazi government. In return, the Nazis occupied Vichy, part of Vichy that became a playground for the Nazi SS and other high ranking officials of Hitler's fascist regime. So the Vichy french government collaborated to seek out Jews and other undesirables by the nazi rule. And I will tell you right now that my father hated the Vichy French and the SS. He witnessed what the violence and the pleasure the SS did in torturing and murdering the prisoners. My father could never believe how a fellow french citizen could turn in another fellow citizen to the SS and be tortured. This is the notion of collaboration. So one day my father was coming back from one of his events, and he found a young girl sitting by the side of the road on his way back. And he noticed that she was tattooed, designating her as a nazi whore. Pregnant and in poor health, he took her to his outfit. He found out that her name was Denise and that she was 17 years old, and she escaped, really, from a prison camp. But going back there, Denise and her family were turned into the SS. Bye. A Vichy french collaborator. Denise was raped in front of her parents and siblings. The SS tied her on the ground naked. The SS pinned her head so that she could not turn it. She watched all of her family members being executed one by one in front of her. Denise was next, tattooed with a number designating her as a Nancy camphor. She bided her time until she found one person of her physical stature. She killed him and put on all his clothing except for his shoes. She walked to the latrine barefoot, and next put on the man's shoes. This way, the dogs would pick up her scent only to the latrine and then lose it. She jumped on a truck that was going out on a movement that night. She escaped, and after they were let out of the nazi compound. Now, my father made sure Denise got the best physical care from a doctor to a dentist. Denise actually lived in my father's tent barracks while she was pregnant.

[12:18] MATT ROBEDEE: And when is it during that time, when they spent time, when you're saying she lived with your father in the barracks, that she shared this information about the history and her experience with him? Is that how her story came to be?

[12:30] PAUL BARESEL: Yes. But you see, let's clarify one thing. It just wasn't one single tent. The barracks was a group of tents. And so everybody that was in there, you know, took an interest in her and her concern and shared stories.

[12:44] MATT ROBEDEE: So she was well received by everybody?

[12:46] PAUL BARESEL: Yes. Well, they knew what she had been through.

[12:49] MATT ROBEDEE: Yeah.

[12:49] PAUL BARESEL: All right. So anyways, the other reason my father said they could do this is that, of course, through the separation here of officers from enlisted men, the officers were under their own compound away from the enlisted men, so nobody was bothered. So anyways, I will say this much, as dad didn't mention there that the soldiers there felt a lot of empathy for Denise. So time moves on. Denise has a child. And so she placed the child in care of the catholic church in France and became a registered prostitute. The money was to help support her daughter. Now, Denise hated the SS for what they did to her family and used herself as Bate, she would work in a bar, seduce a SS officer or other elite nazi staff to follow her outside into the street. My father and his group met the SS, and the rest is history.

[13:57] MATT ROBEDEE: Do you know how long that that type of relationship lasted between them in regards to.

[14:04] PAUL BARESEL: Quite a while.

[14:05] MATT ROBEDEE: Quite a while.

[14:06] PAUL BARESEL: And, I mean, this was not a one time thing.

[14:11] MATT ROBEDEE: And just to back it up just a little bit to get back to where we are in a second here, but I just do have one question. Is your father, you know, as a sniper, going into very heavily armed, intense areas, seeing some of the worst situations that human being can experience and individuals going through trauma and shark and everything that man experienced, what do you think motivated him at that moment to help out this one lady that's on the side of the street? Like what? Like what?

[14:39] PAUL BARESEL: Basically, because he was a good man and he just was looking for maybe some way to do some right and to amend all the wrongs that were going on. And now this is very important to understand because it was Denise who volunteered herself to be used as bait. Nobody wanted to. Nobody asked her to. They just felt sorry and had a lot of empathy for this poor girl who was raped by a nazi soldier. All right. And was really left out to die while pregnant. While pregnant, yeah. So anyways, the thing was, one time, one time things did not go well for Denise, and she was captured by the SS. My father wanted his group to go back and save her. The officer in charge stated, why? She's only a whore. My father did not tell me what he did after that or after the officer referred to Denise as a whore. He only told me that he came back several hours later by himself and Denise in hand. Nobody asked any questions. So the war raged on. And as the western european front was winding down, my father was sent on a transport ship to Japan. He had told me that he and Denise had talked about marriage and of the sort, but they were both realists in the fact that one of them could be killed at any moment. So they departed as friends. They lost contact with each other. So the day my father had visited me, he got a phone call from Denise's daughter that morning. The daughter told him who she was and that if she ever got to the United States to try to contact my dad, he told me how surprised and happy he was for her to know that Denise was alive, got married and had only one child, and she owned a bakery. The problem was that time had passed and he could only remember Denise as a young child. So they talked for some time. And then it was time to go.

[17:01] MATT ROBEDEE: Did he. Did Denise's daughter say where Denise is now? Was she alive?

[17:08] PAUL BARESEL: I didn't. I know she was alive. There are times in life where you don't ask questions. So why I feel that this is an important story. It doesn't. It's not only the talking about the atrocities that were done by the Nazis, the SS, and the Vichy French, but it was more importantly here is that it's a story of survival. And here, most men, as my father said to me when he was sent overseas, you were considered to be an old man if you lived a week. All right, so this is where I understand, or I know now that my father told our mother about Denise. So one can only surmise what my mother thought of Denise, but this is why my father was acting like a kid when he saw me, you know, telling me the story about Denise. She was alive, and I felt that he was still in love with her.

[18:21] MATT ROBEDEE: Hmm. So during that time, when he was talking to Denise's daughter, did she share any other information or just do you have any other knowledge of things they talked about that day on the phone? Because I would imagine it's a pretty intense conversation that she would be having with him.

[18:41] PAUL BARESEL: I would. I would surmise so. But as. Again, as I said, it's his story. And he. I let him tell me what he wanted me to know.

[18:54] MATT ROBEDEE: Did he ever mention where the daughter, anything about her at all?

[18:58] PAUL BARESEL: No. And I think that's because he wanted. He was more. I think the important thing to understand with this story is that he was just happy to know that somebody he was working with and involved with survived.

[19:18] MATT ROBEDEE: Though I'd imagine it kind of brings some peace to all the hardship and all the pain that he experienced to know that the product of everything that he had to go through was the health and life of both niece and her daughter.

[19:34] PAUL BARESEL: Yes, exactly. That's it. Because this is one thing that dad said, you know, you don't make friends when you're in the front. You don't know 1 second whether you're going to be alive or the person next to you is going to be alive. And there's no sense, you know, we see you later. Yeah, we'll have a beer later on. If you do. You're damn lucky if you don't. You don't ask any questions. He told me a few things there that were comical in some ways. My father and one of his friends there used to liberate a lot of wine from the. From the navy and from the Marinesen and bring it back over to their camp. But in town, as the western front was ending, he said, in one of these big bars, there were men from all over eastern Europe, and they were telling stories in different languages. So one person would tell it in their language. Another person at the end of the table will stand up and translate it. Another person will translate it. All right? So you can imagine how this story began, but nobody gave a hoot about it. They were alive. They were alive and they had camaraderie. All right? And that's the important thing. Who cares about the story? They were finally being able to release some of the motions that they had pent up in them. He said that party lasted for two days, and he doesn't remember halfway through the day, he was so drunk. On the other side of the coin, one of the reasons why he became so embittered to the cruelty of war was the fact that they were being shelled. And when you're being shelled, you have no idea where the shell is going. It's a crapshoot. Well, he and several of his men were in a. Where a shell had landed. It was a big crater. Of course they're going. Gunfire. They go for that and everything. So they were trying to figure out where the shelling was coming from. And he stood up at that exact moment as the fox. Well, the trench they were in, the bomb hole that they were in the. Was attacked and shelled again. Well, he was thrown out and knocked unconscious. So then the SS and the Nazis came through, and they decided to use a very horrible scare tactic to the allied soldiers. They decapitated all the bodies and stacked them. Now, the only reason they didn't do this to my father, it was because he was found dead. They thought he was dead when he was really knocked out. So this affected him very greatly. There was no need of that atrocity. But this is what he. This is one of the motivations why he became a sniper.

[22:55] MATT ROBEDEE: So kind of going back just a little bit here. I know you say that you do move. You go through the experience, and you move on. His real joy came from, and the story of Denise came from knowing that she survived, knowing that his daughter survived. But there's still a couple of things. One, that your mom being like that dang french woman, clearly she came up a lot. And your mom also knew the impact that Denise had on your father and also his expression of such happiness once Denise daughter reached out. Looking back in your life, do you recall any time your father may have showed or expressed a little bit of, like, can I not regret or, like, the sadness of, like, not having. Maintaining that connection or a curiosity. Did any times in your life that came up other than when your mom was chopping turnips that you, like, did you ever say anything that you're just like, oh, because you did say, like, you know, you knew that he. I mean, clearly a part of him loved her. They went through such tragic moments and trauma together that bonds people together. Do you think he was very contented in that separation, or do you think he kind of had this little side of always the curiosity, like, that we don't have as much now due to social media, that he didn't have that time to be able just to google this lady. Do you think he was always had this curiosity, basically. Basically?

[24:25] PAUL BARESEL: Well, yes, and it's just not the issue. I mean, look, they were comrades. They were fighting. They just weren't friends or lovers or whatever. And all right, they were in combat. All right, so you have the notion of camaraderie, and what Denise did by offering herself as bait was very, very brave. She could just been. If they caught on to her, they didn't even have to. No trial, nothing. They just shoot her right on the spot. All right, so knowing this and that, she was professional enough in her own emotions, knowing that what she was doing, she could die at any moment, was no different than my father said there in combat, if you make it a week, you're an old man. So what I never. My brother and I didn't understand is that here, after we were born and stuff, there were a lot of families that came by to see my father, and we'd be introduced to him or whatever, and that was about it. But a lot of these guys served with my father, and they knew because of his experience as a sniper and everything, he'd get them home. And so a lot of guys did come through before my father came back and saw his parents, my grandparents, and said who they were and what of company and that, you know, my father helped them out and did a lot of things like that to make sure that they could be as safe as possible, you know, as you can be with bullets flying around you and stuff. But a lot of these people respected my father, and they came by to make sure that he was all right. But again, that's no different. There was no social media. They didn't know where they lived. As for Denise, you got to remember, in Europe, towns were just leveled, so there was no place to go. You had to start over again, now, I did not ask, and I don't know what he would say, why she never contacted him. She knew the town, but she may have not been able to speak English.

[26:54] MATT ROBEDEE: I have a question about that. So you being obviously very proud and passionate about your father's experience and story, have you ever thought about trying to contact either Denise or her daughter? Not necessarily in a way of trying to build a relationship necessarily with them, but to try to get more knowledge about your father, who seems to have these stories. Have you ever thought about reaching out to these two or connecting with them and what that may be able to offer you an insight more upon a man who seems like has many stories?

[27:32] PAUL BARESEL: But no. First off, I didn't know her last name and I did not know where they fought. I just knew it was an occupied France. And as I said earlier, there are some things in life that you, you know, when you've been through some situations in the combat or search and rescue that you don't need to talk about.

[27:54] MATT ROBEDEE: But not necessarily him, but you like, it's a story that your father has now, you know, brought with him, you know, to the end. And is that something that you would ever just be curious about? I'm just generally. I would personally be curious. So that's why I'm just. I'm just wondering that part, like, if this was. Yeah, I think I would just be generally curious.

[28:17] PAUL BARESEL: Well, you see, we're all talking, Matt, first off, a whole different generation. I mean, you got social media, you got support groups and everything like that. There were no support groups. When the guys came back home, my father said, my wife was my support person. PSTD was not even talked about. Shell shock was another term used in world War one or world War two, all right, for people who had an emotional breakdown while on active duty in combat. But the thing is, behind it, I also had to respect my father, all right, by not probing too deeply into what was going on. Because if I did, he may know in him he wouldn't say another thing about it. It be dropped. That's it, over and out. So this is where you have to understand where sometimes it's. You have to respect and learn when not to ask questions. So just so I make sure I understand you. Right. So it was, it was Denise's daughter that reached out, but your father never again spoke to Denise or connected with her? No. I mean, I don't think it even dawned on him because he was just so happy that Denise survived. You know, I mean, that's the key thing. I mean, these. This is the. More than the camaraderie behind it, you know, sitting in a bio room or whatever, they're telling stories, she survived. And that's these guys who saw my father, they survived. And that is the celebration of life that unless you really been in their shoes before, you don't really understand the other stuff. Well, you know, fine, he moved on. She survived. She had the daughter. She was married, started a bakery. And he said to him that was all he needed in life. She made it.

[30:38] MATT ROBEDEE: And how do you think this experience.

[30:43] PAUL BARESEL: Impacted your father's character or values after the war? I think the way to describe it would be is that my father would. I'm just trying to think of the word here. All right, got to stop for a minute here. After the war. After the war, my father did not want to be involved into, let's say, the VFW or anything else because he wanted to try to move on, all right, and put this chapter of his life behind him, all right? As many soldiers who have been in combat do. I was lucky that he opened up to me, and I think the only reason he opened up to me is that I've got some similar experiences. And so then this, we have a relationship or a starting point on. And granted, he saw all combat where I saw very minimal, all right? But he also just wanted to tell the story. And he really didn't say, but I could just tell he didn't want to have it be forgotten, because it's the notion of the empathy of all the enlisted menta to take care of this one girl, all right? Pick her off the streets and take care of her. Then the bravery of this girl to use herself as bait, knowing that she could be killed at any instance. But she did this because she wanted, literally revenge on the SS in the Vichy French for murdering her parents and doing what they did to her. So there's a lot of times where my mother would talk about something, well, you know, your father was over in combat and saw this and that, and I go, well, I didn't know that. You're not going to. That's because I was too young and inexperienced with life at that time. But this is where, in part of trying to have Matt maybe understand some things about this, because it was a different time. There was no social media, no self help groups, no, you know, the VA itself there really didn't understand what PSTD was even back then. So even the idea of going to the VFW or a few other organizations like that, that gave you some camaraderie to talk about, but it's not the same thing. If you have somebody you were in combat with and sitting in the trenches with or something like that, show up in your door and say, I'm alive. And that's really the important thing to respect about him, is that that's one thing about this story and why not going to a lot of detail. I feel respects him and his wartime experience. It also respects Denise, because I can probably guarantee you they did missions like this for a long time while they could because he made it through the western front, and then he got shipped over to Japan. As he said, halfway there, they dropped the barn, turned around, and I went fishing. So I hope that answers some of your questions and understanding this.

[34:51] MATT ROBEDEE: It does. No, it does. I want to just ask one more. It's very similar to what I was asking, but I'm there, your father side. Nothing to do with the question I'm about to ask you, just you as Paul Baresel only you have Denise, who shared this experience with your father. Put Denise aside as well. You're in a different time than your father was, where there is support groups, where there is social media, where there is instant knowledge and history tracking and all that. Have you, Paul Baresel ever been curious about meeting Denise's daughter being two child children of. No.

[35:31] PAUL BARESEL: No, none whatsoever. I mean, I don't know her last name.

[35:35] MATT ROBEDEE: Uh, but it never just.

[35:38] PAUL BARESEL: No. I mean, what are we going to talk about?

[35:40] MATT ROBEDEE: I don't know.

[35:40] PAUL BARESEL: That's what I mean. You know, hi. You know, and you go, it's like meeting some long lost distant cousin. Oh, that's nice. You know, let's go have some wine, cheese. All right. Or something like that. But, I mean, it's. You have to respect Denise's daughter's feeling about things. I'm sure her mother must have really opened up to her about the situation that was going on over there, because once the war was over, people were still surviving. You know what I mean? Just trying to eat, never mind put some type of roof over your head. So you just went from hand to mouth over there, which a lot of people can't relate to. And I think that, as in anything else, Denise's daughter was in the war as a baby, but also grew up with the aftermath of seeing what the. What the war could do mean eliminating.

[36:49] MATT ROBEDEE: Well, you both as well. So that's why I was curious about that bond of being two individuals who have a parent that were both in such a. Such an intense situation during one of the world's largest wars. That's where my question was as, not as that long lost cousins, but as two individuals who are here in this world and made it as healthy adults because their parents went through a trauma. I was just, that was just curious. Everyone has.

[37:16] PAUL BARESEL: Well, I'll sum it up to you very quickly. It's none of my business. That's between Denise and her mother. And Denise. I'm not there to something like that. I'm not there to socialize. Hey, fine. That's good. We're not related. All right. At this stage in the game, she may not even remember who my father was, all right. Or anything like that. But listening to her mother, she said, well, this is what I'm going to try to do. And she did it. But no, as I said earlier, there are some things you don't ask. You learn to listen and be quiet and don't ask questions to respect the other person. Kind of an odd thing to say in Storycorps, but we just have a couple minutes left. Matt, I'm curious, what was the. What or when was the first time that you heard this story and what's.

[38:18] MATT ROBEDEE: Your relationship to it? Well, first of all, I heard the story is probably, I would say, good gosh, when did your father pass away? Because I would say it's like, oh, God. I'd say it was about two years after his father passed away.

[38:32] PAUL BARESEL: That's got to be at least 15 years.

[38:34] MATT ROBEDEE: Yeah. So I would say about twelve years ago. First time I heard.

[38:40] PAUL BARESEL: Yeah.

[38:41] MATT ROBEDEE: And not in such detail, though, until recently, when it's come up and we're discussed it.

[38:48] PAUL BARESEL: Is there anything else either of you.

[38:50] MATT ROBEDEE: Would like to share?

[38:54] PAUL BARESEL: No, not really, but I hope that the impression is the reality is that the atrocities that were done by the SS, by the Nazis, and how the tortured and murdered people really affected everyone over there. But it was an interesting thing because to see my father light up, you know, when he knew that Denise was alive. So when he was talking to me about some of his wartime experiences, they were a matter of fact, not emotion. But when Denise's daughter called, it changed all of that for him because she's alive. They were comrades. And I think that's the important thing is when you get into that relationships are important. All right. As for my mother, I can only say is that we never asked any questions as a kid, and I'm glad I didn't.

[40:18] MATT ROBEDEE: It.