Peggy Collinsmith and Caroline Sullivan

[00:03] PEGGY COLLINSMITH: Hi, my name is Peggy and today is August 11. I'm 63 years old. We're located in Green Bay, Wisconsin, and I'm here to interview my friend, sister Caroline Sullivan

[00:15] CAROLINE SULLIVAN: And I'm Caroline Sullivan a Cincinnati Dominican. I'm 79 years old. Today's date is August 11, 2023. We're in Green Bay, Wisconsin, and my partner to interview me is Peggy Collinsmith and she happens to be a friend.

[00:34] PEGGY COLLINSMITH: Awesome. Thank you. So we're going to start. Caroline tell me a little bit about your childhood. Where were you born?

[00:40] CAROLINE SULLIVAN: I was born in Scotland, and I was a twin. My twin brother died. And the good part about life, I think, was that I was pushed around or handed over to an extended family. And I wasn't really with my mother very much as I was growing up, and neither was I with my dad. I came to the United States when I was about 15 months, and I went back and forth from America to England five times before I was nine. When I was nine, I went to boarding school in England. My grandfather paid for my education, and I was there until I was 17. That was influential in my life because I got to stay with my grandparents as well as my aunt and uncle, and they had five children. And we actually are still very connected. And I look at them as my brothers and sisters. They don't look at me the same way, but that's okay. I also have four other sisters by a second marriage, two over here in the United States and two in Sweden. Again, that gives me a much broader base. When I was in boarding school, there were twelve. We were representing twelve different countries, and that was an exposure of different cultures, different ways of celebrating. But we didn't know that at the time. It was like, there's no difference. And we. The other thing about boarding school was you had five year olds all mixed up with 16 and 17 year olds. And so we were just like an extended family. There were 85 of us all together when I went there. And when I left, there were 115. So it was very individualized. That really formed me to always look at individualization. I had been taught that or told that I am taught. I think, that I wouldn't amount to much. No one expected much from me. And I lived that life until I was a junior in college. And when I went to college, I had a d minus average, and I was going to be chucked out. And I got a paperback that had an a plus on it. An a plus. I couldn't believe it. So I went up to the professor, and I said, did you give that to me because I'm a sister, or did you give that to me because it's a good paper? He looked at me, I said, sir, and I repeated the question. That day changed my life forever. So when was the paper? The paper was a theology paper, okay? And actually was intercommunion among all faiths and beliefs. And the most exciting part was that changed my life. And so, therefore, when I became a principal, when I became a teacher, it had to be individualization that led me, I think, too, to the idea of the bridge between, because I saw everything as equal. People, animals, all of life is connected. All life is divine. At least that's my belief. And so it needs to be treated with reverence. Nothing is more important than finding the goodness in a child, in an adult, giving them the same thing. Like, for example, I was interviewed once by a newspaper person, and I was really taken aback by the question. And the question was, do you treat an onion the way you treat a soul? And I said, yes. Now, I was 45 years old. That surprised me, but I realized I really believed that, and so I can't waste anything. And going back to England, we were on ration books until 1954. We'd stand in line to get sugar or butter or just the necessities. We never wasted anything. I remember coming over here again for a summer when I was about 15 or 16, and I saw somebody getting a steak, and it filled a plate, and out of my mouth I said, that's enough for a whole week to serve a family. We would have. When we were in boarding school, we would have meat cut so thinly that it would cross the plate so it looked like a lot, and heaps and heaps of vegetables. So it was like you treasured what you had. When I was with my aunt and uncle, we would go to bed, and we would have either an egg for supper or cereal. And I thought we were rich. And I'd go to my grandparents, and we'd have all these different things. My grandfather was on the board of directors for Johnnie Walker Whiskey and so. And that's how I ended up in Scotland. And my father came over from the United States, and he was serving there in the army Air Force, and my mother was driving taxi. But what happened with the distillery was they had the corporate offices in London, and at any moment, it was going to get bombed. And so they moved the corporate offices up to Kilmarnock in Scotland. And so that's why I was born where I was born, and yet I really own my inheritance of England. That plays so much in my life, I can't take that piece out of me. So as much as I am an american, I am grounded in my heritage, of being born where I was, and being brought up in England, that's made such a difference in my life.

[07:49] PEGGY COLLINSMITH: What do you miss the most about England?

[07:55] CAROLINE SULLIVAN: Sheep. Little lamblets. No. Little lamblets bleeding. I remember being in Scotland one day, and I was sitting on the hillside, and it was raining, and I heard these sheep in the background, and I call them sheeps. I love to call them sheeps. And they were bleating in the background, and tears are coming down my face. And I said, you know, I've seen so much beauty in life, but there's so much here, you can hardly hold it. And it's that earthiness that I am just. Earth is me. That's what England gives me, is earthiness, is preservation. If you're in London, you see flowers. You see everybody's got flowers and vegetables growing. It doesn't matter if you're in an apartment, you have vegetables growing, you have flowers. I had a cousin, and I still do, who had a pot of tomatoes, and she would follow the sun around her house. People in England are not disengaged from earth. Earth isn't disengaged from the human person. It's part and parcel. You see dogs come to church. You see dogs in pubs. It's not that they are lessen. When I was at the bridge, oh, you have the animals come to worship with you? Yes, I said, and they even lead us to worship. We would pray together, and we would have people from all different denominations and faith beliefs, and it was like, wow. But we would sit there with an everyday reading, not something from the holy book. Nothing's more holy than anything else. Remember, we would just take something from an everyday piece, read it together, have some music, turn it off, and be sitting there in the silence. And it brought us together as a community. We would sit around a table, we could talk about absolutely anything. Nothing was off limits. It wasn't like we were trying to change anybody. They weren't trying to change us, but we simply were together. One of the board members was asked by the greater Green Bay foundation, why do you support the bridge between? She said, it doesn't matter how anyone has lived their life, when they come down that gravel road, they're received for who they are. And I really try and do that. And as a sister, I'm friends with someone who is very left winged, and I'm very right winged. And people say, how can you do that? I said, I look for the commonality. You know, we all have the same kinds of needs. I mean, I talked to this lady this morning. She's my friend. But it was like, wow, but we're so different. Well, that's good, because it challenges me when I see something that's different or something that I don't like, it challenges me to live better, not to try and change that person, but to change me.

[11:44] PEGGY COLLINSMITH: How so?

[11:48] CAROLINE SULLIVAN: Well, politically, we could talk about things. So we'll just say, politically, if I don't like what's going on, that means I've got to be better. And how do I engage in a conversation with people who don't see life from my perspective? And so I was at a Greenleaf, at a D and G restaurant, and I overheard these people. There were three people behind me, and one person said to the other person, you know, I agree. I agree to disagree. So when I'm finished with my dinner, because I finished, I started sooner. I got up and I said, I want to commend you. I'm being able to talk with each other and not to have this great big. You got to see it my way. You know, you're wearing glasses. I'm wearing glasses. Do you want to wear mine? I don't want to wear yours because they don't fit right. And besides, your perspective is really important, and so is mine.

[13:00] PEGGY COLLINSMITH: Absolutely.

[13:01] CAROLINE SULLIVAN: And if we look at little people, what do they see when they go to church? They see people's butts. Well, isn't that a thrill? Yeah, you know, but that's what they see. So how do we help people to maybe change their view? That's what's important, is how do we change. How do we help people change their view or to stretch their view? I'm all about stretching the rubber band. Not breaking it, but stretching it. Not saying you have to do this, but planting seeds. And so I always go back to earth again. I'm a seed planter. I'm a connector. Bridge between. Bridge between what? Bridge between whatever you want it to be. Do I believe that God is somewhere else? No, God is here. Do I believe in heaven and hell? No. Except that I believe that it is here. We go through hell, and we have heavenly moments. But why should it? We're in a universe. A universe is complete. There's no out of a universe. It's all contained. And you look at all that we're finding out by looking at the planets and the stars and all of that, the cosmos, it's so vast. So what happens when we die? I believe that when we die, we just take on another form, because we are already stardust and ocean waters are part of us. So somehow that happened. And it wasn't just because I dumped myself into the Baltic Sea, which I've told my sisters and all their children, when I die, I want you to go into the Baltic Sea, because that is an ancient and laudable tradition. And I said, I don't care what season it is, all you have to do is go in, get all the way wet and come out.

[15:24] PEGGY COLLINSMITH: Hey, Caroline you talked. You mentioned the bridge between. So talk about what that is and how you started it.

[15:30] CAROLINE SULLIVAN: Well, I had a ten year pregnancy, and it was like I was being told, no, it's not going to happen. And I thought, yes, it is. I even thought I would have to leave my religious community. I mean, I was well willing to do that if I had to, because I felt as called to that as I did to being a sister. I didn't have to do that. But after ten years, finally we had the monies to get started. We were then told, you have three years probation. And I thought, oh, yeah, that means you don't think it's going to work. I'll show you how. So it was a place that, and notice I say, was a place. We were a place that welcomed people of all denominations and faith beliefs. We purchased an old farmhouse, 1909 silo, and broken down granary and broken down Barnsley. It was a place that was always becoming. There was a table, there was food. We had an organic garden, we had a dog, we had cats and llamas and ducks and geese and all of those creatures, great and small, and, of course, some chickens. It was all about presence. And there were times that were very hard, because my greatest gift and my greatest, I believe my greatest gift and my greatest weakness is the same. And that is I can ask when we really need something. I'm not able to do that when I. There are other people who need more. And how did I learn that? I learned it from when I had a period, my first period. And it was like I thought I was the only one that needed something. So I went to the store and there was one shelf, there were two shelves. There were three shelves of things that I could use just for me. I realized, no, there are so many people that hunger. There are so many people who hunger spiritually and physically and mentally. And this was the place that people could come and be received for who they were. And the creation, as my stepmother said to me, you don't have to do anything for this place. The place will do it for you. And I thought, yeah, it was a lot of work, but we made it look like it was really easy, and we didn't put on a facade. You simply received us as is, and we didn't say, oh, I apologize that we didn't dust on this occasion, or there's this going on. It was simply, we're always in process. And people liked that, and people saw that we were as vulnerable as they were. And they often would say, oh, so you belong to those sisters on the other side of Denmark. I said, no, I think they received about $23 million to do their job, and we're running on a very tight budget, and we don't know where the next penny is coming from. But we always had enough, just enough. But that made us edgy. That made us even with the people that were coming, whether they were rich or poor, we all have some place where we're just riding on the line. And really, those people who are rich, which we didn't have very many of, actually. But with the people who are rich, they're not as rich as they think. It was the poorer people who actually gave more proportionately because they knew what it was like to live on the edge. That was such a gift that we were able to be a part of something for 30 years, because I remember one year where we were going to go into the next year with ten to $12,000. We were going to be short, and it would be a deficit. And I said, God, what are you expecting from us? And I yelled and screamed, and that was that. I said, okay. So at the end of the day, I had gone to the mailbox, and there was a $10,000 check in the mail. And then I. Somebody called and said, do you know, we would like to give you some money, but we can't do it until September. I said, oh, that would be just fine. That would be fine. That would be great. So at the end of the day, I yelled. I didn't yell at God, exactly. I said, hey, God, you have to wait till the last four years of the fiscal year. Hey, get a life.

[21:29] PEGGY COLLINSMITH: Speaking of God.

[21:30] CAROLINE SULLIVAN: Yes.

[21:31] PEGGY COLLINSMITH: So there was a time in your life that you had a little bit of questioning of that connection?

[21:35] CAROLINE SULLIVAN: Well, the interesting part was, yes, in 1977, I wanted to leave the community, and someone said, you know, you might want to find a spiritual director. I didn't like this person at all, but I thought, okay, I better do that. So I was going to Oshkosh to be principal, co principal, and got there, found a spiritual director, and realized that it was a spiritual crisis and not a vocational crisis. However, I was told during that period of time I could do whatever I wanted as if I had left the community. So I'm on the golf course with some folks. They had some free playing time or something, and at some point I was borrowing people's clubs. I got a hole in one. So I found God on the golf course. Oh, and I got to tell you how I found God in the first place. I mean, I found God before that. But how I entered my religious community, it was through the telephone book.

[22:49] PEGGY COLLINSMITH: How's that?

[22:50] CAROLINE SULLIVAN: Because my dad was in Wausau. I had been working at the Continental Illinois bank in Chicago, and my uncle and aunt said, we don't think you're happy. I said, well, what I really wanted. I'm really being called to be a sister. Oh. My father said, oh, you're just going to try one more thing. Just one more thing. I give you three weeks. He was wrong. He was wrong about a lot of things. But anyway, he wanted three clones is what he wanted, but he didn't get it. I said, one of you is enough. Anyway, with the telephone book, here am I in the bathtub. He said, can I come in? I said, no. He said, I've looked up. There's only one lot of sisters in Wausau, which was untrue, but the only ones he could see were at St. Anne's in Wausau. So I heard him say to the sister on the other end, he didn't allow. I mean, here am I, 19 years old, and he's doing this for me. But that was the way he was. So anyway, he calls up and he says, my daughter wants to become a sister, and she isn't even holy. And at the other end, the sister said, we wouldn't want her if she was.

[24:08] PEGGY COLLINSMITH: So what's the difference between a sister and a nun?

[24:11] CAROLINE SULLIVAN: A nun is cloistered. So those sisters on the other side of Denmark are cloistered. They only have one sister who goes out among the public sisters intermingle among the people and our religious community, the Cincinnati Dominicans. We go where the work is, where less people would choose to go. We tried to go and work with the poor, and I really saw working with the poor is working with Mother Earth. And so we had that organic farm. Then we went from organic to just growing naturally because we couldn't afford all the paperwork and all of that. But, yes, I think at this point in our lives as a sister, the community is really looking at caring for earth. And how do we do that? And how do we help people to be more aware of their everyday living, and how does that affect what's going on in creation today? And I look at the legacy that all of us are, are sharing with the young people today and the future generations. It's, we should be ashamed of ourselves, absolutely ashamed. And yet people go on doing all the things that they choose to do. They don't. Somebody else can change. I'm not going to change. And that makes me very sad. Very, very sad. And sometimes angry. But sad is more than anger because I don't think anger does too much unless it gets you off your ass. Excuse me.

[26:01] PEGGY COLLINSMITH: Yeah. So what can churches and congregations do better? Because what?

[26:05] CAROLINE SULLIVAN: Oh, the Catholic Church is. I have no room for the catholic church. I mean, I know I'm supposed to, but I really don't. We've taught that women are not important around the world. We've taught that Catholic, Roman, I'm going to say Roman Catholic, Roman Catholics know everything. It's about abusiveness, it's about power and misuse of power. It's about fear. Nothing can grow in that environment. And people have repotted themselves, which I think is a healthy thing. I see life as only one church and we all have a place in that one church. I don't see it as a building. I see us as one big, large community. I even challenge our sisters to look at. We are one community with laypeople, with every person under the sun. Plus we are one with creation, and it goes back to this oneness. And we all have a part to play. And if we will just live the best we know how, not for our advantage, but for the community's advantage. Because I don't think what we do on this planet, it doesn't just affect the planet, it affects the cosmos. I have a nephew who's in Sweden and he's an astrophysicist or something like that. And he said, even what we think affects the universe. Even what we think affects the universe. Can you imagine how what people think and does that not resonate? And do not our animals pick up on that? Do not our plants pick up on that? They do and we think, oh, no, that was just my thought. It's not just our thought, it's our thought, the whole cosmic universe.

[28:24] PEGGY COLLINSMITH: So when you go around and do, because you're currently giving presentations to different places.

[28:28] CAROLINE SULLIVAN: A few, yes, a few.

[28:29] PEGGY COLLINSMITH: What kinds of topics do you talk.

[28:31] CAROLINE SULLIVAN: About, well, I'm supposed to do a motivational one in December. I'm going to talk. I'm going to go as a mad hatter.

[28:41] PEGGY COLLINSMITH: Okay.

[28:42] CAROLINE SULLIVAN: It's an advent tea party. And I'm going to get dressed up as a mad hatter and say, I'm late. I'm late for a very important date. And we're going to talk about the universe and earthiness, the things that people don't like to talk about. Politics will be in there, but it won't be. It won't say politics, but it's how do we come together? And they're not going to want to hear it, but I'll make it spicy enough that they won't even notice. At least they'll try.

[29:20] PEGGY COLLINSMITH: Perfect. Perfect. So what kinds of things, when you think of the bridge, make you smile the most? What kind of memories do you have then?

[29:29] CAROLINE SULLIVAN: Cockaleki soup, which happens to be a scottish soup. I served it one night. We had a fresh cock and we had some fava beans. They were very old, okay. Because I didn't want to waste anything. And so I put it together and after supper I went out to the barn to say goodnight to all the animals. And I thought, I'm really glad that I'm out here. This is a really good thing. So I came in and I said, diane, who's co worker, I said, diane, did you have trouble with supper tonight? She said, oh, I was so glad you were out in the barn. I said, okay. So the next day at lunchtime, the retreatants came in. There were three of them. There was a guy in the cottage and two in the silo. And I said, you know, I don't normally ask you about this, but I just wondered if you had any difficulty with supper last night. The guy said, oh, he said, I was afraid to light my fire. And the two that were in the silos, they said, we thought the silo would take off at any moment. Don't use fava beans with the skins on and make sure that they are not very, very, very old. So we. Yes, we had a few things like that. And then there was this wonderful lady that would say Clara, who would make the place sparkle. She said, eat that piece of pizza. Eat that up, because if you don't, it'll be in the soup.

[31:22] PEGGY COLLINSMITH: She knew you very well.

[31:23] CAROLINE SULLIVAN: Yes.

[31:25] PEGGY COLLINSMITH: So I'm still trying to think. So what foods do you miss from England?

[31:35] CAROLINE SULLIVAN: Well, I have marmite. I made sure I have marmite. That's a spread extract bovril. I miss very much.

[31:43] PEGGY COLLINSMITH: And what is bovril?

[31:44] CAROLINE SULLIVAN: That is a beef extract.

[31:47] PEGGY COLLINSMITH: Okay.

[31:47] CAROLINE SULLIVAN: And there's nothing like it. You have to grow up with it, and then you like it. The cheeses, if you think, you know, Wisconsin is supposed to be a cheese place. Doesn't come close. The cheeses are absolutely amazing. Fish. The ability to have fish all the time, lamb. Those are wonderful things. But I miss my family. I try to go over every two to three years. I have my two sisters in Sweden. I have two over here. But I am still very close to the ones that I grew up with. And so I miss them. And it's like I would like to have myself planted in both places. And fortunately, with messenger, I can still do things with them. But it's not the same as being physically present.

[32:51] PEGGY COLLINSMITH: Have they been here?

[32:52] CAROLINE SULLIVAN: No. These are folks that will never come over the ocean. I've always been the one that has to have gone one way or the other. Even when I was young, I was traveling by myself. My mother was. I didn't live with my mother. I didn't live with my father from when I was nine. And they didn't. They basically did not come to see me. My mother was in England for a whole year, and she saw me for a weekend. And my father came once. But those were the days, you know, and I've lived up. I've lived like topsy. Who would go from one place to another place? Would I change it? Would I change life at all? No. It gave me such a rich experience. So broad. I mean, much broader than any book could be.

[33:55] PEGGY COLLINSMITH: Do you think being raised in that boarding school with all the different nationalities made you appreciate that broadness that you. Every time that you ran across it?

[34:04] CAROLINE SULLIVAN: Yes. But just even with all the other things that have been taking place, that helped, too. My grandfather definitely was a major. I never realized how major, but he really was a major player. Because what he liked, because I liked him. Whatever he liked, I liked. And he was really broad minded. But it was just the exposure of all these different people. And I think being in a garden, they had a garden that was two acres. And it was garden and flower, herbaceous borders and vegetables. I hated gardening. I hated all of that stuff. But those were the very things, you know, whatever we sort of hate when, as a kid, we sort of take on as an adult, I think, many times. And so I wouldn't change any of that. None of it.

[35:02] PEGGY COLLINSMITH: Besides your grandpa, other mentors that you've had?

[35:05] CAROLINE SULLIVAN: My grandma Sullivan over here certainly was a mentor. My five year old, I call her a five year old kindergarten person. I was five years old, she wasn't. But over here, the apartment building, because I wasn't allowed to have anybody at my house. Nobody could come to my house. And so neighbors would, as a little kid before I was nine, would have me come over to their place. One did Easter eggs, one would take me places. It was like all these other people, mentors were just huge. And when I was in England with my grandparents, I ran away from home. And when I ran away from home, I went next door.

[35:51] PEGGY COLLINSMITH: What motivated you to run away from?

[35:53] CAROLINE SULLIVAN: Oh, my grandmother was an alcoholic. And then by that time my grandparents were younger than I am now, but probably in their middle sixties or someplace in there. And I was twelve years old, you know, didn't quite fit, but they did the best they could and I will never fault them for that. And then my aunt and uncle were absolutely terrific with me. My uncle, I remember shook telling me that my parents were divorced, and I learned about it. They were in 1951, they were divorced, still living together. And then later when I was twelve, I was told that they were divorced. So she, I mean, she played games, but she had, she really was mentally very sick, she being mom, my mother. Yeah. So.

[36:56] PEGGY COLLINSMITH: Mm hmm.

[36:58] CAROLINE SULLIVAN: And that was hard because I didn't trust her. I would never stay at her house, I would never have my back to her. I didn't, I absolutely did not trust her. And she was, I always thought she might do me in. I don't, she didn't want me. I don't think she didn't want me. And she loved men. And so my brother should have lived. At least this is my feeling, my brother should have lived. Either of us were to die. I should have, but that wasn't the way. Just a quick story about my mother. I wheeled her in at the nursing home and she put her head down and she looked up and she saw a guy. And then she did the same thing and saw a guy again. And then she looked at me and she said, you can go now. And so when she died, I wanted to say, this isn't my theology, but I wanted to say, oh, she knew she had arrived because she met a God who was male. So, yeah.

[38:14] PEGGY COLLINSMITH: So what kinds of things you've been doing since the bridge closed?

[38:17] CAROLINE SULLIVAN: Same as always. Teaching people how to garden more for less, making something smaller and creating more food and listening to spiritual direction, pastoral counseling, stretching people's systems, trying to work on Facebook, putting things that are creative and different and positive. When I see a lot of negativity.

[38:47] PEGGY COLLINSMITH: What kinds of things do you do for yourself each day?

[38:50] CAROLINE SULLIVAN: Eat? No, I still cook.

[38:54] PEGGY COLLINSMITH: And are you still cooking for your neighbors, too?

[38:58] CAROLINE SULLIVAN: Not anymore. No. Kids finally grew up and their lives changed, too. So just enjoying life, going out to eat and doing things when I want to do them and doing some writing. I like to write, and life just needs to be lived. And so I believe in earthiness, oneness, and the creation of all life is to be reverenced.

[39:33] PEGGY COLLINSMITH: I was going to ask you how and when you came up with your appreciation for Flora and fauna, but that was something that you've just seemed like you was part of who you were innate in everything that you did.

[39:46] CAROLINE SULLIVAN: It's a non thinker. It's absolutely.

[39:50] PEGGY COLLINSMITH: Yeah.

[39:50] CAROLINE SULLIVAN: It's part and parcel of who I am.

[39:52] PEGGY COLLINSMITH: Yeah. Anything that I didn't ask you that you want to share?

[39:55] CAROLINE SULLIVAN: I don't think so. I think I had the babbling of the mouth disease.

[39:59] PEGGY COLLINSMITH: I think you're awesome. I just want to thank you so much for coming out tonight or today and joining me and telling your story and sharing it with the world. I think it's something that needs to be done.

[40:11] CAROLINE SULLIVAN: And, Peggy thank you very much, too.

[40:14] PEGGY COLLINSMITH: Absolutely.

[40:15] CAROLINE SULLIVAN: Takes a good. Ask her to have someone listen.

[40:21] PEGGY COLLINSMITH: All right.