Philip Hayes and Dick Novotny

00:01 Hi, my name is Philip Hayes. I'm 72 years old. Today is Wednesday, October 27th, 2021. I'm speaking from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. And my partner is taking the botany. And my relationship is that he's my one small step conversation partner.

00:25 Dick.

00:27 Okay, my name is Dick Novotny. It's also October 27th here and my partner is still in already. Have forgotten his last name, Ojeda. Okay. I'm from Baltimore originally right now. I'm in Amarillo, Texas, married to stepchildren for step-grandchildren, for stuffed. Great-grandchildren have no family at new kids will bio.

01:00 It's pretty much yet. I forget if you wanted to add your age in there. That was something I wanted to ask you both is to just share with each other. You know, what made you interested in having a one small step conversation with someone that you don't know.

01:23 I did it because I can let the the country is very polarized right now and I wish it was awesome. And I was interested in having a constructive conversation with somebody who might have different views from me.

01:43 You said it perfectly. Well bill. I am tired of both sides.

01:52 Accusing the other side of doing something wrong and

02:00 Waiting for somebody to fix it. So I decided to jump in and see if I could do my small part, bring both sides a little closer together. Hopefully a lot closer together. Hopefully, after this conversation, the two of us will spread the word and get other acquaintance of ours to perhaps. Join in. Start somewhere.

02:25 And so the next thing I'm going to ask you both to do, you'll see in the chat. I sent both of your buyers. So Phil have you read dicks? Bio? And then, Jay coffee. Refills dial. Feel free to ask each other questions here. Curious about from what you wrote about yourself.

02:42 Okay, Dick's bio, says married retired with four great-grandchildren and the dog bone in Baltimore move to Texas in 1974. Currently living in Amarillo, Texas. What's 20 years in? The shipyard is a cust. The continents, including forecasting and Analysis spent 25 years, as a college professor tour business math and economics racing Catholic schools on walls, very active in sports. Need a lot of fiction and travel throughout Texas, New Mexico, and Colorado. Love to eat exercise almost everyday.

03:34 Okay, I'm going to read yours. I grew up in England, have lived in the US. Since I was 25, I work with computer, software vs. College research faculty, and then commercial retired. A couple of years ago been married forty-two years and have two grown children grew up Catholic, but now rarely attend church. I'm concerned with social justice and racial inequality. I think of myself as anti-racist.

04:06 Do you get fast? First question, when I flip a coin, Phil?

04:11 What? What? Go ahead and what moved you?

04:16 Grub Catholics are July. I'd moved away from the Catholic Church. What made you less interested in?

04:25 The Catholic Church.

04:31 I think.

04:35 They the it's it's a it's a hard question for me actually, but I think

04:44 It's.

04:46 Once the once always pedophilia stuff started coming out that push me further along the way but I guess it, it just became less relevant. It. It's it's a just just didn't seem connected with my life anymore. And I think I also became pretty agnostic from the point of view of belief in in God to it. And it just wasn't really fitting anymore. I understand in in most of that.

05:27 Affect me, also.

05:30 I was born and raised in Catholic schools went to Catholic school for nine years. Over time. I got tired of being told everything. I did was a sand and everybody is going to hell that's around the time. Probably at the end of high school. I decided to stop going to church. So mostly affected me. Greatly. Number one. The fact that happened number to it was basically ignored by the Catholic church that bother me more than anything. Exactly.

06:09 Okay. Well, we have a lot of common ground from Baltimore to Texas. And when you were young adult, 74 you say, and how you think that is? What what do you think that has made a difference to the way you view the world?

06:36 Yes, it has eyes.

06:40 Was an athlete in high school athlete in college.

06:47 Let's go back. My education in grade school. I got such a good education and Catholic grade school that I didn't have to work very hard in high school. Pretty much straight-up that did not serve me. Well, when I went to college, played soccer in college. The rest of my time was spent partying. We're hanging out with my friends. One tell school. After my first year had to get a job was 19, work, full-time. Got my degree at night, my brother and I work together at the shipyard did the same thing had the same jobs. I started my degree at night and accounting. My brother was a year behind me. So we both came through with accounting degrees through the University of Baltimore at the end of mine.

07:41 I was offered a transfer to our Beaumont Shipyard Beaumont, Texas. What the heck? Why not?

07:51 Baltimore.

07:53 Is kind of a stagnant place too many people. My age grew up, lived in the same neighborhood. Did the same things, went to the same pubs, in your case. I decided a change of scenery, might do me some good and it did. Once I moved to Texas, I decided very quickly that if I was going to fit in, I had to change my babe. So, I did it. I'm hyper still, I can control it. I don't always control. Moving to Texas. Gave me a new circle of friends, large, Circle, friends. Probably one of the biggest I've ever had.

08:40 In Texas, both work related, friends and sports-related friends. In Baltimore. I had basically school-related France.

08:51 I'm moving to Texas.

08:55 Did not change me immediately. I grew up in a democratic household Baltimore's, a democratic city has been forever. Nancy Pelosi. Grew up in Baltimore. Just Bentley. I just was expected to remain a Democrat for the rest of my life to Uniontown. As I got older educated in accounting and finance got into the real world. My values were more aligned with the conservative side and I'll just kind of landed there and stayed there. Not been pushed to the right, not a Centrist, but

09:35 I'm closer to Center than I am too far, right?

09:42 Interesting. I'm so you you were at the shipyard first and then we moved into into the college professor. I did wasn't an immediate transition. There were

09:59 From 1985 to 19.

10:04 97 I did. Other things started my own franchise business, in Houston, Texas at a few different accounting, type jobs. I could always get a job as an accountant because I kind of did accounting and I have an accounting degree turns out. I'm not that great an accountant. I'm more of a cost analyst forecaster advisor. So the accounting jobs did not work out for me or for them eventually landed in a teaching job by accident. It appeared. I always wanted to be a teacher by the way, we'll get into that later. It appeared. I thought I'll do this, which is been most of my life. We try this time to do something else. So I started there in 1997.

10:54 Got to enjoy it. It appears that I have left the building. Can you still see me? The, I can still see you? Okay, I cannot see you.

11:07 We could keep going. I can still see and hear you dick. So I think it should be. All right. Actually have a question for you that I think might be interesting. Hear me.

11:23 Now, will you let me continue how I got where I am unless you want to jump in here till dark. Go ahead. Okay? For the shipyard.

11:40 Was declining, not the shipyard itself, the shipbuilding business in our country. Back the last year. They moved me out of the planning department, where I did all the cost analysis, things move me into sales and during that year and a half. I got to spend time in England, Norway, Sweden, and Denmark. So I got to see from your side's what it's like over there.

12:12 That's pretty much it at the end of the shipyard. Now. I'll be quiet, which is very difficult for me at times, but its back on you, buddy.

12:22 Anything particular you want to hear about how I ended up where I am. Now, what made you leave England to come to the US? So it was, it was both a job and a woman, the, the job. I'm so I can, I was in England and then Scotland.

12:56 I did a master's degree and then I got a job at a reception situation Switzerland where I live about 2 years and when I started doing a PhD with a I called politic polytechnique federale de lausanne, and then I have to move so I was interested in in the US and you'll permit it was the place to be for computer software for you. And I'd also at the same time become involved with this American woman who is in Uganda, where I was at Switzerland, so instructor position of the University of Rochester, and then the relationship.

13:56 University of Rochester 78. We moved to the Pittsburgh area. I got a job at Carnegie Mellon University in Pittsburgh on does that for about 6 years. And then moved out. Commercial software, try to kind in the meantime and some fellow are retired in 2018 from IBM, who take walk-ins for before then?

14:36 So, now you go.

14:41 I was going to say that I grew up in a pretty, pretty humble household. I was fortunate enough to guess. I got a great education. I went University of Oxford and then the copper technique and

15:09 Yeah, it was a

15:14 It was actually all paid for Friday. Did the did the way things worked in England at the time. Was that some if you if you could get into University ends and maybe only only 15% of people could just it was, it was then covered you, you didn't have to pay anything.

15:36 I'm glad your gation. I thought you liked the school board paid for the University education. She usually count myself very very fortunate to have been kind of lifted up in that way by the the governmental assistance.

15:58 So I think that probably cuz my view somewhat, the government helping people, but mine was paid for by the companies. I worked for up through my Master's Degree. So you and I have different views on the support system for offering education now back to what you said earlier.

16:29 One of my most enjoyable times at the college in Borger, Texas was

16:36 Getting a handful of English golfers, you mention the fact that it's a little bit more difficult to get into University over there. We had a golf team. Our golf coach was very outgoing and could recruit pretty much anyone. He went to England fruited, a handful of the most entertaining, fun.

17:04 9 students in one of the reasons we got them is because they could not get into the university system over there. They were excellent golfers. So brought us good team. In addition. They brought us quite a bit of diversity up here in the middle of nowhere or so different from standard students. It was it was incredible to watch the interaction that they basically were.

17:34 Was watching Saturday Night Live. They were just so much fun. And so interesting had such wonderful accents as to you. It was great getting those kids over there along the same line are baseball players. Usually came from Cuba or Miami are basketball players primarily came from the East Coast. So our sports teams for bringing in the diversity into our area. That's primarily where it came from. Is great for our kids to see that I've plenty of it, living on the East Coast, but our kids, luckily had not seen much of that. Nothing is good enough to

18:20 On what you just said. I know that in your bio. You also wrote something, not this one, but it on your data sheet. You wrote something about not necessarily being interested in us Sports anymore. And that you wanted to be asked about it. Is that something you would want to talk about?

18:41 Philip Premier League football.

18:47 Well, I actually keep my attention to it or Bolton Wanderers. Actually, who are languishing in League, one, which is really the subdivision. And they, they, they were in the first division when I was when I was growing up, but it's Bolton. It is, is like 15 miles from Manchester, where the two Premier League games and it's also about 30 miles from. Yes. There's also other teams like in the, in the Premier League. Some I do still do that. Interest me. If I do still do soccer, referee, not going to soccer referee for quite a lot of years and I still get

19:47 Aaron's, I run around and blow my whistle good for you. Thank you for your service. I was actually a soccer coach. I've never done the ref ring part.

19:58 You probably yelled at people like me though, right? We're on soccer. By the way. I'm Tottenham fan has not having a good year. I can't believe they are still that high in the standings, as poorly as they've been playing a girl playing soccer. I was very good almost to the professional level. So I played after that.

20:31 Into my forties playing co-ed soccer. Took me awhile to

20:37 Bring myself. I had to bring my behavior down to play with the rest of the team turned out. It was one of the most fun things I ever did. The coaching. I did start of a 5 year old kids in Beaumont. They never had a soccer team before I moved there in 74, touch those kids till they were about 13 and decided.

21:06 13 year old boys. Not going to happen. So that's when I quit coaching enjoyed it thoroughly.

21:17 Not if I say I'm not a fan of Manchester City that's putting it. Mildly. I was big United fan back. When bun missile, Roy, and Percy were playing of change teams a few times. Love Liverpool win.

21:45 In this is what happens when you get Torres. Fernando Torres playing there have recently switch to Tottenham. One of the kids that we brought over from Europe, was from Newcastle upon time. His parents brought him over here had a little discussion with his parents.

22:07 Are golf. Coach was a good friend of mine. He said he wants to talk to his parents and convince them. Tell them that he's going to be okay here. It was kind of. It wasn't as grown-up as the rest of the British gifts old is his mom and dad look after. And why was he remained friends and still do with them?

22:30 Ward Newcastle shirt for a few years. They're not.

22:35 Is 4 down in the standings as The Wanderers with your athlete named, by the way?

22:43 I felt it with my soccer.

22:46 One interesting thing. I'm coming back to the subject of diversity with with little purple recently that our star player did. The Egyptian guy Saleh is Muslim. Yes, and that has been the subject of chance where the little pool finds? A think? If if, if this if this guy is Muslim and he can play this. Well, I'll be a Muslim to write that. Was like a chance. And sandwich is is like a plug for the benefit of sports and increasing diversity understanding.

23:31 Yes, I've noticed that on this side of the pond. So consider you as being across the pond diversity, on our side of the pond, I think in sports Hospital, been a little bit more.

23:47 In the opposite direction, they are part of the polarisation. In, in my mind, professional athletes are overpaid or appreciated and used their platform to

24:01 Not your night, but to further divide.

24:05 I just thinking of some incident in particular item player in particular. The first in particular was Colin Kaepernick, right? He came out against the USA. Basically. It's a little more complicated than that and then complained about his being banned from being.

24:33 Fired again, as a professional quarterback, I grew up in sports. He wasn't hard again because it wasn't good enough, but you said social platform to propel himself to become a famous personality. I don't appreciate him doing that. I didn't like it.

24:57 He did what he did, for his own personal reasons. I guess he went with.

25:04 Currently the US Women's National team is embroiled in the same sort of controversy. I loved the women's soccer team now that they've become in my mind, radically.

25:19 Proactive in.

25:24 And what to say this but it's social Equity, what they want is equal pay for equal performance and their baby. They're better than Wednesday. I give them that it has more to do with economics. Then with performance. In my mind. They're not generating the same Revenue. I can understand why they'd like, to get paid more, but you got to have a source for that Revenant. And I know it went off track here, but that's moving us into the political Arena where we had to eventually hit. So that's my thing about political.

26:04 Views. I disagree with.

26:07 Okay, so I think we probably disagree on the Colin Kaepernick saying I don't, I don't know what I read was. He was actually pretty decent quarterback and probably should have been hired just the on the merits of play, but I leave. I'll leave a defer to you on that.

26:36 I didn't see what he did as a rejection of the country or disrespect to the country. It was I saw it as something where he was, it was it was a thing that was this, a racial inequality thing which we can we can talk about whether it's weather is real or not. I believe it's real. And he, he did what he did to basically to draw attention to that as a form of protest, which is his right, of course, and then I think

27:28 I think it was Black Bolt good because of it on the women's soccer side.

27:37 You know, I don't know. I think there are commercial arguments that you can make up that you just did make, which says, it's in men's soccer, generates more money, more money than women soccer. But on the other hand, they have been for a long time. I love watching them. The leader of the team has become so politically Radioactive in my mind, kind of push me to not watching them anymore. I watch sports for sports, not for

28:22 Non-sports thinking they can have those thoughts. Do it on your own time. What do you think about the the racial inequality angle? What, what we did? Did Kaepernick have something to protest about whether you agree with the how we did it on.

28:43 I don't know. I can't get in his mind. It's not that. I was surprised when he did that.

28:53 Don't know if you can. I'd like to answer that question, but I don't know what was going on. In his mind. I can only guess that he felt. It was something he needed to do. What's like us getting together for this as a step toward.

29:12 Making things more.

29:15 Equal. Give him back. That's him. He did, he did. Well stepping out with no one else would, I guess my question is, do you think he has some? There was some reality behind his protists? Like, what was, was there any quality to protest against from your perspective for gym towards for? Don't know, let's say black people in this country in general.

29:48 Maybe there is still racism in our country. It's not.

29:54 As widespread as the media might make it. I have not seen much of it. You can grown up in Baltimore.

30:05 Yes, there is still racist behavior in our country. I would like for it to go away. It has gone away a lot, but it seems to fit up a roadblock there. Still some staunch race out there on the far, right?

30:27 Tell me with your experience, kind of growing up in England, and then living in the US.

30:33 What is your experience of racial inequality and and how have you come to learn and speak about it?

30:43 So growing up in England in the north of England.

30:49 I don't think I encountered like a black person and during my whole childhood. I don't remember how many black people moved in. So, I left Britain doors. There was an increasing number of immigrants from Pakistan and India, or did they can to make an impact on our? I remember this very clearly when I came across this young pocket book, Pakistani boy, Pakistani to send speaking at a local Boston accent. It would clearly grown up.

31:49 That was strange that to me, but it was towards the end of my time. In Britain started to be racial descent noticed. That's all, we all these. Pakistan is coming over here, taking our job.

32:14 It wasn't it didn't didn't really impact me off interact with me a lot. And when I came over here again, the my interaction with with, with black people or is that Hispanic people? Anybody not wife was very limited given the the circles I I moved in and honestly it still is I think my Consciousness was raised more recently by

32:54 The events around George Floyd and all that went down there. And I started doing a little more reading and a little more.

33:09 Listening to to, to some material. So it kind of material about the the systematic roots of racism. So I came to understand that racism is just about there being racist. Although that's a significant. That's that's the problem. When the, when the wrong, it's it can be built into the structure so that if you look at the practice of redlining work, where black people were systematically excluded from housing in certain areas because of the way that the the mortgage Market Works in all of that, that was clear, systematic, racism. The people involved might not have been aware that they were behaving in a racist way.

34:09 The effect was undeniably racist and 4444. Black farmers were much harder to get the pain for white promise, that, that kind of thing. So it's

34:30 What what it does is perpetuate this this situation where a portion of the population is excluded from from wealth accumulation on Rachel ground and it leads to these very unfortunate Scientist by societal inequalities that persist over generations. And I think until we fully Embrace that, we're not going to correct it.

35:08 I can't disagree with anything you're saying.

35:14 The George. Floyd incident was tragic terrible. Should not have happened, and probably started something that was going to be started eventually anyway, but I think there were too many people took advantage of that situation turned it into much, more than it should have turned into with the rioting, the burning diluting over here with the shame that that happened. And that was the that was the igniter for the whole thing.

35:48 Yeah, yeah, it's very important. I don't condone any of that happens when people feel ill just like, they don't have a proper way to express, what they, they need to, that can happen. If I don't condone it in any way, we're both sides of grid and no matter how far we are from Center, that should not have happened. Was terrible. It was bad at continue too long. It's escalated.

36:28 It couldn't be stopped at that point was like a locomotive got started steaming and there. It went alone. Most of the demonstrations were peaceful. I participated in a couple of very kind of pleasant events here in Pittsburgh while your people would just walking around and John think of a place with cool down stretches of cool. Everybody was cool.

36:56 Good. In this is herot where you and I disagree? I probably get my news from another source, but I saw the demonstrations and Chicago, Minneapolis, Seattle, and Portland, and they were decidedly not peaceful.

37:14 So we saw different sides of the equation. I know there were a lot of peaceful once I know a lot of the peaceful ones turned into something else. I would not be surprised if there were Educators placed. This may come across has a conspiracy theory, but I think there were agitators involved in escalating. A lot of these situations around the country and I'm glad it was like that in Pittsburgh. Well, I know things did get ugly but it was it was agree with you that it is people who are, you know?

38:00 Looking for a fight. Maybe aren't even that connected to the movement that they're normally demonstration for.

38:13 I have to question. I'm kind of curious about something that you just said, dick, that made me think you said we're probably getting our news from a different source, which which may be true. I think that's pretty, just honest and something. I was curious if you both would expand on is are their arguments or beliefs that people within your political viewpoints, hold frustrate you or that you don't feel as comfortable with.

38:42 Does that make sense? Or should I be of the people? I hang around with have very similar views that has to do with our particular part of Texas, and Texas as a whole. And even that group doesn't talk much in my mind, religion and politics are both very personal things.

39:08 Limited to family and a few Close Associates. Other than that other than now, with with Phil, again, we're not just across the pond, we both were at one time but we have diverse political views, we seem to get along. Okay, maybe we should do this more often. Send me some of your mates. Yeah. I mean, I I think I I get my news from from listen to NPR a lot and I subscribe to The Washington Post, subscribe to it. I get it free on my Kindle. So I'm with the read the headlines, not the stories, cuz I'm too cheap to pay for it. Plus the Washington Post.

40:08 I'm early because I get to comics from The Washington Post me. So I I I want to watch and listen to the BBC Asbury. Kind of fact, based. Its it in in in, in the middle, Washington Post has an opinion pieces, which are PVCs is is is very, very fact oriented. I think it's the closest thing to the BBC on the

41:00 American Media Spectrum, I don't listen to the more left-wing stuff from your post or the MSNBC, and I only don't listen to the right-wing stuff like that. So I tried to stay, stay back brace number Stanley, friends. We do have friends and we do

41:44 Talk politics with it. It's, it's

41:48 It's usually this besides everybody nodding along about our terrible. The other side is.

41:58 Now, you have one friend.

42:01 Tennis partner from Houston Texas. He is now lives in Paris. He and I have very different political views. He's on the left, probably halfway left-of-center, maybe closer to Center and we don't talk much politics. We throw something out there fairly quickly, please my wing

42:27 Partner is liberal is my only person that I hang out with even though we don't hang out physically. We've kept in touch for 30 years.

42:41 How to let me ask one political question, play election stealing narrative books, that's about these days.

43:03 I feel that.

43:05 There were too many opportunities to move the results of the election in certainty. State do know that they happened or not. I'm suspicious.

43:20 Front doors. I'll go with that suspicious. Got it. Got it.

43:28 Yeah, so are you like feeling in my feelings on that? Is that the, The Narrative is? It's a manufactured home from a stone right election results, but the incumbent did not like maybe watch the next big thing and it's, it's

43:53 While no doubt, the things of improper things does, does no credible evidence of any kind of

44:08 Over all manipulation or cheating, but wins on 222 of affected, the outcome of the election is court cases and none of them stuck in the been thrown out by judges including judges in the door appointed by Trump. The so overall it, if something had been going on.

44:42 How could it be that? There was no evidence of it has emerged as credible.

44:53 Now, let me ask you this backtrack away from the election. What do you think of all the

45:01 Suits and Peach 5 minutes suits, impeachment, impeachment claims against former President Trump where they ballot. Was there any evidence to support the reasons for?

45:17 Day two, impeachment. Trials with him in the seemingly constant.

45:24 Porsche to.

45:28 Not make him some succeeded to make him fail. Now. I truly believe that part of it. I agree with you on the election stuff, but I think there was a

45:41 Concerted attempt to

45:47 Make him less of a success that he could have been in office.

45:54 Right, I mean

45:57 Maybe that's I mean sunglasses maybe just politics like I'm ignoring you. I know this it the same thing, all that kind of stuff. I need to do something to investigate with the Ukraine. Rudy was doing things and was not phone call was no pretty questionable. So whether whether it was weather in marriages in the impeachment removal from office, I mean, like I think people can disagree on that I think.

46:43 Questionable things happened, pretty, I feel pretty good case to be made on that, and as far as far as the interaction home, oh my God, so that that, I mean,

47:07 That's just our ages from my point of view, on, whatever, whatever role from platonism. Seems like he's only encouraged that. That's I think that that was something that really needed to be answer.

47:28 And you not disagree greatly on that one and I choose not to pursue that any further. Don't you talk not long ago about there, not being any proof to the accusations about the election tampering. However, there didn't seem to me much proof to any of the claims that were made against President Trump. A lot of accusations proof.

48:06 So, what do you say about that?

48:09 I would say that the phone call with the Ukrainian president was pretty clear. I mean exactly what happened in that phone call and that was unknown to the gun made. It might have been smoking a little. You can see the bullets Maybe.

48:30 I want to ask with, let's just 2 minutes less than kind of Sir Ralph up. If there's anything that, you know, surprised you about each other through talking or anything. They just kind of reflecting on your conversations.

48:49 I was a little surprised that take agreed with me. So is open-minded. If I do a lot of the stuff that I brought up and that was very, very happy to see that.

49:06 On my side was surprised me the most as we talked and got to know each other as our upbringing was very similar. I've ruined an immigrant Community, second-generation immigrants available. If it had not been for my employer. I may not even have gone.

49:31 Reasonably well-educated.

49:34 But that's the surprise me know, black people growing up the first time. I heard Sidney Poitier Speak. Oh my god. Listen to that, but that's just not possible.

49:48 What are one of the biggest influences in my life? Was a black man?

49:53 They brought him in his playground director, in an all-white area. Nobody thought anything now that he turned out to be one of the biggest influences in my life right now.

50:10 I will stop the recording now, unless there's anything else you wanted to add that time, what to expect, you're a lot calmer than I am. So you helped my hyper level come down closer to you. And that's a good thing for both of us. Reasonably well-educated people, we can talk.

50:39 Politely rationally, logically, obviously, we're both logical. Rational people are are, here is a disagreement and they're going to stay that way. We can talk each other out of one small step.