Pilar McCloud and Matthew Billings

[00:03] PILAR MCCLOUD: My name is Pilar. I am 53 years old. Today is June 26, 2023. I am in the story corpse virtual recording booth, joining from New York City. Baby. And I am here with my one small step conversation partner, Matt.

[00:22] MATTHEW BILLINGS: Hey. Hey. My name is Matt. I am 48 years old. Today's date is June 26, 2023. I am in the StoryCorps virtual recording booth, joining from Providence, Rhode island. And I am here with my one small step conversation partner, Pilar.

[00:43] PILAR MCCLOUD: And now these two individuals will say each other's bios. My name is Matt Billings. I grew up in Vermont. Fantastic and supportive parents. One sister relocated to Connecticut, attended college in Rhode island. Have spent my entire career in nonprofit work, the last almost years as the deputy director of the children and youth cabinet, focusing on the intersection of race equality and clinical and behavioral health. How I know? Pilar co own a family business that sells antique vintage clothing. Two children, 14 and 16, and he got a dog named Ruby.

[01:33] MATTHEW BILLINGS: I am a 52 year old african american single parent and grandmother of one grandson. I am a woman who is disabled and the daughter of an army veteran. I am a kid. I am a kid. Take it to my mother, who is 87 with dementia, who resides in my home. And I am someone who fights for equal rights, civil rights, social justice, and I facilitate, through my own nonprofit, working with young people, and have done so for more than 16 years. I have lived in another country, and I have lived in other states.

[02:17] PILAR MCCLOUD: So what was your earliest memory of politics and what were impactful political moments in your life?

[02:30] MATTHEW BILLINGS: And this comes from a place of great privilege. So I acknowledge that to start with, that I am also the son of a combat veteran in the Vietnam war. And some of my earliest memories of politics, and this was in, I would say, probably like the early to mid eighties for me. And when I really started understanding what my parents believe in and their political view was very shaped from the Vietnam war. Right. And so just out of that, they carried those political leanings into my world, obviously. And so from my perspective, it was they were terrified that another draft could happen now that they have children, and they were making plans to leave the United States if they had to and go to Canada to avoid any of their children, myself, primarily, and my sister as well, who's just two years behind me to flee the United States if the draft ever came again. And the politics associated with that, we all know who was drafted. We all know what happened. We all know the race issues and the equality issues associated with that time in our country and that government and what was happening in war. But for me, that was some of my very. And I consider those politics. It's not one party or another, but that we've got a problem, and we had a problem. We still have a problem. We don't want that to happen again. So, Pilar, I quickly connected you as a child of a veteran as well, too. And for me, that shaped a lot of my earliest memories about politics. And that. That political. Those political moments for me, and understanding the role of war and what that is in terms of who fights and who doesn't fight. And what that means is those. Those were very early for me, even, I would say, before ten years old. So that was. Those were some of my earliest memories. And the trauma obviously associated my father as a combat veteran. So those, you know, all wrapped up together. So, Pilar, talk to me. What are some things that you, you know, what are some things that you remember early on as well?

[04:32] PILAR MCCLOUD: So I think I might have been less than ten, maybe eight. All I knew, Jimmy Carter was president. That's all I knew. And he had peanuts. I don't know why the peanuts stuck with me, but that was a big deal. And they used to call him peanut picking Jimmy. I don't really know why I remember that either, but that's all he was, all I knew. And I thought he was president forever. And then I was like, oh, you get another one. Wait a minute, I just got to know this one. And I remember living in New York City, living in Washington Heights, and Ed Koch was mayor. And Ed Koch was mayor for so long that I thought that's what you. You were just mayor until you just passed away. Because he was mayor for, like, forever. When he wasn't mayor anymore, I was like, oh, wait, what happened? He was mayor for, like, eight years.

[05:26] MATTHEW BILLINGS: Yeah.

[05:27] PILAR MCCLOUD: But that was. That was my earliest, like, recollection of politics. My father used to talk a lot about politics, mostly to my mother, who, you know, she was like, eh, take it or leave it. But my father was more like, he was into education, you know, religion, him and my mom. So you had to go, no matter what you did during the week, you were seeing Jesus on Sunday, and you better go. Cause if you didn't, all hell was gonna break loose. And it was education, it was religion, politics. But he focused mostly on. So you're a little black girl, and you need to know what that means for you. And everything about my life was kinda, when it came to my dad was shaped by that, how he interacted and what he showed me and what he took me in the things that I didn't know at ten, but what you figure out when you get older, you're like, oh, that was a big deal. Oh, this was important. Who knew?

[06:33] MATTHEW BILLINGS: Yeah. I don't know if it was for your training, Pilar, but I remember this moment when I walked into one of the. You do an immense job with us as a facilitator for some of the work we do. And I remember walking in and somebody was asking you about, like, when did. Who had the talk with you and who had. Right. And when did you have that talk? Right. And the talk wasn't about, like, I think, of the context to talk about when somebody talked to you about sex, but what they were talking about was, like, what it went. Who had the talk with you about being black and what that. And what that entailed. Right. And so the magnitude of that moment wasn't lost on me. Was that your father who had that? Is that. Was it ongoing? Was he the one who. Who you would consider most influential, or was he the one who. Who had that was. Was that the most influential conversation you had coming up? Or was there somebody else who played a big role in terms of influencing who you are today?

[07:25] PILAR MCCLOUD: So my parents had equal roles. I don't know how these people even met and got married. These people were like night and day. So my mother came from Plymouth, North Carolina. Rule Plymouth. It was my mother, my aunt, my uncle, my grandparents had three kids. My grandparents owned their land. They had a farm. They owned the land and the house next door. So they were. They were landlords. My grandfather had a store. He had a, like a candy store, a soda pop store or whatever. He had a barbershop. That was all in North Carolina.

[07:59] MATTHEW BILLINGS: That was in North Carolina.

[08:01] PILAR MCCLOUD: Plymouth, North Carolina. Yep. So that was my mother's upbringing. So she taught me one set of values, and her set of values were, you know, you work hard, you save your money for a rainy day. I don't know when it rained, but she was always saving for a rainy day. I was like, is it raining yet? No, not yet. And you always make sure that you have what you need, so you always have just enough, but you never have any excess. My father was a little different. He was a little different. My mother graduated high school. She came to New York. She learned how to be a dental assistant. Not by going to school, by basically what we would now call an apprenticeship. And she just went to a dental office. She watched, she learned. She had hands on experience, and that was her trade. Until she retired at 67. My father went to four different colleges, got four different degrees, joined the military, married my mother and he was all about education. Everybody was equal and go see Jesus. But my father's theory was, okay, so listen, you go to work, you make dollar 599 every week. When you come home, you spend dollar 590 on yourself because you earned it. You worry about the rest later, which combated my mother's save for a rainy day. So both of them taught me equal lessons about the talk. But my father went into depth with it. He was the one who said, you're a little black girl. And because you're a little black girl, you need to carry yourself this way, that way. You shouldn't do a, b, C and D. But let me show you the pride that you have or you should have in your culture and your community. So I had a cousin that danced to Alvin Nelly. I didn't know Alvin Neely was a big deal. I just knew she danced in this really big plate. But as I got older, I was like, oh, that was a big deal. I saw Adolf Caesar do a one man show in the village of a soldier story. My dad took me. I didn't know that was a big deal until later, when I got older. I saw earth the kid. I saw these people back then in New York City. You could see your celebrities in Manhattan like it was no big deal. It's not like it is, you know, now. So my father took me to all those places. We went to church every Sunday. My father took, my father took me to get my first manicure. My father took me to get a perm, which my mother did not like. But my father took me because he was like, as a young black woman, you need this, that and the third and my mothers, they both taught the same lesson in a different way because my mother grew up in the rural south. My father grew up in Perry, Florida. His experience was different. My grandfather was a sheriff in Perry, Florida. So he had, he came from law enforcement and military family. My mother came from, you shouldn't be out after dark because after dark was when the Klan would come. So you could, she had me in the house when the street, like sundown. But I didn't get that, you know, at twelve or 13. I figured that out as I got older. So both of them had the talk. They just had it in a different way.

[11:15] MATTHEW BILLINGS: Yeah, I think. I mean, I, listening to you tell it, tell the story, I think, you know, for me it's been about connecting to the past. So a lot of my stuff is connecting to the past, right? So I think about my grandmother who, who was born, you know, like, in. In 19, in the mid 1920s, who I knew who had very old parents, who she was born, you know, she was born where her parents were in their upper forties, which was really rare in the twenties. And so she was this connection to the 19th century, the 18 hundreds in what I was seeing in her, so that they were deeply connected to old ways with her. My dad is the first generation off the farm in Vermont, and so whenever I spent time there, it was like, you know, I go spend the month of July to cut and bale hay with the family. Like, that was awful. I knew I didn't want to do it, but no way. I'm not cut out for that. So that was a connection to the old ways. I really think, you know, for me, it's been those three folks, my grandmother and my parents, who, like you said, come at it from different directions. And I think because of my privilege, when I look back on this, there was no talk, right. Because. Because the world is built in a certain way, and nobody has to have a talk with me. And so, I mean, they have to have the talk about, like, acknowledging all this and walking your path in a very different way. But they didn't have that context, right? And so what I think they did well was prepare me on my journey. Right. So deeply within, you know, growing up in Vermont, our de facto state motto is, you need to live the, you know, let everyone live exactly the way they want to live. Right? There was no, there was. They might not be doing what you're doing, but it's important for us to everyone be able to live their own existence, right? And so that was a big part of my upbringing, and they just prepared me for lessons, right? They set. They set the foundation for me to learn as I went because they didn't have all the tools, right? They can't talk to me. You know, they talked to me about race and equality and things like that, but they had no great context. My dad had the best context when it came to that, by being in combat, right? Like, he understood the way people were treated. He's like, he's like, black folks, you know, when we're out, that's one thing, but in the rear, like, it's the same as it is in the United States. It's the same oppression that we see here. And they are defending our lives in one moment and in the next, they are exactly who they are in the United States, and they're treated the exact same way those things I reflect deeply, and I just think, from my perspective, it's always been about empathy. My mother is deeply empathetic. I'm deeply empathetic. And so I think they just laid the groundwork for me to learn well. Right. I just. I think that that's what they. And my journey, Pilar, is just endless. Right? So it's. They prepared the field for me to listen. And as I get older, I get better at that. And I just. From that perspective, I mean, they taught about work. They taught about care. They taught about. They talked about prioritizing those things. But really, they put the foundation down for me to be able to have talks like, you like this, right? So. And not be like, I ain't doing that. Or I'm defensive, or I'm gonna. You know, I'm gonna mask this. I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna be predictable as a white male. So I think that those three, for me, definitely, you know, taught the old ways, laid the groundwork. They told some important stories, but it was really about, you know, what they. The state that they left me in when I left them to learn on my own. And I think that's, you know, as I get older, I think that's what they gave me most, and that's what I appreciate the most.

[14:52] PILAR MCCLOUD: Right. Family is really very important. Family definitely lays the foundation for what we do and what we see. And I think because they lay the foundation, it's easy for us, as we get older, to use that foundation but build on it. So that's what I've tried to do. When I moved to Rhode Island, I was, like, floored and flabbergasted. I was like, wait a minute. Black young girls are not proud to be black young girls. Like, wait a minute. What are you talking about? Cabo Verde. What's that? Eight Verdean? Who are they? It was this whole different. And I didn't raise my son and daughter like that. My son is now 33, and my daughter is now 31. But I was so baffled that they didn't. They just didn't seem to be interested in learning about, really, who they were. And that's really what played the part in helping me start my nonprofit, because I was like, no, my daughter knows all of these things about herself and her culture and her history. Why don't you?

[15:53] MATTHEW BILLINGS: And.

[15:53] PILAR MCCLOUD: Or how come you don't. How come you just. You barely know surface information, and some of the stuff you know is not even accurate. Okay, well, let's do a deep dive. Let's go to the Schomburg museum in New York, and let's do some work and find out who we are, because you don't know where you're going if you never know who you are. And that was pretty much our first trip. And that's what I love about, I guess, the history of us. And I don't mean us as black people. I just mean us as people, period. Because we are multifaceted, and it unravels, and it unfolds to me almost like, I call it, like, tissue paper. It's so thin and it folds so easily, but when you unravel it, you're like, oh, look, there's, like, little nooks and crannies in between that you can look at that you never really paid attention to. So when the racial tensions come, I'm just. I'm. I don't even have words to describe it because I'm like, why do you feel that you should mistreat somebody else? I don't understand it. So by the time we had George Floyd and Breonna Taylor and I saw everybody in the whole world come together, I was like, right, bingo. There's hope yet. Do you still have both of your parents?

[17:09] MATTHEW BILLINGS: Do I? Do I. Is that what you said? Yeah, I do. I'm lucky Pilar. Like, they've gone through, like, major health stuff, but, like, they're still around and they're still active, and they're in their seventies now, so it's a whole new. You know, it's a whole new thing. And so, you know, I looked at your mom. I saw the note about your mother, too. And I can't. You know, I'm in the place of just starting to think about that. Like, what does that mean, to care for a parent? And you're obviously clearly in the middle of that amongst all the other things that you do. Right? And so I honor that immensely. I think it is on my mind. It is on my mind for sure.

[17:45] PILAR MCCLOUD: So, look, thank you.

[17:47] MATTHEW BILLINGS: Do you. No, go ahead. Go ahead. Sorry.

[17:50] PILAR MCCLOUD: I was gonna say caring for my mother had to be one of the, I guess, the best things I've ever done outside of me being a mother for myself. So to give her what she wanted, that was very important for me. So when she passed last August, I was like, although I miss her immensely, I'm still. I still struggle with her death. And I don't struggle with it because she's gone. I struggle with it because she wasn't sick when she left. So I was trying to figure out how she went from not being sick to being gone in less than 24 hours, I still can't wrap my head around how that occurred. And then my father passed in 2017, and it was almost like the same thing. How did he go from being healthy in rehab, two weeks at home, and now he's gone? I don't understand it. And his death certificate didn't make it any easier because what I was told and what the death certificate said did not match. So that gave me a whole Scooby doo mystery to unravel. And I was all up for the challenge for, like, three years. I was like, oh, we going to North Augusta, South Carolina, because we don't figure this out. I got questions, but I would say that if you are preparing, make provisions. I would not. My mother was in a nursing home, but I would not recommend it. I just. No one can care better for your parent than you can for me, at least.

[19:18] MATTHEW BILLINGS: I. I had the pr. I've been thinking about loss recently, and I've been very lucky. But my grandmother, who had leukemia when she passed away, and it's been 20 years now, 20 plus years. There was. She lived in Vermont independently up until her death, and. And I was visiting there with my sister, and my sister and I are. We're not a strange. We just are very different people. And I see her, but I don't see her. And we were both there this one weekend, and my grandmother got to. Got to transition on her own, you know, and she got to. We took her to the hospital. She wasn't, you know, she was sick. She wasn't telling anybody how sick she was. So I had to talk to them. Yeah. Yeah. So I had to talk to the doctor, and he's like, here's the reality. I mean, she was telling us all that she was going to get, like, fluids and stuff like that. And we. We were all, like, a little bit like, what is this? But we also weren't listening real good, you know, like, you just got to listen. And it was me and my sister, and I didn't want her to go. And my sister told me, my sister said to me, she's like, it's okay. She's ready, and it's. It's. It's time. And she passed, and I think she got to do it without her children around. I think she got to do it with grandkids around, you know, and I just. I listen to your stories, and I just have immense reaction to that, even though, you know, they're your parents, not your grandparents. But I just. Clearly, they still walk with you immensely. They're still right there. And I just think I, you know.

[20:50] PILAR MCCLOUD: Yes, my mother's cremated. She's right here.

[20:53] MATTHEW BILLINGS: Literally. Literally. But I just think the ability, you know, if you've got people carrying around you like, like your mother had with you, I don't think, you know, and I know it was fast. It just, he felt something, even with dementia, that she wouldn't have felt somewhere else. You know what I mean? So it's just. Yeah, I hear that. Hear that. And I just hear the deep history of your parents, too. It's not just one place. It's very diverse. And I also hear Pilar, like, of black wealth and I hear black success that, you know, that people had in the past as business owners, as economists, as all of these things that my folks created systems to ensure you couldn't retain that. Right. Literally blowing up. It's just like, you know, it's just, I hear those stories and your tissue paper analogy, and it's all, it's just very powerful. So I appreciate you sharing those things.

[21:42] PILAR MCCLOUD: Oh, thank you so much.

[21:44] MATTHEW BILLINGS: I just always feel when I, you know, when I hear, when I get that, you know, as I get older, it's like, when it comes to race and racism and all these, you know, these other quality issues, the ability for somebody like me, as a white male, to have insight in how you walk, that is treasure for me. Right? Like, I always feel like when you tell those stories, Pilar, when a person color tells those stories, I always say, like, there should be an atm that you should be able to walk around the corner and pick out. You paid to do that, right. Because that's, that is. There's a lot there, right? There should be a transactional nature for this thing. And because it's. It's me, it's treasure, right? Like, it helps me understand the context of engaging and talking to you. And. And it's not homogeneous. I get that. But those stories are not entirely dissimilar either. Right? Like, you don't speak for whole race, but there are a lot of commonalities that I think about. When I think about the first community I think about, I think about your networks, Pilar, because I can't walk. I can't walk into Providence without knowing people who know you, right? And so, like, in the networks that you've created and who you are and how strong you fight, Pilar, and what you do, you know, it's just, it's all, I'm just saying, that's. That's all treasure for me. So that historical context around your parents. I appreciate that a lot.

[23:06] PILAR MCCLOUD: Oh, thank you so much. I want to transition a little bit. So you have two kids?

[23:12] MATTHEW BILLINGS: I do have two, yeah. It's brutal.

[23:18] PILAR MCCLOUD: I'm here to tell you they don't get me better. I'm so sorry. No, I would love to tell you that once they become adults, you're like, yay. Once they become adults, you're like, oh, God.

[23:28] MATTHEW BILLINGS: Man. And it's just, and it's just all. Yeah. You know how it is. So, yes, I've got two teenagers. I absolutely do have two full teenagers, and I. And they're on it right now.

[23:43] PILAR MCCLOUD: How are they, like, are they, are they, like, the same? Are they different? Are they night and day? Do they mirror you? Their mom?

[23:51] MATTHEW BILLINGS: They're night and day. My daughter. I mean, even, like, physically, you know, our mom, you know, you know, her mom and I, their mom and I just. It was not a good. It's not a good. It was not a good relationship. And so. But I. I've got two incredibly different children who even look different. You know, one looks like me, my daughter looks like me. Poor daughter. And my son looks like his mother. You know, as a parent, you always are. Like, if you had a choice, right? Are you good in the house or are you good out the house? Right? So, like, if you're out in the world, are you treating people right? Are you doing the right thing? And in the house, you're going to be a nightmare, you know? And for me, they're not nightmares, but the light bulb comes on at different stages for them. My daughter's light bulb came out when she was ten years old. She wants it all. She works hard, and she's doing things she shouldn't have to do either. You know, she's just, she's responsible for a lot, picks up a lot of mess and handles a lot. And so I worry about that some. And my son, you know, he handles school, but that's about all he handles. He's got a little job than he does, but he needs to do more. And I struggle with the tension of just moving his ass along. Right. And getting him up and energized. These aren't, these aren't new things to you. I know I don't talk about my kids a lot because it, it circles into all sorts of different things that I don't talk about a lot and a lot of, like, things that I don't. I'm not proud of. And I, and that, that are hurtful at times. And I just thought I wanted to make sure that that got sent here when you were here because that's, I hadn't talked about with you either, so. But I love my children. I love them, obviously. They're fantastic. And it just, it's, yeah, it's, you know what it is. Raising teenagers is a thing to lear.

[25:44] PILAR MCCLOUD: It really is. And when you, when they get to the adult age, you know, once everybody, once everybody is, you know, 1821, my daughter, she was responsible. She was more like my mom. Save money. Save money. She actually helped take care of my mom. When my mom went through her cancer treatment, which proved my daughter into going into the medical field. My son, he, his light bulb been going till about 2324-2324 that's when he was like, oh, wait, my mother's been right the whole time. Let me get my life together because I am just blowing through money and turning up every weekend. And I don't know how sustainable that is. But with that being said, how do you, how do you set boundaries to keep yourself mentally healthy when, like, you get, like, exhausting news or when you're going through something, like, with your kids?

[26:41] MATTHEW BILLINGS: So I did say, and the reason why I put it in is because I do have a family business, and that allows, that allows me to stay, like, mentally productive. I feel like it's, first of all, it allows me to raise extra dollars to make sure I can do things for my kids. So it gives me a revenue source. I also pay my parents. We pay them for their work outside of that, so that it feeds a couple things so that in and of itself, keeps me busy and keeps my sort of head on. And I think from my perspective, it's like, I do feel in some cases that, like, what we can do here in Providence collectively gives me an outlet for a lot of this stuff as well, too. Like, there's things I can't control and there's things I can support and be part of a change. And so I feel like getting focused about Providence and some of the other spots that I work a lot in. And it's Miami or Memphis or other places that struggle differently. That's what I tend to do. I tend to, like, really start to really get in depth with some of that work because there are answers in that work as well, too. Around race, around justice, around violence, around the things that we see all the time. And I can't even imagine, Pilar, the news cycles and what you see, like, and how do you possibly, like, stay level and stay straight in the midst of all of that?

[28:10] PILAR MCCLOUD: I now know why teachers drink. But I. So for me, it was walking. Just putting on my music and just walking, walking until I got tired. There was no real purpose. It was twofold. It helped me stay focused. It was a way to work out, and it was also a way that I would be able to be creative in what I wanted to do with the nonprofit or in the community, based on what community members have said. But the new thing that I have found, I've become vegan again.

[28:49] MATTHEW BILLINGS: And I make you live 120 years old. Pilar, you're gonna be 120 and vegan, 150.

[28:56] PILAR MCCLOUD: Under 50. I became vegan because I have celiac disease. So I figured that it's better for me to be vegan than to try to do this gluten free thing, because everybody does not have gluten free options, and I just cannot take a chance with cross contamination. But being vegan, it's only been a couple of days, so give me a minute. But the other thing is yoga. Oh, I love a little yoga in the morning. I get up at these ungodly hours. I don't know why. And I get my little mat out, put up my blind. You know, the sun be coming up, and I sit there and I set my intentions for the day, do my little stretching, whatever I can get done, because I have a physical disability. And then sometimes I just sit there and just be quiet. And that to me is it's relaxing, it's calming. Sometimes I cry depending on what's on my mind or what's running through my mind. And because I travel back and forth, I go back and forth between New York and Rhode island. It's easy for me to do it at home in White Plains. It's a little harder when I get to Rhode island because everything is sometimes chaotic. But that's what keeps me kind of like, on my a game. And oddly enough, I like when shit pop off. Like, when things go horribly wrong. That is when I am at my best. Oddly enough, that's when I feel like I am like, okay, this is the thing you prepared for. So even with COVID when Covid happened, and prior to Covid, a sweet creation, we were going to close our doors. It had been 15 years. We didn't have anything to prove. And then Covid happened, and the students, we were all in a group chat, and they were like, so what are we going to do? Like, we've been doing this all our lives. Like, what are we going to do? Where are we going to go? I know people that need food. I know people that need supplies that, you know, so they had a plan, and I was like, oh, wow. All this stuff that I've been doing with them or we've been doing together, they've been preparing. So now here we are, shut, you know, shut in. And they were willing to go get groceries for senior citizens or pick up medications for people who couldn't go out. And what I found was we started delivering. We would put outside of the door. People could come pick it up. Good for people who had incontinence issues and couldn't get their supplies anymore, because at the time, my mother was alive, we were over in Silver Lake, and I was paranoid. So I always ordered way more for my mother because I was always afraid she'd run out. But who knew that me ordering more for her would actually turn out? And me giving packages to other people who needed it, who couldn't get it? So the joy of doing something for someone else is actually the thing that brings you the most joy.

[31:58] MATTHEW BILLINGS: Yeah. It's almost like when you're triaging a situation like you say you took, you jump in. Your instinct is to do something first, to support somebody like that. There could be all sorts of different conditions, but your first response is to take care of an individual. Right.

[32:16] PILAR MCCLOUD: Yeah.

[32:16] MATTHEW BILLINGS: And it's. That's. That's just a beautiful. I'm also listening to your practice, pilar, like your. So I. I work with some folks who are. Who are trying different practices. Like you are. Right. So, like, the short answer is, white folks call it, like, we call it mindfulness or we call it meditation, and we charge people for it, and we do all these things. But the practices that you're talking about are starting to emerge, whether it's walking, like. Like a concerted national walking effort or being in the water, because the water is so important to black folks and taken from them in so many ways. So do you really consider, like, your morning meditation, I'll call it. Right. You're on a yoga mat. You're doing yoga. You're meditating. Like, how important is that practice? Do you see that now and into the future? Is, like, holding that and is that part of what gets you through your day?

[33:07] PILAR MCCLOUD: So that is part of what gets me through my day. On the majority of the days, I have a significant other. I have a better half. He's a military vet, too, so clearly I have a type. He is from the south. Again, I have a type. And when him and I are together, we work out together, we do yoga together. He's more diligent. So he's like yoga. Like, he's on lesson seven. I'm on lesson one and two. I do something when I get on the mat, but whatever. I'm still in the beginning stages, but I feel like when I do that, I feel like I'm more focused for the day. I feel like I am paying attention, and it's a great way for me to listen to my body because I have a disability that's not visible. So I'm in chronic pain all the time. So when I do a stretch or. And I've incorporated Reiki in my plan, I love Reiki. I do. I do love Reiki. I'm not gonna give a plug for my. The person that does it. Cause we ain't doing shout outs right now. But. But I love Reiki. I love eating well. I love to cook. So I love those aspects, but all of that ties in together, and I pay attention to sleep. So, because of my disability, I have a hard time sleeping at night. So I do a lot of things to make sure that my. My bedroom and my bed in particular is hella comfortable, because I have to make sure I'm comfortable to get the right sleep. That also goes with your wind down routine at the end of the day, you know, that goes with, you know, what you watch before you go to bed. You know, what you shower with or take a bath with. Like, there's so many things. The pajamas you sleep in. Like, I am so entrenched in being comfortable, it's ridiculous. But I love it. And there is one thing that I left out. Don't laugh at me. That is very comforting to me. I found it comfortable after my mother passed. I love making charcuterie boards. I got, like, five different boards in my cabinet, all kind of different shapes. And I love shakur. I take pictures of it. I have brunches, lunches, dinners. I watch videos on how to do this thing.

[35:33] MATTHEW BILLINGS: Now you can do vegan charcuterie and just open up a whole.

[35:39] PILAR MCCLOUD: There is nothing better than running through trader Joe's trying to buy stuff for charcuterie. That just makes my day. Oh, my God.

[35:49] MATTHEW BILLINGS: There's definitely, I think, these threads of, like, self care pilar and how justice oriented self care is, right? Because I think the world tries to take things from people, right? It tries to, you know, it's a death by a thousand clocks, right? So you don't notice it necessarily always, like, right away, but, like, you look down and, oh, they've taken all these things, right? And it's just. It's food. It's sleep, it's meditation, it's peace. It's all these things that my world designed to ensure that you don't get right. And so I think the movement, the concerted movement, and I hope investment follows because this is hugely important. But I just, I hear all these strategies to take care of yourself because I always think about, well, what's, how I do. I think about how's Palau taking care of herself, let alone, you know, I just. I think about things like that for folks like you all the time. There's no doubt. And especially deep into the community, I'm like, they've got to continue this work. I mean, I think my question is, in all of this, you're taking care of yourself. So does that mean you. You're optimistic? Like, I mean, does that. Does that mean for you that you have a sense of optimism? Of. I mean, you talked about flash points, you talked about Brianna, and you talked about these flashpoints, but, like, hopefully it doesn't. Hopefully we can get to a place where we don't have to have murder being what brings us together. Right. Because murder happens all the time. Are you optimistic? Do you see things that make you feel. Feel optimistic at times in a world of where that's really challenging?

[37:27] PILAR MCCLOUD: I do see optimism. I have to keep optimism. If I don't, I'll probably drive myself insane. But I do see it because there are other. There are so many young people that have sprung up and sprung into action, and it's so many orgs everywhere that are into civil rights and social justice work and racial equity work and diversity equity and inclusion. And myself and the president of my nonprofit. We spend a lot of time in the state of Rhode island, but we spend a lot of time out of the state of Rhode island and to see it in other pockets and see how other people do it and take some of those best practices and perhaps bring them back to Rhode island. That gives me hope and encourages me because at some point, I'm probably. I'm not going to do this forever. At some point I'm going to stop. And if that man asked me to marry him, all bets are off. I am out. Y'all better get it while you can. I haven't taught you for 17 years. If you ain't learned nothing by now, I don't know what to tell you. But at some point I'm going to say I want to do something else. And we. I do have other things in mind that I would love to do. So at some point I'm going to, you know, the nonprofit is probably going to close down because I'm going to do something else, same realm, just in a different way.

[38:46] MATTHEW BILLINGS: So I keep more for you. More for you.

[38:51] PILAR MCCLOUD: Well, or more for. It'll be. I'm gearing it more towards black women and black youth. So that's kind of like my. But I do got a couple of, you know, me and my better half, we got a couple of business ventures we want to do. You know, we got some things we want to work out. You know, I might end up in Louisville, Kentucky, because that's where he is, and I'm okay with that. I've been to Kentucky. I like bourbon, so. But it's at the, at the end of the day when my phone never stops ringing or beeping for a text message because even when I'm sleeping, racial inequities don't stop. So myself and, you know, all the other people in the community that do the same type of work or are invested in community, we don't get any rest. There's no rest for us, not really. And even when you attempt to take rest, sometimes people still keep because their issues don't stop and their issue is important to them. So for them, they need that help right now. And if you are the person they're calling, they don't keep calling you no matter what. And there's nothing worse to me than getting a message after midnight. Nothing good. My mother was right. Nothing good happens after twelve minutes. Nothing. Especially in the summertime on a weekend. Nope. But I want to ask, how do you view yourself in all of this racial equity as a white man who has privilege. Yeah, that was a good one. I mean, that was up off the.

[40:29] MATTHEW BILLINGS: Top of my head. Let's do it. There's two things. So I want to be constantly. So I'm going to get into my rhetoric about expertise, right? So I'm going to start. I'm going to start at that point. So, people, you are polar, you are an expert of your own experiences, okay? And so that makes you an expert not just of your experiences, but other things. But you're an expert. Right? And so we don't treat expertise, your expertise, the same way we treat academic, white expertise or academic expertise as a whole. So I live in this world of like, evidence and I live in this world of implementation. And I think of this as how part of my intersection with race and culture and identity. I have to, I do two things. One, I need to be able to take money that people will give me as a white male that they don't give to other people. Put that where folks like you tell me to put it. Okay? So that's my first role, is to. If they won't. And there will be a day when people. When. When, Phil? When philanthropy. Okay? So when philanthropy says, I'm now investing in. In Pilar's expertise and not other expertise. So that day's not here yet. Pilar, you know, that's not here yet. And so right now, to fill that gap, I've got to take the money myself and put it where folks in the community who are experts tell me to put it. So that's my first role, is to. Is to invest, I will say, or take money and put it again where the community wants it. Not where I think it's best, but where you think it's. That's a bunch of our work right now, right. It's a primary driver for our work. So from that. From a clinical and behavioral health aspect, that's where I see my places. And so there's the money side and then there's the learning side. And so what I can do is I have access and pull and leverage to bring people together, right. And then step back. So within these conversations, it's. I can use resources to pay people what their value is, in a sense, because I want people to show up to do work that matters. Right. The community has told us to do, but they also need to be paid fair, treated. Right. And so. And then I step out of it. Right. And from the backside, I just continue to work, raise money, leverage money, invest in things that matter to other people that they say matters. Right. So I've got the work in Providence that that's essentially what I'm doing, right. And I've got a. I've got a new national team, Pilar, that I can check in with you offline, that it's a national race equity implementation team. And it's the same thing. It's folks from all corners, including here. And what we're doing with that is thinking about project programs and work, but putting race inequity at the top of the pyramid instead of down at the bottom as a result. Right. And so for me, it's about. It's about using what I've been given and worked for some, but given more than I've worked for and then putting. Putting those things where folks like you tell me to put them. And, Pilar, the challenges and we know each other. It's obvious on here, but before we wind down, you know, it's been absolutely critical to hear you push me and this organization into a place that you can stand by to some extent and say, you know what? This program is important. This program is important to me, Liz, is important to me and continue to challenge what we look like as a leadership of this organization and change what that looks like so that I can see your face and be like, you know what? It's a huge honor for me to know somebody like Pilar who can speak about this work and that it's not necessarily like the other ones. Right? And I just. That that rent you've put on me and pushed me towards has made a ton of. Has made all difference, and that's important work, and I appreciate you for that. So my place is to redefine that sense of what expertise and value looks like right from my place of privilege, and also to take money that people will give me way easier than they'll give you. And then put that money down where folks like you, Pilar, tell me to put it. Okay? Right. So that's where I see this work now. And it's coming, right? And it's coming, and the money continues to come, and our investment continues to be committed to what residents have told us are their priorities. So that. That's my work. That's where I see it right now. And just to be a good person, like, just stop arguing my end, stop being defensive, take a breath. And I just. I just. The last thing I'll say on this is just, you know, we know a dude named Roberto Gonzalez, and he is immensely. He speaks of you immensely. And I've known Roberto for ten years now. To have a body of work that I participate in, that exists and carries on is one thing, but to consider you and Roberto colleagues is. I'm immensely proud of that, Pilar. And so I thank you for all the push, Pilar. I thank you for the grind that you do, not just with me, but with other folks on a daily basis. You are absolutely seen. And I do. I think about what you do. I think about what you do all the time and how you stay well, all the time. So I appreciate that. And, Pilar, I think my question back to you is, what do you need more of? Like, what is it? What do you need more of? From people like me, for sure, but what do you need more of to make the fight just, you know, just a little less fighty and maybe a little bit more progress. Like, if you could choose a couple of things, what would they be?

[46:51] PILAR MCCLOUD: If I could choose a couple of things, and I want to thank you for all of that. That was touching. Almost make a chick want a cheddar fear. But if I can choose a couple of things, I would say, one, always financial. Without the money, you can't do anything. But two, believe black people just and believe black women specifically. If I tell you water is wet, I don't want you to argue with me about how water is not wet. It's wet. This is it. And when we tell you something now, we need the support, whether that support is physically being there, financially being there, whatever it means, because the thing needs to be done. And if the thing can't get done, then why are we here? What are we doing? And black women specifically, they. We received that. I've noticed lately, a lot of blatant disrespect, particularly from white men. White women, too. But white women are a little slicker when they do theirs. But white men, they get right to the point, right away, no doubt about it. They don't like you. And I don't know why. It's so visceral. I do not like the whole angry black woman thing. Am I angry? And if I'm angry, do I have a right to be angry? Like, something is not right here, so should I not be angry? And then if I'm angry, you don't get to tell me how my anger should look for you so that you can be comfortable. And that's what I would. I would say, for me, that would. That would help, because the struggle is real. But I think for black women, in my opinion, from what I've seen, the struggle is real for us a hundredfold, because there is no grace, given. The level of disrespect across the board is astonishing to me. And don't get me wrong. I don't. You know, I know black men sometimes, and black women sometimes don't respect other black men and black women, too. We'll work on that at the family reunion. But we need. We need our allies to be like, listen, we are here, and we got you. And we don't mind leading from the back and let you lead from the front, because clearly, you know, the thing that you need. But that. That would be what I would need for what I would suggest. But I would say, before we go, I want to thank you for taking the time out to have this conversation. I think it is amazing that we got to talk like this. I'm mad that the time went by so fast. Good Lord. This was a quick conversation. I thank you so much for sharing some of your life story. And some of your family history. Of course I didn't know any of those things. So thank you so much. I appreciate it. And I appreciate the time because time is valuable.

[49:48] MATTHEW BILLINGS: I do too. And I appreciate you, Pilar. I appreciate for literally every day you step into the community and you push and you grind and you push and you grind and you push and you grind. And some days yes, and some days no. And you just need to know that you and folks like you are on my mind a lot. A lot. And the least we can do is, you know, it's easy to pay somebody fair. But it's also what you're saying about just trust us. Like, that's your herd blog. You're heard and you're. And I agree with all of it and you're heard. Okay? And so that's work for me.

[50:24] PILAR MCCLOUD: Thank you both for your conversation today.