Precious Smith and Lacey Wheeler

[00:01] PRECIOUS SMITH: I am 39 years old. Today is November 5, 2020. I live in Wichita, Kansas, and my partner's name is Lacey, and she is my one small step partner.

[00:17] LACEY WHEELER: My name is Lacey Wheeler and I am 34. And today is November 5th, and I am in Marquette, Kansas, and my partner's name is Precious, and she is my one small step partner.

[00:35] PRECIOUS SMITH: And, Lacey, why did you want to do this interview today?

[00:41] LACEY WHEELER: Well, I wanted to do this interview because I find that my circles are fairly small and they all look alike. And I was really trying to find a way to connect with somebody that maybe has walked a different journey of life than I have. So I randomly heard this on the radio one day and I was like going for it. So that was kind of how I got here.

[01:11] SPEAKER C: Lacey, will you ask that question back to your partner?

[01:15] LACEY WHEELER: Yes. Sorry. So, Precious, why did you want to do this interview today?

[01:20] PRECIOUS SMITH: Well, over the summer, there was so much going on. Everything was so negative and it was just awful. And I was on Facebook scrolling one day and it was like, hey, you want to. You want to meet some interesting people? You want to have an interesting conversation with someone different from you? I was like, heck, yeah. So I was like, I'll just fill it out and see what happens. So it sounded fun. All right, so I am going to read your bio. I am currently a United Methodist pastor who grew up in a very conservative Baptist home. Since then, I have become more liberal in my faith understanding and am seeking ways to broaden my understanding and listen to more voices and experiences of people of color. I currently live in a very small town, mostly white and conservative. I'm looking forward to listening to someone else's life experience which differs from mine.

[02:28] SPEAKER C: And what about the bio? Would you like to know a little bit more about Precious?

[02:33] PRECIOUS SMITH: Well, I will say this. When I read your bio, it instantly said to me, like, when I saw you were a minister, it. You know, when you get the minister vibe, you kind of get like an impression of, okay, this is what we're working with. All right, so I love the fact that you are a minister, but when I look at you and I see you, there's nothing, you know, you don't appear ministerial, if you will, if that's a thing. So that's awesome. And let's see, you said you're in a very small town, mostly white and conservative. Like, how is that. How does that work? Because you don't appear to me as the typical white and conservative. So how does that work for you?

[03:26] LACEY WHEELER: Yeah, it's a small town. It's like 600 people, and we just moved here in July. And so it has definitely been a learning curve for me. And because I think because I grew up in a conservative home, those kinds of ways of thinking is not. It's not foreign to me. And so it's, you know, the stuff that I'm hearing, I'm like, okay, I've. I've heard that. And, you know, I know where that's coming from. So it's been. It's been interesting, for sure. I often feel alone in my political and even sometimes my faith, you know, understandings, because this is a very different community than. Yeah. Than I would probably gravitate toward normally. So it's been very interesting. Yeah. Okay. Precious. So I'm going to read your bio. Okay. I am a member of the LGBTQ you to plus community. I have children and enjoy learning new things. I have several Ms. Degrees and teach children. I'm an advocate for all people and human rights. That is awesome. I read this and I was. I was super excited because I was like, oh, she sounds like an amazing person. I want to talk to her. So this is great. So I'm so curious about. There's a lot of things I'm curious about how. Let's see. Okay, so let's start with your. What are your degrees? What did you study?

[05:09] PRECIOUS SMITH: Okay, so my bachelor's is in psychology. I have a master's in counseling. I also have a master's in special education.

[05:16] LACEY WHEELER: Nice. And so do you use all of that in working with children now?

[05:22] PRECIOUS SMITH: No. It helps, though. But it does help. I teach special education at middle school, so it's definitely helpful to have the counseling and the psychology.

[05:33] LACEY WHEELER: Yeah, I can imagine. Okay. And I'm curious about your experience in the LGBTQ2+ community. So has that been. How has that been for you?

[05:46] PRECIOUS SMITH: Oh, gosh, it was so funny. I had this conversation the other day. Being LGBTQ2 + and black, it's hard because it's like, I do well in the LGBTQ2+ community as long as it's predominantly white. But in the black community, it is not okay to be LGBTQ2 + and black. It's like, I can go and represent all of the black things, but I can't represent any of the other things that are in my life, in my own community.

[06:24] LACEY WHEELER: Wow. Wow. So have you. Have you experienced kind of. Do you feel like there's a divide almost inside yourself, like identity wise or how is always.

[06:38] PRECIOUS SMITH: There's. There's always it. It's always interesting when it's okay to bring. It's okay to bring your black self and it's okay to bring your gay self, but it's not okay to bring them both into separate environments at one time. And it's really weird. Like, I was on a community discussion and we were talking and, you know, someone brought up the fact that we have programs for boys and girls. I was like, well, what about individuals who are non binary or who are genderqueer who don't identify as boys or girls? What are we doing for them? They were like, why do we have to. Why do we have to have something for them too? I was like, okay.

[07:16] SPEAKER C: Yeah.

[07:17] PRECIOUS SMITH: So I was like, because they exist and it's very necessary. So it's just kind of. It. It's frustrating more than anything else. And it really depends on the location. And being in the Midwest, people are always like, well, the Midwest is more progressive than the South. And I'm like, sometimes. But in this good Bible belt that we're in, no, they're not. Who has been the most influential person in your life? What did they teach you?

[07:54] LACEY WHEELER: The most influential person in my life has got to be my mom. And I always cry when I talk about my mom because she's just one of my most influential people. She has the biggest heart of anyone I've ever met and she has compassion for all people. And you know, of course I grew up in a conservative home, but for her it didn't ever matter. Sorry, precious. For her it didn't matter, you know, who the person was. I mean, if her heart reached out to somebody, she was going to help them and she was going to walk alongside them. And so I just. She has taught me how to live with my heart and my passion. So that has. She's been very influential for me. Oh yeah. You know, it's okay mine through the.

[08:50] PRECIOUS SMITH: Pages.

[08:53] LACEY WHEELER: But what about you? Who has been the most influential person in your life and what did they teach you?

[09:01] PRECIOUS SMITH: Let's see. My grandma. My grandma was like the most amazing woman ever. She was like 4 foot 11, 110 pounds soaking wet. And I mean, she was a spitfire. Like, you know, she taught me three things, main three things. First thing was, it doesn't matter what they call you, it's what you answer to. The second thing was like, nobody likes a lazy person. Get off your butt and do what you need to do. And the last was always represent yourself in every space you go into. Everywhere you go, be you. Don't change who you are for anybody else. And I have taken that with me my whole life.

[09:47] LACEY WHEELER: That's awesome.

[09:50] SPEAKER C: I would like to know how that plays, you know, precious. Like that. The teaching of being yourself, taking yourself everywhere you go, how much that weighs on you or how much that has affected these two worlds that you talked about earlier, kind of wrestling between and representing yourself within. Do you think of your grandma in those moments?

[10:19] PRECIOUS SMITH: Every time? All the time. Because, like, my grandma, like, my grandma was an old, like old school southern church lady. Like, and when I came out, you know, my grandma was like, you changed who you are. I was like, I don't think so. I was like, no. She was like, well, all right. And from that point it was okay. So I'm like, if my grandmother who was like, I think she was like 65, 70 at the time, if she can accept me coming out, I don't really care who else feels, however. So I'm going to be me all the time. And sometimes it's like, it's really hard, but I think about it and it's like, you know, it's better that representation is important. So, you know that little 12 year old kid that's like, I can't be myself. You know, they look at me and they're like, wait, wait. Oh, you, oh, you're dating someone who's the same sex as you. I can do that in public and be okay. And I'm like, yeah. So it's like that representation is so important. So I try to, I try to live it. I try to represent everywhere I go. Ooh. Could you briefly describe in your own words your personal political views?

[11:42] LACEY WHEELER: Okay, so this has been for me, I am not where I was years and years ago. I grew up in a very Republican home and I would say I'm more in the center now. I think I lean Democratic. And I was sharing with Sarah the other day that I took a quiz on online the other day and it said I was libertarian. So I'm not really sure where I'm at, but I know I care about people and, you know, I want to fight for people who are, who are being oppressed and are on the margins and, you know, whatever that looks like. So, yeah, so I'm still kind of working through all that and figuring out where I land. I don't love. I don't love being pigeonholed into one or the other. And so I kind of feel fluid in that. But yeah, so I'm still kind of working that out.

[12:46] PRECIOUS SMITH: Gotcha. What are the hot button issues for you?

[12:54] LACEY WHEELER: That's a great question. Recently and I. And I don't know how much of this stems from family conversation or just where I. Where I grew up, but mistreatment of really, anybody really gets me. Gets me fired up and causes me to lose my cool a little bit. I think just any time that I, you know, somebody is. Is being mistreated or not, not having fair treatment just really is difficult for me to understand why. Why we treat people differently depending on whatever it is, you know, whether it's based on sexuality or gender or. Or race. It doesn't. It doesn't matter what the thing is, just that, you know, when we. When we treat people unfairly, it's. It's hard for. It's hard for my heart to take. So that's a. That would be one for me. Okay. Precious, could you briefly describe in your own words, your personal political values?

[14:20] PRECIOUS SMITH: Yeah. So I am. Honestly. I identify as Democratic only because, you know, in the current climate, it was either Republican or Democratic for me, because that's. Those were the two main parties that were on the ballot. So I wanted my vote to be important and to count, of course. So Democratic it was. And, you know, like, honestly, like, this year in this election, this was the first time that I remember my mom actually voting. Part of that was because I got on her last nerve. But, I mean, it was just. I felt like it was that important. And, like, for me, I just. Any. Any group that. Any group, to me, that represents divisiveness and is okay with there being this racial divide or being an economic divide or anything like that, I just can't get behind it. So, like. And definitely what you said, fair treatment. I am an advocate for everything fair in life. So it's like, no, I can't. I can't deal with. I can't deal with people being mistreated either, which is part of the reason that I teach special education, because, like, I am all about advocating for those who can't advocate for themselves.

[15:49] LACEY WHEELER: That's beautiful. Yeah. So what are your hot button issues, then, for you?

[15:56] PRECIOUS SMITH: Ooh, hot buttons. My most recent. The biggest hot button that I have is, of course, racism, of course. And then police brutality is one of my major hot buttons. And then just LGBTQ2 plus rights is huge because at this point, you know, right now, there's the civil rights. They're not the civil rights case, but the case where they're trying to overturn the case that gave LGBTQ2 plus the right to marry. So, you know, that's my biggie right now. Like Jeopardy. The Jeopardy Song.

[16:50] SPEAKER C: Let me put A couple more options in here. These are optional. If you guys want to start taking it in other directions, you're welcome to. But these are some really good questions.

[17:02] PRECIOUS SMITH: Ah, okay. Okay. So do you ever feel misunderstood by people with different beliefs than you, example. By people from the other side of the aisle and how. So.

[17:19] LACEY WHEELER: I would say yes. I. And I. I think I feel misunderstood often by more conservative circles and maybe the more Republican side. And when I. When I have felt that way, it's. It's often because they have seen something in the media or they have read something that makes them think that because I am, Eileen, more Democratic or more on the left than they, that they just kind of lump me into whatever it is that whatever conspiracy they think that is going on at the time. And so I. I feel there's a lot of, like, being talked at in those conversations opposed to being talked with. And so it doesn't seem that there's ever a great moment to be understood because it's just mainly one person talking at me with their perception, really, of what they think I believe. Yeah. Which is also another reason that I was really excited about this conversation, because it feels like this is set up really well, that we can really listen to one another and speak together. So, yeah, I think when I have experienced that, it has just been more from the conservative side, and it's been because they're hearing a message that is very general and very. Feels very skewed and. And then it gets kind of layered on to myself. So. Yeah.

[19:12] PRECIOUS SMITH: Even with that, like, do you feel like. Like being that you're a minister, that has to be hard. That, like, I mean, are you a minister at a church or do you have, like, a congregation? Or how does that work?

[19:29] LACEY WHEELER: Yeah, I am. I'm a minister at a church here in Marquette. And, yeah, it. It can be hard because as a. As a pastor, I mean, my. My job is to listen, and my job is to support and encourage. And it can be hard because I hear. I hear people's very strong narrative about certain people that I happen to fit into that. That mold or those people that they're talking about, you know, and so it can be. It can be hard, but I. I have to remember that in those situations that I really am there to listen and to. As much as I can express God's love and grace. But, yeah, in the meantime, it can be painful, for sure.

[20:24] PRECIOUS SMITH: How do you decompress from that? What do you do for yourself to get you to a point where it's like, okay, they're talking at me, they're not talking about me. So how do you handle it?

[20:40] LACEY WHEELER: You remind me of. There's this thing on Parks and Recreation where Leslie Knope is talking and she says when people are like yelling at her, upset, she says, I just remember they're caring very loudly at me. And I keep that with me because I think they're not, I really do have to separate. Like, they are not talking about me personally. They have not asked me any personal questions about this. And it, it takes, I mean, it takes a while to get into a different frame of mind of like not feeling attacked by that because there have been times that people have said stuff to me and I walk away going, do they even know what they just said? Like, do they even know how hurtful that was? But yeah, so for me, I think reminding myself that they're not, they're not meaning to be very. Being personal toward me about it. They're not meaning to like, talk down to me and also to have support group, you know, support systems, family, friends that I can decompress with and chat with. And I'm currently still in seminary, so I have a great group of students that are going through seminary with me that I, I will often talk with them about, like, hey, this happened today, and kind of process it. That's always helpful. So. Yeah. Okay. Do you feel misunderstood by people with different beliefs than you?

[22:18] PRECIOUS SMITH: Well, I, honestly, I, I don't know because, like, I surround myself often with very like minded people. Like, I'm a member, I have a, I'm a member of an LGBTQ2+ sorority. So, you know, oftentimes if I have any, anything going on, I'll reach out with my sororis. And other than that, I'm really, I'm really kind of, believe it or not, I'm really kind of introverted and I prefer like just to be in my own little bubble and in my own little space. And it's like I come out of my bubble and out of my space, you know, I do things and then I go back to my bubble. So I try not to like, I have this thing where I like, internalize a lot. So since I know that I'm an internalizer, I try not to allow those types of energy into my space because I don't want to have to, I don't want to have to get into a position where I have to fight or flight, if you will. I don't want to get into that space because it could happen and I just would rather it not. So I Don't know.

[23:30] SPEAKER C: How about that second question, Lacey, for Precious. I think that might be an interesting one, too, to ask her.

[23:39] LACEY WHEELER: Do you ever feel troubled by people with the same beliefs as you? For example, people from your own side of the aisle and how they communicate those beliefs? Others?

[23:51] PRECIOUS SMITH: Absolutely. I really do. Like, I'm really a huge advocate for our LGBTQ2 + community. And at the same time, as an advocate, you know, there are protocols and procedures that you have to go through so that you can get things accomplished. There are ways that you have to go about things. And it just. It burns my butter when, like, first of all, I understand you can complain about what you're going through because it's not changing. I understand that by all means. But what bothers me is those people who go on these crazy Facebook rant, but then turn around and, like, marginalize their own community. So it's like, it's like in the LGBTQ2 plus world, it's like, okay, so, so, yeah, you're lesbian and you're dominant, but you don't look masculine enough. Or you're feminine and you're lesbian, but you don't look quite feminine enough, or, you know, you don't quite fit the mold that we have with our heteronormative ideas. You don't fit that mold, and you don't fit that role. So I can't mesh with you, or you can't be part of my crew, or you can't hang out with me because you don't fit my mold. And that's a problem for me. That bothers me because I'm like, you know, whatever you say you are, if you decide today you want to be a mailbox, you're a mailbox. Do your thing. And I'm just like, you can't. I hate when people bring in their heteronormative ideas into a non heteronormative world and then get upset because people don't fit into the ideas and the molds that they've selected or created in their minds for other people. And I'm like, how dare you? You can't do that. You can't make somebody fit into your mold because that's the mold that you're comfortable in. Stop it. So that's my. I have those debates often.

[25:54] LACEY WHEELER: How do they go?

[25:56] PRECIOUS SMITH: Oh, they never go well. They. They. No, they never go well because people, you know, I found that people are very close minded. And one thing that I often like, after going back and forth maybe two or three times, my next question is always so we're having this conversation now. Are we having this conversation because you just feel like you want to converse, or are we having this conversation because you are wanting to get information so that you can make a better decision than the one that you're making? So generally those answers are, well, I just wanted to converse. Okay, so we're done here. We're going to agree to disagree, and we're going to move forward. And it's just. It's hard. Especially again, in the black community. They. Man, it's. It's like, for the longest time, I think black people were the major minority. Right. So black people were the minority, and they were okay with that. But then there came another group which was black and gay, which is even more of a minority than the major minority, and that just didn't work out. And it's like, it's that constant. It's a constant just thing. So you just. It's hard.

[27:18] LACEY WHEELER: I had never thought of that before. The. I mean, it's almost like an identity shift, too, within the black community that now there's this other group that. Yeah. Wow.

[27:33] PRECIOUS SMITH: Well, what subjects do you find hard to talk about in the normal world?

[27:40] LACEY WHEELER: The election. Can I say that? Yeah. Just. I find it hard to talk about politics because it's so heated and people are just so tense, and even with best intentions to have a conversation about something, it can go sideways real fast. And even. Even recently, talking about masks, I mean, in our small community, just, you know, just talking about whether somebody is wearing a mask or not can, like, ignite fire. And I just. It's just kind of crazy. So. Yeah, so those are a couple of the. I think just politics. And anything that has a political charge is hard because I like. I like for people to get along, and I like for people to be able to, like, have, you know, feel good about the conversation. And. And when it's stuff like that, it's just people can get mean and. Yeah, it's not great.

[28:51] PRECIOUS SMITH: So again, I go back to you being a minister and that being hard. Like, how, like, how does that work for you? Because I know as, like, an educator, there are certain things that we don't talk about with kids, you know, and politics is one of them. Of course we have to talk about masks because our kids have to wear masks to school. So, like, how does that work? Because I'm like, are you all having services with masks? Do you all have to wear masks to church? How does that go?

[29:30] LACEY WHEELER: Yeah, so where we are, we're in a county that has not Mandated mask wearing. And so it's kind of up to the individual churches what they, you know, want to do. And we have. Because I came in July, which was in the middle of the pandemic, we. I was kind of introduced to this community during that time and they had already had in play that they were going to just go by the county's suggestion. And so really it's been a recommendation, a strong recommendation that people wear masks and, you know, we are having in certain person services and. But our church is smaller and so we can only. We can only have up to 45 people in our sanctuary at a time. And we have blocked off our pews so that people can, you know, social distance and we're encouraging masks and. But it's still, I mean, there are people who definitely don't feel comfortable being in person. And so we're also live streaming and that has just, you know, that helps people to connect who are not here. But it's, it's a major concern for a lot of, a lot of our folks. You know, there are some people who are not coming because, you know, they're just waiting until it's completely safe for us to be together and to gather. So, yeah, it's been hard to navigate that and to keep people safe and to. Yeah, and with all the other tensions that people are experiencing of, you know, loss of job and the election and all of the things. I mean, there's just so many factors going on right now, I think, in people's lives. So. Yeah. Okay. What subjects do you find hard to talk about in the normal world?

[31:23] PRECIOUS SMITH: None. Not a one. It's like, it's throwing me. And then like, I have kids, so, you know, there is nothing that I will not talk about. My 6 year old asked the best questions ever. And so it's like, you know what? I'm ready, let's go. So, I mean, I will talk and can talk about pretty much anything. I have the best political conversations with people. We never see eye to eye, but they're always great and filled with excitement.

[32:07] LACEY WHEELER: I admire that about you because I wish I could be there, you know, hopefully one day. But. Yeah. Well, thank you.

[32:15] PRECIOUS SMITH: Thank you. And honestly, you know, honestly, something shifted, like when I turned 39. Like, honestly, before I turned 39, I was probably, I'm not going to say I was quiet. I've never really been quiet, but I was very. I would shy away from confrontation. I shied away from conversations. I just was like, I don't want to talk about that. And because I was Raised that, you know, people are seen and not heard. So that's how I was raised. And I turned 39 and I was like, I'm about to be 40. No, this isn't working. I'm going to say everything that pops in my mind and I'm going to say it and we're going to converse about it, and you not like it. And I may not like you, but that's okay. And honestly, from that point forward, it's been, like, amazing. And I had to. I had to really just look at where I was in my life. Like, no, ma'am, let's get this together. And so, like, my 6 year old is at that point where she's like, well, mommy, he said something I didn't like, but I didn't say anything. And I was like, oh, no, ma'am. No, ma'am, we're not going to do this. No, I said, next time if you don't like it, you say, you know what, you have your opinion and I don't like it, but that's okay. And you just keep it rolling. Always express your opinion. And she's like, that makes sense. And I was like, great. And then that night, it was like, hey. I was like, it's bath time. She was like, well, mommy, I really don't want to take a bath, but I respect your opinion and I'm going to go take a bath. I was like, yes, I did this.

[33:59] LACEY WHEELER: That is awesome.

[34:02] PRECIOUS SMITH: She's. She's a character. And it's like, you know what? I'm gonna. I'm gonna be better and do better for her because she. She's six, so it's like, you know, she emulates. She emulates everything that she sees. And I'm like, oh, no, we're not gonna be silent, you know, seen. But no, no, we're not gonna do that. So it's fun.

[34:22] LACEY WHEELER: I love that in conjunction with the shirt that you're wearing.

[34:26] PRECIOUS SMITH: Oh, definitely. Definitely Kamala I love Kamala And she did say, you know, she was like, no, we don't say, may I speak? We say, I'm speaking. I was like, yes. And I want this to work today. Sure did. Yes.

[34:41] LACEY WHEELER: Nice. Good for you.

[34:47] SPEAKER C: So since we are close to just the five minute mark left, and it seems like the two of you have found actually quite a bit of common ground. Are there any issues or avenues that you guys think that it might be beneficial to talk about that maybe you might disagree on? Lacey, you were talking about being a libertarian, perhaps, and usually that would mean less government, less Government programs and just less government in general. Do you align with that and do you think. I think that might be an interesting area to talk about, I guess is what I'm saying.

[35:36] LACEY WHEELER: Yeah, I, you know, that's why I still, I still feel like I'm still very fluid. Because when I think about, I mean, government assistance and things like that, I think is actually really important for people. And that's a conversation that, that I have had a lot with my immediate family because they, they are very. Not for government assistance. But I think that when government helps people, that's a good thing. When they can. When there are programs that help people to move forward and not just get stuck, but move forward, that's also a good thing. But I think I've always probably landed there more so. But I also, I also think that the way that we've done things does not help people move forward necessarily, but it keeps, keeps oppressing people and keeps people kind of stuck instead of giving people the resources that will actually help. Yeah. So I don't know if that answers your question.

[36:58] SPEAKER C: Yeah, absolutely. It wasn't very well formed.

[37:02] PRECIOUS SMITH: The funny thing though is that, like, I totally agree. Like, I really honestly feel like, I feel like there's been a major issue with some government programs not giving people the tools and resources that they need to no longer need the government programs. Assistance. So instead of using the government assistance to. Instead of using those government programs to educate, empower, and allow people to move forward, you know, it's like they're used to control people, if you will. So like a person that receives like TANF benefits, so you receive TANF benefits and you can only get those benefits if you have children and no job. And then as soon as you get a job, even if it's a minimum wage type job, then that assistance is no longer available. So then you need other assistance because your main source of health is now gone. And nowhere have you been educated on what you need to do next or, you know, how you need to help yourself, or, you know, you've got these kids, what do you do with these kids? You know, are you teaching kids that they need to go to college? Are you teaching them they need a trade? Are you teaching them anything? Or are the parents being helpful in this way as well? So I agree with the government programs. Like, I'm all for the government programs, but I really want those programs to empower and educate and not stifle and belittle.

[38:43] LACEY WHEELER: I agree.

[38:46] PRECIOUS SMITH: So how can we come together after such a divisive election year?

[38:53] LACEY WHEELER: I think this is a good start. I think conversation and really listening to one another, although I'm not sure how to teach that other than just through demonstrating that. You know, I think seeing one another's humanity is huge. Seeing that we're all people, that we all. We all hurt, we all ache. And finding some maybe commonality in our humanity might help us, I don't know, to not see one another as villains. But it's just people, you know, who are here. So I don't know. I guess listening and really seeing each other is probably where I would start. What about you? How can we come together after such a divisive election year?

[39:57] PRECIOUS SMITH: First thing is, I would definitely say listening to understand and not listening to respond. And that's like it. That's major because that's what people do. We hear people, but we don't really listen to them to understand what they're saying. We listen to them to come back with our response and our retort. And, you know, and honestly, it just starts with, I just feel like if we all practice the Golden Rule, you know, treat others like you want to be treated, and that really, I think, would do it. But clearly that's not. That's harder to do than to say so, you know, and then realizing that just because people may not look like you or may not have the same background as you, it doesn't mean that they don't have similar experiences or they don't have, like, similar ideas. And just allowing people, even if they don't look like you, to get to know you and you get to know them, it makes a major difference.