Quinton Mason and Tim Michel

00:01 My name is Tim Michel and I'm 74 years old, and today is, I think, the 18th. And I'm recording a one small step conversation at the Karsh Institute of Democracy at WTJU studio in Charlottesville, Virginia. My partner's name is Quintin

00:21 My name is Quintin Mason, and I'm 31 years old. Today's date is November 18, 2022. I'm recording a one small step conversation with the Karsh Institute of Democracy at the WTJU studio in Charlottesville, Virginia. My partner's name is Tim Michel Thank you both for bearing with that very long introduction. It's a bit of a tongue twister. So the first question I want to ask each of you is, what made you want to sign up for one of these conversations? So, for myself, I find it interesting just talking to strangers in general, and I, knowing that everyone has a story and not everyone has the time or makes the time to hear it, is something that's really interesting to me. In my research. Now at school, I want to conduct interviews myself, so getting a firsthand approach to it is interesting. Like, worthwhile to me. Yeah. How about you?

01:23 So I guess I'm the same way. I'm pretty frustrated politically, and I every other way, so it's good for me to talk to people outside my normal circle. And like you, I mean, some of the most meaningful conversations I've ever had in my life have been with strangers, particularly traveling or somewhere. And you have this conversation, and it just becomes this amazing connection where there aren't any artificial walls, there's no barriers. And so that's kind of what I'm hoping will happen today. Yeah.

01:56 Wonderful. So the first exercise we make all of our participants do, as I mentioned, is read out their partner's bio. So you each have a copy of what your partner wrote about themselves to introduce themselves. So I'm going to have each of you take turns reading what your partner wrote. And then for the next, you know, five to ten minutes, if there's specific things that they brought up that you want to ask more about, I encourage you to. And then usually, we'll transition into talking a little bit about, like, early memories and formative events. So I'll leave it to y'all. Do you want to go first?

02:30 Okay. So I'm reading Quinton's, and this is what he wrote. As a black man born and raised in Richmond, Virginia, it is common to encounter spaces that were purposefully and inadvertently designed without all users in mind. Unknowingly, these experiences shaped my future mission as an architect to emphasize empathy while designing environments for individuals of different backgrounds. My name is Quentin, a masters of architecture student at the University of Virginia. I'm a firm believer that learning extends beyond the four walls of the classroom.

03:10 So Tim's bio reads, old white guy, father, husband, semi retired artist, printmaker, believer. And there is much more here than meets the eye. Sufi. Is that how you pronounce it? Sufi, buddhist, catholic, ex hippie. Went to Woodstock. Discouraged by both political parties, independent, left leaning on social issues. Believe the country and world are in a world of hurt. Very, very tired of everyone being decisive, tribal, lashing out. Believe in beauty, unity, the worthiness, even scaredness of every human sacredness of every human hate, rudeness, and entitlement.

03:57 So when I read what I wrote, I was slightly embarrassed. But it's accurate.

04:02 Yeah, no, I think everything that I wrote mine as very, like, academic and very PC. And this, to me, is like, who you are, and I appreciate it. Yeah, I feel like I didn't. I felt similarly, I guess, embarrassment of, like, wow, I should have been more vulnerable in my bio. So I appreciate your honesty in your bio.

04:28 Well, great. So I think she. What we're supposed to do is look back at what you wrote and sort of ask questions about it. So you and I share the a school. I went to the a school and have a master's in landscape architecture from the seventies. It was a really long time ago.

04:48 I'm sure not much has changed.

04:50 Actually, a lot changed. Yeah. We had to draw. There were no computers.

04:54 Very true.

04:55 So that's a whole different world. And it was pretty much design. Design. Nothing social, you know, not what they mainly are, seem to be focusing on now. But I love that you share that because we experience space, I think, different than some people do. I'm super sensitive to it, and I'm. And I love it. So when I go into new spaces, I'm just aware of space. Like, this room is how we got up here. My senses are up about those things that I know you are, too. Because that's what you're studying.

05:28 Yep.

05:29 So I thought that was really cool. I guess when. When I read your bio, I appreciated a couple things you said, and I was happy because I am very tired of the sort of divisiveness I feel. And everybody's got a. You know, they list themselves in categories to the extent that it's inhibiting.

05:57 Yeah.

05:58 So you basically said you encountered spaces and that you'd experienced them, that they weren't for all users in mind, and you didn't just say racial. So. And I thought you might. I mean, I was. When I. When you started out as a black man, I thought, well, that's where we're going, and that's great. But you didn't. Why?

06:20 For me, I think a lot of times, specifically in America, there are these classes that you mentioned, and everybody needs to fit in a specific column. And a lot of times, it's based on race and a lot of spaces, as you mentioned, when we go in as architects and designers, we see them and we feel them differently. We are tuned to look and pay attention to these certain things that make space the way that it is. So when we start, when I talk about creating spaces for people, it's beyond race for me. People feel slighted or any number away based on who they are as an individual, and that's more than just what your race is. So when I say encountering spaces that aren't designed for everyone, it's how do you identify for yourself? Not what other people are seeing in you and what they first assume about you on your appearance, but more so, like, who are you as individual? How can we start to curate those spaces for everyone, not just a racial. Black people want space like this. White people want space like this, other races. How can we start to take that away and just focus on humanity? Like, who are you at the center?

07:41 That's wonderful.

07:42 Yeah, that's about where I'm at with that.

07:44 Yeah. So have you already working as an architect, or were you, because you said 31.

07:51 So I have had a very long process in school. I am currently interning right now. I've interned at two firms, but during my education, not in Charlottesville and Richmond. They are architecture firms, design firms. I originally was going to school for vocal performance and ended up shifting gears after the original school that I was at, they ended up canceling the music program. So I decided to shift gears and do my backup plan for architecture, and was applying to Tech and UVa and Hampton University and didn't get into any of them, so was still trying to keep going and keep the faith, like, it's all going to work out. I just need to keep applying and trying. It wasn't that I was making bad grades, just was not happening for whatever reason. And at the school that I was at, they ended up. My advisor was an adjunct professor at VCU and told me, well, basically, to give up on architecture and to focus on, not in a bad way, but in a, hey, if it's not working out, go ahead and shift gears. Go pursue interior design. So I was like, okay, I guess that's fine. The way that VCU teaches interior design isn't from a decorating standpoint where I think a lot of people see interior design, but more of like, interior architect. So actually building space and going beyond just this looks pretty, or this color goes with this and being able to fulfill that. So going to VCU, completed the degree, have a bachelor's in interior design, and was like, I'm not fulfilled. This isn't doing what I want it to do, or I'm not. The questions that I want to bring up in design aren't being fulfilled in the role that I'm in right now. So let's see what architecture can do, how that can start to change. So that's why I'm here now, pursuing a master of architecture. So it's been a whirlwind of experience, but great.

10:06 What I heard was that you were being pigeonholed. Yeah. And when I went to the a school, landscape architecture was still kind of new. And really you had to go work for an architectural firm and you'd be in the back and they would come back with a finished design and say, shrub it up. Literally, you shrub it up. So, you know, that didn't work for me because it was, it just wasn't. I want the whole picture.

10:38 Yeah.

10:38 And that's where you're going, which is great.

10:41 That's where I think is. My frustration with a lot of architects is that there isn't a lot of agency within themselves to consider others. And it's all about me. Me as architect. Ego gets in a way, of a lot of it, and I don't think that's the way that it originally started. I think all of humanity, for that instance, we tend to focus on ourselves and not how other people are doing or caring enough to hear out what other people are doing. So how can we start to change that mindset for me as an architect going in like, no, I want to create this space for somebody else. Not just, hey, look at that building that I designed, but actually care about, hey, who are the people that are going to be in this building that I design? How is that going to last and be helpful to the building of them as person less about, hey, keep looking at this thing that I built. I can build another one in a different city. And it is just about me. Yeah. Creating this public work of art that people happen to go into or not partnering with landscape designers or interior designers and just like, hey, I built this thing. Do what you do now. To jazz it up.

11:56 The other thing is missing in that conversation is the client. So if it's a hospital versus a school versus an apartment house developer, you have to talk that through, and I know they do that. I know you're learning all that or doing it already. You already seem like you're doing it. So are you still singing?

12:16 No, not as much. I know. I know I do. Occasionally at church, I sing on the praise team, but that's about it. On the which praise team?

12:28 The praise team.

12:29 So praise and worship.

12:31 I love that. Yeah, actually, I really do love that. I didn't know there was a praise team. Is that here or you're in Richmond?

12:38 In Richmond, yeah. So I still live in Richmond and commute and daily for school.

12:44 Yeah, it's a long way.

12:46 After the first week, kind of go numb to driving for an hour and 15 minutes.

12:52 I worry about that road trip. Cause it's dark and it's quiet. I mean, you could just go off the road.

12:58 Thankfully, I don't stay too late at the a school. I think I'm few in that number of those that feel obligated to stay late and work countless hours.

13:09 We slept there.

13:10 Yeah, that's how I was in undergrad. I would not leave at the time. I was working two jobs and going to school, and that was the only time that I had to work on schoolwork was after work, and a lot of times that was after 09:00 p.m. so I would be there from nine until a lot of times until class started working on homework or doing design work. So I do appreciate now at the a school that there's a lot of conversation about how can we start to change this culture of staying there all night and, like, feeling like you have to because it's some sort of hazing or initiation that needs to happen. Yeah. Like, why are we doing this again? Focusing on humanity, unless about I did it. So you need to or, like, pay your dues as far as.

13:56 Well, I'm not getting super excited that you are singing. You may not be singing as much as you want, but you're singing, and obviously you need to do that. So I didn't even put landscape artact on my thing. I didn't talk about my work life because I just didn't. But the printmaking part is the part that keeps me sane or the art making part.

14:18 I was about to ask type of art do you make?

14:21 Well, I mainly print and I use the facility over there. I'm a student right now and I can use that facility, which is really terrific, but I would go crazy if I didn't make art. I mean, I know I would be unhinged or not balanced enough to be close to my optimum port. And since that's probably true of your, too, if you just didn't sing.

14:48 Yeah.

14:49 You would be knowing, I'm not singing. I'm not feeding that part.

14:54 Yeah. It's been this weird balance of where in pursuing architecture and research and wanting more, expecting more, and honestly demanding more of the profession in general, trying to find myself in that is. Yeah. So making space where there seems to be none is important for me as well as anybody else. Coming up, like, how can I bring about that change? How can I be the one that starts something new instead of just being another cog in the wheel and like, all right, here we go. We have to do this. Or this is the expectation that's of us. Instead of questioning myself and, like, what is it that I'm doing that is helpful or harmful to the larger society, I think we're aligned in seeing that we're not just ourselves in the moment. But how can we actually.

15:51 Where do you stay?

15:53 What?

15:53 Where?

15:54 Mainly at church. That's about it. And in the car?

15:58 I mean, this is in the car. This is in Richmond.

16:01 Yeah, all in Richmond. I come to Charlottesville for school and leave. I don't spend a lot of time up here.

16:08 Is this the church you grew up in?

16:10 Yep. So I've been going there now for 20 years.

16:14 Sweet.

16:15 Yeah. So pretty in the thick of it. The name is abundance of joy Faith ministries.

16:22 Abundance of joy.

16:24 So I'm going to jump in here for a second, because you're talking a bit about. Well, you've been at this church for 20 years, and, Tim, you talked about art is almost like therapeutic is a necessity for a long time. And I'm wondering. We like to do a bit of a retrospective question, line of questioning to bring people to some of the origins of their interests and passions. Was there someone who had a particularly strong influence on you growing up, who impacted your interests or way of life, life philosophy, and could you share a bit about what they taught you?

17:00 I'm gonna let you go. That's a hard question.

17:02 It really is. I'd say for me it was. I think it was understanding a lot of history and seeing how resilient black people are and how specifically during a lot of the civil rights movement, and how much power and encouragement was felt within the community itself and feeling that dwindle away. It seems ever since then and how can I. Where can I find that again? And where do I feel like I'm actually making that steps toward empowering myself as well as others beyond just the black community. But anyone that's feeling slighted or not seen or valued, how can I start to bring value to them is what empowers me. And, like, drives me to do a lot of what it is that I do.

18:13 Was there specific people or.

18:16 I can't really say. There's not, like, one specific person, I think in school. I grew up in a predominantly white neighborhood and school system, so a lot of what was taught is the Martin Luther King junior and Harriet Tubman and, like, all right, yeah, like, so what are we doing here? And waiting until 8th grade. I think it was 8th grade, maybe 9th. Yeah, it was definitely in high school. But being in an advanced class and learning about Emmett Till, why am I just now learning about this? And being able to live experiences and feel that they're not valid or you don't have an authority to say feels very limiting as far as, hey, I don't feel like this space is created for me. And then people ask, like, what do you mean? And then you explain it, and it's like, well, you don't really know. Or like, that's not right, or, that's not the way it is now because of integration and all this other stuff. But, like, it goes deeper than that. How can we start to challenge a lot of what we just brush off as the norm and really start to question what it is and people's intentions? I think as you were pointing out in your bio about political party and feeling like there's only the two that we have to go with, and realizing that there's more and we can demand a lot more from political leadership as well as nationally as well as locally, how can we start to ask those questions and really bring about the change that we want to see? I don't really. I can't pinpoint a specific person. It's more of just like a collective of. It's not really opiology. There's a good and a bad thing about that. I do see that there's a hope. I think a lot of people aren't willing to do the work that it takes to bring about change specifically in asking those questions of, like, how can I be better? What can I do to better community? And hear that everybody has a valid point. I think a lot of times it is a lot of, well, you don't agree exactly with me. So we're on opposite sides when a lot of times it's that we're all just asking to be heard and appreciate it.

20:48 Yeah.

20:48 And seeing. I love what you say in here about beauty, unity, and just like humanity itself, the sacredness of being human, we all can appreciate that and all are trying to find this. And everyone has a vision of what that looks like. And not getting in your own way of achieving that, I think is important.

21:11 You're really articulate. You are. I mean, you're saying a lot of things that I kind of feel and hope. And I'm not just talking about racial issues either, but we can certainly go there. There's plenty to do. So I grew up through a lot of that stuff, and I was alive when Emmett Till was killed, and I remember a lot of that stuff. And Risham was the confederate capital and the murder capital, which, interestingly, go together, you know, and I grew up north and this south was a whole different deal.

21:48 Yeah.

21:48 I mean, I didn't get it at all. But one of the things I really wanted to ask you was whether you feel optimistic, but listening to you do.

21:59 Yeah.

22:00 Which is great, because I have a sense that maybe it's my age, maybe it's just what's happened over the last couple of years. I want to be hopeful. My kids are a little negative. They're like, you screwed it up. This is going to be. We're going to live with that. But it sounds like you don't feel that way.

22:26 I'm hopeful that everyone will put themselves aside whether or not that happens. I think there's. You can either be hopeful and hope that things are going to be changed for the better, or you can just wallow and sorrow and, like, be pessimistic about a lot of the situations. And for me, it's like, what? Yeah, why? There's so much more to enjoy about life than just, like, focusing on the negative and just wallowing on what's happening now instead of being hopeful for change and then finding my way to actually make that change happen.

23:04 Yeah.

23:06 How about you, Tim, as far as.

23:07 An influential person, people. Well, you know, when you're at this age, there are a whole lot of people, and I'm still being influenced by people, and I want to be influenced by people. I mean, I want to be open enough that meeting people like you changed me. But, you know, I think, you know, I'd have to look back. I had a couple of great teachers and, you know, good teachers, just gold. I mean, somebody who says, you're good at this, you know, I support you and, you know, I think that sort of thing is just so critical. So I had a couple of good teachers, and I had a. I had parents that were good. My mother was particularly useful in terms of. Or she gave me a lot. Useful is a pretty harsh word, but she encouraged me and encouraged my brothers, and we all felt that we were loved and cared for and that the world was basically a safe place. And that's how I grew up. It was a safe place. There wasn't. There weren't a lot of problems. I was oblivious to a lot of the world's problems. So I'd have to name her and a couple of teachers over the years. I've had some. I would broadly call them. It's funny, cause I've done this recently, actually, and finishing up a project where I'm thanking a couple of those people. Some of them are gone. A lot of them are gone, but specific. I had a couple of really good teachers of spiritual teachers who were useful to me. And I've had what I considered deep friendships with a couple of people where there really is. I have you, your back, and I appreciate those people very much. So it's been kind of interesting to actually name them and go back and look at them. And my wife and I, she's sick right now, but we're doing okay. Just as quick aside, but Harry Porter, who used to be the head of the landscape division, wrote me a letter ten years after graduation. It just said, you know, I'm watching what you're doing. Keep it up. Good job. And that was such a valuable letter to get that we do it now. So years later, we started sending letters back to people, you know, that teacher of your son in fourth who, you know, made a difference. So we've been sending those letters the last couple of years. Every once in a while, it's great, you know, the people you sort of said thank you, but never saw again. So there have been a lot of people that have influenced me in a good way.

26:05 And then if I can follow up, not to ask more questions, but I. You did mention Tim, you know, being a bit oblivious to some of the issues around you when you were younger. And one of the questions we ask our participants is if you have, like, a first memory of politics or becoming aware of the things around you that mattered. And I was curious if each of you could maybe recall any memories associated with that.

26:34 When you mentioned it before, the thing that came to mind was Kennedy's death, because I was. I didn't think stuff like that happened. It didn't happen in my world. You know, I was pretty privileged. Didn't know I was as privileged as I was. Grew up in a suburb. You know, we were fine financially, but when that happened, the world stopped, and people were united in their grief the same way that you might know of 911 or some other things where suddenly it's like, oh, my God, this is really. We're on one ship, and this happened to everybody. Covid did the same thing at first for the first couple of periods, but so I would say Kennedy's death was definitely probably the first time I realized maybe the world wasn't safe, and maybe there was a lot of anger and hate and sadness. How about you?

27:44 For me, it was a lot sooner and age wise. I remember, as I mentioned before, growing up in a predominantly white neighborhood, and it was kindergarten and riding the bus, and this white little kid comes up to me and is like, you need to be in the back of the bus. I'm like, what do you mean I need to be in the back of the bus? Like, I'm about to get off the bus stop. There's. I don't need to be back there. And he goes on and we go back and forth for a little while, just like me, questioning why I need to be in the back of the bus. I had never heard of being in the back of the bus before. And he was like, well, niggers are supposed to be in the back of the bus. And it's like, what is that? Like, I don't know what that is. And going home and asking my mom, like, what? What is. What is the nigger like? I don't know what that means. And having this conversation of what it like is supposed to mean the real meaning and then what the derogatory meaning of it is and getting back on the bus and feeling empowered and, like, actually, you don't know what you're talking about. And that, for me, was when I was like, wow, this isn't. I feel I'm not like everyone else or, like, feeling that the world isn't this place of, like, a similar situation of growing up, being loved at family, and, like, being at home and race isn't a larger thing. I think my best friends were white. And realizing then, like, oh, some people, not all white people, are not here for you or don't have your best interest at heart. That was the first time that I remember feeling or realizing that the world isn't always as rainbow and sunshine as I hope for it to be. So since that moment probably was when I was like, yeah, I gotta bring a change or I have to. What can I do to shake that.

29:46 Up or protect yourself from it?

29:50 Yeah.

29:53 That'S a tough one. So the. I was friends when I was little with someone of color, but it was unusual, and I didn't know it was unusual. I just had no clue. I told other people, listen, I deeply regret. I mean, if I could go, you can't go back, but I wish I'd had a really tight friendship with somebody of color. I don't care what the hue is, it doesn't matter. Or had a relationship that way and just didn't happen. You know, the world was so insular.

30:41 Yeah, I think it still is in certain aspects. I think that's what is more frustrating to me is a lot of people talking about how inclusive everything is and realizing that it really isn't. And a lot of people have gotten good at saying what they think people want to hear and wanting to say, yes, we've. Yes. Granted, I will take a step back and acknowledge that there have been a lot of improvements, or I'll say some improvements, but changing the heart of people is another thing people have come to terms with. Okay, I can't say this, or I can't do this, or people will look at me poorly. So it's still about self and not about the other person and actually valuing who they are and more of how can I preserve my image to the world. So, like, how can we start to change people's hearts and minds so that they're connected and not a, I'm just respecting you in to your face because that's what everyone expects me to do, but behind closed doors, it's totally different. Yeah, like, I don't care about you. I don't actually value and what you're saying isn't of value. Like, how can we start to change that is more of where. Yeah, I want to start questioning and poking and prodding and figuring that out more because a lot of it is to. Has to do with exposure and like we said, starting out this conversation of having conversations with strangers and only feeling comfortable enough to talk to somebody that looks like you or be in friendship with people that only look like you, that it's not helping anyone. So, like, how can we start to diversify beyond race? I think race has a specific starting point, specifically in America, but how can we start to go beyond that and genders and acknowledging a lot how people identify and in that itself, not pigeonholing people and being able to. I think it comforts us as humans to be able to look at something and identify it. And as long as person fits in my box of how I identify and I classify, that makes it easier for me to accept you or like for me to be comfortable. So, like, finding those intentional moments where you're still safe, but you make yourself uncomfortable to expose yourself to something or an idea that you haven't heard before.

33:28 Right.

33:28 Yeah.

33:28 So if you. The basic thing that's wrong is that a lot of people don't see the divinity or the humanity in the other person and don't want to because you're the other, and I'm over here, and I'm protecting what I've got, at least in this case. But I can't tell you how heartening is for me to hear you as a black man from Richmond, Virginia, which I consider a pretty difficult place, apparently, you grew up, well, comfortably, but not identify specifically as just black. Black is the, you know, and all the other things are way down the list. You know, male student, whatever, designer. You know, I just think that's so great because I keep running into people, and I'm watching it myself. I'm trying to watch it myself, who are backed into these corners by these self identifications. So, like, both parties drive me crazy. They're like, and you have to buy the whole agenda, or you're out. And I've been to pretty progressive meetings, trying to be helpful and been dismissed, which has been really good for me, but shocking. Or I've been dismissed because I'm old and I looked a little bit like Trump, and I have some money, and so I was not gonna be part of the conversation.

35:05 Yeah. So you're actually leading up to a really important part of what we do here, which is to talk about kind of personal political ideologies and then also these misunderstandings that happen. So you're already kind of starting. I want to come back to that. But before we get there, if you could take a minute to describe. You mentioned you don't really subscribe to the binary as much to the political binary.

35:28 Right.

35:29 So how would you describe your personal political ideology? And then, Quentin, of course, I extend that question to you as well.

35:37 Right. My political ideology. Well, some of it's what Quentin and I touched on, which isn't really a political statement. It's, you know, when people talk to me about politics, I tend to come back with, so what are we going to do about it? Instead of these arguments that go in a circle, what are some concrete steps we can do? Or I can do, or you can do, even if they're small. This is a small step. I love the title of this, but maybe that's all there is. Maybe this is the best we can do, is do this all the time. But on a, so I do ask that question pretty quickly, and I get frustrated when people just want to spin it and keep going on that negative topic. But I guess politically, you know, I'm, I consider myself an independent who usually votes democratic. I mean, I voted democratic so long, I can't remember when I voted a Republican. But I know I did one time. But I, and we both, my wife and I have voted for independent people over the years because we didn't really like either party, whether it was Ralph Nader or, you know, just anybody. Give us anybody else.

36:57 Yeah.

36:58 So, you know, socially, we're, I would, we're certainly on the progressive end. And I feel very much that way. I mean, I could care less what your gender preferences were. I just, I mean, I think it's interesting, the same way it's interesting where you went to school, but it's not important to me. It's a defining, am I gonna like you or not? You know, but I'm so, I'm worried about the world, deeply worried about the world, because it feels as if all the systems are falling apart, and I think they are falling apart. So I have to figure out whether they're falling apart, not to figure it out, but I have to ride it. So are they falling apart so we can rebuild something else which is much bigger and broader and inclusive and so everything has to go. And when I get confronted by issues of my own privilege, which I know I have because I lived a long time and I started a long time ago, I've said to people, I just have to die. My generation has to die. And once we're gone, things will be easier. And I think there's some truth to that. I do. I mean, it's kind of sad, but I, I think we have to get out of the way and I, and I have to be willing to give up stuff. Give up. You know, I go to meetings and everybody drove there individually in one car, and we're talking about the climate. What the hell are we doing?

38:34 Yeah.

38:35 And there's no, no surprise there because nobody wants to give up their car. We're not going to talk about that. I might get an 80,000 electric car, but that's really nothing.

38:45 Yeah.

38:47 So I don't know if that's answering the question through me or not. Probably not.

38:51 Well, it is. I think that's a great response. Yeah.

38:55 But I'm physically more conservative than most people in the democratic party. I think we're in a huge amount of debt that's going to come back and really hurt us, hurt everybody. I do think the world's in a really dangerous place, not only politically and geopolitically. I feel like you can feel the pressure points scraping against each other like some sort of glaciers just crashing against each other. So big things are coming. I think it's going to be rough, but I'm hopeful that it, out of the chaos, the new gets born. And I'm not apocalyptic or anything, but I just don't. The systems currently don't work at all.

39:49 Yeah. I think I'm similar as far as democratic identifying, although I don't really say that identify with either party or any party. It's who's doing exactly what needs to be done to bring about the correct change for that moment is more my political affiliation. Yeah, that's how I feel about that. I think going back to your comment about needing to just die or, like, in order for there to be any change, I think a lot of people in your generation have been isolated and have been able to isolate themselves and haven't really had the chance to be exposed to different experiences or different people. I think you've allowed yourself the freedom to experience that, I guess. When were you, when did you start to see, hey, this isn't just me or I'm not. When did you acknowledge your privilege and how have you been able to pivot that?

41:03 Well, I'm still working on that, you know, because growing up the way I did, which was very middle class, and it sounds like you had somewhat of a middle class life, too, which is great. So that's hugely positive all by itself. For me, that's just hugely positive. But it took me a long time when things started going, there was more and more conversations about this, you know, say a decade ago, to be able to look back and go, oh, that was just. That wasn't just the way it was. It was the way it was, but it was ridiculously privileged. And I hear in my own family and my friendships with people, much more in appreciation of, oh, my gosh, we really were privileged, but also blessed. I mean, life was really good at the same time, without realizing that it was so bad for other people, so incredibly bad for other people. So, you know, some of. Some of the ways that that's come about, it's just that we're exposed to so much more. You know, I know there are famines going on all over the world, and I've traveled enough to see real poverty, but even though I haven't experienced it myself, and I certainly don't want my children to experience it or anybody close to me to experience, but I know it's there, and I've seen some of the devastation of that. So traveling was a big part. When I graduated from college, it was Vietnam, and these things are so funny to me. So it was Vietnam, and they did a lottery with ping pong balls in a machine with numbers, and it was your birthday, and it was 365 ping pong balls on tv, like a game show. And I was stoned out of my mind with my friends watching, waiting to hear what was going to happen to my life. Am I being sent to war? I was fighting against the war. I was in the streets. We all were, which was. I haven't seen that kind of unity at all either. I don't understand why people aren't in the streets. But anyway, my generation was pretty jazzed up because we were being sent to war. They weren't coming home, and it wasn't where we wanted. But anyway, so I got a high number, and so I didn't have to go. So I took, you know, my $2,000, which is all I had, and went around the world, and it took a year. So I saw a lot of stuff that was with a lot of people and vulnerable in a lot of places today. You'd be killed. There's no question. In some of the places I was, I should have been killed. Yeah, I was stoned. I mean, all kinds of crazy things happened to, but it opened me up to the world just being a different kind of place and recognizing a little bit how privileged I was. As far as being an american, I'm still. That was the time when being an american was really great. You could be in any country in the world, and you're welcomed, really welcomed. That's not true anymore, but. But it's only lately that I've been dealing with the ridiculous privilege that I've had and the prejudices that are part of that that I kind of knew were there but hadn't really been asked to look at or confronted with or wanted to, even if it was just a way for me to grow as a human. It was like, do I have to look at the shadow places, too? Apparently you do.

44:45 Yeah. I think I've had to do a similar exercise of checking my own privilege and realizing what things were working for me. That haven't worked for others. And having a strong family for me is something that has really just kept me energized to keep going and encouraging me as I figure it all out, try to make sense of the world as we've come to know it now. But I think, like you're saying, it sounds like you've exposed yourself a lot to being able to travel the world. Granted, it wasn't as an optimal time, probably avoiding it was the Vietnam war. Right, right.

45:33 It was a great time to travel, though. Yeah. And I was young, so I could do it, but yeah, it exposed me to a lot.

45:49 So I just wanted to ask, since we're coming towards the end of the conversation, if there's. Well, lastly, if there's any other situations where you've had to kind of step back and like you mentioned, you know, evaluate where misunderstandings happen and how you deal with those. I know you both kind of talked about this already, but if there's anything else that you want to add, I want to give a moment for that. But then if you want to read off the last two questions on that list, I'll let you to read those to each other as a way for us to close out. So is there anything you learned about me today that surprised you?

46:38 Yes. Well, I didn't have a preconceived idea too much, but obviously I had some, and I thought that this might be slightly more confrontational instead of. I mean, we share a lot of stuff and we didn't even get started on what we share, but we obviously share a whole lot of things, right down to. We have our little book, and I carry a book all the time.

47:10 It's the architecture school.

47:12 Well, just, you know, I'm making notes and jotting stuff down all the time or drawing. And so I'm sort of surprised at the kind of commonalities we have. And I'm relieved that you had a privileged life so far, apparently. I mean, you're making it, and I wasn't. I just didn't know. So that was good.

47:44 Yeah.

47:45 It's more the commonalities for you. You singhe. That's how you connect with something greater. And I do it through art, but that's what we're doing. And our own humanities, I think. How about you?

48:02 I think similarly, a lot of the commonalities, but I think that's also part of us as humans, is seeing where people are more in common than differences. So I think that may where we have slighted our view of this, but I think there are a lot more commonalities. And I think if people just take the time to sit and listen to someone, you realize that you do have a lot more in common than what oftentimes you go in thinking or having these preconceived ideas of what somebody is, or just reading a bio. Orlando. We didn't have anything to see each other at first, but, like, reading someone. What is this saying? Judge a book by its cover. So, for me, it was important not to come in with any ideas at all and just, like, read your bio. I'm like, okay, this is where I'm headed, or, like, who I'm about to go meet. But being ready and open and excited to have this conversation and see where it lead is important. Yes.

49:10 Nice.

49:11 Thank you both for, you know, a wonderful conversation.

49:18 Can I ask you a question? Yeah, a couple questions.

49:21 Do you want this on the record?

49:23 Sure.

49:23 Okay.

49:25 So, you know, and this isn't tied just to racial issues. What can I do to beyond this conversation and beyond treating people that I meet with respect, is there concrete things that you might suggest that someone like me do?

49:56 For me, it is. Continuing to expose yourself and find those, again, find safe spaces to do this, but finding people that challenge your beliefs, not in a way to convince them that you're right, but just a way to hear what they're saying, I think helps to broaden everyone, like, both parties. Somebody that's willing to have the conversation with you? Um, yeah, I think, yeah, it's all about exposure for me. And being able to confront and feel confident when you're hearing amongst your friend group than amongst your family. Uh, a lot of times, it's a lot easier to speak up against someone that isn't related to you or, like, you feel as close to, um. But being able to in those spaces, um, if something said or said or heard felt by you that doesn't feel right or, like, in alignment with other perspectives, being able to speak up to that is important. I think a lot of work that happened in 2020 during George Floyd, and a lot of people, specifically white people, doing the work, quote, unquote, to expose themselves and figure out how they can make a difference without actually challenging those. Yeah. Like, all right, I'm gonna read this book. Like, I'll post black lives matter, use the hashtag. But again, like, changing your heart and challenging those that are closest to you to actually bring about change is what I see as important to actually facilitate anything changing. So those people that aren't willing to. That are, we'll say, look like you or have this outlook of, oh, those are young people, they don't care, or those are a different race. They don't care about what I have to say or like chiming in. So they're not even trying to listen to what someone like myself may have to say. So being able and comfortable, not even comfortable, but just like being confident in you, speaking up in those friend groups and in those spaces is important to help to bring about that change. Otherwise, no one's listening to who they think is their enemy. So who is somebody that's close to them? How can they start to lean into what you're saying and actually question and evaluate what they're looking at?

52:41 I think. I think I understand. So the other question you don't have to answer because it's pretty on the spot, but I want to hear you sing at the choir.

52:53 I'm trying to think of a song that I would even sing.

52:56 I mean, I want to come here to choir.

52:58 Well, I'm not in a choir, but. What, are you kidding me? There's only like five of us in there. But I. Yeah, I can find a video of something for you.

53:11 So when all this stuff went down in Charlottesville, I was very involved with something that raised a lot of money, which was really fun. So we set up a thing to. So it was a meditation teacher and I, and NPR took off with it.

53:29 Now, which stuff?

53:31 Well, there's been a lot. I'm sorry. Yes, that's good. Good point. So this is when the Ku Klux Klan came and then the other one was the whole rally was going to happen. So we set up a thing to where people could donate money or make pledges based on how many people from the alt right were going to show up. And if you pledge a dollar and if there were 5000 people, you had to give $5,000. Although, you know, we didnt know what would happen, but it took off at the end because it was such a crazy, crazy day and you weren't here then, which was good because it was a, it was a bad day. But anyway, so there was something called the clergy collective and they're still going on, but I was involved in that for a while, so. And I took voice lessons and I actually sang, although I'm terrible in a choir because it was so free, I don't know how to play an instrument.

54:28 Yeah.

54:28 So. But it would be fun to hear. What was the name of your choir? I mean, I wrote it down.

54:35 The church is abundance of joy.

54:37 Right. Which is in Richmond, but you're part.

54:40 Of a choir called just a praise team.

54:44 The praise team. I mean, I've never even heard that. I love that anyway. Well, that would be enjoyable to hear. What? Because I hope you keep singing. Definitely keep singing no matter what.

54:54 Probably will.

54:57 All right, well, thank you.

54:58 Yeah. Thank you.