R. Kelly Cameron and Helen Cameron

00:01 Go ahead.

00:04 Hello, my name is Helen. Today is February 11th 2021.

00:16 I'm calling from my Boston and the person I'm going to talk with his related to me.

00:27 Okay, that's that's about the end of my my name is Kelly Cameron. I am a 52 year old black male. Today is Thursday, February 11th 2011. I'm calling from Boston Massachusetts and my conversation partner today is my mother and I am also often affectionately known to harass third. I'll talk more about that. Later.

01:02 So Ma.

01:05 First and foremost. Thank you for doing this with me. I really really appreciate it.

01:11 Let me Begin by by saying you know, I've said this to you before you you you have lived the most interesting life to me.

01:21 And by way of context that mean by your journey to Boston as a teenager.

01:29 Subsequently marrying and starting a family

01:34 Tenacity and dedication to your own education

01:41 Getting higher levels of Education

01:45 Your aunt preneurship in home ownership and all that kind of stuff and just along the way all the other things that you dabble did but I got to I got to tell you that although I'm your third born out of 3, I have the strangest feeling. I may wear the crown of not only the most independent but also the one who created for a worry for you and my father, you know, my story better than I probably better than I do but growing up. I I know my two brothers love me. I know that, but for the most part they they they included me sometimes and things they probably should have said no I shouldn't have been a part of

02:32 I'll be doggone. If they didn't prevent me from from getting hurt over the course of my life. Do you recall the the time I had the fall in the in the in the head stitches situation? Oh, yeah, and I carried you to the hospital all the way on my back. And I I remember you also telling me about how my dad blamed my two brothers for what happened in that hole.

03:08 Do you remember the time when when I have the falling out the car accident?

03:15 Oh my god. Oh, that was the worst trauma for me. I still feel pain from that even though it wasn't you were in the accident, but I felt the pain of it. I still feel like I think about I think about my life like that and how often times they escaped from some things that I was always the one who experienced something meaning of cars in an accident about how about the car accident in high school when I was with Wayne. How did you feel, for me?

04:06 And I didn't blame anyone for that other than myself. I think I should have put my foot down and not allowed you to have a car even though you had a driver's license and you were able to try the area where excellent driver ice ice. I just think I'd let you take the rain you were old enough to drive and you are very responsible and and participating it every activity except I should have said no to that one.

04:44 Yeah, I'm just grateful that. It wasn't worse than no. That's that came out of it very well. And you responded to it very well and I was probably the first and only accident you've ever had as far as I know.

05:02 Yeah, it was the first major accident I have but I remember when you incentivize the option of getting a driver's license by offering to buy the first of your three sizes of car would get there. I think that was the motivation behind it or otherwise, I probably wouldn't even bother getting one at 17. But but you know, you know. You know what? I remember about that. I remember waking up in the hospital and seeing you.

05:33 I wish I was heartbroken that you had to see me like that. I mean I really experienced moments with you. I was totally jacked up emotionally. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and I know things that I remember the most about that true, but you're lying there on that hospital bed with glass broken glass. I just couldn't stay in the room. I didn't want you to see me break down, what excuse I made up.

06:11 But you don't text me now 2.

06:23 Grasp. It was just a trauma and I remember last was in your hair and I was just I was just devastated when you were explaining to me how your fault and so forth or things that happened. Yeah, we had a hierarchy in our family and the oldest child was responsible for that was my contribution to the family. I always insisted that my oldest boy I watch out for his younger brothers. And so if you're riding,

07:23 Stream younger brothers ook strapped in the whole works, but that but you're right. It was not like me of the death benefit many of times when growing up me and my brothers will talk and stuff in and often times when things what happened to me and they knew they were responding to be held accountable. You know, they would often say what am I saying anything? Don't don't say anything. Don't worry about it. He would stop or something. Yeah, and it came to a point where instead of reporting matters to me or to your dad. You would report it to your older brothers, and it was like we have you handled everything. I'm on yourself and you left us out of it pretty much and I remember your brother going to bat for you.

08:23 Yeah, you know it's funny because a lot of times when when when little incidents are accidents what happened, I would we would have those conversations and tell Mom and Dad when you get home Mini.

08:46 Of my dad be most likely putting his hand in his head, But oh my God about that high school car accident. Do you remember taking me to the to the tow lot where the car was?

09:05 Yes, I do. Why did why did you why did you do that? Why did you want me to see the car know that you're driving is a look at what could have happened to look at the look at the wreckage? And that was my grace of God that you came out of that accident was with your life and

09:40 Long-range disability recovering nicely

09:51 So I totally get it, right. I never knew that hard body in the car another story for another. Yeah, that's another story for another day with listing time for me Neil because you do after that asking that you don't have to home tutor and all that other stuff and I had one more year of high school left. And yeah, we going to HighSchool I remember

10:42 Towards the end of my senior year and how do I share with you that I had joined the Air Force and I remember you made the call to a recruiter act like you he can't do this and he can't function without my permission and all that. It was a hard title. The times were tough. I wanted you to go into the military. It was I thought there was too much danger and it was a decision that you made without you can find up and ready to go to be independent.

11:42 Is it send as I wanted to withdraw money from his doing it wasn't an informed decision.

12:18 No, I don't lie about where he had been and stuff like that. Oh, okay. Yeah the travel part yet, maybe two Journeys to you do both of your hometown in my father's Hometown and then that one trip to California. I was I was fascinated about any other parts of air travel because when I mine

13:08 But my brother talked me out of it. So now I got you into it, but he talked me out of it because I really wanted to be here and are you calling back to me? He would just tell me about it. But what he was but what he didn't tell me was about the possibility of a foreign conflict. So, you know have you have not been involved and I remember when I got the call to support the liberation of Kuwait and you know more specifically sharing that news with you and my brothers and then that long drive that long quiet drive to Air Force Base and I always wondered how you felt about that.

14:08 Yo, cuz at the time again, it was me. It was you my two older brothers and my girlfriend at the time and all the time when whenever a car ride has been so quiet.

14:24 Well, yeah, I wasn't angry. I was still very frightened. And I think that was the reason I was so quiet. I was not angry. I was just I was just afraid I didn't want ever to lose any of my children and I feel like I got to put my body in front of them to save their lives. And and now I can't do that cuz he's made his grown-up choice. You know what I do when I really realized you saw me as a man.

15:06 You might have saw me. I mean that you've always see me as your son but when you saw me as a man, I think when you guys drop me off that day, and I checked into my my bill at my room and you you gave me a hug and you basically walked out the conversation even saying to my brother leave him with his girlfriend in in you know, so we can have a moment before before she would say goodbye to me too. And not that you guys didn't think I was coming back but I stopped at that moment. You saw me as a man.

15:44 Yes, I did and I saw you also as a responsible man, not Jeff Station. You were just getting the information that you needed. I was so impressed. I do I dislike it. I just like it but but you know, what I'd has always has been wildered me is when you guys drop me off you ask someone what was the conversation riding home like I mean like you take me out here to this place and there's a lot of activity.

16:44 This this campaign is military campaign. So there's a lot of people coming and going and then I'm setting my wow, man. This is like real Mike my family drove me out here and drop me off and I got to get ya.

16:59 Yeah, yeah. Well, like I said you had all the information that you needed there was nothing lacking in your choice your decision. Everything was perfect. And I knew that you would be well, I just can't I was confident now and no need to question it again Muslim or something, but I asked you and I actually was kind of excited about you know, what what light ahead I didn't expect any danger because I was a feist a flying unit and I never really thought about about being hurt or harm but I was excited about what I was getting ready to do as a as a member of the Armed Forces for

18:00 Yeah country

18:02 Yeah, yeah.

18:04 Transition to another topic that's really really near and dear to me again. And that's that's my spirituality and say, you know, I am thank you as as an adult for taking me to church as a kid and I consider myself to be a late bloomer finding my way and developing my spirituality. And I think one of them is one of the most significant things of my life has been processed the building my spirituality at Morning Star Baptist Church protect me under woman. What is because he was a community figure that was really concerned about about young black men, but even more than that, you know my relationship with Reverend Charles Taylor was you was the real protagonist behind behind my experience in developing my

18:58 Spirituality I never really asked you how you felt about the fatherly relationship that he took on and whether or not it was really okay with you.

19:13 Yes, it was. Okay. I am and you did respected both very much they did have.

19:25 Presence in the community well-known in Godly men

19:37 So I was I was good with that and then the other part of it is in the black church.

19:45 You children who don't have both parents or children who have lost a parent with a Ministry and it becomes more family again at church and in spiritual father and the church.

20:15 Yeah, and I think that's what the Bible teaches.

20:24 Camaraderie between a minister in the country what we call the Bible Belt.

20:40 Church is is is there?

20:45 Mandatory, you can't live in a town and not be a part of a church.

20:52 In my experience commit to a church by age 12 and if you didn't I told you the story about had to undergo as a twelve-year-old and I didn't want to be a part of the church seemed to be searching for a church even at an early age and explain it is I'm just trying to search for understanding about you know, my my presence in this this day and age in the life and you know, one of the I thought we was better than an answer. The question was my spirituality and I had acquired him different knowledge of different types and informal education environment, but

21:52 None of that really spoke to you know, who I am as a as a spirit being so it was good that day. There was a Pursuit for trying to understand what what that meant.

22:08 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think every person has to find his own God.

22:16 I think

22:19 We just we have to find him we have to reach out or find it and I think that maybe a misconception that you know that we have a man walking around and hits in the sky. That's not how I try to instill in you that God is a spirit. It's a power before not necessarily A man in the sky. Yeah, and I got them. And I certainly don't want him to a Bible study. But I don't know if I ever told you I'm part of the reason I bring this up is because how I approach Life as a man is

23:19 Woodland Park Zoo to Charles Taylor. I mean, wow. Wow, my dad Henry Lee camera on my Bio Life by 11th birthday, but he didn't see me. I think you'll be proud of me like a son.

23:43 Yeah, so, you know that. I guess I know that you and the pastor were close and that you know, he died of you and detected you your spiritual growth.

24:07 Caesar and I know you would tell me about it, but I probably should have been more active in that relationship.

24:19 You know, I honestly and I'm glad you said that I think it would have been beneficial to you two to understand the depths of that relationship. But I also will push back and say, you know, those kind of relationships needs, not have a mother's involvement really why I try to to leave it up to you. I can sometimes a mother can be overly protective.

24:53 And I get that reminds me of but that was that was a part of my adulthood and you know, another part of my adulthood was also going back going back to school and you know being an older student going back and I never really thought about whether or not I was going to be able to actually complete a degree, but I remembered I remember graduating from high school and I hope you remember this too. I remember graduating from high school in the auditorium.

25:38 Matthews Arena at Northeastern in 1987

25:45 And I have to ask did you ever think I would be receiving a Doctorate in Education in the same arena in 2019 32?

25:56 Isn't that amazing? I didn't make that connection. But yeah, that's like what is it? What is it?

26:06 Karma's I don't know I didn't expect you to go higher when you graduated with your Bachelors I did.

26:14 I don't know why though, but I just had that that anything that you would that feeling that you would just continue with goalie because it was

26:25 From from me. I know that being involved in his schooling and such as such an interesting probably going to go further you no answer but I didn't know cuz I never thought about it. I know most people do most people don't you have your kindergarten graduation ceremony? And then you have your 5th grade graduation middle school graduate will leasing in Massachusetts. You do a high school graduation and you know, it's funny because I've only really had to adult graduations in my life my high school graduation and my doctorate graduation. I didn't go to my master.

27:25 Graduation the old guy in his you know

27:40 I know. Yeah.

27:45 Yeah, I didn't participate in the graduation either in my own. I just I was just excited parties and you know what if you want I can call him.

28:28 I didn't see that behaving responsibly called for a celebration and I didn't want to get that because you behaved responsibly now you have to celebrate it. I just wanted you to take responsibility and natural because I find it sometimes people.

28:57 Everything is okay. And you at you were pretty good with that. That's that's like I probably couldn't take a couple more pass on the back as encouragement, but I'll leave that for another day.

29:31 I just want to kind of think about this conversation and whatever it might mean to you. I'm sure we'll talk more later. But as I as I think about what we discussed today, I mean we've talked about some of these things before but not in this particular manner. So I'm just curious to know. What wait what you think about about today in this conversation.

29:59 Well, it's something that I've always wanted to question me something lacking something that I didn't do any expected me to do that. I didn't question it and your trust any decision that I laid was sometimes you didn't say, yes, but I'm not comfortable with being recorded or did you can't retract it? Yeah. Yeah, but just is nothing to report.

30:56 But you know, you said something really important and if you ever want to know how you're doing as a mother, you should ask those who know best and that would be me and you know, this is not a report card of your parenting but it's it it if it matters you did a great job of modeling the way as a parent. I'm not a parent my to my adopted daughter, but you know a lot of the things that I apply in my life in my relationship to her, you know, I learned from you so, you know, I don't I don't have any other examples from which to drop so you don't have to rely upon the one that I know know best.

31:39 Yes, I I know I am I never tried to be a father to you though, and I

31:49 Chose to to complete your your marriage. I'm reminded of my father in this moment. And you know it you're right you you allowed us to do some things that he would have never allowed us to do. I'm reminded of the timer when you're stuck us to work with you in one of the local Department Stores of the day and just the best time we thought we were treating the I don't like it was our our our toy room riding bike down the aisles and shooting baskets and throwing balls and all kinds of stuff and my father would have never stood for that. But I am is you and you you and you kind of a replacement for that.

32:48 We have to rely upon for entertainment and we have to rely upon my dad for for discipline. So mostly him and then there was you to kind of soften the blow of of the discipline and I remember those things.

33:17 Yeah, I think I was accused of not being a good discipline person, but I I felt that any activity.

33:29 What's your personality and and I didn't want to suppress that I wanted you to see who you are and discipline for being who you are personality. I didn't want to change that. I liked what I saw. I like you. I like everything about you know, that the whole good cop bad cop thing was model long before I became familiar with the term between you and my father my father for that.

34:07 He was who he was in a bad rap.

34:18 Funny actually disciplined. I know he spoke firmly. But but that was giving you the impression that you were being disciplined. So I'm going to I'm going to end how I started and that is to say yet again. Yeah, we are we at the end of the 40 minutes, so I don't know if I've ever told you this but

35:09 I'm going to I'm going to write write your story one day.

35:13 But

35:14 Do you know why I wanted to do this particular recording? I think I might have shared it with you yesterday.

35:24 No, not both you and I will not will not be here to tell this. Okay, you know The Offspring of of of of you will will be able to hear and listen to the voice of their great-great how to make grapes be applied to a grandmother in this natural life will one day be able to hear our voices whenever God causes causes causes home.

36:09 But Arsenal's that was that was the reason behind it. All I want it. I want to let my presence in this world be known and I want I want yours to be known in relation to me.

36:22 Again, I wanted to say that you live the incredible life to me you have and despite the challenges and hardships and hard lessons when you've experienced you use you met at all with Grayson, and I hope this conversation.

36:42 Thank you so much for that.

36:46 I think it's heartfelt to I think I appreciate it. I believe you.

36:55 I believe you. It's not even make that up is it is the truth in what we have conversations of different types, but rarely do we get to reflect on on young what what I might consider important moments in my life that you had to deal with as a parent. So young so

37:23 Practice. I just have a moment to talk about that.

37:29 Okay, okay, okay.

37:33 I'm talking to Summer now, I am officially and we got three and a half minutes to spare.

37:44 Oh, okay. Well actually in that three minutes I just I would like to say also that I'm very reserved. You know, how what a private person I am. I don't like.

37:59 Wear my heart on my sleeve and you know, I'm like still like Princess Diana Paparazzi following me around, you know recording everything I do and I'm glad we had this opportunity and if the world's great great grandma speak you will ya are capsules African American history. It'll make it

38:41 Yeah, the one thing that I want to say that take longer for us to get from point A to point B from where you are to where you want to be take longer. It's taking a lifetime for me and I would I would encourage anybody to

39:07 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, okay.

39:11 Didn't talk about talk about just you and me but there's other members of my family who maybe maybe we can come together and then talk again we can certainly do that. Okay?

39:31 Okay. Thanks to the good thing.

39:46 8y the time

39:50 Okay, should I just hang up or I know I'll turn it over the summer for further instructions.