Ray Villard and Zoltan Levay

Recorded May 25, 2021 Archived May 24, 2021 40:14 minutes
0:00 / 0:00
Id: mby020716

Description

Ray Villard [no age given] and Zoltan "Zolt" Levay (68) share a conversation reflecting on their work at the Space Telescope Science Institute.

Subject Log / Time Code

RV and ZL begin to share the work they were able to accomplish in processing data produced by the Hubble Space Telescope.
RV reflects on the discoveries that were made through the Hubble Space Telescope and the impact it’s had on humanity.
RV talks about the way the internet allowed the sharing and spreading of photographs taken by the telescope.
ZL says the importance of the photographs processed from the telescope is in the data, not what they're doing with the images.
RV says people wonder if they were making the photos fancier than they really are.
ZL emphasizes that the telescope doesn't make pictures, but data.
RV shares the importance of giving the photographs context, giving it a story.
ZL reflects on the importance of having team members that didn’t have an astronomy background and how it was aligned with the people they wanted to reach.
RV says you cannot underestimate the power of the photograph, and that it teaches people something about the universe they didn’t know before.

Participants

  • Ray Villard
  • Zoltan Levay

Transcript

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00:01 Well, hello. My name is Ray for lard. Today is Tuesday, May 25th, 2021.

00:09 I'm here in Baltimore, Maryland, Home of the Space, Telescope Science Institute.

00:14 And I'm here with my dear friend and colleague. Mr. Result, San Jose.

00:19 And we have worked together for over 30 years. I'm bringing the wonders of the Hubble telescope to people around the world.

00:28 And let me have it off tonight. I'll Partners. Oh.

00:33 Hello, my name is Solavei. 68 years old hard to believe. It's today is Tuesday, May 25th, 2021. I'm retired and moved to Bloomington, Indiana. Beautiful. Southern part of Indiana.

00:52 My conversation partner today is the great Ray Villard at the Space Telescope Science Institute. We've known each other for several decades now and worked very closely together on.

01:08 On disseminating, the discoveries of the Hubble Space Telescope to the world and I'm very proud to talk to Ray today. So take it away or a an introduction to give the trying to get the big picture and what we've been on this project for decades. It's hard to wrap your head around Hubble and the universe the other day. I thought of as though,

01:33 Lewis and Clark exploring the, the great Frontier and the astronomers do at the weekend to do the translation.

01:42 But what we've we've been involved in one of the grandest intellectual scientific Enterprises of the Modern Age, we work together to address the question of all questions is 19, century, biologist, Thomas Huxley, put it, that question is man's place in nature and its relation to the cosmos.

02:06 No together results and I worked on over a thousand, press releases on Audible a record. That would be a long time before that's passed. So we work to dramatic images and words describe. The universe is a place we can do and unexplored is Huxley, put it, but I'll tell you after 30 years. I think I've only scratched the surface Nick and have a great quote that he was felt like a child on the Shore picking up pebbles in the great ocean of unknown Discovery. Like I had pictures that communicate, all wonder and Grandeur of the cosmos and that is what sells has done with extraordinary skill and in the stupidness and these pictures transcend words.

02:57 And I want what I want to add is I just read this this morning. So I wanted to bring the sub, a beautiful Hubble picture came out a couple days ago and Yahoo! Pro Our Daily Grind. A little consequence. Is a little consequence in the cosmos.

03:18 As shown in this incredible photo from Hubble.

03:22 It's a great reminder of just how tiny we are in the grand scheme of things. And after 30 years. I think that's been my number one take away. So what do you think? I would you answer this over? Yeah. Well, I mean ups and downs.

03:44 Chrissy was the problem solved coat in the beginning.

03:49 But actually, which led to the establishment of the Outreach effort and get the word out that the telescope was still doing science and it just grew and into a an amazing effort to publicize the results from album. And, you know, I was, we've discussed many times. It's been remarkable to wash this, this whole mission, and the public response to the mission. And of course, you know, there's so many reasons for the, for the popularity of Hubble and many people see.

04:31 Equate Hubble with astronomy and being done elsewhere. But certainly in the Hubble, is at the Forefront. And I think you understand and all the people in the Outreach effort. You know, it's humbling to think how much are reach the Hubble has gotten,

05:03 And certainly no other observatory in the history of the world has ever reached this many people. So completely. But you know, I got to say given the power of the pictures. Nevertheless. I still want to acknowledge that the writing the words really go hand-in-hand and it's just the Synergy of the story and the story that the words telling the story that the pictures tell and I think both of us and everyone that worked in Oppo in the Outreach office.

05:45 Certainly had it in their mind to

05:49 To try really hard to present this information in a way that the maximum number of people could appreciate it and understand it. And I was always impressed with the with the text that came out to press releases and other supporting tax that was written in a way that did so many people could really understand that much of reporters and editors would put Everyday People when when we went from print to the internet. I mean that was a huge paradigm shift and so we were producing stuck in the beginning, we are producing stuff. We're producing hard copy, the photo lab prints that got just got distributed to news organizations. And even the tax was written in a way really to for the news media.

06:49 For the reporters to write stories for their own ends, but I always was impressed with the writing that it was able to encapsulate. The story, tell a story in a way that when it got translated to different audiences. The gist of the story was still there and it wasn't distorted so much. It wasn't lost the real importance of the story wasn't lost so I had always had a great deal of respect for that.

07:22 Now that I found her, you know, people say why is? Hello. So special. And a couple key ideas. I think souls and me and everybody else never.

07:34 Really never imagined that your directory. This would take that. They would have such a huge historical and cultural and philosophical impact on people. Discoveries amazed us the images of amazes me. You got some anecdotes about that in the past. 30 years for me, is for living. In the science fiction movie story arc, the excitement of launch the tragedy of an optical for the Redemption of a ding. Fix the, the, the Allure of astronauts going up, risking their life fixing album and whatever you fix the telescope that better and better today. The telescope is in better shape scientifically though. It was. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's just an extraordinary Enterprise, but anything now that's a little stories. You have some

08:34 Yeah, there's there's certainly a few, I mean, one of them. I remember is the Hubble Deep Field, which, of course, is one of those observations that really a remarkable observations that it's going to be remembered. His legacy is very, very deep exposure of the supposedly empty space. But as we were preparing that release, a lot of work that went into that getting the data and working with the science team to craft the the story that says, don't go out to the public and the media and this was back in the 90s. So we were still in that sort of hard, copy are the internet was really just getting off the ground.

09:24 But as it turns out just as we were ready to go release this image, plus it was going to be released that up. That's a double, has to make a strong meeting in January. In the midst of this, we had this epic snowstorm. I was, I was snowed in my house for 3 days. I couldn't get out of my house and needs to close. Nobody can get into work and this was before teleworking. So, you know, it was tough and but I have to get this image out to printer to make a big display print that was going to be shown at SS meeting.

10:01 And so soon. As my street got plowed. I've got myself up to the Institute cuz I didn't have access to the data at home. I got up to eat. Do we have to make a hard copy? We had to make a disc, put it on the desk to, and carry to the, to the lab to make the print. So a lot of fun when we had to get that down to San Antonio, so I didn't get to go to the meeting. But I understand that there was lots of people really excited about that. It all worked out, but

10:37 Of course, the most seminal picture after the hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of dollars is worth time. Is the so-called Eagle Nebula Pillars of Creation and people asking about it. It's these three towers that look like boots and desert. And I finally figured out people love it because it's not that anybody expected to see out there. It goes beyond the imagination and that is the power of hobble. And that is the power of the astronomical image to reveal things that you could never imagine. And and and that has had a huge impact that is made. Hello. So famous, the other thing in terms of holding the perfect storm of Felicity, exalted mentioned in the early days of the birth of the internet.

11:27 And this allowed us for the democratization of space images cuz they could be sent around the world at the speed of light. Also, I will behead a digital electronic detectors that are and all your iPhone's today if I could definitely better detectors and you only hold it, but being able to digitally make an image and processes which will which will talk about Consulting his work wonders in the processing.

11:57 To work at the digital image and then give it to everybody is really changed. It was a paradigm shift in in in astronomy before Hubble. It was hard to find, nice color pictures if they were just harder to make and and I think in the early days they didn't have that that much scientific value. I don't know why. Because we think it makes all the difference but I would say to me before, we have just fun at the world. We have to find astronomy for four generations and this all arrests and salt mixture of artistic and scientific skills to make a meaningful image.

12:49 That tells you something and is in this respectful to the signs and that image. There's there's there's a urban legend that we just play with the Crayola crayons in and go see up these things for public appeal. That's like saying you have to go see of the picture of the Grand Canyon Grand Canyon Grand Canyon. But yeah, it's fine, right? Never been available. So like you say, you know, if you got a great subject and you got a great technology. There's not much you need to do to

13:39 To make that a spectacular picture. And yeah, there they are. There are some choices along that you make along the way. There are, you know, better choices that you can make in the processing. But I always I always wanted to be honest to the data. I was wanted to know what the data was telling me and that the images really drop out of the data. It's not that we're at what we're doing to. Those images is making them the way they are. It's what's in the data? That's making you know, you talked about the Eagle Nebula.

14:20 It's only a spectacular picture and I just I just remembered, you know, everyone that saw it for the first time was like their jaw dropped. I mean, it was just incredible and it's hard to Define why that was why it got so much attention. But again, it's one of these Confluence, is it, you know, this Confluence of stuff. I think one thing I was the first image from Hubble that really had that dramatic visual impact.

14:50 It also had some signs contact. I mean, you know, once you started dissecting it and looking at it and understanding what you were looking at.

15:01 Then it made that image even more powerful, you know, sometimes people say people will say why, you know, if you if you pick a part in the image to my just loses its appeal and you know, how people talk about, how to explain, what a rainbow is in a loses, all its its glory. And I think just the office, I think knowing how nature creates these images gives them more power to me. I mean, you know, knowing what I'm looking at in these images, is it just it, if it, an anchor, is it in reality? Otherwise, it's just an abstract thing and in an abstract image to be nice and it can be powerful and

15:50 But if you don't know what, but these are representational image of these are not as tracted actual photographs of real thing, real places. And if you understand what you're looking at, I think it has more power and has more dinner. Just as you know, you mentioned the Grand Canyon, you looking at the Grand Canyon doesn't it have more meaning if you know that this took millions of years to make this thing and all the different layers and what they represent in the ages. They represent to me that gives it more power with other than taking away the magic from it.

16:26 Videos. People don't feel that way, but do anyway, and opportunity to be able to work with these images and not. And muesli thing is that. I also, I also was also grateful to work with the people that we had the option for crying out loud. We work with Nobel prize-winning scientists, and

16:56 Some of the more we're just really get her down to earth people and some of them were a little prickly at times and could be hard to work with, but but it was all amazing and some for someone like me who study astronomy major and it was a real honor to work with some of these people that I have known about before and none about their work and how they contributed to astronomy. And so, it was an amazing honor, actually, interact with them, work with them on this.

17:40 Now, there's an interesting parallel with what salt is done, historically in the late eighteen hundreds. There was a philadelphia-based artist. Thomas who does extraordinary, paintings of Western landscape photography. Vocativ. They captured the nation's attention and they helped Inspire Congress to establish, Yellowstone Park.

18:13 He revealed the Splendor of the West would that transcended any oral description that you could put together. So pictures, either Moran's, or what cells has worked on these internal characteristics. Have an emotional power and qualities that are often associated with art. And the thing that frustrates both of us, people say is that what those things really look like right? When she making them look fancier than then they then they are. The work is done, very carefully is to capture the essence of an object.

18:51 It's the wrong question. What does really look? If we know these things really, really, really did. See these colors and shapes with our eyes. We wouldn't need a Hubble Telescope being with question to say, what they look like, because I was working a particular way. I have a particular physiology that responds in a particular way to the scene with a camera, has a different response and you can make a camera that mimics the way. We see what you what you really want to do is make a camera that can see what we can't see, and that's what Hubble Is, that's what the telescope is in. The cameras. Aren't they provide a way of seeing things that we can't see with their own eyes.

19:38 That's the real power of these images. That it's, it's a different way of looking at the universe and other missions. That's what. That's what always sort of frustrates me about. When people associate all of astronomy with Hubble, Is that there's this whole universe of a science out there and Nobles one, part of it, and, and Hubbell works with other observatories to unlock the secrets of the universe. And every, every, every technology has its own Niche. That it's the best and how old's happens to be a pretty wide near to Compass. Has a huge amount of what the universe has to offer.

20:22 That's part of what part of the power of of these images and the results are a byproduct of the science. The science really is all about the data and analyzing the data and making discoveries based on that data. The pretty pictures are integral to the to the science, but there really a byproduct to toast, it wasn't built to make pretty pictures of telescope built to do signs. And fortunately, that's the kind of data that that is possible to make these kinds of pictures. Not every telescope, not every observatories fortunate enough to produce the guide of data that makes these kind of pictures. I mean, look at the radio, they produce great science and sometimes it come up with some

21:22 Pictures. But

21:24 The gamut of the kinds of things, they are able to look at is is somewhat narrower than what but almost is fortunate to be able to do. So again, it's been a great honor to do this.

21:39 Tomorrow from a pop song Morning Has Broken. But the media picked up on this recruit a new camera and back in the early 2000s. I'm going to quote from this New York Times editorial, which I think is in compasses. The impact of oval in New York Times wrote in there. Is this other Universe 1 Hubble discovers with astonishing Clarity objects for the simply overpowering as forms as colors. These objects are entrancing.

22:35 And I couldn't write anything like that. The incredible impact of the power of the image, which is all said tells you something about the science. It's not just pretty pictures for t-shirts and posters but it's a Transcendent and giving us a new vision of the universe and frankly, impacting again, going back to Huxley are our philosophy in overarching, view of how miniscule we are in in, in a compulsive Universe. If it's allowable within the laws of physics and chemistry. It's happening somewhere and Hubbell has uncovered all this because I can see that has never before been cap.

23:25 Yeah, but I want to make a point that you alluded to the the weather, this kind of dichotomy between the visual in the scientific content that we always tried. Real hard to the point. I want to make pictures, most of the images of we made were really made, not just to make a pretty picture, but the illustrate.

23:56 The discovery to science results and the word that went along with the words to describe. What the, what the the basis of the science result of the times, the images may have been a little bit different from what you would do. If you were just producing a picture to make a, make a pretty picture because you wanted to bring out features in the image that Illustrated the points that the scientist wanted to run to bring out with their, with their findings from the from the analysis of the Hubble. And so, you know, it is, in fact, the images were again, they were a byproduct of the science and they were intended to illustrate what the science was not just to make pretty pictures. It's just a great.

24:49 Coincidence. That the images were so Spectacular. Now, not all of them. I mean, I keep I keep going back to these. We had a running joke about fuzzy Point fuzzy, red dots, right? A lot of the results were about these extremely distant objects, that Ava was Finding and other observatories are finding another so far away. Is it in the images? They were just little red dots. And how do you make a, how do you make an image? That people are going to react to? If, if what you're talking about has a fuzzy. Why you can't go to put out a fuzzy Red Top picture sometimes but we did try to

25:34 Try that, but again, you know, you got to make an image that shows that fuzzy red. If it's all about the fuzzy rat. Then you going to make an image that they're really shows that fuzzy rat. It's got to really nail it so hard to do that. Sometimes it was harder than other times but it was always a challenge with all the details. I mean that was not an easy image to work on and it was it was not a not the really visual kind of image that people might react to because there was really a bunch of fuzzy patches in the sky and it was hard to distinguish between what was real and what was not real. What was the noise produced by the camera?

26:25 And you know, what was a real Galaxy. So we we worked pretty hard on that to get that too. It to be the way it was but everybody is pretty happy that the science team was pretty happy. They be published in the science papers. That's that's kind of, you know, I thought it was important enough. Scientifically to publish a color color image in in the paper and announcing the results from the first results from Aldi gratify.

27:04 I said it was like it's been like living in a science fiction movies. So there were days. I imagined us is Captain Kirk and Mister Spock is very great risk to his credit. I can't trace him enough for a reverence quality of the size image and I know it is it is driving them nuts over the years. When some wise-ass reporter, those colors will even between us some discussions. I mean, the comment that the, that was going to hit Jupiter before the impact. We had a picture. We wanted to show up Albert, Jupiter and the Comet approaching the approaching 2.

28:04 So we had a picture from Hubble showing the string-of-pearls right to straight up, that has broken apart and Ray wanted to have this of the Comet approaching Jupiter.

28:20 And I thought, you know, that's fake, pray that you aren't going to believe that and it was fake, but we put it together and it was kind of convincing. We didn't ever say that it was an actual image. We said it was a composite, right? So, you know, we had full disclosure but I thought it in the end it worked but we had some discussions about that kind of thing. Yeah, but he was coming or how do you engage the public? How do you bring the public into this and engage them to the extent that they will pay attention? And and that's was always mine. I was always, you know, and you know,

29:20 Actually, it's of how Ray and then the other Riders were able to do that and we have great brainstorming sessions. So, you know how to come up with ideas of how to do this to some of these some of these stories were so esoteric the science was esoteric and there is no real, you know, if there wasn't a really good image. How do you explain these things? These off-the-wall things that are in a black holes are even more intuitive and some of the things that that people are coming up with and explanations of how some of these phenomena were. And so, you know, we also had a great team of illustrators that came up with great illustrations that showed out of, you know, how these things work. And, you know, that was a fun.

30:10 Another fun aspect of the work that we got to work with. You is very, very talented people. And the video, folks. They just came up with these these great great things to do these illustrations and I saw, it was our fun. It was, it was tough them. Time to do it, right? But concerned it which we worked hard on and brainstorm as a team, especially today with the internet for people will look at something on their smartphone. And if it doesn't click with in a second or two that they're off to another page and then this, what's the dis was the motivation behind Jupiter? Comment picture, which I know the story.

31:10 Sing for Jupiter. I could never really get a picture like that from the ground from other anything that we need to do context. And that picture was the phony, as it was was used everywhere and we would have fun. I mean, again, sometimes I would tease just for teasing, I say this enough. I had that picture. I can you photoshop. I could get rid of that crap and five minutes because he he was the decision but except for that many. But there were times when things got bogged down a little bit and

32:04 In committee, but the interactions with NASA, that's another whole area which was in some ways rewarding and otherwise frustrating, but but certainly it was a group effort and I think the input from many members of the group were extremely valuable and extremely insightful, you know, people coming at it from different directions to whether you're a, you're a 3D modeling expert or Graphics expert Rider or, you know, that these are all different perspectives. And they all had value to add to this, to this effort. And that was one of the nice things about it. Was this, the Synergy of all this and, and people that didn't have any particular astronomy background, you know, we're coming in and, and, and that was very valuable. Because we were, we were producing things for the community that had no astronomy background. We weren't making these

33:04 These releases to go to the astronomy Community. We were doing them for the public who may not have ever seen anything like this, would ever heard of anything like this. And so it was very reliable that people on the team, that that didn't have as much as running back on. A lot of them learned, a lot of us from you, but that was, that was fun and it was fun to be able to and I am. I also enjoyed it because I did have an astronomy background, and it was really interesting to talk to the people that were actually doing the signs, doing the analysis and hear how they were doing the analysis.

33:49 And hear how they were teasing these results. Sometimes very, very

33:55 Cutting out me. This is this is world-class science. So think science. So they were doing cutting-edge science and sometimes you know, they were they were developing techniques analysis techniques or brand new. And so it was really interesting to hear how they were doing these things and how they were come up with the answers are coming up with. I was one of the things I really liked about the jobs talkin to the scientists and around the world and you know, it wasn't just local people. When do people that work at The Institute. It was people all over the country and all over the world. And that's the great thing about the modern the way signs of done today.

34:41 You know, being halfway around the world, same as being in the same room. And so, on really Hubble when Hubble start out, it wasn't still wasn't like that so much. It was kind of a challenge to work with people all around the world. And so that's another thing to, like, the internet development of the internet, really facilitated. Not just the dissemination of the information, but the Gathering of information science was done over the internet and you noticed, all the data got this world.

35:17 So that was the fun part of it.

35:22 I will credit soul to we were the, I mean there were a bunch of space observatories, but everybody remembers son. They remember how good we were the first out of the gate and the ways. So, treated these space images set, a new standard, a new Benchmark for, how are sister, observatories would handle Imaging data and I do hope, which I repeat to astronomers all the time, the lesson one of the legacies of Hubble.

35:53 Is that you cannot underestimate the power of the astronomical image? It is transcendent, people love it and an emotional, visceral level of philosophical. Some people tell me, they don't care about the science. They just think the picture is cool and tells him something about the universe. They didn't know before, and I'll also say I've my whole career 750 years was kind of boring.

36:29 But I really wasn't happened over the past 30 years, blows my imagination, and although it's a daily job. I still can't put my arms around you and I still feel like a little kid in the office and wonder, and mystery of it all the lifetime of the Hubble hard to imagine. When we started that this would, this would happen. You know, I figured it was just another state Mission, you know, it was certainly came in, with was a great expectations of revolutionising, the world of astronomy, and I'm not sure I completely bought that, but as it turns out, it was, it was true, but did Revolution as people keep saying

37:29 But it was certainly gratifying to see how it resonated with the public as well as the science Community night. I was glad to be kind of in both can and working with the astronomers but also being able to disseminate this information to the public in general. And so there was a lot of fun having having grown up with astronomy, basically, and being kind of a of your head at the same time, loving the technology and loving the equipment. And but this is Canada. The bad part, is that you can't touch this, the astronauts that worked on it, you know, got to shake the hands of the people that's touched at all. But that was how was another right? We we got to, we got to

38:29 And I would watch those servicing missions.

38:33 At work drama incredible, but you know, it's just been an amazing ride. This, the people that I worked with us. That's the biggest thing but you know, I'm doing a lot of retrospection. I guess it's been, it's been a great ride.

39:08 What's Fin Fun tails is a very accomplished photographer and those skills translated to the Hubble images. I've always been in love with photography too. And I never thought I'd wind up working on history's, most powerful and amazing. And, and it's crawling camera cameras that have ever been built. So that I was Legacy. And we've had it, we've had an extraordinary opportunity and we had a wonderful relationship working together. Again, trying to answer Thomas huxley's question. But what is the meaning of it? All? What is our place in the universe and Hubbell has given people new insights into that.

39:54 Yep. Well, it's been a great privilege working with you and everybody else on the team and I'm glad I had that opportunity extraordinary.

40:09 Okay, great.