Recording - 08-18-2023 21:55:37

00:01 All right. Good evening. This is Mark Swiontkowski speaking to you in Albuquerque, New Mexico. We're at the annual meeting of the 20th Century Orthopedic association, and I'm here with my friend and colleague, Dr. Mark Weidenbaum from New York, who has been in the organization how many years, Mark? 2219. 2001. 2001. 22 years. And he's just here to offer some recollections of his mentor and sponsor, Dr. Ron DeWalt. So let's just start with. When did you meet Ron?

00:36 Well, I still call him Dr. DeWalt.

00:38 Okay. Sorry, that's my bad. Dr. D. Yeah.

00:41 And I met him when I applied for his fellowship, and that was in 1986. And I was coming out of residency.

00:49 Residency where?

00:50 At Columbia, New York City.

00:52 Okay, Right.

00:53 And so I came to Chicago and I interviewed with him. And it was obvious just from the interview that he was a little different from other people.

01:03 We'll talk about that more, I'm sure, but go ahead.

01:06 And I was ecstatic when I got the fellowship. And so then I came as a fellow from 86 to 87.

01:14 Okay, and then you went back home?

01:17 Yes. So I finished my fellowship and then I went back. Yes, home to actually at Columbia Affiliated Hospital called Helen Hayes Hospital, where they were going to start. There was a plan to actually make Helen Hayes, which is a rehab hospital, into a regional spine center with New York State funding and backing. And I came back to be a part of that. And that was great until the second year when the state pulled the plug. And then I went to the main hospital, to Columbia, and I've been there since.

01:46 Okay, well, that's great. And so let's just dive right into it. You said he was different. So tell our listening audience how most people listening to this will have never met Dr. DeWalt. So how is he different?

02:04 Well, you could just tell from talking to him and meeting him that this is a guy who's interested and interested in you. He's not just there doing, you know, something for the sake of doing it. And you could just. He looks you in the eye, he asks you questions, he listens to the answers. And that carried over when I became a fellow. And I saw the way that he interacted with everybody, the way he interacted with, number one, with his patients, and, of course, with his staff and the OR crew, et cetera. And he was. He was a gifted individual. First of all, he was a master surgeon. I mean, he. I saw the spine better under his. When he was Operating than I've ever seen it before. And you can learn better when you can see better?

02:54 Yes, of course.

02:55 So that's one thing and two is that he was a Renaissance man. He would, he was a tough, tough guy. I mean, you better be sure that you did what you were supposed to do. But he would listen, he was open minded. If you had an idea that was a good idea and you could convince him, he would adopt it. And he wasn't regimented in that way. He also was very, he was very knowledgeable, like I said, a Renaissance man, not only about healthcare, but also non healthcare. But for example, you'd be walking down the hall and Mrs. Jones is an inpatient and she's on ditch. And he'd say, well, what are the five manifestations of ditch toxicity? And he was, he wasn't asking you because he didn't know or this patient, is it Vater? What's Vater syndrome? What are the treatments for the various forms of Voda, etc. And he was like that with everything. If you sent off a biopsy, he would say, did you look at the cells yourself or did you just trust what the pathologist said? If you ordered a myelogram? In those days, we did myelograms, but MRI scans, did you go to radiology and see them do it? Not just read the paper on your desk? Kind of the nature of his, of the way that he was. So he, this was not a superficial guy, right? Very, very thoughtful. And the other aspects of his way was that he knew how to talk to people. It didn't matter if you were an international wealthy superstar or if you were a dock worker, it didn't make any difference. He found a way to communicate with you in a way that you could both relate to each other. And so that is truly an art and a skill. So I learned certainly as much in the office as I did in the or, you know, from that kind of stuff. And I think one of the most important things that I learned from then was he always, always gave the patient hope. And we had some tough customers and people with some very difficult problems. And he never would take away the, the patient's ability to hope for something to improve, even in situations where it was very, very unlikely. And his patients loved him because he was straight with them about what the truth was, but still would say, listen, I don't think this is going to get better for a while. Or he would even say, I've never seen this get better in my experience, but you never know. There's Always new technology coming, etc. So that was really that combination of great surgeon, knew how to talk to people. Also common sense. And common sense, as Mark Twain says, is not so common. Ability to communicate, talk to the nurses in ways that he was never domineering or, you know, difficult, but you had to do what. I mean, he was, like I said, he was tough, but he was fair. And so I couldn't ask for more.

05:58 Sounds like he had indeed a profound influence on your career and on your practice. So we're here at the 20th century meeting, and you've been a member for more than a couple decades. And so tell the listening audience how he approached you about joining this organization and what your thoughts were.

06:19 Well, I didn't know about it when he approached me because it's a small society. And he told me about it, and I was floored. That was very flattered that he would ask me, you know, to. That would tell me about it and be willing to sponsor me. And certainly this is one of the. One of my favorite organizations. People here are just. Not only are they accomplished professionally, but these are nice people, and they're like a whole new family of friends. And so when he offered this to me, I was more than ecstatic. And I've always been grateful. My wife Lisa and I talk about it every year, how grateful we are to Dr. Dewalt opening up this for us.

06:58 Right. Yeah. So one of the things that's characteristic of this society is that the leadership and the membership committee pays a great deal of attention. That is not only regional balance, but also subspecialty balance. Who are some of the other renowned spine surgeons who are in this organization that you've had academic and personal relationships with?

07:24 Well, there are a number, certainly Keith Bridwell. Keith has been a member for. Well, before I was. And, you know, Keith is. Keith's a storied, well, internationally renowned spine surgeon. There are a number of others. More recently. Muneesh Gupta.

07:41 Yes.

07:41 Came actually, we sponsored him. I recommended him. And so the number of spine surgeons in this organization is relatively small. I was saying to somebody today that sometimes we spine surgeons feel like we're the black sheep, but that's probably true everywhere. Yeah.

08:00 Yeah. And there's always. Well, not always, but certainly in my professional career, there's been a tenuous relationship between spine surgeons in any department, orthopedics. And I can run the list of great colleagues that I've had a chance to work with. Paul Anderson and others who are brilliant, brilliant surgeons. But sometimes it's difficult because your world, your patient population, your world of diagnostic entities and problems are unique and separate, and there's not a whole lot of crossover. But that doesn't mean that we can't learn from each other and how to approach problems with surgical problems or diagnostic problems or data problems.

08:47 That's one of the things that's so great about this meeting, is most of the meetings that we tend to go to are in our own specialty. And so this is not. And so this is a chance to cross fertilize and to learn from others. And you realize that, you know, just because they're doing it that way for that, you can use it for this way, for this. And it's really a mind sort of expanding opportunity. Not to mention that the quality of the presentations is just the baseline is so high that you know that whatever the talk is about doesn't matter if it has anything to do with what you do, it's going to be a good experience.

09:20 Right.

09:21 Interestingly, speaking of education and learning and Dr. Dewald was interested many years ago in trying to create what he called a core curriculum for the study of spinal treatment of spinal deformity. And it's always, you know, his thinking was, you know, spine deformity is different. It's different. It's different from other types of spine surgery and certainly very different from other types of orthopedic surgery or neurosurgery. And it was kind of a struggle because even when he was President of the SRS, I think it was in 1988, you know, he was trying to push this rock up the hill of trying to get agreement about an SRS core curriculum, which has never happened. Although now, more recently, I think there is a push for that. But it is kind of a different. You're right. It's a different body of knowledge.

10:08 Yeah.

10:09 But it's obviously constantly evolving, and we certainly have a lot to learn from our peers.

10:16 Right. Yeah. Well, I'm sure that Dr. DeWalt has influenced many, many, many individuals. I can't imagine the number of fellows that he's trained. He's got to be 50 or more.

10:29 Yeah. I'm not sure. I was 25. And as a funny caveat, I was thinking that. So Dr. Dewald had a couple of rules. One rule was the bear is always right. And the number two rule is see number one. And his motto was Trust no one. And he applied that across the board. And that was part of the reason that you should go look at the cells yourself and you should go see the way the study is done. And so the other Paul Austere and the other fellow and I, we were. I remember we were. We would have weekly conferences about cases and stuff, and with Dr. Dewald and towards the end of the year, we would propose doing this, and Dr. Dewald would argue with us, and we would argue back and back and forth and back and forth. And finally, Dr. Dewald one day said, what's the matter? Don't you trust me? And we said, no, you're the one that told us to trust no one, including you. So he goes, yeah, you guys are done. Next.

11:29 That's a great story and kind of a great way to end this interview. I thank you, Mark, for letting the listening audience, I imagine the majority, vast majority of whom will never have had a chance to meet Dr. DeWalt. And he'll have a sense of what a great educator and great person he is. And I think it's definitely worth listening. So thanks so much, and thanks for being such a contributing member of this organization. Appreciate talking to you this evening.

12:00 It's been an honor and a privilege, and I greatly appreciate the opportunity to do this. Thanks so much.

12:06 Thanks.