Richard Mussler-Wright and Jane Zink

[00:04] RICHARD MUSSLER-WRIGHT: Hello. My name is Richard Mussler Wright. I am way too old. I'm 56 years old. Today is Sunday, August 21, 2022. We're here in lovely Boise, Idaho, and I'm with Jane Zink, a co worker and friend. Jane.

[00:22] JANE ZINK: And my name is Jane Zink, and I am also 56. Look at that. And today's date is Sunday, August 21, 2022, here in Boise, Idaho. And I am here with Richard Mussler Wright, my friend and co worker.

[00:38] RICHARD MUSSLER-WRIGHT: Anyways, I guess we're here. I thought we'd have a great conversation about early education, because that's a great topic to talk about.

[00:45] JANE ZINK: It is. It's the most important topic to talk about.

[00:48] RICHARD MUSSLER-WRIGHT: It is a very fundamental one, I think. Anyway, I tell you what attracted me to early education was I participated in two things. One is I participated in the United Ways poverty simulation years ago. And one of the takeaways from that was that the number one demographic for poverty are single women with children under the age of five. And it's kind of a mismatch, because typically, if you think about poverty, you think about maybe the stereotype of the veteran on the corner or something like that. It's single women with children age five. And the reason why is they can't work because they're taking care of their children. They don't have access to childcare. So that was one thing that motivated me. But I have a story which is I had two little ones at one point in my life, and my wife and I were fortunate in that we had jobs that were very supportive of children. So for the first few years, we were able to adjust our schedules so one of us could always be at home with the babies. And that was awesome, awesome experience. We didn't see each other a lot, but we had a lot of quality time with our children. But there came a point where both of our jobs were going, hey, we need to work out the schedule a little bit differently. So we were forced into a position of looking for childcare. And we were new to this game, you know. So we did a curse research. We found some childcare situations near us physically. And I remember. I remember dramatically, we went to this first one and, oh, my goodness. So, I mean, it was a childcare, and they had signs and things. It wasn't somebody's house, but it was. And we go in and there was basically a huge backyard with. With sorted playsets and things laying around. And there were two women. And these women, I swear to goodness, they were Thelma and Louise from the Simpsons, Marge's sisters. Right? Literally, they had blue hair, and both of them were chain smoking, sitting at the back porch watching the kids. And so now, both my wife and I, I worked in education, and my wife is a professional. So we were asking questions like, so do you have a curriculum? What sort of activities do you do with the children? That sort of thing. And again, swear to goodness. Thelma goes, well, you know, the kids, they just go out in the backyard and play. We just watch them. They're fine, you know? And we were sort of aghast and didn't know what to say, and we excused ourselves and left. And my wife literally curled up into a ball and started crying and not calling her out. It was just that she goes, my children will not go to this place. It was so awful. And we had two or three or more of these experiences before we finally landed on. There's a nonprofit preschool which is actually rated by Idaho stars. They have a quality curriculum and clearly a very different environment than we were seeing at that point. And it gave me a lot of empathy for people. We were fortunate that we were able to get our children into this preschool. They did a fantastic job. Again, they had some direction, a very loving environment, and felt very. And to this day now, my daughter is 20. To this day, they have kept in contact with this preschool and with some of the folk that are still involved with it. So it speaks volumes about just the importance of preschool and childcare. And I, you know, a lot of empathy about people who couldn't find that or didn't know what child quality care looked like, you know, just. Just through circumstances.

[04:39] JANE ZINK: I love that. I love your story, Richard. And part of it is because I kind of a similar story about, like, how a connection with a child care can, can last for so long, right? It can. Like that unique relationship that childcare programs have with families and, like, how you can. They can become part of your support system in a really personal way that even your kids, 17 years later, right, are still connected with that organization or want to support that organization. So I have a kind of a similar story. So I grew up as the last of five kids, so I had no experience with small children or babies, really. And I was a young parent and not a parent by choice. And so I came with my husband, we moved out here to Boise, Idaho, and I was seven months pregnant and starting graduate school. And I met some women in my classes who took me under their wing, like, right away, and they really helped and supported me, like, in my, I guess just becoming a parent and learning how to be a parent. And so when it came time for my child to go to preschool, which was three, I was looking for a place, and my friend said to me, well, what are you looking for in a preschool? And I said, well, I don't know. I don't know what I'm looking for. And she said, oh, well, if you want a place where people, where kids learn that school is a great place to be, it's safe, that learning is fun, that having friends is fun. Like, she recommended a preschool, and it was a cooperative preschool. It was $50 a month, and that was way outside of our price range, but we figured out how to do it. And that cooperative preschool, you had to work, right, a couple times a week in the classroom. And the people, the other parents that I met there became the same friends that I have now. I've had them for so long. So same thing. That connection with that place results in so much more than just care for your children right then. And then my daughter, when we went to, like, the meet and greet, go to the classroom and check it out before preschool starts, we went and I had a three year old, and I had a one year old, and, like, all the kids were playing and my daughter wanted to be held. And it was so strange to me because she wasn't like that at home. And, like, I remember feeling, like, so embarrassed because all of the other kids were playing and she was not. She was, like, clinging to me, and I was feeling embarrassed about her behavior. And I just remember feeling, like, what is wrong with her? And what is wrong with me? Like, feeling so inadequate from that one tiny little thing. And another woman in the group came up, and I must have been just radiating, like, negativity because she came up and said something like, hey, look at my kid. She's been coming here for five years because of all of these other kids that I have. And she's, like, right close to me, so, like, it's fine. And just that idea of someone seeing you and recognizing that you're stressed, it's like it just felt it all drain away. And again, it's like the power. It's the power of really good childcare. And I got the best parenting advice ever from that place because my daughter was not a joiner. So she would come to preschool. She would sit down, hold her blanket, and watch the preschool happened. And I, again, my inadequacies, my insecurities as a parent, I projected those things onto her, wondering if there was something wrong with her or something wrong with the teachers. And when I would come, I would look in the window of the classroom and she would not be interacting until she saw me. Then she would jump up and pretend like she'd been, I mean, it's mortifying to even say that right now because, like, she was three, right. But that's what was happening. And so the teacher, there was a woman old enough to be my grandma, for sure, beautiful white hair, bank street educated. Her name was Margaret Arnold. And I asked for a conference so that we could fix my daughter and teachers could do their job. And it turns out that the advice she gave me changed my life forever because she just took my hand in hers and she said, this is what we're going to do about the situation. And I was all ears. And she said, you're going to leave your child alone. She's fine. She's an observer, and then she's a joiner. And there's no stress. Like, there's nothing stressful about the situation for her except at drop off and pick up. And that is advice that I tried to use. And again, it wasn't just the one life of one kid and one parent. It was advice that changed my life, my husband's life, everybody I've told that story to, and all my other kids.

[09:36] RICHARD MUSSLER-WRIGHT: Again, a very profound experience.

[09:38] JANE ZINK: Super profound. Right. But everyday action. Right? Every day, little tiny thing making such significant changes for people. And I think that's a power of early education.

[09:46] RICHARD MUSSLER-WRIGHT: Yeah. No, again, I'm sincere in my, both of my children have maintained relationships with this nonprofit. For example, they had a fundraiser two years ago and my son was the featured violinist at it, so.

[09:59] JANE ZINK: Oh, wow, that is so cool.

[10:01] RICHARD MUSSLER-WRIGHT: It's kind of neat that they've made maintain that. And periodically they'll reach out and interview them, like where are you at now? Sort of thing.

[10:07] JANE ZINK: So, yeah, I love that.

[10:08] RICHARD MUSSLER-WRIGHT: It's very exciting. But to look back, I mean, to me, the two themes here, one is just access to early education. Right. Because again, we're more fortunate. We're in Boise. It's a big city. There's opportunities here, even though we can talk about the quality of those. But that's sort of the second theme is the relatively good or poor quality at different childcare situations.

[10:31] JANE ZINK: Right. And I think, I guess I believe that another thing I learned from that preschool is that every child deserves a year as a three year old and every child deserves a year as a four year old. Right. In a safe, nurturing, stable environment. And whether that's at home or whether that's someplace else. And I do think that it's really heartbreaking that people who can pay more are more likely to have access to that experience for their kids than people who can't pay as much. Because, as you said, the option isn't even on the table, not only in terms of accessibility as far as finances, but accessibility in terms of your location.

[11:11] RICHARD MUSSLER-WRIGHT: Exactly. In fact, I went to the Idaho Indian Education summit this week, which is a meeting with all tribal representatives talking about education on the reservations here in Idaho, and talked to the representative from Oahe, and they don't have any childcare there. And in fact, she brought her children to the summit because, yeah, there's no childcare there. So what do you do? Right. You know, but again, we're fortunate in that sense. We have some access to it here. But, yeah, I don't know. Quality. I can't speak too much to it. Again, I can remember the day my son went to. Well, they give you a kindergarten readiness test when you go into kindergarten.

[11:53] JANE ZINK: Yes.

[11:53] RICHARD MUSSLER-WRIGHT: And so, for example, you have to hold three things in your hand. Right. And it was hilarious because, like, my son's like, oh, yeah, I can hold three things in my hand. You know? And he knew his letters, he knew his numbers and all those sorts of things. Right. He was. I mean, it wasn't much of a test for him now. But the flip side of that story is now, my mother in law, she's a retired teacher, and she's taught every grade, k through seven, every subject. But I remember having a conversation with her about, she would work with kids in kindergarten and first grade who did not know how a book worked, didn't know how it worked. We're not getting to letters. Like letters and numbers and things. What is this strange thing? So just simply amazing.

[12:35] JANE ZINK: Yeah. And I think that we think that's a rare occurrence, but it may or may not be. Right. I live in an area of Boise that is kind of undergoing a renaissance, but for a long time, the neighborhoods were very transient. Right. I know a person who worked in a public school who in the second grade, and she would say it wasn't uncommon at the beginning of the year and the end of the year to only have two children left in the classroom from the beginning of the year to the end of the year because so many families moved in and out. Right. And I think that. I think sometimes we just don't. We don't really understand or even have, like, we don't hear the stories of people who are really different than we are. And I have done that some work, like teaching parenting in the women's prison and, like, that whole experience with what early childhood looks like, right. When you're incarcerated or prior to your incarceration, especially if you live in a family where you may or may not necessarily want to have your kids spending their early childhood with people in your family, but you can't afford access to a childcare. It's just how stressful and how complicated. And frankly, like, I sometimes wonder how, like, why is it like that?

[13:49] RICHARD MUSSLER-WRIGHT: Yeah, that could be a whole separate conversation, right?

[13:54] JANE ZINK: Yes. Or why, you know, what? Again, like, what are our, what are our priorities? And how do we given, like, we work in a nonprofit, right. That's really advocating for every child to have a safe, stable, and nurturing start. And within the parameters of what we can do, what do we do that's more likely to make that happen for.

[14:21] RICHARD MUSSLER-WRIGHT: More kids right now if we look at our experiences. So, for example, you sent your children to this cooperative preschool. What's your single most, I don't know, vivid memory, like a positive memory of your children going to this preschool? You shared one.

[14:38] JANE ZINK: Oh, yeah. I think that so many of my. So I had four children go there, and they were all really different people, but I think just the little. I love watching kids unfold. Right. Unfurl themselves into the world. Right. And when they first understand, you know, how to reach out and make a friend and how to be a friend. And positive memories are my son. The preschool classroom was divided into carpet and linoleum. Linoleum was food and fine motor, and carpet was gross motor and the door to outside. And about the second day of preschool, he vowed never to go on the linoleum except to eat. So he didn't go on the linoleum most of the year, but he did go on the linoleum to make me a mother's day something.

[15:32] RICHARD MUSSLER-WRIGHT: Okay.

[15:32] JANE ZINK: So that was a win for them.

[15:37] RICHARD MUSSLER-WRIGHT: You see, it was kind of exciting. Like, I had a number of just great memories of the nonprofit preschool my children attended. But it was so exciting because they had a little graduation ceremony, and this was the first of many graduation ceremonies. Right. But what was cool was that, you know, he did the rehearsal. There was a rehearsal, right. And then there's a rehearsal dinner, and it was a big to do to graduate from this non nonprofit preschool, right. And they had mortarboards, and there was the whole rigamarole. So it was very exciting. So they all, they all really had a shared sense of accomplishment coming through this program. So. But it kind of speak volumes to about the content of the program, they did a lot of field trips and that sort of thing. And a lot of, you know, again, what are very tactile experiences. Right. Yeah.

[16:28] JANE ZINK: And I like working in that cooperative preschool. Again, that was something that only some people could do, a privilege you could do. Right. Because they either a flexible work schedule or they weren't working at all. Right. But it was such an honor to be in that classroom because, you know, as the helper, what you did was do the dishes, set out the snack, wipe down the tables, read, whatever, but you didn't. And it was always so fun to see, like, the macrocosm of humanity when those 17 or 20 kids in that one classroom, right. Because you see all kids from all different walks of life because it was affordable. Like how they manage conflict. If they were introverted, you know, if they're spending 1 hour writing letters to a post office, and then you've got kids like my kids, who are not going on the linoleum to use a pencil, that's not happening. And so I love the, like, you can almost see the future, right, when you're in a preschool classroom, because you see everybody's personality doesn't mean we can say who they will be, but we can. You just get. You just get. It's just like a. It's just like a peek into the future. And that's what I love.

[17:39] RICHARD MUSSLER-WRIGHT: It kind of is. And I get that, in fact, because it's been interesting watching my son grow up because he's always been the same person. Right. You know, he's a. He's physically changed, but I knew who he was from his time at preschool. But come to that, back to the point where just access and affordability. I attended a non profit preschool, and that was our thing, was that, hey, anybody can come, we'll find money. We're accessible to everybody. But for that very reason, I think they had three or four year waiting lists to get in. And somehow we were fortunate. We just happened to hit it at the right moment. Like, oh, we happen to have an opening. You can get in. But again, just extremely fortunate we were able to get in. And to this day, they still have a multi year waiting list, which is weird. I have. I just did a presentation at BYU, Idaho in Rexburg, and they have on site childcare at the university there. And parents will actually register their children when they're born. Get on the waiting list. Right. Which just. Whoa. You know, because if you wait till it's time, then you're not getting in.

[18:48] JANE ZINK: Right. Right. And why, you know, as lucky as you were and I was to find a place for my kids in preschool, it's like, why does it, I mean, it's, half of it is chance, right? But half of it is knowing how to position yourself so that you have a better chance than other people. And again, it's like, it's not, that's not the road to giving every child what they deserve to have when they're little.

[19:15] RICHARD MUSSLER-WRIGHT: But again, I just, yeah. So I just have so many warm memories. This nonprofit preschool, for example, they did a foam, a foam table where they cover it with, like, shaving cream foam. Right. Have kids play in it. I just remember both my son, daughter entirely covered in shaving cream, right. So it was hilarious, right. But they had such a great experience, and they both carried that memory with them. Another one was that both of my children are, they love costumes, both of them. In fact, my daughter is doing the, she's working at Disneyland with the college and doing a college internship there. But she was a snow white for probably two years. She just wore the snow white Halloween costume every day. My son was Superman, so I think for a solid year, he wore superman. I think that transitioned into Batman, but very good. Yeah.

[20:03] JANE ZINK: I had a son who wore cowboy boots and some sort of a, maybe it was like a silk handkerchief cape for many years. And then my add a daughter who very, very much her own person. This is where the advice that I was talking about comes in handy. So she would come to priest, she would get herself ready for preschool. There was no helping her do anything. And she would, she would put her shoes on backwards. She put on a pair of tights, and she'd put her shoes on backwards. And I'd say, your shoes are on backwards. And she'd say, my feet like to feel that way. And then, okay. And then she would, usually she would get a t shirt, but not a t shirt her size, her brother's t shirt when he was two years older. And she would put it on and she would spend, I don't know, as long as it takes a two year old with tiny hands to tuck the t shirt into the waistband of her tights so it looked like she had an inner tube under there. And then she would say, I'm ready.

[21:06] RICHARD MUSSLER-WRIGHT: All right.

[21:07] JANE ZINK: And so we'd get in the cardinal and we'd, and we'd go to preschool, and that's what, that's what she wear. Maybe leggings, not, but it was. And, you know, I just, I just let her be. And I, and again, I was, I was thinking, like, what harm does it do if she's wearing that big t shirt tucked into those leggings?

[21:27] RICHARD MUSSLER-WRIGHT: Right. But I can see your point. Some people might go, oh, my goodness.

[21:31] JANE ZINK: Yes, yes, yes, yes. And I remember we were standing in the doorway at one of those new classes when, you know, everyone's kind of looking, watching the three year olds get to know each other. And this woman said to me, which child is yours? And I pointed out my kid with the inner tube t shirt, and she said, oh, she must be a Leo. Now, I didn't know what that meant, but now I know that it means that that's your astrological sign. And it makes total sense what she said.

[22:02] RICHARD MUSSLER-WRIGHT: So Leo's like inner tube.

[22:05] JANE ZINK: Yeah, yeah. Leo's love. Leo's love. They love themselves. They love the world. They're in love with life, in their big personal, I mean, this is what I have gained, but I'm not an astrologist. Let's say that right there.

[22:19] RICHARD MUSSLER-WRIGHT: But you get it. You get it. Oh, okay. Yeah. So here, both of us have warmed, we have very different, these are different preschools we send our kids. And it sounds like we have good, warm memories of these experiences, you know, moving forward. How do we replicate this experience for others?

[22:36] JANE ZINK: Well, that is the, that's, I think that's the, it's a, it's the question. But it's also like we have to start asking that question seriously, right. Because I feel like we, we kind of keep it in the philosophical realm about what children need instead of thinking about how we can deliver that and admits the science of early childhood. Right. And then it's mixed up in the culture wars of the country, and then it's mixed up in the funding and who's going to pay for it. And so I don't know how we're going to do that, Richard, do you?

[23:19] RICHARD MUSSLER-WRIGHT: I don't know. I mean, there's models. And again, like you said, you could look at it academically or philosophically, or you can look at other places. What they're doing.

[23:30] JANE ZINK: Well, look. And what we're doing right here in Idaho, I mean, what we're doing with talking to communities and saying to communities, what is it that your community needs so that every family is healthy and whole and what do they need? And how can that translate into a safe, stable and nurturing environment in school for young children so that they become ready for school? I mean, I think that we are actively working to solve, not to solve the problem for other people, but to ask them what they need and come up with a plan that's going to be uniquely perfect for their community and the children who are three there and the children who are four there, and the children who are five there. And so I think with the collaboratives, that's what's happening.

[24:18] RICHARD MUSSLER-WRIGHT: Are there things we can do with parents and families?

[24:21] JANE ZINK: I always think that parents and families are the key, that understanding what families need, talking to them more, asking them more questions, and seriously listening to their answers and affecting, like, acting on those answers. If it's possible to value every family's strengths, to say to parents, even parents who are in prison, it's really interesting if you have someone who's incarcerated and you ask a group of women who are incarcerated, let's talk about your strengths. The room is so quiet, you could hear a pin drop. But when we're talking about the amazing qualities of their children, then we can talk about their children's strengths, and then we can talk about their strengths as a parent. Like, no parent is perfect. We're all flawed human beings, but we all have strengths. And it's so critical, I think, as people who work in the system, systems of early education, to recognize that all children, all children have strengths and all parents have strengths and to help parents remember that, because sometimes they forget and they forget because there's so much, there's so much noise out there in the world around parenting. There's so much contradictory information, right? Vaccinate your kids. Don't vaccinate your kids. Feed your kids organic. Don't feed your kids organic. You know, do this, don't do that. Right?

[25:44] RICHARD MUSSLER-WRIGHT: It's all part of that culture world.

[25:45] JANE ZINK: Sleep train your cat. Sleep train your kid. Don't sleep train your kid, you know? And so they forget that. They forget that they have strengths or they just don't recognize them. So it's our job as people who are working in these systems to notice their strengths and to name them and to explain how that their strengths as parents are contributing to the success of their kids.

[26:05] RICHARD MUSSLER-WRIGHT: Right? So now let me loop it back to our story. So I assume you read your books to your kids when they were little.

[26:10] JANE ZINK: I did, yeah.

[26:11] RICHARD MUSSLER-WRIGHT: And what was your favorite book to read today?

[26:13] JANE ZINK: Mister Willoughby's Christmas tree.

[26:15] RICHARD MUSSLER-WRIGHT: Very nice. Wow.

[26:16] JANE ZINK: Yeah, came by special delivery. How about you?

[26:21] RICHARD MUSSLER-WRIGHT: Oh, my goodness, there were so many. In fact, you said Christmas, and then it drove the title out of my mind. We actually turned it into a play with Idaho theater for youth. Oh, and I'm trying to remember the title, but it was told from the viewpoint. Oh, it was the mole family Christmas?

[26:43] JANE ZINK: Oh.

[26:43] RICHARD MUSSLER-WRIGHT: So it was told from the viewpoint of moles. They'd heard about this fat guy in a red suit who gave gifts. And the problem was, they're moles. They can't, they're very short sighted. So they just wanted the telescope.

[26:53] JANE ZINK: Oh, that makes sense.

[26:54] RICHARD MUSSLER-WRIGHT: So the wise old owl told them, oh, yeah, you gotta talk to this guy. He'll fix you up. So, well, how do you talk to this guy? So they had to create a set of circumstances that the fat man in the red suit would visit them. So it was a great read and a great early, early story. But there were a number one. There's a. Again, now I'm gonna. There's Barnabas. It was about a mouse. It was a pirate mouse. It was just awesome, you know. And there's a book by Charles Remy that actually I grew up on. I've retained, I have all my children's books that I had when I was a young person, but in the title of it, I think, was called arm in arm, but it was booked from the sixties, so it was a very pop art. Yeah.

[27:35] JANE ZINK: So we had. Every kid is different, right?

[27:38] RICHARD MUSSLER-WRIGHT: Yeah.

[27:38] JANE ZINK: And one of my kids, my youngest, was like a. He was big into construction, right. So it was the world of. It was a time of vhs.

[27:49] RICHARD MUSSLER-WRIGHT: Yeah.

[27:49] JANE ZINK: And maybe a 30 minutes construction video that, you know, that would be the treat at the end of the day, is to be able to watch the construction video over and over.

[27:56] RICHARD MUSSLER-WRIGHT: And we have making buildings and things.

[27:59] JANE ZINK: Yeah. Like digging things. And like being able to name some kids. They can name every single dinosaur. Right. You could name every single piece of construction equipment. And at some point we were lucky enough to have some significant road construction in front of our home. And I always laughed at those men. Must have thought I was a construction groupie, because I could walk to the end of the driveway, I'd take my chair, I'd sit there, and he'd either be in the stroller or just there, just like agog what was happening. And I spent many, many mornings doing that. So we read a lot of construction books.

[28:35] RICHARD MUSSLER-WRIGHT: I have a story just on theme about that, because they replaced the sidewalk in front of our house. So the first step is, you smash the old sidewalk. They had a backhoe. They were smashing the sidewalk up. And both my kids were little guys, and. And I don't know what possessed the construction works. Hey, you want to give it a try? So my son was probably five at the time, and. Sure. So he put him in there showing how to do it. And he was, he was smashing the sidewalk. And I just remember his partner, the construction workers partner, was just horrified. I don't know our insurance covers. It was a great memory my son had. So he was actually able to run the construction of.

[29:16] JANE ZINK: That's good. Yeah. Well, that would put him in the hall of fame as far as my kids were concerned.

[29:20] RICHARD MUSSLER-WRIGHT: Oh, my gosh.

[29:21] JANE ZINK: So when you think about early childhood and what children need, like, I wonder what. For me, the area where I had the most to learn or the most opportunity to improve is, like, being able to talk about and handle my feelings, because I didn't really learn very much about that growing up in my own home. And so I had, like, really good mentors that, like other women in my life, as well as people in preschool and childcare who, like, I could learn as the kids learned how to talk about neanderthals, love feelings, I felt like I was more able to identify and able to talk about and handle my own feelings. And so do you have anything that you learned from childcare that you think helped your family in a concrete way?

[30:11] RICHARD MUSSLER-WRIGHT: I'm thinking about that because earlier you had spoke to watching the little guys make friends and learning these abilities, if you will. That's what I observed, especially my daughter, who really is, she is a very outgoing person, egarious person, but she needs to have alone times. And I think sometimes in her life, it's been hard for her to make friends. But she learned those skills, I think, in preschool because she learned to bond and interact with people and have good friends. So that was an important skill she developed. It wasn't so much about learning one, two, three, although they learned all that. It was, it was more about those, those interacting with others. And I think that was really important. And, oh, here's another story. So with my daughter, who also went to this nonprofit preschool. So she had a good friend who was the daughter of one of the directors of the preschool, and, and the daughter had a business making necklaces or something, right? And this inspired my daughter. So there's a, there's a local business called made in Idaho here. And they were doing like, a maid night hoe. They invited people to come in, kind of like pre etsy sort of stuff, right? Like, you'd go sell your wares there. And Amelia threw herself into it, my daughter, just wholeheartedly as a little guy, like, I want to have a bit. In fact, she named it Clefuddy, which is a dish we made at home often. And it was Amelia's Clefuddy. You know, and she would sell the things that she made at this, you know, because she just. But this was something she was inspired by and learned at the preschool.

[31:52] JANE ZINK: So.

[31:52] RICHARD MUSSLER-WRIGHT: Yeah. You know.

[31:53] JANE ZINK: Yeah. Yeah. I think when I think about my, I mean, there's a lot of conversation right now about what it means to be ready for school.

[32:04] RICHARD MUSSLER-WRIGHT: Right.

[32:04] JANE ZINK: And we know here in Idaho that I think it's like one in five kids is ready for school or it's really low statistic anyway. And that the definition of ready for school is really low. Right.

[32:19] RICHARD MUSSLER-WRIGHT: Eleven letters of the Alphabet hold three things in your hand.

[32:22] JANE ZINK: Yeah. But what I remember is about my children's preschool experience. Like, did any of them know how to read? I really don't. I really don't know. I can't remember.

[32:36] RICHARD MUSSLER-WRIGHT: Right.

[32:37] JANE ZINK: But did they all know that school was a great place to go, that you could meet new people who are going to be kind and love you? Did you know that your teachers would care about you and encourage you and that you get to read books and experiment with things that you maybe couldn't experiment with? Home, that's what they learned in preschool and they were all successful students and not drawing a line between that and the other. But I guess I'm just saying as a parent, what I remember about being ready for school is more about being exposed to what's a good experience is in those early years, that kind of is a launching pad for future learning.

[33:22] RICHARD MUSSLER-WRIGHT: I totally. So I'm old, right? So I can. I didn't.

[33:26] JANE ZINK: You're not that old. I am so you're my age.

[33:28] RICHARD MUSSLER-WRIGHT: So you're totally, totally older than me. But I can actually remember because I did not go to kindergarten.

[33:34] JANE ZINK: Oh, I didn't go to kindergarten.

[33:35] RICHARD MUSSLER-WRIGHT: I was insanely jealous of my siblings, who, because I'm the oldest and they both got to go to kindergarten. And it's like I didn't get to go to kindergarten and I didn't go to preschool or I was never in a childcare arrangement. So I can remember, and my parents weren't very involved in education, so going to school was very terrifying. Now, I enjoyed school, don't get me wrong. But I can remember those first days. I can remember the first day in elementary school. I can remember the first day in middle school, first day in high school, because I didn't know how it worked. I had to figure it out on my own. And that's why I'm hearing what you're saying. So if nothing else, my children knew, actually, I think both of my kids could read by kindergarten because we're very book oriented family. But I think partially that is also because of the preschool we went to, because they're very book oriented, but they knew how school worked. And so I think it was a much easier experience for them because of that.

[34:36] JANE ZINK: And one thing we always talk about in that supporting the whole family health is the opportunity. You know, preschool is pretty low stakes, or can be pretty low stakes in.

[34:48] RICHARD MUSSLER-WRIGHT: Terms coming back to thumb and Louise. Yeah, yeah, that sounds like a Yeezy business, right?

[34:55] JANE ZINK: Well, low stakes in terms of the pressure. Like, like you're probably not going to be held back as a three year old to repeat three year old grade three. But it's a great opportunity to help parents engage in the school setting because so many parents have so much baggage around school. They grew up in school. They were shamed. They were blamed. They were made fun of. They might have even been abused in school. And so they have a lot of baggage around it. And so part of the role of an early childhood classroom teacher can be actually helping them heal that trauma of their own school experience if it wasn't positive and not pass that along to their child. You know, when we can appreciate the fact that a parent just opens up a child's backpack, like, that is a huge step. Whether they take out the folder and sign the paper, that's another step. But the fact that they're not afraid to look in that backpack or they're not afraid to answer a call from a teacher because it brings up all the stuff that they went through is like, it's just a huge opportunity that really can affect the trajectory of, literally of, like, generations of people.

[36:05] RICHARD MUSSLER-WRIGHT: Yeah.

[36:06] JANE ZINK: And that's what we want to be working toward.

[36:08] RICHARD MUSSLER-WRIGHT: It's interesting. This is a related story. So this weekend, the Idaho western Idaho fair opened, and Friday was Idaho Stem day. So it was a free day. And I was down there actually volunteering at the STEM action center or ecosystems tent with different STEM activities and science and technology, engineering, mathematics. And so a lot of the people that I interacted with were homeschooling around schooling parents, in fact, almost all of them, and we would have similar conversations with them. And, you know, and I mentioned, like, some of, one of the programs we work with is ready for kindergarten, and it has the word kindergarten in the title. So immediately that population turns off, they're going, oh, my gosh, kindergarten. That's a government. No, no, no, no. Forget about that word for a moment. It's really about things you can do as parents with your kids. And that's what this is about, you know, and then they would turn. Oh, oh, okay. It's like the stuff we're doing right here in the tent, you know, it's like, it's not this weird government, this scary. And you mentioned the word trauma, traumatic thing. It was really like. Yeah, don't let the word scare you. It's really about working with your kids and reading to your kids and doing really, really positive things. So that's good. Yeah. What's going to be a bright future? I think.

[37:32] JANE ZINK: I think so. I think we know what we need to do. And there's so many people committed to young children and their families. I mean, we have to do it.

[37:45] RICHARD MUSSLER-WRIGHT: Well, you know, if nothing else, because at some point, I don't know. Do you have. Are you a granddaugh? Are you grandpa?

[37:51] JANE ZINK: No, not yet.

[37:52] RICHARD MUSSLER-WRIGHT: Okay. I didn't know. Yeah. So my children are 20 and 16, so, you know, that day might happen, you know, I don't know. You know, but at some point, we're going to be seeing the next generation, and if not with our own children, with other people's children, you know? And I just want to. Again, coming back to these stories of people who don't even have access or even if there is childcare or early education, they can't afford it or they're.

[38:16] JANE ZINK: Afraid to use it.

[38:17] RICHARD MUSSLER-WRIGHT: Oh, yeah. What can we do as individuals to change that? So, yeah.

[38:22] JANE ZINK: Yeah, we can all do something.

[38:24] RICHARD MUSSLER-WRIGHT: Well, anyways, I think we're about out of time. I wanted to. Jane, I want to thank you for being here today.

[38:31] JANE ZINK: It was so fun.

[38:32] RICHARD MUSSLER-WRIGHT: And I appreciate you taking me up on this invitation. So thank you.

[38:38] JANE ZINK: And I appreciate. I appreciate your honesty and your vulnerability. It was a great conversation.

[38:46] RICHARD MUSSLER-WRIGHT: Thanks to you guys, too.