Rick Winer and Reza Nekvmanesh

00:04 Hello, my name is Reza Nicki Minaj. I'm 43 years old. Is it today's date is Monday March 2nd? 2020. I'm here in Fresno, California. And I'm with my friend my comrade my colleague Rabbi Rick Winer.

00:20 I'm Rabbi Rick Winer. I'm 55 years 54 years old here on Monday, March 2nd 2020 here in Fresno, California with my friend colleague partner in all sorts of wonderful Endeavors resident camenisch. Awesome. So, you know Rick I was thinking that it'd be awesome to have a conversation.

00:45 Just about I don't think people realize that when it comes to really doing Interfaith work that there are a great Partnerships that are happening and I'm sure they happen in many cities and a national level but I don't think that they'd get to see what happens or hear what happens when we're not in front of a camera or in front of a dice or wherever it is that we are but that we actually work and appreciate each other as human beings and not just in our roles and I was wondering like what what made you get involved white? Why? Why do you care so much about being involved in Interfaith work?

01:25 You know from the time that I was young and listen to my Rabbi talk he talked about the the relationships with especially a Protestant Pastor nearby that he was close friends with and then the image that always comes back to me in my decision to pursue professional religious. Life is always the image of Rabbi Abraham Joshua heschel, you know, I was going to go marching along side of Martin Luther King in Selma and you know having they they just were at the Edmund Pettus Bridge again with John Lewis in the midst of battling pancreatic cancer was out there again at the quote when I was marching my feet were Pride so, you know, Rabbi heschel was was was cited.

02:25 44 coming down from his Ivory Tower of he was a thinker and and professor and and theologian and they said why do you come down from your Ivory Tower to march with dr. King in and he said when I'm marching with dr. King my feet up and rang and I

02:47 You know there were years and years where I thought yeah, that's inspiring. But that's that day is gone and then that moment really when you and I and our in our buddy Pastor DJ Criner from the saint rest Missionary Baptist Church, when the three of us arm and arm were marching through the capitol rotunda and Sacramento, I'm sad that these extreme needs for civil rights are necessary, but I'm gratified that we have these Partnerships which as you've noted it's it's deep care friendship enjoyment. Love of our partners people people see when we have advanced or when we March but they don't see when you and your wife and your

03:47 Friends are fun in the Gaynor frolicking through the Blossom Trail yet today, you know, what is home watching my Facebook or Facebook, but it was beautiful because I was like, you know, these are people that are working together to bring about understanding awareness love acceptance power to communities and they're like literally skipping through a Blossom Trail, you know it. Okay. There was no skipping going on. I just want to say I'm sure there was that it's been decades since I skipped probably Elementary School PE when they say they were great happy beautiful photos and and most people will probably look at that picture and say, oh there's some for friends getting together, but I know that those for friendships while they are friendships now they started because you guys started doing work together to bring about change for all of our communities and you and I and and our wives Lawrence to can we have that same love and friendship.

04:47 It was Nikki and our our friend and colleague negeen who teaches peace and conflict studies at Fresno State. I don't remember who all was on the panel where you on the panel there was the time where she had a hurt her students were expecting to meet with this multi-faith religious panel and because it was peace and conflict studies. They thought they were going to have to mediate between the religious groups that were not going to get along and then they walk into the Hall where we all were and see us hugging each other as work as we're greeting each other cuz we haven't seen each other in in weather was days or months and they were shocked that wait. Wait what's going on here? No. No, we actually really like each other and so it is completely blew their minds at it's it's terrible that we have to keep reminding people that were actually friends, but it is a good thing to say to

05:47 Allow people in the crowd glimpse into what actually happens between leaders in different communities to see that there are people that are building relationships for any whatever purpose but but our relationships, they are built on friendship and values and the fact that we all care about one another but if they're also based in something really deep that all of us want to bring about a greater Justice for everybody around us and it's amazing to be able to do that with your friends rather than just somebody who shows up in an event cuz that goes away. We've talked about it a million times, you know, if it's not built out of friendships out of deep relationship out of care and love then you're still going to show up in March, but then you're going to go home and that's it, but we don't just go home and that's it. We care like I care what happens to rabbis Rick and Laura, you know, like I care so it makes a year.

06:47 Huge difference. So now when something happens to the Jewish Community a terrible thing happens for me like I'm immediately thinking what's up with my brothers my sisters my, what's up with them? Like what are they need rather than just do that really sucks. Somebody shouldn't go March.

07:06 You sure can.

07:12 Interfaith relationships and Mike

07:16 No, do you want to watch both cuz his story is really awesome too. Cuz when you wear it when your son asks you this is all going to get cut out I imagine right? So we're just back and forth. Okay. I know I would love to answer it.

07:30 Tell her I would love to yes. Oh, so for me, I've always cared about doing social justice work. I've always cared about bringing about awareness. But like many other people that are boxed into a religious tradition for me. I only did social justice work in the guise of what's the best for the Muslim Community. That's where I was a long time ago. I thought you know, I want to fight for Muslims. I want to stand up for Muslims the Muslim communities under attack and then it was I don't remember when it when my shift began or when I can't look at the point and say this is where I changed but all of it changed through relationships all of it change the relationship. So while I didn't hate Jewish people, I didn't start really caring about Jewish people until I had Jewish friends and while I didn't hate any particular group, I just wasn't around any particular Faith whether they be

08:30 Strong Christians because you know in college being around Christian.

08:38 Activists. I didn't have a space I was pushed out. So I never really cared. I was like, yeah, I want social justice for everybody. But now you go do your thing at some point when I started building relationships with people is when everything changed for me and I will say that while I don't know when that happened I do know that in the past six or seven years is when it really heightened in me and that's because of the clergy caucus that were part of this because of faith in the valley, that's because of the Interfaith Alliance that's because of the interface, It's it's about all the different times that I sat with people and did good work or revolutionary work or love work and we were different faiths coming together. So I don't know where it shifted. I don't know where to begin. I just know that I had to pull myself out of the box of I'm fighting for my people to the fact that I'm fighting for my people, but my people is bigger than the Muslim Community.

09:37 And I came from a really Progressive background where Interfaith work was something that I hoped for and expected and my first Urinetown my my success in Interfaith was meeting AA

09:55 Subgroup of pastors from the Northwest side of town who were not really nearly as

10:11 As I say colorful, but I don't mean that in skin color. Although that is the case but colorful in just overflowing personality and in we go back to our of at that time was faith in community the community organizing group and and I sat in a meeting at at Westside Church of God on one of the African-American churches and listen to the the normal pitch of the organisers who like to encourage you to get involved in Grassroots things that sound like they're probably coming from somewhere else and and the pastor's around the table said no. No, I want to we know what we need is this and the organizer said, okay, then that's what we're going to do was perfect and I met some of those pastors I met you Reza and and and

11:11 Didn't take long for us to go to lunch after meeting and go to this and go to that my wife and I love going to the Islamic cultural center for the events there. I know I have no doubt that we show up at the Islamic Cultural Center more than some of the members and some of my Interfaith friends certainly show up at the temple the synagogue more than some of my members and and we love each other you'd mentioned my son sometime after coming to Fresno. He said Dad you've changed I said, what are you talking about? He said you're always like marching and going to these rallies and things like that and yelling at politicians. I said, I haven't changed. I'm finally getting the opportunity to do what I went into this for and

12:08 I think I keep coming back to in the work that we share in this pursuit of Justice. We find that we're not absolutely 100% aligned on every issue, but it's so close and but the work is exhausting it is so exhausting. But when you do it with friends the hug that comes with the March and the the dinner with your colleagues and lunch and all of that it gives you the the not only bodily nourishment cuz oh my God, the Muslim Community feeds you really well as good as a Jewish mother and but it also gives you the spiritual energy to keep marching on Big Time.

13:05 I think that.

13:09 There are times where I don't even know if I want to be in a space or I'm tired of being in so many spam tired of standing on the same damn corner all the time fighting for the same things. I've been standing on how to shine black cylinder or or Blackstone and Nees for you know, 20-something years and sometimes I'm like why the heck am I here anymore? You know like I don't feel like I'm making an impact. I don't I don't know if anybody's listening and then it's those, you know reassuring moments where you're like one here with my brothers and my sisters were all fighting for the same thing. And even if I don't get to make the change that I want to make right now, I know that I'm building something bit better in the future and it's only because of the relationships that we have and that were able to say, okay and then like you said, we don't agree on everything we we agree on we agree on most things the things that we don't agree with that's left for another day.

14:06 You know when when you and I can't work on the same issue or if I want to be at a program that you might not like or you want to be a program that I might not like or you might want to push a policy or I might want to push a policy or a politician or whatever it is. You know, we can do that like neither of us are going to cut the other one off because we have a deep enough relationship over everything else. First of all, as I said over over our friendship, but over the work that we do that when we disagree we are also compassionate in a way that it's like right. Well, that's where they're at at that time in and we're not going to like start hating on each other over this or that issue. It's also really rare the disagreements a really rare, you know, I look around and I'm sure you have this abuse Islamic Center. We are far more aligned on a whole lot of issues political issues and such between each other between you and my other friends with Islamic Center. Then I am with some of the members of the synagogue truck. We have a wide range of what they are in and I try to keep

15:06 Politics out of the synagogue cuz that's necessary there. I think we share that to some extent and I'd like to bring up an example like cuz one of the things that we have We're Not So diametrically Different in the position, but when we talked about for example, Israel and Palestine, we have some differences of opinions, but but they're not something that would force us to like disrespect or hate each other and those are the conversations we have in private. So when we do have something like that that we may disagree with we still talk about it. We are actually but just not that's not the thing that I'm going to go out to the public and and and argue or debate over a an issue with you because that's small right that the that but I'm going to have but we've had those conversations we've had our conversation. We've had the conversation we make jokes back and forth, you know what might be careful because not everyone knows one more joke. That's what I'm saying. Is that like they're there is when you are when you care about

16:06 Somebody and when you believe that you have a you want to make a big change that when you're out there fighting you're out there fighting whatever you're fighting and when you have disagreements you coming you talk and I would say even on the israel-palestine issue were far more lines, but people don't believe it when we say it over and over we say the same things. I'll never forget when when we had speaker in town who was kind of pushing some of us on this and you had to leave early and then I remember you you texted me you want me to come back. I don't want you to leave you alone after this. I have I walked out by that point and enough already. Let's go get dinner. That's right. People never get to see those things.

16:57 Right, and I don't need them to see it. I didn't I don't we don't do that to advertise. But the fact is that they don't get to see that a Muslim and a Jew are willing to stand together and fight even if it's against what looks like our quote-unquote own Community. The reason yes, I agree that I I don't need people to see that but the reason I like people to see it is because I think we serve as a model that can be inspiring knowing that we're not doing it to be inspiring our friendship is because it's our friendship, but if there's the added benefit that it can Inspire others, we had this leader of interfaith relations come in from DC and he was amazed at how ya Rabbi Jack McLean from the Interfaith Alliance nationally was really impressed by the breadth of the interphase.

17:57 Engagement, it's not it's not unusual that you might have a Jew a Muslim and a Christian get together. But then you add the layers that we have in the amount of people who come together and we really work hard to try to get even more brats and men and women and gay and straight and are brought Alliance standing up for all of them. That's right. Another great example was when dr. Robert sellers had come like it over a 3 the chair of the parliament of the world's religions and he had come to like three different events. He came and he spoke for the human rights Coalition. He came to the Islamic Center when we had lunch at some point. I don't remember when and here's this person who who chairs the largest Interfaith organization in the entire world, and he's he was quoted in our Fresno Bee which is moving and

18:57 Changing so often but he said that Fresno has one of the most active. I don't remember not active was not the work he used but one of the most productive or active Interfaith Community ever seen in the world. So when he said something like that, you're like wow, this is amazing because we have we have a lot of things to not be happy about in our city and our community and this is something it's one of the only things that gives me life and I've been wondering cuz I've analyzed a lot whether the fact of those those challenges that you mentioned helps us with that kind of thing cuz where I came from before the liberal Bay Area, which I love I think perhaps we took for granted that oh, yeah. It's easy for us to talk to people who are not like us and we didn't do it here in Fresno that the phrase that I keep thinking about is where I was before you could sweep the problems under the the rug here in Fresno. We don't have a rug big enough.

19:57 And so there are so many challenges that people and people have not written them off throughout the city. There's so many people who care and we get the opportunity as religious leaders to represent a lot of those people who are more than happy to have us yelling at politicians instead of them were standing on the street quarters instead of them, but we do it

20:25 Nothing

20:28 I I think that if I could go back and just reiterate something you said that I said so many times is that in in the Bay Area, you know, obviously there are problems but everybody knows there's problems and you have a vast you got any huge number of people working to you. No fight. Those Evils are those problems in Fresno are our problems are huge and visible. We know who's against us. We know who wants to tear us apart. We know who doesn't want to support our families. We know who wants to make life harder for immigrant communities and end for the oppressed or the marginalized communities. So I think it allows us to like because it's so easy to see that this is a problem we can get together so easily to fight it where is if you have you no problems that are not as visible or not as prevalent. It's a little bit difficult.

21:28 Do you like I don't know if I stand with you on that moment. I don't know what I can do. It might be a little bit more difficult. And then finally it's not just about being able to see the problem and wanting to work with it, but I don't I don't know if people realize that in Fresno no matter where I want to get in Fresno. It's easy. You know, where is if you're in LA or the bay, it's a very difficult to be at everything cuz everything's an hour and a half drive because five miles five miles where in Fresno I can we can go to TBI and go to St. Rest and iccf all in like an hour and like right have a 10-minute conversation at each place will maybe an hour and a half. But but the point is this very easy to get around and were able to be there for each other cycling event coming up Progressive not party at Progressive. I don't know religious engagement activity the next yeah.

22:28 Is your talking that you know, okay. So if you're cooking you want to pick up quality ingredients and I think one of the things that we really benefit from is some of the people who were I think even already ahead of us and and then encouraged us to engage in the Interfaith World Arts are really good people who were open-minded to begin with and so those of us who also want to participate in open-minded religious dialogue and and are interested and willing to listen to others it encouraged others. So I think that that just continues to breed high-quality Interfaith engagement. That's right because you and I have both seen it

23:28 Where Interfaith is a Catholic and a Protestant? I remember you telling me about when you learned that one of the community organizers wasn't Christian no offense to to our Christian friends. It was much more welcoming as a Muslim because you know, most of our world that you and I deal with is Christian and it's really nice to have that commonality. I mean who would know that that for me a Jew having a Muslim to I want to see a party with but that's not the way it's it's so much more fun than that and for you I think the same way, you know that there are times where it's it's you and I Against the World

24:25 For the world and you know, I mean in in so many settings that you're not in like it's like what am I breaking points? Like, you know, like one of my bud and one of my very close buddies is the rabbi. Not really how does that happen? And I'm like well because we're human beings and we look at each other as dignified individuals that have the right to live and love and and and working so I definitely will. You know, even further leads me beyond the social justice around that brings us together both you and I are involved in religious engagement and religious engagement in America is a challenge today and part of the reason it's a challenge is because there's so many barriers him and that's not the way we function and both you and I I believe do what we can to engage young people and to to push back the

25:25 Traditional hypocrisy of religion and so when we can dispel the myths when people walk up and say wait wait, that's not how are Muslims supposed to act that's not how it true or Rabbi is supposed to act. Yeah, right. Well, I don't know what you were expecting but this is the way we act welcome to the religion in Fresno in the world. Yes. Oh, that's right. Do you what it what is like what has been one of the most difficult things in your past. Let's just keep it within the last 6 Years cuz Faith in community activism and and the caucus what has been the most difficult thing whether it's in the Jewish community in your own family or if it's I mean with our broader group, what's the most difficult part for you?

26:15 Being somebody that's at the Forefront of interfaith engagement activism work organizing.

26:27 Well, they're still setbacks. I mean, they're still moments where I walk into the room and

26:38 I get real frustrated when I see.

26:41 People who I think either don't get it or are choosing to look at the negative. I'm we had a real tough one few months back when when a friend of ours was trying to kind of do Penance for his style of Christianity. He felt bad and I think you know for you and I it was a non-issue, but for some of our other good friends who felt like it was not their realm of Christianity that should be apologizing they were offended and it it really threatened to tear our our group apart. And I know you work very hard to bring people back to the table and and and at the same time you another friend of ours who is a Native American

27:41 Lesbian religious leader

27:45 Feels marginalized in traditionalist Christian circles and I think most of our friends and colleagues are more welcoming than she realizes but we don't always have that hard conversation either so

28:09 Trying to get past those really challenging and then there are times where I realized. Wow. One of my friends really does believe so differently that I rarely rarely ever have to say we're going to have to agree to disagree and yet in some of those cases I do and it's tough cuz we never have you and I never have a disagreement that feels like it's substantial or your mom got svini or that never never feels about so like I think let's not count everybody counts and everybody matters, but let's not talk about like the very right-wing

28:59 Group of folks in in our community, but what about like just the average members at TBI at Temple Beth Israel. Do they ever think you're a sellout or wonder why you are so willing to put her ass Lamar Christian on the front door to Hell below out record note to help raise the Torah, which was an amazing night for me that was in by Staind so but did you have anybody say you're a sellout or you're you're selling us out or you're a punk or any of those things that they like to her? Let us generally not there few things here when they're one of the biggest issues because what we do get a lot of publicity. They think I'm spending a lot more time doing it than I actually am. So I've had to like analyze how much time I'm spending with the Interfaith world and say, okay really this is like less than 10% of my time and don't forget that when you hired me you said you wanted us back in

29:59 Interfaith world

30:03 Two quick things. When when I chose this year to have our group. I'm to have the synagogue March in the in the Fresno pride parade for the first time and really it's it's more problematic because it happens on our Shabbat on our Sabbath. I got only one push back from somebody who is just not lgbt-supportive, but our synagogue is very supportive. But you know what you were alluding to the the service that we had after the synagogue was attacked in Pittsburgh, which was one of the most powerful moments of my life that the way people came together for that and I had very last minute like while it was happening. I was making the decision to I knew I wanted to read from our Holocaust Torah scroll and I knew I wanted it held up. So everyone could see it and I decided I knowing that I might take Flash.

31:03 That I would have my brother's you and our brother DJ the black Baptist preacher. Hold up the scroll.

31:13 Not one negative comments on nice. It was the opposite. I mean that was when people lost it when people were crying and knew that it was powerful. So where is most important the community has been outstanding and and I always feel that when I walk into the Islamic Center when when I am so warmly welcomed there. No, we both get a little bit of pushback. You get some might make it. So my time is the interesting pushback I get is bye-bye very or they think they're very hardcore Muslims who come to the interface spaces that I invite them into hoping that I can pull numbers cuz you and I are always competing over how many Jews are Muslims are in the house. But but when I bring them into those spaces and I tell them that it's an interface space that everybody has and then it feels

32:13 Very Christian, you know in the way they in that I get people coming back to me all the time. Like, you know like that. I'm a sellout or why would I invite Muslims into a space just for them to be indoctrinated into Christian thought or and and so, you know, I know how to respond to those things, but sometimes I feel it to you know, sometimes when we sit and have a an Interfaith prayer times or clergy time you no end and somebody will share a prayer from their own tradition without any consideration to who else is in the room cuz I still want people to be hold themselves right? But but I want them to be whole and them self and sincere while still understanding that we're not all in the same geological space. I have tough time sometimes. Yeah, it's been really gratifying though to see some of our hardcore friends. Yeah, absolutely shift.

33:13 Language and learn to do more inclusive kind of prayer. So in the end some don't and won't but not from your company. Nobody comes and says you are sell out.

33:26 Well, I would say no one who has any significant power is out in the community know they're mostly grateful. That's awesome and impressed. I just have to assure them that they're still getting their money's worth out of my time and I would share that that that the vast majority are grateful of the Interfaith work that we get to do cuz we get to do it. It's not it's not like it just falls on us we get to do this stuff, but there's just a couple people who think

33:59 You know, maybe you need to reground yourself in Muslim this or Islam rather than finding ways to appease people who don't believe the same. So there's those people that exist. You know, I'm on my way over here. I walked by the statue in Courthouse Square that represents the rabbi who is here very early on for 40 years. And this was years ago. He created this radio show form for better understanding with him. This was before Jim Goddard as a TV show really started in the forties Rabbi Greenberg the Episcopal Dean and the Catholic Monsignor. And so there's this big statue for the three of them for the for the radio show that became the TV show and the thing that disappoints me now is that that needs to be broadened.

34:59 It needs to include the other religions that we've now brought to the table. I need to advertise the best tattoo exists right first place cuz I'm sitting here with you and I didn't know that it's right there. That's crazy Courthouse Square. So it was early on in American Interfaith life. It was it was the nationally syndicated radio show that eventually became a TV show on in the local Catholic TV station, which is nationally syndicated which our good friend and partner Jim Graham took over which is how I met him. That's how I met him as well have solutely and and I continue to be just absolute we are inspired by that, but it's too narrow.

35:52 Well, I can just go sit there like post up next to the Statue. I'm taking some pictures with it and I'll just stand there to be over there with paint you to look bronze get let's do it man. I'll do it like they do in in in your neck of the woods in the bay and just be like moving once in awhile. Oh, yeah, actually, I think I don't know. I just I I I am extremely grateful for the work that we get to do. And I think that I think that other people just need to reach out, you know, and they don't have to be part of a church. That's the other thing that's a misconception is the Interfaith also includes folks that might not be of a particular Faith right? They could be agnostic or atheist or cramps or spiritual but not religious or whatever it wherever they fall but if they want to work with a group of people who are dignified who see the dignity and all.

36:52 However, they feel logically put that cuz we put it differently but we see the dignity and all and want to fight together Stand Together move together March together pray together or not. Pray together. Whatever it is. All they got to do is reach out go to somebody who's already taking part in the work cuz as you say you want the statue to broaden and include more our group in or it needs to be brought in as well and I think around the country where people don't have this they they need to be looking for it creating it and I and I think one of the ways to get it is to do some in Hebrew, there's a term team soon, which means to withdraw

37:41 Which in today's world means withdrawing your own ego withdrawing your own issues in order to make room for others.

37:56 And when we do that if it's just so much more gratifying that we translate that today just like say put out more folding chairs.

38:05 Make some space at the table for everybody. Yeah, or stand arm and arm stay and arm in arm like you started today stand Armand Armand and be together love together fight together or March through the capital. Whatever. It takes does B&R Armand Armand.

38:24 Funny power in that I appreciate that we were able to have this conversation today. I really love my time with you. I know that there's a lot more than we're going to get to accomplish together. But I think it was an amazing experience to be able to sit and and just here know why you do what you do what you love about it what you might not love about it. I appreciate the time. Thank you. I I love our time together and I liked it anyway and again bonus if it can Inspire other people.

39:00 That's right.

39:03 Yeah, yeah, please.

39:12 Yeah.

39:17 Do it. Right. So you're putting me on for that. Let's see. What about what about if we do something totally different you want to go line for line. I just say whatever you comes to your brain. Well, I'm going with a bit of a formula May the one who creates peace in the heavens above us bring peace upon the Earth for all of us. That's nothing. I can say after that a man. You know what I just pray that that what we've been able to accomplish locally people can accomplish in every sector of the community. I pray that the that the Creator that the sustainer that the lord of the worlds. However you want to call upon this greater entity that we all believe in that that we are able to understand and see in each other the dignity and worth in creation and then stand up and fight and uplift and raise and Empower anybody who might

40:17 Be in power anybody who might be suffering and do it with your brothers of different face.

40:28 Inshallah inshallah, so maybe