RJ Shelton and David Pilchman

[00:05] RJ SHELTON: Hi, My name is RJ Shelton. I'm 25 years old. The date is Wednesday, February 23rd, 2022. I'm located in Edmond, Oklahoma. I'm talking with David and he is my one small step conversation partner.

[00:21] DAVID PILCHMAN: And my name is David and I am 32 years old. It is Wednesday, February 23, 2022. I am located in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma. My partner's name is RJ and he is my one small step conversation partner.

[00:43] RJ SHELTON: Hi, I'm David Pilchman I'm a 32 year old person currently living in downtown okc. I have lived a while in New York and around the country, but I consider Oklahoma my home. I'm a child of adoption. So in our current climate of identity and culture having high importance to the sense of self, I have had trouble navigating my own identity with very little knowledge of my background. I believe that all people have a right to live with dignity, which includes food, clothing, shelter and health care for all.

[01:16] DAVID PILCHMAN: Hello, My name is RJ Shelton. I'm 24 years old and a native Oklahoman. I'm currently making a living as a horse trainer. I grew up in northern Oklahoma in an extremely conservative household. So conservative. We went to church upwards of three times a week. So growing up in the environment I did and working in the industry that I do, most people assume that I'm as far right as can be. In reality, I like to have an open mind and be as moderate as I can be.

[01:48] RJ SHELTON: What in my. Oh, sorry. This is. Yeah. What in my bio would you like to know more about?

[01:55] DAVID PILCHMAN: I kind of want to know. Well, first off, I want to know what part of northern Oklahoma are you originally from?

[02:00] RJ SHELTON: Ponca City. I was born in Stillwater, but I lived in Ponca City from till I was 18 and then I went off to college.

[02:09] DAVID PILCHMAN: Okay. And where was college?

[02:13] RJ SHELTON: Oklahoma. Panhandle State in Goodwill, Oklahoma. Southwest of Guyman. Way out there.

[02:19] DAVID PILCHMAN: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Cool. Yeah.

[02:21] RJ SHELTON: Yeah, it was. Until it wasn't sure. Yeah, I had a. I had a 75 mile round trip to work. It wasn't. It wasn't very fun.

[02:31] DAVID PILCHMAN: Oh my gosh. What brought you to Edmund? I guess after that?

[02:39] RJ SHELTON: Well, my bios changed a little bit in October. I had a big change of career and I'm currently working at a. I'm the cattle manager at a boys home in Edmond and I'm kind of like an ag teacher of sorts, using my degree like I should instead of. So I have. I like to say I have a big boy job now.

[03:02] DAVID PILCHMAN: Yeah, well, I was gonna say horse Training sounds like a pretty big boy job. I mean I'm. I feel like I'm a big boy and I wouldn't be able to do that, so.

[03:10] RJ SHELTON: Well, it had its perks, like being your own boss, but you know, I had to pay for my own insurance and all that stuff. But no, I. So like my bios apart from my job is completely different but so I started that. I've been started here in October. So I've been. Been here ever since then.

[03:30] DAVID PILCHMAN: Okay, cool. So just so recently to the. To the metro.

[03:33] RJ SHELTON: Yeah. Yes sir. Yes sir.

[03:35] DAVID PILCHMAN: Cool. Well, welcome.

[03:36] RJ SHELTON: Yeah, well, thank you. I like it so far. It's. It's better than most places in Oklahoma I've lived.

[03:43] DAVID PILCHMAN: Yeah, it's pretty fun. Our urban sprawl is pretty large too. From Edmond to Yukon down to Norman sometimes. So it's a big group of us down here.

[03:53] RJ SHELTON: Yeah, for sure.

[03:56] DAVID PILCHMAN: What about. Is this also my question? I guess what about my bio? A little bit more.

[04:05] RJ SHELTON: I hate to jump into politics so quick, but I've always like. One of the reasons I did this is I'm always curious because like working where I work and where I grew up, I never had like, I never had a lot of time. I did a little bit in college, but I mean college like panhandle states of extremely ag school. It's kind of like, kind of like OSU to a sense, except even more like they're liberal arts and like sciences and mathematics colleges and business colleges. Extremely small compared to the AG side of it. And so I didn't really have a lot of chance and a lot of the classes I took were mainly like people that of my like not persuasion. That's not the right word. And my background in those classes so I couldn't really like hear their side of things. So I'd like to know a little bit about your kind of like the healthcare for all and like the United Healthcare has always kind of intrigued me a little bit and see what other people. Because I don't. I mean I haven't had a lot of opportunity to ask about that to other people and like how do you see that unfolding?

[05:19] DAVID PILCHMAN: Sure. Honestly. Well, let's start with where I went to school to kind of give you an understanding my background. I went to ou.

[05:28] RJ SHELTON: Okay.

[05:28] DAVID PILCHMAN: And I went to OU as a theater major. I went in as an actor. And then I actually started in my first year I found out I had no like tangible skills other than like in voting and performing. So I wanted to learn more. So I went into stage management and that's kind of the ins and outs. You're touching a lot of departments. And then my career today, I'm a production manager for a local arts organization in town. Yeah. So it's been cool to kind of come back home after traveling, doing that career for a long time, seeing the arts and culture kind of expand in my hometown. So that's been pretty interesting. As far as my political views, I mean those, those have come in and out pretty drastically through my life. But it wasn't until maybe the last five years or six years I really started to be interested and pay attention in a way that like I can, I can feel like I'm involved so particularly with healthcare for all that goes along with kind of my faith background also, like everybody needs to be cared for and we need to find a way to care for everybody in a way that isn't just who can afford it. And I think that's important. So that goes in the realm of like food, clothing and shelter. You know, that includes your, well being a part of your health. And so, you know, in Oklahoma it, you know, actually in your, in your bio you mentioned, you know, people think where you're from that you might be as far right as you can be. Right. Yeah, but, but, but you consider yourself a moderate as well. When I was growing up here, I also didn't feel like I fit into the conservative mold that my family was. But yet we were, you know, we were Republicans or conservatives, but at the same time we weren't because of some social justice issues. But yeah, I, I too thought I was very moderate until I left and I left and I started experiencing other states and other people and how they operate as a community. And I, I found that I'm, I'm actually very left in how I see people interacting with each other. And I didn't even realize that until one day I kept talking to somebody and be like, yeah, I'm a moderate, I believe in universal healthcare, I'm a moderate and I believe in these things. Not realizing that that's not a moderate view at all. Most people would consider it very left, but I was never able to understand that because of where I was from. And this is how you're supposed to feel and look and learn. And if you're outside of that, there's not a lot of opportunity for people to, to like you said, interact with somebody else to even pose the conversation.

[08:18] RJ SHELTON: So yeah, yeah, Norman, I feel like you have more opportunity there because that's where Norman's like a more science based college than Like Panhandle State.

[08:30] DAVID PILCHMAN: Right, right.

[08:31] RJ SHELTON: Where Panhandle State wouldn't exist without their rodeo team because that's their only athletic team that does any good at anything.

[08:40] DAVID PILCHMAN: Hey, I'll let you. I Same though. OU would be nowhere without their football team, I'll tell you what. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, Norman was. It was a pretty progressive area, but it's still, you know, you're still in Oklahoma, so. Yeah, as you know, you're. You're understanding where people stand and where they are. You can even see the divide in such a small city like Norman, so.

[09:02] RJ SHELTON: No, same. I've seen the same thing with Edmonds.

[09:06] DAVID PILCHMAN: Yeah.

[09:07] RJ SHELTON: And Edmond. Edmond used to be like so Baptist. You couldn't. There's. That's why there's not any like, quote unquote, dance hall bars in Edmond because could dance. So. But that's just changing. I mean, as. As most places do. But I mean, I like it. I lived south of Norman before I lived here, so. I get that too.

[09:30] DAVID PILCHMAN: I actually, when I was born, lived in Edmond before it became like the suburban area it is now. We had 5 acre plot of land out on Bryant. Our closest neighbor was five acres away. And then it was great. And then my family and I, at a point when I was a child, picked up and moved to California and we left Edmond. And then from that time traveling about the country. We were really mostly city people at that point. Even though I feel like sometimes my heart is where there's a little bit more land and space.

[10:06] RJ SHELTON: Yeah. Yeah.

[10:08] DAVID PILCHMAN: But, yeah, Edmond, it's its own little big city now.

[10:14] RJ SHELTON: Yeah. Can you tell me about someone who's been kindest to you in your life?

[10:20] DAVID PILCHMAN: Someone who's been kindest to me in my life. Honestly, the kindest person that I have found recently is my partner, Ms. Emily. She. We've been together about five years now and she. She just like in a world where I was feeling confused and lost, she was able to like, let me express myself in those ways and like, really understand what I'm feeling and where I'm coming from. And that is probably the kindest person who's been in my life so far has been my partner. But what about you?

[11:01] RJ SHELTON: I probably. It's really cliche, but I have to go with my mother. She's always. My mother actually grew up in Edmond and is kind of more along like how I. My career choice. And she's a librarian, but she started out showing horses like I did. That's where I learned my love of showing horses from her and. But she's always been supportive of my decisions. Like, my dad always wanted me to get a degree and go. To go finish school and, like, get a job like I have now. But, like, when I was off from my freshman year of college to literally when I started this new job, I was on my. Like, I trained horses on my own. I was my own boss. Like, I had a. I had an employee every once in a while who cleaned stalls for me, but for the most part, I was on my own doing my own thing and sometimes really just scraping by and. But she has always been supportive of that. Even. Even if, looking back, I did do some stupid stuff, but, like, taking so long to finish college and whatnot. But she's. She's been. She's been understanding and caring through the whole process of my life.

[12:23] DAVID PILCHMAN: That's awesome. I was gonna say my mom, but then I was like, you know what? I look back sometimes in our relationship, I'm like, you haven't been the kindest to me, but you've loved me through and through. Her favorite phrase growing up was, you know, I don't have to like you, but I have to love you. And I was like, that's nice, Mom.

[12:43] RJ SHELTON: Sounds like my dad.

[12:48] DAVID PILCHMAN: That's good.

[12:52] RJ SHELTON: What is your earliest memory of politics?

[12:56] DAVID PILCHMAN: Oh, I feel like it's like a gray area of three things, right. It's like I have a memory of Bill Clinton playing a saxophone, right. And then I have memory of. And I know this is not our politics, but I remember when Princess Die died, that was a big deal. And then I guess in the modern world, my biggest, like, seeing how it impacts my community and the people around me would probably be Bush 2000 election, probably. And watching how people were really get invested around in Oklahoma for Bush. What about you?

[13:43] RJ SHELTON: That's also. It's a couple of two things. One was the Bush election. My grandpa had a Dodge 1500 pickup, and he had. On each side of the rear, the. The back glass windows was Bush, who was his vice president.

[14:00] DAVID PILCHMAN: It's Gore.

[14:02] RJ SHELTON: Gore. Yeah. Stickers. And my. My brother bought that truck from him. And it's. I don't think it's right, either, but it is. My brother bought that pickup from him, and it's. Those stickers are still on it. And then the second thing that really, like, I really think of is from. Was it fifth grade to eighth grade? I went to a private Christian school that my dad was the principal at.

[14:30] DAVID PILCHMAN: Oh, wow, cool.

[14:31] RJ SHELTON: Yeah. And they had a. This was the Obama McCain election in, I think, 2008. And they had a mock election and you'll never guess who won that election. Oh, McCain. It's just these. You could just. I just look back, I'm like, wow, these kids had no idea what they were doing.

[14:55] DAVID PILCHMAN: No, no whatsoever.

[14:57] RJ SHELTON: They just hear it's chaining. Yeah, there you go. There you go. No, it's. They just, they just was what, like, and I, and I vote. I voted for McCain because that's what you hear at the dinner table with your family. That's what their parents had talked about and that's all they knew. And it's just kind of brainwashing to me, now that I look back at it.

[15:20] DAVID PILCHMAN: Hey, man, dude, here's the, here's the realest thing. I mean, my, my family was in, in the, in like the Christian movement as well. We were very religious in our way. My family worked for a church or worth a church. My entire upbringing up until I was probably 16, 17, and we were, we did not talk politics at the dinner table. We did not discuss it. It was not a thing. It was never encouraged as a young person to that. That's going to be your duty here soon. And then me, like, what I think is a lot of Oklahomans, especially Oklahoma youth, they don't then see the importance to get registered right at 18 to go ahead and be aware of who's being elected for what stuff. So I didn't even pass my first ballot until 2020.

[16:11] RJ SHELTON: I think that was my. I think that was mine too.

[16:14] DAVID PILCHMAN: Yeah, man. I've been eligible since 2000, whatever six or 2008. And I didn't vote for the first time until 2020. And I'm like, I can't be alone in that.

[16:27] RJ SHELTON: No, no, you're not. I know plenty of people. And like, I lived. I didn't quite go as far as you did moving away, but like, I lived in Texas for quite a while and I never voted while I was down there because, I mean, it would have been a simple thing to get an absentee ballot.

[16:44] DAVID PILCHMAN: Right? I mean. And you didn't re. Register either when you were in Texas, did you?

[16:48] RJ SHELTON: Yeah, because I hadn't been registered in the first place.

[16:51] DAVID PILCHMAN: Yeah, there you go. There you go. I registered when I was 18 because I wanted to get extra credit on like a history class. And then I think that got me jury duty because they didn't realize that I was like a 19 year old not going to school at the time. They were like, oh, he deserves jury duty. But then, yeah, after that I just, I never, I never got involved. I Never did it. And then the one day I decided that I wanted to try, I realized I had gotten purged off the voter rolls.

[17:25] RJ SHELTON: Really?

[17:26] DAVID PILCHMAN: Yeah. And that honestly is what got me kicking in the idea of like, that's bad, that's not right. This is my right as a citizen. It's not a privilege that is bestowed upon me because I'm actively participating. This is something I am entitled constantly. And so that's where I've started to kind of build in together what that kind of looks like.

[17:48] RJ SHELTON: Yeah, but yeah, I think I'm with you. I didn't vote till 2020.

[17:53] DAVID PILCHMAN: Yeah, man, that was.

[17:56] RJ SHELTON: Yeah, 2020. Yeah, that was. Why did you want to do this interview today?

[18:06] DAVID PILCHMAN: I, you know, I've been thinking about that and I think I always want to connect with people and honestly, any, anybody, it can be somebody on the side of the road. It can be like the person on customer service, you know, But I think that there's something important about when discussions and you're able to interact, you know, person to person that create a bond and the more bonds you create, you know, the more you're able to understand and kind of, you know, look at perspective a little differently. So.

[18:34] RJ SHELTON: Yeah, absolutely.

[18:35] DAVID PILCHMAN: And what about you?

[18:36] RJ SHELTON: I think I've, I, like I talked about it earlier, but that's about. Because like I've never had that opportunity to talk to people that aren't so right wing or I have a really good. My best friend in since like middle school, she goes to OSU right now and she, she and I think a lot the same, but that's this. I never get to. On the other side, like it's either people who agree with me or to the right of me. I never get to talk to other people and like genuinely understand like what they, what they think and I want to know what they think because like, I don't want to be so bullheaded as to think, well, you don't think this way. So you're wrong. Right. That's, that's never, I mean that's never been with anything. That's never been how I wanted to be. So it's, it was just nice to talk to someone. Talk to someone and have a pleasant conversation. That's another thing. Have a pleasant conversation because I just.

[19:37] DAVID PILCHMAN: Heard somebody recently be like, you know, if we don't have these conversations in this kind of forum in a way that feels controlled or relaxed, then you know, we're going to just do it at the dinner table yelling at each other. So.

[19:49] RJ SHELTON: Yeah, and that's how it was with, like, we talked politics at dinner table, my dad and grandpa, and it was always, you know, either Obama's an idiot or Trumpet Trump is the king. And I would try to. I would try to chime in, and I just get shot at. Whatever. It's not even worth it. It's not even worth it to get.

[20:13] DAVID PILCHMAN: But, yeah, and it's. And that's such a shame because all you have is, like, curiosity to have a conversation.

[20:22] RJ SHELTON: Yeah. And they're just like. I mean, and I did. I had a job in college. I worked at a kind of. In a retail setting, and I had my. The boss there. We would have those kind of conversations. And he was really like, he was. He was hardcore Trump, but he wasn't ignorant about it. Like, he would. We could have genuine conversations without us, without someone having to get up and walk away with steam coming out their ears.

[20:55] DAVID PILCHMAN: Right.

[20:56] RJ SHELTON: And, like. And, like, he would ask questions. He'd be like, well, why do you think about this? Like, how do. Why do you. It's kind of like this kind of thing going on now. Like. And there was no. I mean, never. Never did I get up and walk out or get mad at him because, like, we had those, like, pleasant conversations and we. We jab, fun, laugh at each other, that kind of thing. But it was. They were nice conversations, and you can learn. You kind of learn because he was. I think he was. He was. He was the older. Older gentleman. So he was. I think he would have been a boomer. So you mean you. Like, he was kind of the. He was kind of the. Not the typical. Not the stereotypical. So it was all that was also really nice.

[21:42] DAVID PILCHMAN: Yeah. Yeah, it's. It's. I haven't. I haven't had a chance. I think that's another reason I wanted to do this, because it's like, I don't feel like I have had a chance yet to find a forum where you can do that. You know, you mentioned those, you know, Cheney Bush stickers on that car. And if you look at the stickers on cars today, I mean, some of them are pretty vulgar and pretty. Pretty loud about what, you know, the position that somebody might have on something. And so it creates, you know, as something as silly as a bumper sticker can really already heighten, you know, your feelings towards what that person might think of you. And to live in a city that's so diverse with, you know, with its political leanings, with what the needs are in the community, I mean, it's kind of intimidating to see Those kind of. Right, right. You know, leaning stickers or, you know, and it's just a stick, you know.

[22:41] RJ SHELTON: Yeah, yeah, yeah. My favorite is seeing the. And I just, I just shake my head. I don't even say anything anymore. The Joe Biden stickers that people put on the gas pumps. Have you seen those around yet?

[22:53] DAVID PILCHMAN: Oh, yeah. He's pointing at the price. Yeah, I've taken a few of those off. I have a knife I keep on me. Just a spray bracelet, horrible stickers. There you go.

[23:04] RJ SHELTON: I always want to. I always want to say, like, tell me, tell me you don't know about the supply chain without telling me you don't know about the supply chain. You see, you can't get into those. You keep going back to this. You can't get into those discussions with those people because they're just so obstinate and bullheaded about it. They won't open up and listen to. Why do you think that?

[23:33] DAVID PILCHMAN: Yeah, that's interesting, the thought that then like a sticker is a way to like just end the conversation too. It's like, you can't ask me about it. You don't want to. But this is how I feel.

[23:43] RJ SHELTON: Yeah. Yeah. And most of them, most of those people, the sad thing is most of those people don't have any facts or anything to back up there. They may do five minutes of Googling and say they did research.

[23:54] DAVID PILCHMAN: Yeah, well. And yeah, Google or Facebooking, which either one is kind of. You gotta double check every one of those.

[24:01] RJ SHELTON: Yeah, exactly. It's just.

[24:05] DAVID PILCHMAN: Yeah, man, it's. I had a question about. Actually you mentioned, you know, people might think that you're far right as can be, but you're moderate. And I'm wondering who are what people? Like, who do you come in contact with who might think that you're super far right?

[24:24] RJ SHELTON: Just people like. I find I come across it a lot with people that I grew up with and that I haven't seen since high school. And I mean, I'm not, I'm not a big Facebooker. I mean, I'll share something every now and again, but I'm not like make my beliefs known everywhere. And it's just they. And I find a little. There's a lot of judgmental stuff and I'm guilty of it as well. I'm not. My hands are not clean, but my name's not.

[24:53] DAVID PILCHMAN: We're all good.

[24:55] RJ SHELTON: I grew. I grew up in a Baptist church and I went to an ag based college. I kind of work a blue collar type of job. And people just assume that that's how I think, and it's really not. And then they kind of get offended when I don't align with their beliefs. And it's mostly like, it's just, it's. I find it a lot with people I haven't seen in years and they just assume things and like, we're not allowed to grow or like, that's why I went off to college. I mean, yeah, I just, I didn't go to like an ex, like a big city college or anything. But it's still, it's still differently. I mean, a lot of people assume that, like I'm, I voted for Trump every single time. And then I, and then they, they're like, well, why don't you like Trump? I mean, why, why do you like him? You like, you like how, how loud the people just like him because he's loud and he is. And his Twitter and he's like, well, like, I've worked with a guy before. He's like, well, he's just got, you know, he's just got the cojones to say whatever he wants. So no one, no one has him as big as he does. And I was like, why do you want that? Like, he's just rude and obnoxious and.

[26:14] DAVID PILCHMAN: I mean, yeah, I, it's interesting that, because when you said that, my brain thought, you know, there might be some left leaning people who look at you and might express that, that you might be right leaning. But it sounds like it is.

[26:30] RJ SHELTON: It does. It does go both ways too.

[26:34] DAVID PILCHMAN: Yeah.

[26:35] RJ SHELTON: And like, it's the same way, like, oh, he must have voted for Trump. No, no. And then, but those people seem to, like, the more you get to talk to them, the more they, they like, they understand, like, oh, well, that's how you. Well, I didn't expect that, you know, and I don't, I'm kind of at home, so that's another thing why I enjoy this, because I'm kind of a homebody. I, I get off work and I go home and I might crack a beer and hang out with my dog and rarely do I go out and have opportunity to talk about stuff like that. So I haven't been assumed upon in a while, but it's still like kind of, like, kind of irritating. Like, wow.

[27:17] DAVID PILCHMAN: Yeah. Yeah. Well, that sucks. I'm sorry that people assume without asking.

[27:22] RJ SHELTON: It's all right, it's all right. I mean, it's all right. I, it's just, it gives you an opportunity to, you know, express your, what you Think without, you know, being rude about the whole situation.

[27:39] DAVID PILCHMAN: Yeah.

[27:42] RJ SHELTON: Well, did you have any other questions for me?

[27:46] DAVID PILCHMAN: I do have one other question that you mentioned. You know, you come from an alternative ultra conservative background and so conservative that you went to church three times a week. So my question is, do you associate being religious with being conservative or, or do you believe that like inherently being conservative also means that you're religious?

[28:13] RJ SHELTON: No, I have found that. So, so we went. I grew up in a Baptist church and more recently I've been going with my parents. My parents go to a Nazarene church now and so do I. But no, I've come to find that there are some of those, like there are those people that preach politics from the pulpit and that's inherently wrong because there's a reason. There's a separation. Separation church estate goes both ways. But it's, it's almost like sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't. Like it's different. It seems to me like from what I've observed, and this may be an incorrect observation, the different denominations are, can be more like, oh, you're Baptist. I mean some of those independent Baptists, they're pretty hardcore conservative. But like my, I have family that go to Methodist churches and they're pretty laid back and I mean a joy to be around without, you know, getting yelled at all the time.

[29:19] DAVID PILCHMAN: I think it's interesting like, so I have a religious background as well and we were non denominational is kind of what our sector of Christianity was. And so hearing you say things like Baptists and Methodists, when I was growing up, it was all very confusing of like who's what and when, when. Like I'm this non dumb person and, and so as I'm growing up in church, you know, I'm hearing a lot about you're supposed to do this for the needy and for the homeless and the hungry and this. But then there's also that sidespin that's also. But also make sure you're getting your wealth and getting, you know, your prosperity is only manifested if you do these things correctly. And those two kind of things to me were opposing.

[30:12] RJ SHELTON: I agree with that.

[30:14] DAVID PILCHMAN: And that's where, you know, I've always felt this confusion with conservative and being faithful or religious because of those things kind of butting heads.

[30:29] RJ SHELTON: Yeah.

[30:32] DAVID PILCHMAN: But yeah, it's interesting that you were able to kind of, you look at it kind of in the sense of like there's them and then not. But when I see it, it's just kind of like we're all we're trying to all speak the same language, I think.

[30:45] RJ SHELTON: Yeah.

[30:46] DAVID PILCHMAN: But having a time, a tough time deciding what. What that looks like moving forward, I guess.

[30:53] RJ SHELTON: Yeah. I mean, like, I try, I try not to be like, judge books by their cover in a sense, but I mean, that's kind of, that's kind of way you have to do it almost, and it's bad.

[31:08] DAVID PILCHMAN: But I think that's the hardest thing to do though, is to judge something or to not judge something at all. Even when you get through the end of the book and you realize, oh, that's, you know, that's just the book. That's what the book had to offer, you know.

[31:24] RJ SHELTON: Yeah.

[31:26] DAVID PILCHMAN: And that's hard for sometimes, for like the Christians, in my opinion, you know, to make that distinction of non judgment. And, you know, we preach non judgment, but we also have a tough time being non judgmental. So it's.

[31:39] RJ SHELTON: Yes, I think it's something we are always going to struggle with.

[31:45] DAVID PILCHMAN: But yeah, as a people, regardless of if it's Christianity or not, I think. Yeah, yeah.

[31:51] RJ SHELTON: But they seem to struggle, I mean, even more with it. And like I said before, my hands aren't clean. I'm guilty of it to step back and. But I try not to judge people by their looks anymore. Like, I noticed you have a ponytail.

[32:12] DAVID PILCHMAN: Like, it's new. It's new, the ponytail.

[32:17] RJ SHELTON: Years ago, like, being around like, you know, my grandpa was born in 1934, so just the end, just, you know, that different generation, you know, clean cut, blah, blah. I. 10 years ago, I probably would have judged you for that. But now I'm like, that doesn't even bother you. I don't even think about it hardly.

[32:40] DAVID PILCHMAN: Oh, I appreciate it. Well, my mama still does, if it makes you feel any better. She'll look at me and be like, oh, it's still there, I see.

[32:48] RJ SHELTON: Oh, you're not alone. There I was with my mother. I'm kind of due for. I'm kind of due for a haircut. This is pretty raggedy for me. But it was real windy. It was real windy on Monday. I don't know if it was down there, but it was here.

[33:04] DAVID PILCHMAN: Oh, yeah, yeah, it's been, it's been crazy these last few days.

[33:07] RJ SHELTON: Yeah, yeah, I'm over it. But she said, well, look at your hair. Like, we went to dinner and she handed me a comb.

[33:15] DAVID PILCHMAN: She got a toast comb. Yeah, she did.

[33:18] RJ SHELTON: She handed me a comb and said. She said, well, you're not gonna wear your. You're not gonna wear your hat at the Table. So you better comb your hair.

[33:25] DAVID PILCHMAN: Oh, my goodness. Yeah, well, your mama knows manners. That's what.

[33:29] RJ SHELTON: Yeah, that's true. Yeah.

[33:32] DAVID PILCHMAN: But, yeah, my ponytail, I got. So it's been a dream of mine to grow my hair out since I was a new lad. Yeah, I. But I've never had the opportunity. And then again, through my work, I hold kind of like a leadership position in a lot of areas, so that, you know, there was an expectation of, like, be clean and wear this. And. And then when Covid happened and we all went into isolation and we, you know, none of us were doing anything, I came to the, you know, the crossroad of, like, do I start buzzing my own hair? And so I. I've had trouble. I. My partner, Emily, does it for me, I have to admit. I put on a towel, and she gets the clippers out, and we do it, like, every other month now. And I don't think I'm ever going back to a barber. I'm done.

[34:21] RJ SHELTON: I haven't. I haven't got. My mother used to cut my hair, and I have an old driver's license picture that show you why that was a bad idea.

[34:29] DAVID PILCHMAN: Oh, now I gotta see it. No, not now, but I want to see that.

[34:33] RJ SHELTON: I don't think. I don't think. I don't know if I have it, because it. Actually, I finally got my. I finally got a new id. It expired on New Year's, so. But no, I just found a barber, actually, and I was supposed to go today, and I got a text last night that he had an emergency procedure and couldn't cut my hair. So I have to wait till next week.

[34:56] DAVID PILCHMAN: Oh, man. Also, I moved to Oklahoma. I moved back at the very beginning of the pandemic. I moved in January of 2020, and I was starting the new job and moving it around, and I still had my apartment in New York, and then the world shut down. And so ever since then, my. Everything's just been kind of like a new frontier for me. I don't know any barbers. I've met zero people. I'm, like, trying to navigate this new world that I live right next to the Capitol. So I get, like, all the crazy.

[35:27] RJ SHELTON: News that must really stink, moving back right then because you can't get out. Like, you could have to meet people. And.

[35:38] DAVID PILCHMAN: Oh, yeah, it was really challenging because we were really excited about moving here, and I got the job, and we got here, and, you know, Oklahoma was sounding progressive, and things were changing and things were happening, and the people were, you know, taking control of some stuff in their own hands. And then we get here and when everything shut down and kind of Oklahoma's kind of like their darkest colors started revisiting mainstream conversation. And it really, it made me very uncomfortable and I had to really grapple with, you know, I mentioned like my identity and that's a part of it. It's like these people that I surround myself with and that, you know, maybe have some thoughts I don't agree with that I never knew until some things were, you know, having to be brought to light when it's being forced into our conversation. So yeah, it's, I honestly, when one small step came out, it was really exciting to be like, okay, maybe there are a couple of other Oklahoma's out there who want to have a conversation about it.

[36:39] RJ SHELTON: It's wild that you say that Oklahoma was getting, you thought it was getting more progressive. And I think it's, this shows how diverse the state is because I'm sure you could really see it in Oklahoma City, but even up north in Ponca, I mean, you could still kind of see it. There's, but it's such a small percentage compared to like Tulsa or Oklahoma City. Sure, I mean it was, you could kind of see some of the progressive like thinking and more open mindedness up there. But I mean, still, it's a, it's a, I mean Ponca is not that small, but it's still small enough to be, you know, a rural kind of area.

[37:20] DAVID PILCHMAN: Right. Well, and you know, we've had a lot of growth in this in Oklahoma in the last 10 years. You know, people have been moving here for lots of different reasons and things. You know, refugees have been flooding in here more and more recently.

[37:35] RJ SHELTON: Yeah.

[37:36] DAVID PILCHMAN: And I guess, you know, I was doing some reading and every time that you see some kind of progressive movement forward, you know, the opposition or somebody was, is going to try to double down a little bit harder on the way back. And I think that's just, that's the climate I entered in was you had some movement in a good direction, teachers strikes, some medical marijuana, some people really pushing for some stuff. And then, and then I, you know, when I arrived was when we're like, okay, we got to push some of this back and interesting to watch. But yeah, I've been more politically active in my life these last three years than I have in my entire life.

[38:13] RJ SHELTON: I think that's three. Yeah, I think I would be about the same. I mean.

[38:23] DAVID PILCHMAN: Yeah, it's, I mean like I mentioned, you know, I hadn't voted before And I would, I was, I was politically in the know. I guess you can kind of say it's. I'm one. I was one of those people who would talk a lot of politics. And then when they asked if I ever voted, I'd say no. And they'd be like, well, then you can't talk about it. You're not allowed to talk about politics if you don't vote. And so. And so I, when I moved home, you know, my partner looked up my registration because you can do that in Oklahoma if you have somebody's birthday. And I was purged and I hadn't known, and so I registered. And then I started. You know, it's the most controversial thing the realize I got involved was because somebody, during a protest, during the George Floyd protest in 2020, was brandishing a long rifled firearm in their front yard down by the Oklahoma City jail. And it was in the middle of the day. You know, protesters were marching, but it was, you know, there were kids, everybody was just like having a good time, like marching down in daylight and, and this band of apartment owner people, you know, sitting in their lawn chairs with some booze, smoking weed, and all of them having their guns, looking pretty intimidating. And there was nothing anybody could do about it. You know, I talked to the police, they were like, there's nothing we can do. Laws just passed. They're allowed to be on their property as long as this, blah, blah, blah. And I confronted those people and I was like, yo, you got to get your guns out of here because there's kids. And I don't know, it's the middle of the day. The police station is right there. If you need the police, call them. And it caused a ruckus where I lived across the street in a neighboring apartment complex. And one of those guys stalked my apartment building for four nights from sundown to three in the morning, every night for five nights during a curfew time that we had because of all the unrest and the area. And that really kept my ass because there was nobody around who was willing or there was nobody in my area at the time to be like, you know, that's wrong. They were all just like, it's the way it is. And I, like, could not take that for an answer. So I found a group called, you know, Moms Demand Action for. You know, it's like it's every town for gun sense in America. And. And since then, you know, they were following gun bills that were passing in the legislation, and some of them are just so dangerous and so unnecessary. And for the name of having a gun in every person's hand, it really. It shook me to the cord to think, like, this is our top priority. This. Out of all the things in Oklahoma that we have that are hurting and people who need services, this is the most pressing issue. And that's what got me. That's what got me seriously involved, was realizing that the people have more power than just one dude with a gun. And so, anyway, that was mine. What got you? You said three years.

[41:38] RJ SHELTON: I just. Well, I mean, three years ago, 19. Where was I? I was still working. I haven't been as involved as you, like, getting involved with groups or anything, but I just, like. I've just been paying attention more and, like, trying to. Just trying to keep an open mind about things and, like, listening to what other people have to say and not being. I've said this before. Not being bullheaded and obstinate about things like. Like, I'll say I. I own guns. I have. I have a couple in my house right now. But I would not be sitting in my front yard with kids around. I'd hope that was a gun in my lap. But, like. I mean.

[42:29] DAVID PILCHMAN: Yeah, well. And, like. And, you know, I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm not a gun owner. I never planned to be. It's not in my nature. But I'm also. I've come to the understanding of, like, I'm also not interested in taking your guns away at this point. I'm only interested in that they're locked. Ammunition's in a different place. Yeah. Honestly, people should register their firearms so we know who has firearms.

[42:56] RJ SHELTON: That's how it should be. I mean, because mine are mainly used in my job for protection of. I mean, right now, it's calving season. There's babies on the ground now, and coyotes are a big, big. I mean, a big threat to them.

[43:17] DAVID PILCHMAN: Interesting. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[43:19] RJ SHELTON: And so I can't. I mean, if I don't have a rifle in my truck to protect these mamas and their babies, what am I gonna do? Throw a stick at the coyote?

[43:28] DAVID PILCHMAN: No, you're right.

[43:32] RJ SHELTON: We do have donkeys, and donkeys help that. You know, donkeys can only do so much, and they're in the. In the pasture. The coyotes leave and go somewhere else where the donkeys can't get past the pasture then.

[43:43] DAVID PILCHMAN: Right.

[43:44] RJ SHELTON: I mean, but that's interesting.

[43:46] DAVID PILCHMAN: Well, and that's. That's something about Oklahoma that, you know, we are very rural. There's a lot of rural area in Oklahoma. And people can justify their needs just like that to have a gun and own a firearm. But, you know, I'm a city guy, and I've been around some cities, and I'm like, I just can't justify having fires around that many people all the time.

[44:06] RJ SHELTON: Exactly. And that's what people don't understand, that people want you to have a safe full in your house to protect yourself. But some of these rounds, it'll go straight through your. Your wall and your neighbors and. Two down.

[44:18] DAVID PILCHMAN: Yep.

[44:19] RJ SHELTON: And. And that's like. That's a big thing we run into over here. These people, like people hunting around cows out here. People don't know what's behind them. Yeah, they don't know what's behind what they're shooting. Like, I guess a couple years ago, before I got here, they used to have hunting on Arcadia Lake, and there was a horse that had a arrow sticking out of his rear because a hunter shot at a deer and missed and didn't know it was behind it and it hit a horse, and that's dangerous.

[44:48] DAVID PILCHMAN: There's too many people in it.

[44:50] RJ SHELTON: Exactly. Exactly. Exactly.

[44:56] DAVID PILCHMAN: I have to admit, man, hearing you say all that makes me feel pretty good about a gun owner who lives near me, because the gun owners I've encountered recently do not. I don't feel like, have your same mentality.

[45:10] RJ SHELTON: It's so stupid. I mean, people like. I'm shaking my head right now, and I had. I hadn't heard about that. Which you had talked about with those people sitting in there from their apartment complex with their kids. With kids around like that.

[45:25] DAVID PILCHMAN: Yeah. And I hadn't heard it.

[45:27] RJ SHELTON: I hadn't heard anything. I was living in Oklahoma. That's crazy.

[45:31] DAVID PILCHMAN: There's so many things about. I mean. And we can talk about. This probably sounds like for years about the things in Oklahoma we didn't know were happening. Yeah. But. Yeah, it's. It's about being involved and talking to people and seeing, like, what's happening in your neighborhood, you know, what's happening down the street.

[45:46] RJ SHELTON: Exactly.

[45:47] DAVID PILCHMAN: In your town. We're not isolated. You know, you're. You're an Edmund, but you're. You're in my metro, dude. You know, we're in the same place, so.

[45:53] RJ SHELTON: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Probably take me 15 minutes to get to your house right now.

[45:58] DAVID PILCHMAN: Yeah, man. One day. One day we'll have a bus or a train and you'll get here in 20, and it'll be great. Well, man, I just want to say thank you so much for, like, taking the time to do this and have a good conversation.

[46:12] RJ SHELTON: I appreciate it, too. I was kind of nervous going into this, but it's been. It's been really refreshing and interesting hearing your side of things, and I appreciate you sharing it and listening to what I had to say.

[46:24] DAVID PILCHMAN: Yeah, man, I was very. I was nervous, too, but you seem like a different dude, so.

[46:28] RJ SHELTON: Yeah, well, I try. No, don't tell people that I have an image.

[46:32] DAVID PILCHMAN: Don't want people getting the wrong idea. I know.

[46:36] RJ SHELTON: Yeah, yeah.

[46:38] DAVID PILCHMAN: But. Oh, goodness.