Robert Roper III and Diane Montgomery-Logan

00:01 Hi, my name is Rob Roper. I'm 53 years old, a number that still startles me. Today's date is November 2nd in my home in Stow, and I'm here with my, my small one small step partner. Diane looking forward to a good conversation.

00:20 And my name is Diane montgomery-logan and tomorrow. I turn 75 something. That's absolutely, I'm in Burlington Vermont and I'm here with my partner, Rob.

00:39 Are you will happy early birthday, Diane? Oh, Jesus. Carpio is a Scorpio. So it's a good day. November 3rd, Rob. Why didn't you ask Diane this question first. What made you want to do this interview today?

01:14 Well, I have accessed sort of an intellectual reason and I have an emotional reason, the intellectual reason is that I really can't founded and upset by what's happening in the country with how polarized things are that. There's no that doesn't seem to be any structure anymore. For hashing out ideas that we can only have room for taking positions and the more we take those positions them or right? We know we are and I'm just very concerned about that and that place out.

01:56 Personally for me because I grew up in Virginia and much of my family are still in Virginia and I am not able to talk to them at all anymore because they there's such a political divide and there's so much.

02:14 Misunderstanding that, as far as I can, tell her that who I am that. I've become this just left wing, ministers cuz I live in Vermont and then after the January 6th Insurrection, it just was so heartbreaking to me that. I actually haven't had contact with them.

02:41 And so I thought if I can't do that at all and where does that leave the whole country? So I did I felt like this would be a way to take a small step and try to find my way back and also to see if I could contribute to the country shifting.

03:03 Thank you, Diane. Why don't you go and ask for all this. How about you, what made you decide to do it? Well, I just think it's a wonderful idea, the opportunity to participate in something. Like this is isn't something that comes along every day. And I thought it would be silly to give up an opportunity like this to do it. As you said, try to try to get to know somebody who comes from a different perspective than my own. I think that's what makes life. Interesting is. It's the people we tend to disagree with so long as we can do, so in a civil manner.

03:37 We have another thing in common Diane. I'm originally from Virginia as well. I was born in Richmond. I was young, but I feel like I, you know, what, salmon returning to the upstream and every time I get back to Tidewater area, so it's about I was born in Richmond and I lived in Williamsburg for a little while and Charlottesville for a little while when I was very young, my grandmother lived in and in Charlottesville and then moved to Williamsburg where I spent a lot of time up until high school and then I went back to Virginia 44, high school. I went to Woodberry forest for 43 years of high school and my parents retired to Virginia. They sent moved away from that. They've done the Florida thing, but they lived in Virginia for 25 years and in an area Mathews County.

04:37 I don't know those places I grew up in Richmond, Virginia and south side. And actually, I was born in Cleveland. So I started to the opposite. Migration my parents moved to. My parents were from Virginia and they move back there when I was about 6, so, I definitely grew up in the Southern Culture in Richmond's, which is a, which is nice as my one-by-one lifeline.

05:10 So yeah.

05:13 Got got away from the question of why I did the internet. Why did this interview? But but yeah, I know somebody who I respect the whole lot asked me to do it or suggested that I do it and it's just such a wonderful opportunity. I like you already. So I think this is like, do you have any anxiety? I really don't. I noticed on your profile. You said that you don't unfortunately don't know a whole lot of people who disagree with you on issues, but, you know more about the sort of libertarian conservative in Vermont. I'm forced to know people and be friends with people who disagree with me. If the alternative is to not have any friends that I know. I'm not the I'm not anxious about it at all. An issue with being a progressive in Vermont.

06:13 Circle of friends, and my community itself are tend to be liberal or even Progressive. And so, I'm not really exposed immediately to people. And I have relatives out of state, but I find it very difficult to connect with them. So yeah, so I don't have a lot of experience, hashing out, idea.

06:42 I'm great. So Rob, why don't you go ahead and read Diane's bio and then ask her some questions about it.

06:50 Okay, Diane says I've lived in Vermont since the late 1970s. I have two adult children. My daughters are both lesbians and I feel concern for their families in the midst of the anti-glbtq Discrimination. I fear for the country. When I see such an acceptance of authoritarianism issues of racial Justice and climate change, weigh on my heart. I'm very concerned that we won't be able to get out of the polarisation politics politicians have, let us let us to unfortunately I don't have much contact with people who disagree with me.

07:24 So, I guess

07:25 My biggest question for you would be if you moved here in the late 1970s.

07:32 What sort of changes have you moved here in 1998? So what sort of changes have you seen over that period with Vermont cuz the culture as through historical lens changed changed quite a bit. What, from your personal through your personal ones would have you seen? And I've been changing as well. I moved here from San Francisco. So, and I lived in an urban community there and it was a fairly Progressive Community, but I was not fairly Progressive having come from a conservative family and I moved here to Shelburne.

08:16 Which is a very affluent community. And I, my husband was a postdoc at the University. So we were living on a shoestring, and a pretty affluent Community. I was a real aware of what was going on in Vermont in 1980. I think is when Bernie Sanders won as mayor of the of the city. And I was just marginally aware of that. It wasn't until I left Shelburne. My, my husband and I separated in 88, I think. And I started to live by myself in Burlington that I really started to become more aware of what was going on in the changes there and then I really started to track of what was going on with civil union debate and

09:13 Start a time just and what the historical change had been because there was a lot of reactivity to it. And so I began to get a bigger picture of how aggravated cell was changing to make that conversation bicycle.

09:32 What when you moved here, you said in the 90s? So what's the environment?

09:45 Start of the aftermath of act 60 and the Civil civil union debate. So it wasn't here for that.

09:54 And I've always been sort of political and my

10:00 In my thoughts, but I really didn't know anything about Vermont politics went. When I, when I moved here, it was, we had relatives in the area and my in-laws, where in the Manchester area and my brother-in-law was in the

10:15 Then strap Mariah. And so, we just said, this is a beautiful place. This is a place where we know if we can. We want to raise our kids and some place like this. We were lit. My wife and I were fairly newlyweds. We were both working in New York City, commuting from Connecticut. You know, this is

10:34 Not really what we want for our kids. And Vermont, was it up here without really any any inclination of what the, what the politics were like at all. And I got involved in Vermont politics because the justice of the peace who had married, my wife and me and two years earlier was the only person I knew. And she happened to be a representative for Manchester by backgrounds in advertising and marketing, What should I do? If she said that? That was, that was my emotions.

11:17 There's so many wonderful things about politics were so small redrawing, the district lines currently in a seven-person board. And you'll 4,300 people is the number of for each House of Representatives member that we have done, you can go door-to-door and you know, your politician can talk to know everybody on a personal basis of me how you talk to people in other states and this just unheard of. So that's sort of that sort of a wonderful. Very rare thing that we had. What a wonderful tradition that was coming to Vermont from Connecticut. Are we didn't have anything like that in this? Wow. This is what wonderful, communities have been worried that things are becoming so polarized.

12:14 Over over that time and people get heated that. We can't really have conversations with one another, everybody retreats to their corner and it's, it's, it's like I can't, I can't discuss something with you. If you don't hate this politician or that policy, which I just think it's a pretty warped. Way of I'm not a big fan of Donald Trump by any stretch of the imagination, but I don't think it should be a qualification that I despise him in order for somebody to want to have a conversation. You know, I was with Bernie Sanders.

12:58 Well, I I can't discuss anything with you if you like him or voted for him or or won't denounce everything that he's ever said. That means you know that one of the things that you missed when you lived here in the 90s was the conversation about Soviet Union and it really was a quite amazing process that the court said something had to change the governor, gave it back to the legislature the legislature proposed civil unions. And then at that point they set up he's talkin teams that set up. Small meetings all over the state and had conversations about it with people. And I went to one of them, they took questions, they answer questions and then there's conversation. So we were a hashing it out as communities. It was quite amazing and whatever resistance people may have had, they couldn't say, they didn't have a voice.

13:58 There was an opportunity to not only be listened to but to be heard and I think I fell in love with you know, I think if we could do that about health care or about climate change or the other issues, if there was a Structure for the conversation to happen.

14:24 Think we could.

14:27 I think the presence of portion is a great issue of very much protein is but, you know, I'm get the concerned about abortion. I really get it tonight. I don't feel like I could put myself as a hundred percent one side or the other. There's a, there's a lot on both sides of that. If we could find a way to have that conversation, we can come up with reasonable policy that protects people in both directions proposal fight going to be on the ballot that year from now the Constitutional Amendment and I think they are trying to put together some sort of structure. But one of the things that worries me, particularly from from my perspective is a lot of people who are more libertarian conservative social conservative in Vermont. Don't feel comfortable showing up.

15:25 At the at these conversations. I've been following very closely the the climate change as well hang out with their, their proposals. Now and I know for a fact that I'm having watched it only a certain group of people are showing up at these community.

15:50 Talking sessions, the pit that they put on and a lot of the problems that they're having is that they're trying to reach out to the bipod community and a lot of the complaints that we're hearing from the bipod Community is the hosting, these things are putting together, the end of the organizational, structure for people to come into the room, but the complaint is, well, they're not actually going out in the communities. The issue, the invitation to tell people how to come to tell people what they want to do, and people don't feel comfortable coming into these situations. So they're not coming at all. And you have to do a better job of Outreach to make him feel comfortable in the first place.

16:27 I'm with you. I think that, you know, what, we had was like town that that structure of community conversation is important, but a lot of work needs to be done. Not just setting up those rooms but making sure that everybody feels welcome when they come in during the preparation doing the foundation. So that people are safe to talk. I can certainly understand why a black person might not want to show up and white Vermont and have a conversation about something controversial, you know, in Liberal, Vermont.

17:15 Concerned organic farm down in the, in the Brattleboro area and she, and she, and her husband. So no eggs produce, all that stuff. And she decided she was going to run for office as a Republican and the people in her community boycotted the farm and they're great people and I think they have to leave. And so, you'll get to it. You know, I'm not showing up, you know, you're conservative business owner. I'm not showing up at that climate change discussion, because if I say something that's wrong, you know, I could lose my business. I can lose. My job is very, very real feel.

18:15 Be able to respect somebody else's point of view without discarding them.

18:20 So we take that that, what you're describing with you, or your friends, who have the farm that they leave the state, that reinforces the perspective of the, that liberal Community because there are fewer preservatives and more liberals than, and it just compounds the problem. And it also shows that the tactic works. So if a tactic works, then you're more likely to repeat it, you know, if it's a tactic so much as if a gut reaction, I mean, it might be a tactic. It's self-defeating if it is. And I, I wonder if tournament goes on in the polarisation is that we attribute motives.

19:14 That seemed clear to us as we attribute them. But if they say they're unconscious and I and because we attributed malevolence to the other side, then it's hard to have enough respect to have the conversation and I think that I assume that's confusing. Then if I have protected malevolence on me for something that I think it's moral and ethical.

19:44 Yeah, and I asked you, I have this experience talking to my Virginia urologists. They all live in Virginia and they only are connected to people who are conservative and I feel totally

20:01 Update in, in denouncing, liberals and mocking them. You know, when I moved from California, my uncle talks about. Oh, yeah, all the gays and fruits there. Like, you know, this is actually real people, you know, they were with, but I can't talk to them because they have dismissed me so much. So whatever. I said gets filtered through that. Yeah, but you don't know what you're talkin because you're a communist or or what whatever, you know, and I think I think, I guess what I'm trying to say is the attribution of motives.

20:41 Makes it difficult to move forward. I agree with you. 100%, And I think you're right. I think people do, I think that's a big part of the problem, raising of that to whoever we disagree with when in truth everybody thinks that they are on the side of morality and good. You do? I do everybody. That's how many to take some of the most evil people and in the history of the world and they thought they were doing a great thing that the history was going to say to Joseph Stalin. All these people thought they were doing a great thing for the world. They thought that they were on the side of right and good week. We look back and say, well maybe not so but they thought they were and it if we can just fix it that the person who's sitting across from us believes that they're doing something right and the bear on the side of what is moral.

21:41 And they're coming at the issue from that perspective. Then I think it would be a lot easier to respect what they have to say and try to come to some sort of understanding and maybe figure out.

21:54 Hey, well, there's an aspect of what they're saying that I completely agree with and we can incorporate those most shared values and into a way to move forward. But you know, and I do watch politics that, you watch it very closely at what woke me up, home state of Virginia and watching from the sidelines and what's happening in the politicians, have a 8.

22:20 A stake in Good vs. Evil arguments and whenever you try to frame something as good vs Evil go, the person that you're on the other side from is evil and you're good. And that is the best of polarizing Dynamic and it the more it becomes that everything's good vs Evil. That means that were always trying to battle the devil instead of coming to a agreement with somebody who is similar to us in many ways that

22:58 Expect you emotionally that have been polarized.

23:05 Oh my goodness. So many actually, one of the things that you mentioned in your end and your thing about authoritarianism as you know, again, that's one of those that that's a term that

23:19 That is associated with people like, Hitler, people like Stalin people like, now that they were authoritarians and I just don't see, libertarianism conservative it as being authoritarian. I do see a authoritarianism on the other authority authority. The root of that term is the government has the authority to make decisions for the for the individual. So, if the government has the authority to decide, you know, what, kind of car I drive, what kind of fuel I have my kids learn in school. That's an authoritarian Society. It's not an authoritarian society in which I have the right to make those decisions for myself and the government protects my right to to make those decisions for myself. So it really does bother me when when you see terms like that being thrown around.

24:11 I did a tickle in a pejorative way.

24:14 Do you see?

24:18 Dangerous arteries, authoritarianism with the

24:25 The adherence to loyalty to Trump.

24:32 No, I don't see.

24:35 Trump is an authoritarian. I see lots of problems with him. I think he's a megalomaniac would not. Personally, I never voted for him in a primary. I did vote for him in the general elections because I thought he was the lesser of two evils but not happily.

25:02 I hope it goes away when I use that word. I think of

25:19 The word. What seems apparent to me.

25:25 Is a, a willingness in the Trump supporters to let one man?

25:34 To give one man, the authority to override the election or to override the

25:43 The structure of the government, you know, to to fire people who in government, who will oppose him that sort of thing just to fire. The people that they had of the different departments who might be able to respond to what happened in January 6th. That's something he did right before, like days before the January 6th and that at, that's what I mean by authoritarianism, Douglas an individual, who will override the Democratic process and take that power for himself outside of the democratic structure. And I wonder if when you use it, if if you are there shows of difference there, what you mean by it. I think I have solutely. There's a difference between

26:31 Between those things up, you know.

26:36 I have very great respect for the Democratic process and for the Constitution. It's part of my job is to uphold. It makes people understand what it is and

26:52 Politicians on both sides of the aisle have been running roughshod over the Constitution for decades and see how you look at what's happening with with no First Amendment protections, you know, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of assembly, freedom to petition, the government for a redress of grievance. All that is is under serious attack. Specifically, the job's not specifically given to the federal government, rivers are reserved to the states. I mean, that's been thrown completely out the window. So many aspects of our constitution.

27:28 Have been trampled on, you know, I said, I hope we can cut back all of the Kudzu that's grown up around it and choked it over the years and get back to what it's supposed to do. If we can use different language that for me not to use the word authoritarian and when I'm speaking to somebody room, it means something different. I've been asked to read your bio and I think I'll do that so that it's on the audio better, right? If I interrupted of Court Diane, can you do great. Hi, I'm Betty talk to both of you. But here I am because Karen is having some connection issues. I was going to observe anyway, but now what I'm going to be is the voice. He's going to be doing the prompts in the in the text, but she will also be emailing me if there.

28:28 Something that she wants me to break it and say and I just thought, I'd let you know why I'm here. And if, if there's something that she would hardly ordinarily, say to you. I guess I'm going to be the ventriloquist dummy here this morning. But yes, Diane you should go ahead and and do as you were planning to do. Thank you. I wish I could do it but I'm not responsible for it. But I think so. This is what Rob has written about himself and I moved to Vermont my wife and I moved to Vermont over 20 years ago, looking for a better environment to raise our children. I gave up my job as a writer in the creative Department of a Madison Avenue, advertising agency, a career. I dreamed about since my teenage years.

29:26 To be a stay-at-home dad for my daughter and two years later my son as well. That was probably the most defining decision of my life.

29:37 That is a big decision.

29:40 It was said that I don't regret it for a minute.

29:45 It's nice.

29:49 So we kind of lost our thread there with.

29:57 So when you left, when you left, cuz it Connecticut. Is that what you said? Rip in Connecticut, working in the morgue when you when you left there. I was wondering if you

30:11 If it was culture shock.

30:14 Come in here. Yes or no. It wasn't. It wasn't, as we said earlier in our conversation. Like I grew up in in Virginia and spend a lot of time and we're switching you where I went to high school. So, I was used to the country, but it was certainly very different.

30:34 I was in my late twenties, I guess out, like I said, like I said, just turned 30 when we moved up here.

30:45 It was certainly very different pace of day for me. You know, I was used to getting up very early catching a train. Going into New York City, doing my job, getting on a train coming back and here I was working from my wife at the time was

31:02 Six or seven months pregnant when we made the move. So when we first moved here, I had nothing to do until my daughter came and then send it with that. I mean, that was just a hole and it was, it was incredible. It was just such an incredible experience to be able to to be able to share that. And a big part of my politics comes from experiences like that. But the issue that got me most involved in politics back when I was in my late teens or early 20s with school choice.

31:51 And which is a big issue. Now, it in Vermont with the with the de Mendoza, Supreme Court case and the debate over, whether or not to allow students, to go to the nearest wishing dollars from work or school choice system here in Vermont to go to religious schools, but said, the reason that I say school choice was such a big and important issue for me is because I went to when my parents moved us to Connecticut, when I was seven, I went to public school system and it was, it was one of the best public school systems in the country at the time and probably still is, but I didn't do well there at all. I mean, I was a little Southern kid with a Southern accent. The said yes, sir. Yes, ma'am. To the teachers which did not go over well with my beers and I was I was also young cuz I had skipped a grade. So I was and I was not, I was not big so I was very small.

32:51 Young kid. I wasn't good at that wasn't as good as kickball, if the kids were a year year-and-a-half older than me. So I guess I just did not do well in that environment at all. So I was lucky 1162a. I did it for 3 years. So no one sixth grade after sixth grade. My parents sent me to private school and said, you know, this is just not the right environment for a Robert. We need to find one where he's going to drive and they were able to send me to a private school where I did very well, I remember it was a bright kid and I goofed off and I remember mr. Rogers. Not that not, that the friendly TV Guide. This is my Latin teacher and seventh grade, fiery red hair balding, fiery Red Beard caught me. Goofing off in study hall one day and he put his face about 6 inches from mine and said you better get your butt in gear.

33:50 And start doing well in my class cuz you have the capacity to do it and it scared me to death. And that was the kind of environment that I needed to thrive. And I got involved in school choice, to send me to a different school to buy my way out of a system. That was failing me and I feel every kid should have the opportunity to find that place where they can Thrive and if their parents can't afford it then that the public school system needs to make allowances to make that kind of that kind of opportunity happen and they are similar usually with my kids, you know.

34:38 Did the benefit? My mom was a stay-at-home mom. I was a stay-at-home Dad. I know that's not possible for everybody based on based on family finances, but to the extent that we can help people give those kinds of experiences to their kids.

34:55 I think that that that's one of the roles that the government should play. And I think it doesn't do that very well, which you agree with parts of the legislation is being debated right now and can Congress around child tax credits, that sort of thing that support for families and being able to make those decisions. I think that the child tax credit start or a pretty good idea. I don't know enough about them. I would support the policy or not. But I like the I like the thought behind it. Where are you? What what are your thoughts on that?

35:46 Yeah, I know. I'm a Libertarian conservative and I believe in the founding documents of our country and it says that the government is there to help us pursue life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. And if that's your idea of pursuing happiness is to do. So with the person of the same sex. I don't have a problem ramping up of these websites on Wedge issues, that are trying to divide us, not as much as you know that. Well.

36:22 I don't know. I don't like the ramping up the wedges shoes in in such a way as to put people against each other. I do think that they're important issues that need to be discussed. Now, going on with what's being taught in the public school. That's why I think it's a big deal to me. If you want your kids to learn about critical race Theory and and all that stuff. Go for it. Send your kids to that school. If you don't want your kids learning that, if you want to learn something else, find a place where they can, what, where they can do that and then you create more choices for more people and far as I can tell, there are very few schools anywhere in the country that are teaching critical race Theory. The dads are constructed issue to divide us that if that's an academic issue created in Academia, and it's just I mean, it's just not

37:22 Heat it up in order to create fear for electoral process. I think it's extreme because you want to motivate people to go out and vote and the idea that everything is fine isn't a way to do this. But but you know with with some of the, I do believe that but some of what's being taught to students is

37:50 Israel and it is beyond the pale of it cuz it's just, there's just too many examples of it that that you can point to. And I know that, you know, critical race theory is, is it's a college-level discipline, but I guess the analogy that at that, I would use this. It's like, you know what the school says. We don't teach Marxism in our in our schools because reading the Communist Manifesto is a, is a is a college-level exercise, but all of our teachers are dedicated Marxist, and we do have posters throughout the school of Marx, Engels Stalin and Mao with their quotes and we do fly to hammer and sickle over the school. And we encourage a culture in which everybody calls each other comrade. But we also Marxism in our school. That's sort of the way. I see, see that out and that that playing out right now and I feel like that kind of comparison that kind of

38:50 Analogy, stirs up the emotional reactivity that doesn't really serve the conversation because

39:01 For instance, going up in Virginia. One of the pivotal experiences for me was the racism in a single race of the black community is a few blocks from where I live in equities. There. Those are real issues those already and racism and lack of healthcare, and that separate but equal schools. No textbooks, that sort of thing, that's a real issues. And if we compare the issue to Marxism, and we compare the people who want to inform about racism, We compare them to the Slime that hammer and sickle over the school. Then there's not much room for conversation or you can take the analogy and put it on the other side as well. And then say, you know, where we're not a racist school, but we fly the stars and bars over the

39:57 Over over this school. We don't discuss Civil War. We must, we understand it. It's not going to change. And if we polarize the conversation, by comparing it, to identify the Eagles, one way or the other identified denial or identified, communism a conversation, and we have to have the conversation. But we do have two children as I was going, or I was taught in the 9th grade that the Civil War was fought over taxation.

40:47 That it did not involve slavery.

40:51 And as a 9th grader, you know, I was like, oh, wow, I didn't know that. So I took that in as real and had to relearn it. As I got older, we have to be able to talk about what our history is, and what are our individual and Collective history towards other. People who spend? Oh, I don't disagree at all. I think, would we have to have those conversations and we should teach history? And that, that's one of the things I think that is.

41:23 Not helpful from that that debate from the other side is saying that that if you, if you oppose the specific way that history is being taught to say the 1619 project and you don't want to teach about slavery and racism at all. I think it's it's not true. I think that the folks who are conservative do want to teach about racism, and do want to teach about history. Do you want to teach about slavery in and all of the all of the ugly sides of our history? But through a lens that is talked about America and the United States as

41:59 Start of this is the beacon of Freedom that it really has been for very short history, where a multi-racial society that is very unique in the history of the world. The free again, we've made tremendous strides and overcoming racism, or over are going to just just in our lifetimes. I see a lot of people that want to deny that progress. I haven't read that. I have you read it. I'll be curious to know why I haven't read the whole thing. I just read the what are those pieces that you signed are? We should be revising and how we teach about racism.

42:48 Well, I guess I don't think that we should be teaching.

42:52 White children to be guilty for what your ancestors did and I don't think we should be teaching a black or other minorities that they are somehow oppressed. And and is it to the point where we take away their ability to manage their own do that? Well, I think that the notion that the American history begins with slavery and the first slave ship is very, it is very controversial and that I haven't read the whole, the 1619 project. But, you know, I've also read some of like a pro Max Kennedy's work in Robin, D'Angelo's work, and it is about

43:41 White people are inherently guilty for upholding structural racism. And there's nothing you can do about. It can be really psychologically damaging. I think on both sides of the equation went would either you go into a room and you said your wife and that's a problem because simply by virtue of being why you are of a systemic you've benefited from systemic racism in your part of the problem. And you can't really fix that problem. Again, it is black and white construction, that leaves no room for understanding. Yeah, and I, I agree.

44:24 I haven't, I haven't seen examples of that actually happening, but somebody, if it is happening. I think that would be a problem. I think that the difficulty is that as adults, we need to take that on in order to understand, you know, to be looking at all the different sides of that because otherwise, we can't find middle G. You know, it, it makes me think of, I no longer a participant in the Quakers, but I was kind of a Quaker Meeting for years. And one of the things, one of the major tenants there is that when there's a controversial issue, is so important to hear all sides, and if we do that, we hear the wisdom in each side, and we can come to a place in the center. That's true.

45:13 Not, it's not so much of that compromise, but we, if we actually hear what the wisdom is in the opposing argument, then we can integrate that wisdom into

45:29 A different truth. Then we come into the conversation with and I feel like that's part of what has to happen with the conversation about racism. That we need to hear the horror of it in order to be able to, to take the kernel of wisdom there, an integrated into a different understanding than then, an opposing position on that. And I said that, it seems like the 1619 project Charter offers part of that opportunity. I don't read it because I'm expecting it to be pretty disturbing, especially coming from a family, whose ancestors were slaveholders. It's like, that's not an easy thing to integrate. And I feel like I have to be in a good place in order to be able to actually sit through this and read it and understand and

46:26 React to it, and then take what I need to, and I think we can't we can't find that kind of love wisdom. Unless we actually consider the value of what the others is saying, not just not just respectfully, listen, but to consider how true it is in its own way.

46:52 Okay, that makes sense. It'll prompt you to change direction cuz we're doing great. But the Diane who has been an influential person in your life. And what did they teach you?

47:04 Well, to people come to mine. One of them was a I took a two-weekend meditation course in California. And if we're such a short time that you would I think it really changed my life. I was I had a direct experience of seeing life beyond just my own personal concern and then the other person was a teacher. I am a psychotherapist and I studied body-mind Psychotherapy for years and my teacher.

47:45 He didn't influence me so much by the language that he spoke. But the way they lived, you know, the the generosity and they believe in life and I think that people like that become templates for me their aspirational, but their templates or how life can be lived. And I think that's the greatest influence for me that the level of acceptance of where I am, and who I am now and the understanding of what's possible.

48:25 Yeah. How about you?

48:29 Individual people. I mean, if there's so many people that have had an influence on my life, according to a study by my, parent's, starting with my spouse, starting with my kids. They've all had to spend, if I had to say the most influential at a dimension to send one of our documents. I'm going to, I'm going to put it to a place and not to an individual person in that was my experience at the high school. I went to, I just had a boring school in Northern Virginia, call Woodberry forest. And there we had a strict Honor Code. That was very simple. Don't lie. Don't cheat, don't steal her man. It was, it was taken, seriously. I know a lot of schools have honor code, so I don't know how seriously, they take them, but one of the things that

49:13 I still remember this day. We had a thing called a white flag. They didn't lock any doors on campus. But if, if you was a student, we're not allowed to go into a certain space. They would take something called a white flag to the door, and it was your responsibility when nobody was looking, you know, that you don't, you don't do that. You respect that, you don't do it. And that honor code is something that I can do. I really have to try to live by and then you know, how I treat my relationship. So now I treat my passions, you know, Mike my hobbies in the things that I like and how I treat my job and how I deal with people. I don't always live up to it. Well, I went to Mary Washington College in Boston yet and we had the same Monica. We didn't have the white flag, but we would go to the dining hall and leave our persons out on the steps.

50:13 Never occurred to us. That that would be a problem. Never and it wasn't, I never knew of any incident. So I know what you mean, what the society can be like. When those values are upheld, you know, the freedom that would give us to be able to trust each other. That was your trust our own integrity.

50:42 I got another question here. Diane. Could you briefly describe in your own words, your personal political values?

50:52 A small question. Something is easy to my personal political values are

51:04 That.

51:05 Each of us.

51:08 Is it part of the whole?

51:12 That we we that our lives are not separated that we are actually.

51:21 A full unit together and that because of that, when we help each other, we're helping the whole we're helping ourselves. And when we go into scarcity, and I have to, I have to take from you in order to give to my cell. We're actually hurting ourselves. And so politically I would say

51:48 Two.

51:50 The value is to support those who have left to support those.

52:00 Who are challenged?

52:03 To share what I have.

52:08 To support the rights of people who are disrespected to try to support the community as a whole.

52:18 So that the as a whole the community Rises together and that we are not opposing each other, but we can flourish together.

52:29 As pretty Broad and general. I don't know if that's helpful.

52:38 About you.

52:40 It's funny because it's actually very, very similar to what what you what you're talkin about. I got, you know, I consider myself a constitutionalist. I believe, I believe in the founding principles of life. Liberty Pursuit of Happiness. That is what government is. That's why we create governments has to uphold those values and those freedoms strong believer in, in the, in the Bill of Rights. Particularly Young on the First Amendment.

53:07 As a, there's a reason why it's why it's the first. And when we have that freedom to get to, what you were talking about Diane is, is people are free to find the morality of free market. Capitalism that I see, is that before we can help ourselves. We have to find a way to provide value for somebody else.

53:30 Which is unique economic and political systems because when you have a system where, you know, if you take you take because you're entitled to something.

53:43 You don't have to provide anything in return value for that, but in the free market capital of system, if I want to buy my lunch, I have to figure out. In my case. I have to write an op-ed that somebody wants to pay for because they value it. So I have to provide them with something they value before, they provide me with something, I value. But just the money I got for that, which I then going and buy a sandwich and that person before they can pay their rent has to provide me that sandwich with which I value. So, the freedom of society, the reason why the United States and it wasn't his work. So well to lift so many people out of poverty.

54:23 In such an understanding way, it's because we're forced to understand each other's value. The person who sells me that sandwich, as to know what kind of sandwich. I like. They have to know me as a person in order to provide that. I have to know. I have two for the people that I work with. I have to understand them to understand what they value. And that's how do you say inequity, this half-baked, they financial and social equality with happening in the country or fellow citizens and others. You know, Bill Gates has provided a lot more value for Humanity than then I have is well shows that but what you see and in places like, the United States, in the places that have embraced free-market capitalism, is that the rising tide doesn't lift all boats to the same degree. But at least everybody what we call poverty in this country.

55:23 Serious, and it's something that needs to be addressed and we should never be complacent about lifting people hire but it's it's I would much rather be a poor person in this country than a rich person. And some of the countries have not embraced free-market. Capitalism in terms of Access to Health Care, access to education, access to civil rights.

55:44 It. If it means that we have, you know, you on mosques and and then Jeff Bezos has engaged in the Space Race where the rest of us are not engage, you know, I'm willing to live with that, that consequence. If it means that we have the level of healthcare, the level of education and the speed with, which we've made progress on issues, like an equality on issues, like civil rights for four groups that have been historically marginalized. Those are all products of a free market capitalism. The free flow of ideas, and embracing life, liberty and pursuit of happiness in slavery. Frederick Douglass Rights Movement baseball. Go back to that life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. All men are created equal and endowed by our creator, with certain inalienable rights. Everybody goes back to that.

56:44 It's not it's not a dead letter written by crusty old white guys. 250 years ago. That's what everybody goes back to today because that's the rock-solid principle that that our progress is founded on. If we get rid of it. We're in big trouble support getting rid of it. I think of it, I might agree. I'm not sure I believe that it's paying off for the country in the same way. They did, the capitalism is paying off when the the percentage of wealth as mountains funneled to a handful of people to be able to use on.

57:32 Taking space trips, where

57:37 I don't know what the percentage is ours. This huge percentage of people can't afford to send their kids to the school. So they would like to, they can't afford to have nutritious food. They can't afford Healthcare.

57:54 What do I do with that? When the the wealth is all held by such a few people? I can't see how that's really moving the fault the country forward. It seems like it's is creating.

58:09 Aesthetic, colorization that will only get worse as that. Well, continues to accumulate in the hands of a few and comes from the people who were working for wages working to try to support their kids in a ride working, two jobs, sometimes more. It's like we're meant something very imbalance that if it's not that you're not as created. It's not that they don't work is hard and yeah, they don't have room in their lives for the big idea that creates the startups that move the country forward, but

58:51 What do we do with that system is becoming more and more of a cast.

58:58 Well, I do think that.

59:01 There is.

59:05 I see that, I see the problem that you're that you're talking about. But one of the things that I see as being creating a caste system, I won't call it a caste system. But it at this more of a permanent underclass in this country is is actually the policies that our government oriented.

59:23 Welfare policies? Because it, it's called me and they call it the benefits cliff.

59:29 And I see it so, so often now with people is like, if you, if you reach a certain level of income.

59:36 You lose benefits that are in excess of the income that you would get. So I see a lot of people say, well no, don't don't give me the Rays boss because if I if I accept the Rays then I lose my child care. I lose my housing benefit or whatever. It may be.

59:55 Once you make that decision,

59:58 You have decided to be poor for the rest of your life.

01:00:02 Because you will never ever move beyond that level of income and you will never ever break that level of dependency. So so that is what we really, I think need to get to break. I think I agree with that. But it's a, it's a double bind that is impossible to get out of with the system setup. Is it is, I do agree.

01:00:32 Yeah.

01:00:34 Yeah.

01:00:38 So I guess we've got one last question here. It says his focus. Is there anything you learned about me today? That surprise you.

01:00:48 Well, I'm not sure I would use the word surprise. I think if I didn't anticipate any meeting ground, I probably wouldn't have grade. Check traffic conversation.

01:01:02 Why would say please no more like this last digit of conversation, pretty much agree. You know, I think they're joining places for both of us. That is helpful to remember to back away from the the demonization of people who think differently

01:01:31 I bet you. Same thing. I wouldn't say surprised. I thought it was a wonderful conversation. I really enjoyed getting to know you and getting to meet you a little bit. I'll keep my eye out for you next time. I'll put in the Burlington area and if I see, I'll fly you down and we can keep going over a cup of coffee somewhere, right then. Thank you. Very interesting.

01:02:03 I'm just going to jump in. If you can hear me. Can you hear me? We haven't been sure who was on First and who was on second. For this whole thing. I'm Karen is there, she's the one who's been giving you the questions and we both been monitoring the conversation, but I just wanted to

01:02:21 And I don't have parents permission. So I'm just hoping that she says, sorry you can't see or hear me.

01:02:28 One of the things that surprised me and one of the things that we thought was really fun that you had in common. Was that your you both are engaged in the Arts? And I just wondered if you, if you would indulge me and I know that Karen is laughing at me now, but if you would just indulge me and describe to one another, what it is you do artistically that

01:02:51 I'm not going to tell you what it is that you have in common, but you have something really fun. And now she wondered, if you'd share that.

01:03:00 I'll go first with that until my mid-forties. I was a professional artist. I was at a metalsmith. I made a brass and copper vessels that hammered out of flat sheet cups bowl. And then I went to graduate school and became a psychotherapist, but I've retired and I've started painting. What's your medium? Cuz that's my artistic. Yeah. Yeah. Tell me about your paintings. I've been painting on and off as a hobby for I guess, 15, 18 years. Something like that in high school and but really started as a serious Hobby and I, recently started painting just with nice out. Like

01:04:00 That that's sort of where I turn the corner. It's like, you know, my my brush painting was pretty, but when I started playing with knives, I created a texture and Anna, look that I really think it's actually actually sold about 15 paintings over this past year. I started selling, I started selling it last January at the friend of mine store here in Stow. And so far, it's sold about us 12 or 13. What, what subjects? Mostly Landscapes, or my family so hard for me, but it's cool. So what do you like to do? I like to paint Landscapes and specially trees, we can compare them kind of person. I'm taking a landscape painting class at the Pennsylvania Academy of Fine Arts.

01:04:59 Giselle remote. My wife got me that for a for Christmas, who's your teacher? But I'm out of my league. I totally out of my leg, but it doesn't matter. It's like swimming lessons. Nobody can see what you're doing. It's all I can generally surprised. It's how are you? How are you? Why? Why are you surprised that? We both took a dive mean that this is too small world man. Maybe we're both my Virginia. I mean, maybe these guys set it up that way. Maybe it's true. It's a small world. That's what I was talking about. We are all part of the same sea.

01:05:59 I don't show my work because I am not confident about it. It's it. Oh, and then I left therapy and I'm a total beginner and it's very humbling. It's fun, though. What's the name of the gallery? Where you showing actually not a gallery. It's a, it's a place called The Body Lounge, my friend best God W, owns it, and started out as selling to spawn stuff, but it's sort of evolved into a sort of a gift shop with, with art and original jewelry. And okay, I guess I got my plug in there, so you can. Yeah, absolutely.

01:06:57 I think Karen has been trying to join us. I've seen another user trying to come on and then go off again and we will solve these problems but there is some business to take care of that. I'm not. I've not done this before so it has to do with releases and and then sort of saying I shall we hang in here briefly and see if Karen aunt's is Karen Anderson has left the call. So she's probably trying to get back to us. If you want to just take a breath, I can see if I can figure out in my notes. What we need to do, but I'm seeing somebody else, trying to reply. Now. Can you hear me now and issues? I was there the entire time. I watched your beautiful conversation, and I'm really sorry that we had some technical difficulties, but I think the conversation went really well. I'm going to snow.