Ruby Johnson and Carrie Bennett

[00:04] CARRIE LEANNE JOHNSON BENNETT: My name is Carrie Leanne Johnson Bennett. I am 40 years old. Today is November 20, 2020. I am in Gonzales, Louisiana, and I am speaking with my interview partner, who's my mom, Ruby

[00:31] RUBY JOHNSON: My name is Ruby Johnson. My age is 68. Today is November 20, 2020. My location is Woodbridge, Virginia. I am speaking with my partner, my daughter and her relation. Oh, I'm sorry. I am speaking with my partner, Carrie, who is my daughter. I'm sorry. Hi, Mom. Hello, Mrs. Bennet. How are you? Good, good, good, good.

[01:16] CARRIE LEANNE JOHNSON BENNETT: It's good to actually see you.

[01:18] RUBY JOHNSON: It's nice to see you, too.

[01:21] CARRIE LEANNE JOHNSON BENNETT: Well, I'm happy to be doing this with you. I feel that it is. It seems like this tends to happen in segments in our lives because we've had. Well, we've been in situations where you've had to talk about granddaddy, your dad, and. But I've always just been accompanying you. So this is new. It's the same thing, but it's a little nuance to it. And there's one thing I've noticed over the years is that there's always been a lot, especially over the Internet, about granddaddy, but it's always voter registration, his assassination. But talk about. Talk to me about him as a person and as a father.

[02:24] RUBY JOHNSON: Okay. Before we really get into answering all the questions, I want to say for this recording, I will refer to my father, your grandfather, as Daddy or my daddy. And sadly for all of the grandchildren, except for the oldest, who could talk at the time, and his brother, they. Daddy was known to them as Pawpaw. And so I think that name may have been given by that title, may have been given by Daddy to Jesse or by my sister Wilma. Yes. So having said that, who was who? You asked me to tell you a little bit about Daddy. Very, very small in statue, but had an impeccable wave with the way he conducted himself, as very respectful of himself and also respectful of others, but not to the point. The respectfulness wasn't prideful. He wasn't. He wasn't a boastful person. Pride in that way, but just pride and having character and integrity really meant a lot to him. And he enjoyed. He really enjoyed the farm. Although it was hard work. He had a lot of joy in. And farming. He liked. He enjoyed his church work. He enjoyed his family. He, you know, and he just had a sense of directions, a sense of priority. And with Daddy and telling his story, it's almost like Daddy's life was in line. So when I. When I say, well, who Was Daddy. Oh, he was this very small man, you know, that had all of these goals and priorities that he wanted to. That he wanted to accomplish.

[05:10] CARRIE LEANNE JOHNSON BENNETT: Well, I'm sure that. I know that that had to impact. Impact how he raised you all. So how would you. How did that. How did that shape the way you saw him as a father or the way you see him as a father, rather?

[05:29] RUBY JOHNSON: Oh, if, you know, people will ask me, and I know one of my brothers asked me years ago, he said, well, who do you think was your example? And the reason why. Let me go back. The reason why he asked me that was because these teenagers at the time were naming all of these athletes as they are an example. For me, they are example. And so he said, well, Ruby, who was your example? And I said, daddy and Mom. And he said, really? And I said, of course they were. I said. I said. I said, ray, they taught us everything. They taught us how to just be respectful of ourselves. They taught us how to respect others. And I said, and then they gave us the opportunity to have a voice. They taught us that hard work wouldn't kill you. It didn't mean that just because you lived on a farm or just because you worked on a farm or just because you lived in the south, that hard work was just something Southerners did. But anything you had to do was hard work if you wanted to achieve goals that you had set for yourself. So having a sense of purpose as far as what you would do for others. And he took the same pride in. And making sure that we were in Sunday school, making sure we were in church. And when if mother was ill, Daddy didn't say, okay, you guys are too little. You need to stay at home. He would say to my sisters, hey, you guys need to know. He would say, gina, Bessie, you all need to get those children ready. That's not what they said in that time, but you need to get them ready so they can go to church, too, or they can go to Sunday school. We weren't left behind because we were small. He actually took us with him.

[07:39] CARRIE LEANNE JOHNSON BENNETT: So it was more like how. Like how sometimes a lot of dads, like, look, I. Look, I'm not about to be bothered with that, especially a girl, you know, because sometimes I go through that with Lorenzo. It's not that. It's not that he doesn't care, doesn't want Gabrielle to be with him, but when she was little, it was like, you gonna do her hair? You're gonna have our clothes out, you know, because he was so, like, you know, I Don't want to say nervous. I mean, I guess nervous would be a good word. So. But in the case with, with Granddaddy, it was almost, I guess what you're saying is it's almost like there, there was no reason for it. He was going to find a way because he, he was very involved, you know, and didn't, didn't allow anything to, to keep him from being involved in and still allowing things to go on even if grandma couldn't do it. Right, that's what you're saying?

[08:30] RUBY JOHNSON: Yes. And mother always said, she said that daddy used to say to her, you know, all of these children, but everyone has a purpose and everyone is going to be, all of them are going to be different, although we are their parents, but they, they are going to be, they're going to be different. And she also, she also said, but, but he was a great leader. He led by example. And if you recall, you know, when you all, when you all were growing up, I would say to you all or say to your dad, well, aren't you going to go and show them or aren't you going to go out and be with them? And he would say, no, why would I have to do that? Because you are their father. That's what daddy did for us, you know.

[09:19] CARRIE LEANNE JOHNSON BENNETT: Yeah, because you would say, john will put y'all on punishment, but he doesn't see to it that you're punished.

[09:28] RUBY JOHNSON: That's right.

[09:32] CARRIE LEANNE JOHNSON BENNETT: Hands on.

[09:33] RUBY JOHNSON: Yes. I, I grew up with a very hands on parent and it did not bother me. And I thought that's how all parents were going to be and should be. I really did. I, I believe that maybe it was because I was nine, so young and growing up all of those years without him that my mindset was groomed as a nine year old.

[10:04] CARRIE LEANNE JOHNSON BENNETT: Yeah, that makes sense.

[10:06] RUBY JOHNSON: So when mother had to go to the field of work and from the home, I still had that mentality of the things that we had to do in the home. So.

[10:18] CARRIE LEANNE JOHNSON BENNETT: Yeah, so what, what are some other things that, that were important to him? And how would you say he showed it? Like, I know you've mentioned, you know, the having a sense of purpose, the taking, not like in an idolizing way, but, you know, having a sense of purpose. I think I said that already and like, you know, just value and taking care of the things that, I'm sorry. Taking care of the things that were his responsibility, whether it was land, whether it was the animals, whether it was his family. How would you say he, what are some other ways that you remember that he demonstrated that.

[11:04] RUBY JOHNSON: Well, I think a better question would be what wasn't important to him?

[11:12] CARRIE LEANNE JOHNSON BENNETT: Everything was top priority, huh?

[11:15] RUBY JOHNSON: Yes, but in an order. I, I don't know what foolishness wasn't important to him. He just thought that was a waste of time.

[11:27] CARRIE LEANNE JOHNSON BENNETT: Now let me ask you this. Is that why you didn't like to play so much? Like, I know, a sense of humor. It's not that I'm, you know, flighty or anything, but I have a sense of humor. But I think, I think you grew over time to understand that you could have that and still be serious minded and get things done. But growing up as kids, it was like, you know, stop being silly, stop all that silliness, you know. But I would find when I visited south that all the Auntie Wilma and all them would say to say, y'all, stop all that silliness, y'all. And I was like, what is up with the, with the, with them. And then stop all the silliness. And now it, it, it makes sense. I, I, I get it.

[12:15] RUBY JOHNSON: And, and he didn't like for us to copy what others did. He, he really didn't. And it was as it, if you, if you had something that you did that he thought wasn't purposefully, then he may, he would, he would put a stop to it. But there was a time for relaxing and enjoyment. Now like I said, you have to realize my daddy stopped for me at 9. Mother left the home and went into the field. So therefore this nine year old had to learn all of these things from her sister. You know, more work, more things to do in the house, like preparing meals, learning how to cook, all those things. It was as though you didn't really have time for those things. And then there was school. So what was important to him? School was very important to him, Extremely important to him. And I think that was because of his challenge of learning how with my mom teaching him how to sign his name. But the one gift that he had that I know, I recognize were numbers. Ben, he had a gift for numbers and he didn't like for us to count on our fingers. One of my sisters reminded me of that. He didn't, but he, he would figure it up in his head. Now you couldn't, you couldn't cheat him, but you can rest assured that he wasn't going to cheat you. And I remember my mom told me about a story he had, he had gone to one of the local towns for something and they had given him this cash money and it was just something A white person didn't give a black person. So I don't know if daddy was testing daddy or what he was doing, but daddy did exactly what he was told to do. Turn the money in like he was supposed to, down to the penny. And so, and my mom said the, the man said to that you, you really did turn every penny in like I had given you. But that was the way he was and that was the way he taught us to be. He had, he, he would always try to explain things to you. It was just never go do this, you need to do this. And, and I think one of the habits that I know I, I really, really, really just embedded in me he had things in certain places and if we moved them, he would say, well where is this? You would say hu. And he would say well I had it here. Who moved it? So you would be afraid. Should I tell? Should I not tell? I'm going to get, I'm going to get in trouble, I'm going to get punished, I'm going to get a spanking.

[15:32] CARRIE LEANNE JOHNSON BENNETT: But.

[15:33] RUBY JOHNSON: So one day he said, look where I put my things. That's where I'm going to go back and look for them. I don't mind you using them, just put them back so I don't have to spend all this time wasted time trying to find them or trying to find you to ask now why did that make sense to this 60 some year old lady growing up? Because as I grew up and I realized that his life was so short. It was though, he, it was like, look, I have all these things to do. It was like he lived outside of himself. And I don't know if you can, I don't know if you can understand what I'm saying. It was as if daddy said, look, I'm here. I don't know if he knew his life would be short, I really don't. I just knew. I just know that he lived his life with a purpose and a mission. Did he get everything he wanted done accomplished? No, he didn't. But it was the first to purchase land. He did that. The next thing was to get it paid for. That meant that he needed a successful income which was the dairy and farming. After that he says, you know, we need a good vehicle. And the last thing on his agenda was to build a house. It bought the land. The land was paid for. He had bought a very good vehicle and he, and his next goal was he wanted a brick home. Now the funny thing in that I remember his saying he liked to dress too. Wasn't a show. But he really did like to dress. He. He really did like to, I would say, dress in a really nice way that. That you would kind of turn an eye and look at him. And he wanted this black suit. And he eventually got the black suit, and he had this gold chain to a pocket watch. And, oh, my goodness, you couldn't tell him anything when he put it on. You really couldn't. And it did. It. It looked nice on him. It really did things with dad, you know, he would always say, don't slam my car doors when he got the car. And you know what? And when he washed it, he would take us out to help him clean it and show us how it done. He would say, don't. Don't slam the door. Daddy is like, it's just a car door, but they aren't meant to be slammed. And so. And it brought that memory back to me because just before I retired, we had gone out to dinner, and the person that we went to dinner with was the incoming manager. And so the door was really heavy and slipped out of my hand. And that was the first thing she said. Oh, be careful. Don't slam my car door. I'm not the only one that feels that way.

[18:58] CARRIE LEANNE JOHNSON BENNETT: But, mom, what was the. What was the story about the shoes with going to see grandma when they were courting?

[19:06] RUBY JOHNSON: Oh, mom said he was always very particular about his appearance, and he didn't want to have, you know, being, I guess, dressed in disarray or his shoes were muddy or what. So she said he would carry him and before he got to her house, he would clean his feet off and put his socks and shoes on to make sure that when he came courting that his shoes were clean.

[19:34] CARRIE LEANNE JOHNSON BENNETT: Oh, my gosh. I. I know. I've heard. I've heard it. That now you can remember. It's funny.

[19:39] RUBY JOHNSON: Now you can remember why I was so upset with the guy with the hat and the blowing the horn in the driveway.

[19:46] CARRIE LEANNE JOHNSON BENNETT: Yes, okay. But also, too, mom, the way you would make us clean our sneakers, our shoes, period. Like, it wasn't. Because, again, you know, it wasn't making an idol out of them, but it was just simply taking care of what we had, you know, and not taking things for granted or thinking that things came easy, you know, and. And, you know, looking presentable. You know, it wasn't about trying to be flashy or showy, but, you know, looking presentable. And I can see how. How that has impacted now. You mentioned the farm a lot.

[20:27] RUBY JOHNSON: Let me go back.

[20:28] CARRIE LEANNE JOHNSON BENNETT: Oh, I'm Sorry.

[20:29] RUBY JOHNSON: No, no, no. Not only. Not only that. I think it's this perception of when you lived in the south or you lived in a wooden house, that it was supposed to be in disarray, it was supposed to be clutter. But he made sure that we understood that there was a place for everything and everything should be in its place. Although this is where we lived. It was clean. It was not. It was. It was neat. It was cool. It was comfortable. Even. Even the outdoor restroom had to be clean and kept in order. But that's who he was now. It really was who. Who he was.

[21:17] CARRIE LEANNE JOHNSON BENNETT: And, you know, before I. Before I ask you what I was going to ask you about the land, you know, to your point, you mentioned. You said you didn't know if I could really understand what you meant by him living outside of himself and, you know, not being sure if he knew that his life was going to be short. But I don't get it from having experienced that type of loss, obviously. But I do understand that people do live with a sense of urgency. Sometimes. They live with a sense of urgency. Like, I have to put this in place. I have to put this in place. And sometimes it is, you know, that intuitiveness that's like. Allows people to set things in place in the event of something untimely happening. And it just appears that that's the way the Lord allowed it to be. Because in those times, like, what the predicament that a black family would have been in if that land wasn't paid for. Wasn't paid for. You know what I mean? So that. That was a blessing. You know, it was a huge blessing. And speaking of which, with the land, you know, I know. It was, what, 139 acres, right?

[22:33] RUBY JOHNSON: Yes.

[22:34] CARRIE LEANNE JOHNSON BENNETT: Okay, 139 acres. So, you know, what were some of the things y'all did, like, as a family, like the farm responsibilities, what you did for, you know, enjoyment and. Because obviously there's. There's a lot of pride in that land. And I know how you have instilled that in us. And so, you know, talk about that a little bit.

[23:00] RUBY JOHNSON: Okay. What did we do for fun? For fun for us was really not going to the field. Not having to work in the field because it was hot and we had to carry water to everybody. So that was fun for us. But if Daddy kind of went away, we, you know, the kids would not. The kids, my siblings, they would play and talk and maybe sit down on the sack or whatever. And the funny thing is, but they would always try to make up for the work they've done. Daddy had a sense of knowing, okay, they really goofed off. They played some because they should be far along than this. He didn't get in trouble, but he didn't expect you to do that all the time. And that was where that discipline came in, you know, that, that, that self discipline. So for us, going to our, our home church, going to other churches, visiting other churches, going to see our, our grandfather and, and even sometimes if we walk down to grandpa's house, his dad, you know, those things were fun. On the days that it rained, we would really just sit on the porch and maybe shoot marbles, do hopscotch. Sunday afternoon was always Sunday dinner, you know, just, just your regular Sunday dinner. Nothing, nothing elaborate. And we sometimes, my brothers, I don't know where they learned this from, they would. We would build a fire, take mud and wrap it around the glass and heat it around a glass or a jar and put it in the fire so it could, so it could mold itself just to see if you could get the, the jar of the glass out of the. Yeah, like a mold.

[25:32] CARRIE LEANNE JOHNSON BENNETT: Yeah, I hear you.

[25:33] RUBY JOHNSON: But. Oh goodness, you know, we were crack hick nuts. I don't know why it was hick nuts. I guess CU had a hickut tree. We wanted pecans. They were easy, but we didn't have pecans. Or we wanted walnuts and we didn't have walnuts. So we did the hickut things and those things were hard. And give me how long it take you to get the, the actually out of the shell, the nut itself, I guess you call it the meat or whatever. Out of the shell. Oh, that was, that was really a chore. And occasionally he would take Shirley and I on walks with him and mother, Mother would go, but Shirley and I went. He took us, I guess because we were the youngest children, he didn't want to leave us behind. So we would walk the perimeter of the land and he would always talk about, well, see, there's a. There's the creek down there and the cows could drink water here and, and they've run all around, you know, and it, it went to the perimeter of the other property. And he would show us where our property in and someone else's start. And. And then there were land that he had not. What's the word I'm looking for? He had not cultivated and so very rich in soil. So he had ideas. Look, this down here, this part down here is lots of water set up. But it's. It was called the bottom land. But it was really rich in soil. He had a spot where he. He opened up. And I know he did this before he passed. And he used to say, wow, this is. This is a good spot for a house seat. It could be like a corner facing the road. And so we would just make it back home. And, like, we would stop sometimes for muscadines. One of our neighbors had persimmon trees, but they were mostly on our place were plums, huckleberries, blackberries. Persimmon tree, not persimmon. Muscadine trees.

[27:38] CARRIE LEANNE JOHNSON BENNETT: Okay. And he. And he. He built it. I shouldn't say built. He dug the pond right on you, all on the land.

[27:45] RUBY JOHNSON: The first one. The first one, the small one, I don't know, but I know when the larger one, I think he had someone to do it. But that's because the livestock had increased and he wanted to have a better drinking water for them because the smaller pun had gotten very small. He liked the fish. He loved to hunt. I don't know if that was out of means of food, which it was, or enjoyment or a combination of both. I know the first time I saw an eel fish was when he actually caught it in the river. When we are traveling on the way to Liberty, and I say, hey, Carrie, I'm sorry. I was baptized over here, and Daddy fished on that side.

[28:42] CARRIE LEANNE JOHNSON BENNETT: Okay, so what? What? I know. I know you all have a love of flowers and stuff, so did that come from him or Grandma?

[28:50] RUBY JOHNSON: Both. Both. Because Mother. Mother really liked blooming flowers and roses and so on Mother's Day, we didn't make roses. We would just get our rose from off the rose bush. Until later, one of the ladies in the community, she made them, and we would buy them for her. I think they were like a nickel apiece. But that was later on. But a lot of times, early years, I remember, we would just get a rose out the rose bush and put it on our clothes for Mother's Day. And he liked. He liked greenery, like our hedges. He. They were all just kind of clung up in the front yard. And so he. One. One day he decided that they needed to be circular around the house. So he and the brothers, they dug them all up and planted them all around house. And I remember. I think one of them told him, now, Danny, we have moved all these roses. This front yard is going to be mud when it rains. No, it's not. Grass is going to grow there. I'm going to fertilize it, and we will put grass there. And eventually, grass did grow. And I Remember, I think one of my. Bessie, one of, one of the girls, one of the sisters, she started, I know who she is. She started laying the walkway that was in front of the steps. And so she, we started laying it and it was laid like a chimney, you know, from, from bricks picked up here and there. But he had a competition with, with one of the neighbors who was white. His name was Jehu Brightham. And so he would always tell Mr. J. Hew, well, my yard, my, my Lord looks better than yours. I'll put my yard against yours any day now. Now that he bragged about because he thought that that yard was by far the prettiest place in the community. And woohoo. I feel the same way today when I drive through there. I really do think it is the most prettiest place in the community. And one of the, and apparently one of the neighbors thinks so that does the bush on there. Now he happened to tell me just last week when he finished it, he said, ruby, that place looks like a resort. He said, after I finish you all, I had to go down the road and say I need to do something to my parents place too. So it really is. And back to Mr. Jehu. Every time Mr. Jehu would come to the house, he would back over daddy's tree and knock it down. And so my sister said, my sister Irma said because he couldn't drive or he couldn't see, once he turned around. But I know daddy liked things like that, but it was amazing. I can never remember him being upset with Mr. J. Hugh. He would say, you knock my tree down again. And he would plant it. So he would replant it. So I think he just moved it a little bit further over on the lawn out of the pathway of, of this man just backing up into his tree. He didn't plant a lot of blooming things. He liked things that were green and lush and he really liked shrubs. He really liked trees. And I remember a lot of trees that he would bring and plant. Mom was the one like the flowering things.

[32:34] CARRIE LEANNE JOHNSON BENNETT: Okay, okay. You know, it's, it's, it's, it's funny that that was. Seemed like that was what his enjoyment, what his enjoyment came from. And I say it's funny because I know how you are about the yard and about your flowers and shrubs and how Gabrielle goes out there and helps you and that's just not something I picked up. I love the way it looks, but I, I don't know how to do the work and, but I just make sure that it Gets done so that I can have the same beauty, you.

[33:09] RUBY JOHNSON: Know, it' it was also teaching us, hey, look, you guys live here, but. But it can be enjoyment here. Yeah, you don't have to go off to all these big places for enjoyment. You. There is. There is enjoyment here if you know how to enjoy. He never lived for us to do barbecues and cookouts and, you know, family gatherings and. And things, you know, there were a time at Christmas, but I'm just saying out of just a weekend, the gathering. So.

[33:45] CARRIE LEANNE JOHNSON BENNETT: So he seemed to place a lot of value in church and community. So why would you say. Or what were some of the ways that he showed his value in community and. And in church? I know you've talked a lot about how. Well, you've mentioned to me about, like, helping neighbors and different things he would do at church.

[34:10] RUBY JOHNSON: One of the things that. Where my sister shared with me some I. Some I knew I should say, I'm sorry. Some I know, but there were some that were shared with me. And so they told me of. Of a neighbor whose home had burned to the ground. And so what he had done, he went and purchased new pots and pans for her. He didn't give her old things out of the house. He actually purchased kitchenware for her. And another one shared with me.

[35:04] CARRIE LEANNE JOHNSON BENNETT: Which, which, Which Auntie?

[35:07] RUBY JOHNSON: Both of them, Wilma and Gene, Women, Irma. And they also shared me and I. That I didn't remember, but they also shared with me that this same neighbor wanted to rent land from Daddy. And Daddy said, no, no, I'm going to teach you how to farm the land. Now, when did you hear the saying, teach a man to fish?

[35:38] CARRIE LEANNE JOHNSON BENNETT: Oh, give a man a fish, you.

[35:41] RUBY JOHNSON: Eat for a day, but if you.

[35:43] CARRIE LEANNE JOHNSON BENNETT: Teach him to fish, he'll eat for a lifetime.

[35:46] RUBY JOHNSON: For a lifetime. Where did Daddy get that from? To tell this lady that. I doubt if he had heard the saying.

[35:55] CARRIE LEANNE JOHNSON BENNETT: But he knew the importance of it. So again, it just shows his foresight.

[36:02] RUBY JOHNSON: Exactly.

[36:04] CARRIE LEANNE JOHNSON BENNETT: Yeah.

[36:07] RUBY JOHNSON: He. One of the things that I know my mother, Irma, my sister Irma told me he helped pay for his mother's funeral. So I. My mom told me that he helped pay for a nephew's funeral, his sister's son. And so I asked, I said, well, Mother, where did Daddy get money from to pay for a funeral? And she said, ruby, everything your daddy touched was a successful. She said, we always had milk, milk, butter, meat, always so. And one of my sisters told me that when he was 15 and when they got married, he had a cow and a Mule. Isn't that funny? I know. My mother said, she told him, look, I'm not living in anyone's house. I'm not living with your mom, and I'm not living with my mom. Now I. When you marry me, you need to have a house to put me in. That's where we get that from. And he did. Don't you wish more females were like that today?

[37:35] CARRIE LEANNE JOHNSON BENNETT: Amen. Come on. That's right. That's a topic for another story corp.

[37:45] RUBY JOHNSON: But, but you know, and another thing my sister said, look, Irma said, I. I know he would always stop the road. He would from time to time stop the road supervisor and say, you need to fix this road. This road needs to be gravel because it has potholes. And it just ruined our vehicle. And so I was sharing that with Irma and she said, Ruby, oh, he would go dig the ditches out so the water didn't run in the potholes, cut. Cut all of the branches back. She said, I'm telling you. And she, you know what she said? He didn't have time to really smile. He was too busy doing things that needed to get done.

[38:31] CARRIE LEANNE JOHNSON BENNETT: Needed to get done. Wow. So what are some other favorite memories like, like little things that I know you mentioned the walks and stuff and. But what are some other little, little memories like that he just. Little. Maybe little sweet or nice gestures he may have done that you remember, if any.

[38:57] RUBY JOHNSON: Well, I know at one time when the crops were. Didn't do well, and I found this out later, I didn't know why he was leaving so early in the morning. And after his death, I knew he was going into Baton Rouge, but after his death, mother said why he took the extra job in Baton Rouge, and it was to bring an income because the crops hadn't done well that year. And so he would always bring us something home. And so this particular day, Cheryl and I, my youngest sister, we were waiting to see what did he bring us.

[39:37] CARRIE LEANNE JOHNSON BENNETT: And he.

[39:38] RUBY JOHNSON: He was unloading the truck and he would just keep looking at us, and I'm thinking, wow, he. Maybe he didn't bring us anything today. You know, I wonder why he didn't bring us anything today. So finally he. He would. He said, all the cookies are on the seat in the truck. So we went in and got the cookies. They were. They were just like those penny cookies, but they were good. And, and when he, when he got wood and, and he would go to the wood pile, he would. He would let us ride on the back of the truck or the, or the tailgate on the tailgate. But I did fall off one time, which is a. Another story. So I think that frightened him a little bit because there could have been a horrific accident, but. But it wasn't. I remember it very well, but. And I. I live to tell about it. But that was, you know, some of the things that we did not get to talk about with it. I just know there was a lot of times if he saw me outside and he was going from one section of the barn to the other, I would catch him staring at me. And I. I remember mentioning that to mother after he died. And she said, because he used to say, I almost killed her. I almost killed her. I'm never letting them ride on the back of the truck anymore. I'm never putting them back there anymore.

[41:08] CARRIE LEANNE JOHNSON BENNETT: Oh, yeah, I can understand that. He was just protecting his babies.

[41:15] RUBY JOHNSON: Yeah. And, you know, you talked about one of the one thing that we. We love doing. Shooting marbles, playing jacks, and we love to play hide and seek, because there was lots of places that you could hide and seek, I bet.

[41:32] CARRIE LEANNE JOHNSON BENNETT: And mom, y'all. Y'all. All y'all can sing. And I know. I know Grant. I know Grandma taught Granddaddy how to write his name. So, you know, there were literacy things there. But I know he still it that we. We talk about that often, especially with adult literacy training, that you can have literacy in some areas and illiteracy in other areas. Just because you can't read or can't read well doesn't mean that you're illiterate across the board. So where did. Where did the singing come from?

[42:08] RUBY JOHNSON: Oh, my sister Irma said his whole. His entire family could sing. Daddy sing tenor, another one other brothers. I think. No, sister ain't see us sing bass. And she said, grandma, Elvis could sing. And she said, ruby, they had their own little quartet. Now, I didn't know that because I didn't know my grandparents. I knew of them, but I know they had their own quartet now when we came along, yes, we sing. I didn't know to the depth of how much Daddy could sing. And there was this song book. It was called the Gospel Pearl. It was read much smaller than the Baptist hymnals are today. It was almost like the size of a journal. And my sister Irma said that he does that. And I guess he learned. What is it? The basic notes. What. What is it called?

[43:15] CARRIE LEANNE JOHNSON BENNETT: Like sight reading?

[43:19] RUBY JOHNSON: No, it's just the basic. The basic notes. There's a name for them.

[43:27] CARRIE LEANNE JOHNSON BENNETT: Well, I don't know. I remember Face. I know that's the face, the, the space notes, I believe. And I forgot what the line ones are, but I don't know. I don't think that's what you're talking about.

[43:38] RUBY JOHNSON: Know when you start on the piano, it's like the scale. Yes, that's right. Yes. Yes.

[43:46] CARRIE LEANNE JOHNSON BENNETT: Okay.

[43:46] RUBY JOHNSON: Knew the scale. And I think he just built on, you know, from, from that. And I didn't know this, that he actually had gone to seminary and had, There were pictures. But my sister Irma said she couldn't find him. She said, ruby, I know he went. She named other people in the community that had gone with him. And he had on a cap and gown, so.

[44:16] CARRIE LEANNE JOHNSON BENNETT: Wow. Well, maybe that's where Auntie Wilma gets it from.

[44:20] RUBY JOHNSON: I, I, I don't know. Or Ray or Junior.

[44:26] CARRIE LEANNE JOHNSON BENNETT: Yeah, well, all y'all teach, teach, teach the world really, really well. So that, that does, that explains a lot. Now, the, the heart of the matter. The day that Granddaddy was killed. What, what would you say? What was going on that day?

[44:45] RUBY JOHNSON: Just an ordinary day, you know, typical Monday, you're from church on Sunday and you get up rolling on Monday. You know, the, the dairy wash everything, get it, get it put away, Put the, so the cows can go out to pasture and be ready for milk that evening. Unfortunately for some, everybody was staying home that day, with exception, I would say I was supposed to go to school. Shirley wasn't in school at the time because we were at, still at the church school at Mount Pilgrim. Or were we? No, we were at your base. So Shirley was in school because I think she was a kindergartner first grader. So we were in, we were at Eurabates in elementary school. So it was just an ordinary, just an ordinary day. A Monday morning. Loaded the truck with cotton, got it with the bale of cotton, got it all padded down, got the tarp on it. All of those, all of those things, I guess came in the house to get maybe, I don't know, water, cup of coffee or whatever, I don't know. But that's when he saw me. And I was, I had a kid behind the refrigerator because I knew I was supposed to go to school, but I didn't go. And mother was okay with that. But he, he happened to say, why, why aren't you, Aren't going to school? I said, no, why aren't you going to school? I said, well, I don't, I don't feel well today. And he said, well, okay, and I'll see you later. And he left. He Went to the gym same way he normally goes. And I think about, I don't know, before 12:00, before noon, the truck came into the driveway and he wasn't in it. I know my first cousin Lance was driving. I do not know if his mom, my mother's sister Bessie was in. I don't recall that. I know she worked at the school, in the cafeteria at the high school. I do know that. I do know she went to Liberty, but I do not know if she was in the truck. I just can't. But I know Lanis was driving it. And on that day, it was. He brought the truck home. Mother was. I could see Mother, like, running across the field, just screaming. And Holling and all the kids were behind us. So when they got there, I don't know what Lance said. Well, Uncle Herbert had been killed. We didn't know who killed him. I, I don't know that. I, I just, I, I don't, I don't know what, what we thought. It was like the. It was like the. I guess you could say it was like the floodgates were open, the dam had broken. It was like a tsunami. When I. When I think back on it, the. As for the rest of the day, just figuring out, well, what happened, who would do something like this, why? And there were so many different stories. Everybody had a story. But late that night, as people gathered in the yard in the evening, the younger children, Bessie, Ray, Frank Jr. Myself and Shirley were in the back room of the house. And there were some neighbors in the backyard that were talking. And that's when we heard that, eh. Hearst had killed him. And I thought, why would he kill Daddy? He lives in this neighborhood. We know him, but, you know, out on the highway, but we knew him. And I'm thinking, why would he just go up and shoot Daddy? We were so used to. When you worked as an activist in the civil rights. We were used to ambushes, you know, on night roads, somebody driving you off the road or taking a shot at you. But I could not figure out why in the opening around everybody. And it was as if to say, I will show you, I will teach you, I will make an example out of you. And as a person that was a state legislature legislator, that for me spoke volumes. You know, it was. When you, when you go back to Lewis Allen, you know, he was ambushed at night opening a gate. You would have thought somebody would have cornered Daddy on the, on the dirt road to our house. Now, it could have been because they know that he was going to defend himself. And he would have now he was little. But you did not. He did not back down. He wasn't afraid. He didn't. He. He. He wasn't a fearful person. And I guess he felt, hey, I can't be fearful because if I am, I would never get anything done. So maybe they thought it would be a fight. But for him, my understanding he got to the gym, got out of his vehicle, got out of the truck. Guess as they put the. Were taking the truck on the scales and eh. Stepped out and pulled the gun out and he, they. From my understanding, he put his hands up and said let's. Let's talk about this. And for them to have said daddy had a tire iron just forever baffled me because at his funeral you could count the bullet holes in his head. So. But here we are.

[51:34] CARRIE LEANNE JOHNSON BENNETT: Now. You know, I've been to. To different seminar that Plato that Plato did and I, I'm. I'm sorry, I didn't even mean to bring that up. But I know you have said when you've talked about this before you, You've ended at different times. This is, this didn't always happen. I mean this didn't happen every single time that I've heard you speak about granddaddy's death. But one of the times I remember you mentioning something about it was heard that his name was on the top of a list, you know, because of the, because of the work he was doing with Bob Moses.

[52:21] RUBY JOHNSON: Well, we heard that. I believe one of the white friends happened to say that when the Klansmen met out on the Gillsburg Road, straws were drawn. The person that drew the straws, that drew the straw was actually Ray Hughes, a good friend of Daddy's. And he just blatantly said I'm not doing it. I won't do it. And so eh. Was bold. You know, he really was. He was this. Who. Who can I. He. He was like the, the bad bully, you know, look at me. Untouchable. And so they said, he said I'll do it. I'll take it.

[53:27] CARRIE LEANNE JOHNSON BENNETT: And the oddity of that, what would you say was the. Besides the fact that he was a, you know, a legislator, a state legislator. What. What's what. What else was the oddity of that? Because didn't he live in you all's community? Because I've heard you say, you know, we had to pass this man's house after daddy was killed. And how. You know how that beyond difficult that was, I'm sure. But.

[54:00] RUBY JOHNSON: Well, we didn't let me. He lived out on the greens on the Gillsburg Road, when you pass our church, when you pass Mount Pilgrim, his house was right down the road from Mount Pilgrim. As a matter of fact, if you turn left, you went into his driveway. If you turn right, you went into the step toes.

[54:24] CARRIE LEANNE JOHNSON BENNETT: Got it? Okay.

[54:25] RUBY JOHNSON: Okay. When I say he lived in the community because he would drive through the loop.

[54:33] CARRIE LEANNE JOHNSON BENNETT: Got it.

[54:33] RUBY JOHNSON: Where we lived, it was only blacks through the loop. That's that encompass Gillsburg Road.

[54:42] CARRIE LEANNE JOHNSON BENNETT: Okay.

[54:43] RUBY JOHNSON: And it. You could go and come in at either end. And it was only blacks that lived in there. Now, he owned land through the loop. And at some time, I think my brother Frank said we used to walk through the property down to Grandpa's.

[55:06] CARRIE LEANNE JOHNSON BENNETT: Okay.

[55:07] RUBY JOHNSON: After Daddy was killed, we never. And the one two times that I remember walking with them to Grandpa's, we never walked through that way again. We would just go completely around another way.

[55:24] CARRIE LEANNE JOHNSON BENNETT: Well, that. I'm sure that. Well, that's one of probably many ways that Granddaddy's death impacted you all. But at that time, there were nine living children. I know Auntie Wilma was married. Auntie Jean was college, I believe, and Uncle Roy was a high school senior. And then everyone on down was still at home. Auntie Bessie, Uncle Ray, Uncle Frank, Uncle Herbert, you, Auntie Shirley. So. And Grandma was, I think. I think, what, in her early 40s or so?

[55:57] RUBY JOHNSON: Yes, I would say yes. Mid-40s? Yes.

[56:00] CARRIE LEANNE JOHNSON BENNETT: Okay. So what. What was life like after that? Besides just, you know, avoiding something that was second nature to cut through a pasture as a shortcut. But it's like, no, you know, a lost family.

[56:17] RUBY JOHNSON: Just. I don't even know any. Just a total loss. If. If you can imagine having a bucket full of water in a desert and having its field or the bottom come out. That's what it felt like. That's what it has always felt like, even to this day. There are. Sometimes we can get together and talk about the fun things Daddy did. But to have lost him in that manner because we didn't have anyone else, it was like no one came to our rescue. No one came to give advice. No one came to help. No one said, I will come and help you all get your crops in. And our neighbor, who you've heard me say, katie Turns, who we stayed with a lot, and we called her Cousin Darcy. She and mom was good friends. She was a lot older than Mother, but Mother respected her and likewise. And. And Mother looked up to her like a daughter.

[57:50] CARRIE LEANNE JOHNSON BENNETT: You mean like a mother.

[57:51] RUBY JOHNSON: I mind like a mom. And she treated Mother Like a daughter. Her husband, we called him Conduct. I think his name was Oliver. I can remember the brother's name, George. But anyway, she sent some of her family members. My sister said. My sister Irma said she sent some of her families down to help bring in the crops. But no one else helped, not a single solitary. So Roy stayed and helped broaden the crops. But after probably about a year, he relocated to Louisiana. I don't know if that was with mother's encouragement or his desire to just get out of liberty, get out of Amet county because of Daddy's death. Maybe he didn't see a future there. Irma left school and came back and stayed for a year. I mean, I'm sorry, it was about two years to help us in the house. And she did say to me, she said, after those two years, she said, ruby, I had lost the will for school. And I said, well, I can understand that. And these were things that we shared as adults. I said, because that's what happened when there's such tragedy, adversity, in search of a family that really did not have a leader. Daddy was the leader and that he was gone. All mother knew how to do was, I have to go to the field, get these crops in, hold on to this property, raise these kids and do this, do the dairy. Because mother was truly a homemaker. Mother would tell you, she said, I didn't have to worry about telling Herbert to do anything. All I needed to do was cook, clean, take care of you all. She said, I didn't have to tell him this, needed to get done this. He knew that. So he did those things. So she, she knew her respective place, he knew his and he followed his. So having said that, and I told her, I said that was. I think that that was one of the things that always bothered me because she truly was an excellent student.

[01:00:48] CARRIE LEANNE JOHNSON BENNETT: You talking about Auntie Jean?

[01:00:50] RUBY JOHNSON: Yes, and I think she was majoring in either early childhood or elementary education. But there was no one there to say, hey, you know what? Go back to school, Prince, help her to go back to school. Even when she relocated to Louisiana to show her the importance of going back to school, the rest of us were too young. We didn't know that Wilma was married with two children, you know, trying to do. And here was Roy really trying to make his own life and his own way in the world. So who. There just wasn't anybody. I remember telling her when I saw my first $100 bill, it was Daddy giving it to Jean while she was in school. And she said, ruby, I bought my books and paid for my books, and I was able to sell my books afterwards. So, you know, it was things. It was things like that where you see failures, incompleteness, no direction except for to try and be the best individual you could be. That's it.

[01:02:25] CARRIE LEANNE JOHNSON BENNETT: Wow. Well, I. I just one other thing. It would tick me off that people in the community didn't help, especially knowing how granddaddy went out of his way to help them. Did that, did that cause any severance? No. Or oddity. Okay, that's fair enough, I guess, with the times. Maybe there was a. An understanding of the risk. Maybe that would have been.

[01:03:06] RUBY JOHNSON: They were afraid, I think. I think everybody saw what Daddy had and where Daddy was going. And it was like if I helped them, my life could be in danger.

[01:03:19] CARRIE LEANNE JOHNSON BENNETT: Yeah.

[01:03:22] RUBY JOHNSON: He wasn't supposed to have anything, and if he had anything, he was supposed to stay within this box. He wasn't supposed to go outside the box.

[01:03:35] CARRIE LEANNE JOHNSON BENNETT: I understand that. Well.

[01:03:41] RUBY JOHNSON: Sad, huh?

[01:03:43] CARRIE LEANNE JOHNSON BENNETT: It is. I mean, you know, it, it's. I. I've heard these things many times, but what you hear as a. As a child, what you hear when you hear it again as at another point in life, when you hear it again as an adult, when you hear it again as a wife, when you. It's. It. The. How it. How you process it is different because you can start to wrap your mind around why something happens to my husband. You know what I'm saying? So it's. It's different. Yeah, it's different. Hearing it now at this point in my life, I'll say that.

[01:04:29] RUBY JOHNSON: That is just one. I don't know. There. There's been a lot to happen to me. A lot of. I think I remember WMA said. And she said this a long time ago. She said, when she said, when daddy died, she said, ruby, it was like I went into a deep, dark, black hole. And she said she wondered how was she going to come out of that hole. And she said she remember hearing the Holy Spirit say to her, okay, now, now, what you gonna do? And she said that left her no other recourse but to depend on the Lord if she was going to survive. Now, you asked about people in the community. I could understand that we were not taught to hate and dislike people even. Eh. I mean, I did him and every other white person that walked the face of God's green earth. I remember being at the. The memorial in Montgomery in 89.

[01:06:48] CARRIE LEANNE JOHNSON BENNETT: Yeah.

[01:06:49] RUBY JOHNSON: Yes, 1989. And I think it was Alabama University had a panel of speakers. I Remember that I was one and Mary Lee Evers was one. There were some others. But I remember her because she spoke before me and she said that she had hated for so long that no one even cared that she hated. And ultimately it was just destroying her. And that's the truth. I could, that resonated with me, but not enough to change me. It really didn't. I have shared with you I had white friends that had done a lot for me, but the race as a whole, I couldn't see anything but Daddy. I could treat them nice, but at the end of the day, you took the most precious thing that we had. And I just could not understand how someone could just go up and just pull a gun out and just shoot someone and say a self defense. Especially when there's a wife and, and seven children at home.

[01:08:36] CARRIE LEANNE JOHNSON BENNETT: Yeah, I can understand that. And I, and, and you know, I, when I said I would be, you know, ticked off if the people in the community didn't help, I did that to kind of, you know, bring, you know, bring you to that point of acceptance explaining, you know, how there was so much risk you, you couldn't, you know, I mean, you hate to say it like that. I mean, there's always a choice, you know, like you always say, you always have a choice. But that was, that would have been sacrificial choice. And at this, at that time, people would, People were trying to make sure that their own lives, that their own families did not come into that kind of jeopardy. And I can imagine, if you will, that that puts that, that put you all in a position that although you would have appreciated the help, you understood why help didn't. Why the help didn't come, so to speak. Yes, yes, yes, exactly. That's right.

[01:09:44] RUBY JOHNSON: Because even that my daddy had tremendous white friends. He really did. I mean, he honestly did. He did. But the cloud that came over me and lasted was why didn't someone help him? Why didn't someone say something? Why didn't someone, someone try to help Mother? I don't, I don't know. But anyway, move along.

[01:10:32] CARRIE LEANNE JOHNSON BENNETT: Well, I know for me you're actually supposed to shift. I was looking for a place to shift.

[01:10:45] RUBY JOHNSON: I know, and you talk about. One of the questions is I would like for him to be remembered as just a, you know, as a really, a kind person who really loved his family, who wanted the best for his family and worked very hard in that short period of time to see that they had the best within that time to try and give them the best that he could as such a time when there was little to be had. But for us, it was. It was so much. It was a sense of pride because everyone in the community owned their land. All the families. All the families had children that were. That you were equal to in age. And so it was just a sense of purpose, a sense of belonging. I would like for him to be remembered as how he really loved the Lord. He loved his church. He liked doing things for the church. He liked doing things for his community. That he really had a lot of character and integrity about him. I'm okay with his being an activist man. Still Sometimes scratch my back and say, why, but those are the things that I would like for him to be remembered. Here was this young black male who really accomplished a lot in such a short time. Not given a lot, but still blessed with a lot.

[01:13:31] CARRIE LEANNE JOHNSON BENNETT: And.

[01:13:33] RUBY JOHNSON: So I guess it's my turn. We're gonna switch gears here and give me. Give me a little break. I think I need it. I need to. I need to. I really do need to flip the switch.

[01:13:54] CARRIE LEANNE JOHNSON BENNETT: Yes.

[01:13:55] RUBY JOHNSON: So I'm gonna flip it and ask you a couple of questions here.

[01:13:59] CARRIE LEANNE JOHNSON BENNETT: That's fine.

[01:14:02] RUBY JOHNSON: Can you recall when I began to share with you things about daddy's life?

[01:14:08] CARRIE LEANNE JOHNSON BENNETT: Yeah, I mean, I remember distinctly. You know, my memory is like an elephant. The first thing I would say at really small was just, you know, having family pictures in the house. And, you know, you ask, who is this? Who is that? Who is this? Who is that? And we only had that one picture of grandma and grandpa. Lots of pictures of grandma, but just the one picture of the two of them. And, you know, you're little and you understand that that's granddaddy and that's grandma, but, you know, you. You can't wrap your mind around the other stuff. And I don't even think you just. You tried to tell me, and of course, I wouldn't have known to ask at that young. But then as time went on, I'd remember hearing occasionally things like NAACP assassinated. Still didn't really fully understand and could never remember back then what the acronym NAACP stand for. I can never get it right. But around. I would say about second grade, when they start teaching you a little bit about history, and. And it wasn't that I. That you all didn't do that in the house because truly, school was an extension of home. And for. For me, anyway, or for me and Carlos, but. But hearing about Martin Luther King Jr. And beginning to understand more about him, it was like, oh, so what happened to him? That's what that big word assassinated means. And I would say at about 10, when, when we went to the memorial, I would say that was when I really began to wrap my mind around the things that you would say. And I, and I have to say too, it wasn't the sit down conversations. It certainly wasn't anything like what we're doing now or the conversations that we've had since being an adult. It was like I was learning from when you had to go for. From when learning from when you spoke about Granddaddy at different events. Does that make sense?

[01:16:33] RUBY JOHNSON: Yes.

[01:16:34] CARRIE LEANNE JOHNSON BENNETT: Yeah. It was more like that because it wasn't. So I don't, I wouldn't say you shied away from it, but it just wasn't something that you just talked about or shared memories or whatever. So I really learned because I was with you all the time and I would hear things and because my memory is like it is, I would just catalog it and, and by that time, that's when it really, that's when it really, really like the light bulb went off. And I would say from about 9 or 10 years old on up. So when you would give those, say for instance, when, what's his name, Phil Robinson, the director, when he did Freedom Song and remember, I think it was like maybe 91 or something like that. And he, he, they had to set up, I think that was on Steptoes Farm.

[01:17:30] RUBY JOHNSON: Well, even before that, when we would go down south and do like some of the SNCC meetings that were being.

[01:17:37] CARRIE LEANNE JOHNSON BENNETT: That's what I'm talking about.

[01:17:39] RUBY JOHNSON: But a lot of those things that people wanted, they wanted Daddy to just, they wanted only to hear the Actives is part of who.

[01:17:48] CARRIE LEANNE JOHNSON BENNETT: Right? That's, that's where I'm going. I'm saying like. But I had to, I guess you could say, take what I could get. And for some odd reason, I mean, I won't say it's a, some odd reason. I felt that it wasn't okay to ask you certain things because I didn't want to make you sad. So even though you talked about, I mean when you went to those events, it was from the activist perspective. That was still what I held onto. But unintentionally, and I won't say unintentionally, naturally there would be things that would come out about who he was as a person because of the, because of the teachings in the home and the direction in the home. So it wasn't like you sat down and said, daddy was like this, not like you're doing now. It Wasn't like that, but it showed. It came out indirectly. So I. I guess you could say I learned twofold, but without an actual conversation.

[01:18:55] RUBY JOHNSON: Okay, well, having said that, and I know we. We are trying to get through this because it's 707 my time. Okay. How do you see daddy's life story as having an effect on your upbringing or your rearing?

[01:19:16] CARRIE LEANNE JOHNSON BENNETT: Well, you know, like. Like, I guess I kind of started with that. I mean, started getting into that. No, I mean, that's fine. I'm just saying it kind of. Yeah, okay. Neatness, you know, taking. Taking care of what's been given to me. And not just tangible or material items, but even gifts that you have, talents that you have abilities, you know, taking care of them, not. Not taking those things for granted and being idol, like, oh, yeah, I can do that, but not gonna do anything with it. It was, you know, being taught to utilize those things to the best of your ability to. And to, you know, to help others with them. You know, you and I, as I learned more about granddaddy as a person, everything. Every move you made began to make so much sense.

[01:20:19] RUBY JOHNSON: It was like my. Like, my telling you to don't take being a straight A student for granted that you get.

[01:20:25] CARRIE LEANNE JOHNSON BENNETT: Just like that.

[01:20:26] RUBY JOHNSON: Okay, we won't go any further than that.

[01:20:28] CARRIE LEANNE JOHNSON BENNETT: Yes, all of those things, you know, because sometimes we only see our parents as roles, and you have to begin to see your parents as people because they're people. And when you do that, you understand why they move the way they move. And I don't mean body movement. I mean the decisions they make, the way they handle situations, all of that. And for me, it was like. Okay, like how you said with the. With the car door. Oh, this Just the car door. Well, I had my. Oh, it's just. I had that, too. But I can just. Like, how you saw. Well, because you keep slamming it, you can. Sometimes it'll go off the track. You know how the doors sometimes start to hang a little bit and it doesn't line right up when you keep.

[01:21:27] RUBY JOHNSON: Just like, Carlos got mines off the track here.

[01:21:30] CARRIE LEANNE JOHNSON BENNETT: Yes, yes. So you. You say the. Oh, it's jester. But then when. When I see the putting things back where they belong. Well, it don't. It's only gonna make it easier for me, you know? And, I mean, not putting things back where they belong, but trying to put things. Having a sense of order. Put it like that. Yes.

[01:21:49] RUBY JOHNSON: And. And you know what, Kir? I'm sorry. You know what else? I think? We think that when we are blessed with gifts, all because they are gifts. Like, like, like it's tangible. I'm gonna have it forever. It's not going anywhere. But they will. If you don't take care of it, it's gonna be. It's the same thing about gifts that are talents.

[01:22:17] CARRIE LEANNE JOHNSON BENNETT: That's right.

[01:22:18] RUBY JOHNSON: Okay.

[01:22:19] CARRIE LEANNE JOHNSON BENNETT: That's right. That's right. And that's, that's. I would say that definitely, that definitely impacted my upbringing, you know, because it shaped how I conducted myself outside of the home, Whether it was at church, in a neighborhood school, you know, it impacted that.

[01:22:40] RUBY JOHNSON: Yeah, well, this, this, this one here, I'm going to serve a disclaimer. So. Because I struggle with talking about dead is life in certain settings. And perhaps it wasn't because, or it was because I'd fallen short compared to everything that he had accomplished or his expectations of me. I didn't meet him. I wonder what he would say. I often wonder what would he think about the things that I've achieved or tried to do in my life. So for me, in doing this, recording this audio, you know, I hope that if my family may be able to hear the audio, that it will awaken in us and bring us back to our heritage. And not just in name, but to work and do deeds, respect and a commitment to each other. So having said that, why is it so important for you to share more of daddy's life story and especially as a mother and an educator?

[01:24:21] CARRIE LEANNE JOHNSON BENNETT: Well, I mean, that's really easy. Really easy to answer. You know, I'm going to kind of go back a little bit. I would say it's important because, like. And I'll go back to that elementary story about when I made the connection, I guess you could say, or the semblance between the song heroes and the unsung heroes, one specifically, being my grandfather, it became important to me because for one, I feel like many times we think that the people we see out front, that they're the only ones who do things, you know, it's just like. It's just like the. In the military or whatever, you always have the foot soldiers, you know, And I felt like I wanted people to know, not because I wanted, like, them to be like, oh my gosh, guess what she's related to. It wasn't that. It was just I wanted them to know that look there. There were so many granddaddy being one of them behind what that. What you see in the books, in the big books or the, or the black and white photos or the old recordings and things like that, like, there were every day just the common people, neighbors or whatever that were making these sacrifices as well. And I wanted them. I wanted people to know that even as a. I felt that that was important. I felt that it was important to show for people to make connections. Say, for instance, 11th grade civics. You used to take civics in 11th grade. I remember my civics teacher, Ms. Gonzalez, and when we got to talking about laws and as it related to voting, you know, I could remember just feeling something stirring inside of me, you know, like. And I. And I. And I said, I'm gonna tell her about this video we have at home that shows when people would go to the polling places and how they had. Would make them not people. When black people would go to register and they would show the bar of soap and tell them, guess how many bubbles in his bar of soap? Or how many jelly beans. Yeah, the jelly beans in a jar. Because for me, I was like, okay, we're talking about this, but we're glossing it over. And I felt like it was my job to paint a wider picture because I'm like, this is real. And, you know, sometimes even with my. Okay, when it comes to us, that's only one generation difference. But my peers, even with them coming from or having parents within the same age range as you and dad, it just didn't seem real to them. And I wanted it to seem real. I'm not talking about to have to feel sad about it, but I wanted them to understand that this is not some far off thing, that this is more recent and more close to where we were and even where we are now, but that, you know, so I, I felt it was an obligation and in. And in even. And I remember you let me bring that tape and you said, carrie, don't lose my tape. So here I go telling my teacher, Ms. Gonzalez, I want to put the tape in myself. I want to take the tape out. It's going in my backpack. And I remember she did ask me, can I show it to my next class? They just won't get with it what we're getting, because it's not. It has to come back home. And she was astounded because that's that. That tape that has you, Grandma.

[01:28:27] RUBY JOHNSON: And.

[01:28:27] CARRIE LEANNE JOHNSON BENNETT: Auntie Bessie and it shows you guys, but you all didn't talk. And I. She let me explain to the class. And that was actually one of the first times that I showed the. The literacy test, the Mississippi State literacy test. And I mean, this was like 1997, and I. And I'm Going, I. I'm getting to. You know, I'm getting to the point I want to. I'm trying to cover both, you know, both of both things that you shared. But by the time college and adulthood came around, it was. It was just natural. I mean, it was just like, we're. We're gonna have this conversation, and we need to understand that these tensions, racial tensions and things of that nature, they're not that far removed. We're not all that far away from it. And I feel that not only did I feel obligated to do it, I would say I felt prompted to do it because I saw you do it, even though it may have been hard, even though you may not have always wanted to, but you have to think. And I mentioned this earlier, most of what I learned was because I saw you speaking at different events, or, like you said, the SNCC meetings. And I felt it was my job for my generation to do the same when the opportunity presented itself, not to force it. But if there was a genuine, natural, open opportunity, I did not, and I do not shy away. As a mother, I want to instill, and I do instill, and I try to instill all of those same values. And Gabrielle, prime example. She understands so well when she reads. She is becoming quite the writer. So I'm glad about that. Yay. But sometimes she will write, like, one or two sentences, and I'm like, I know you. I know that you can write more than that. And plus, the directions require you to. And I said, gabrielle, you don't ever perform below what you're capable. Now, if I. I know that that's really all you can do, then so be it. But those are the same things that were instilled in me. Those were the same things that were instilled in you. So I see when I look at how I've turned out, and I think I've turned out pretty well. I'm not saying that I'm all that I should be. I still have lots of growing to do. But I'm grateful for where I am. I know what got me there. And I feel like this. What is it? If it's good for the goose is good for the gander. Isn't that the expression? It is. And so it's important.

[01:31:26] RUBY JOHNSON: Just. You have to make some kind of. You do have to make the changes for the times.

[01:31:34] CARRIE LEANNE JOHNSON BENNETT: Yes, yes, exactly. Exactly. You know, and of course, also, you know, because of having relocated to Louisiana because of marriage, which I never would have thought I'd be living down here, but Being only an hour and a half away from the home place. You know, I enjoy taking her there. I enjoy meeting you out there, or when you come and you stay with us and we go out there. I love for her to know the history. She's very proud of it. And taking her to the gin and allowing her to see the historical marker. So she. She is beginning to have that understanding. And I'm hoping that she will pick up the torch.

[01:32:15] RUBY JOHNSON: Well, I know I enjoy those things. So having said all of that, we'll try to move on into the last part for the sake of time. But I do know one of the things I enjoyed was when I believe the high school students, after seeing the film or whatever else that they were told.

[01:32:41] CARRIE LEANNE JOHNSON BENNETT: Yeah, I was going into that about.

[01:32:42] RUBY JOHNSON: The educators, that they wanted to come to the home place. I mean, to me, to be. For them to have been that young. I don't see that. To have been that young and just had the desire and said, hey, you know what you told me about this person, but you said he has this place down the way, down the road, and that's a barn on there that he built. And all of these things I want to see that I want to walk on this ground. And sometimes those are things that I treasure for me, because a lot of times you don't even see that within.