Samuel Voth Schrag and Joe Tito

[00:04] SAMUEL VOTH SCHRAG: I'm Samuel Voth Schrag I'm 39 years old. Today is Friday, October 8th, 2021. My partner's name is Joe. I'm in Dallas, Texas. He's somewhere else. And we are one small step conversation partners.

[00:27] JOE TITO: I'm Joe. I'm 59 years old. Joe Tito. Today is Friday, October 8th. I live in central Florida. Today I'm coming to you from western Pennsylvania, where it's very nice and mild. My partner's name is Samuel, and we are one small step conversation partners.

[00:54] SAMUEL VOTH SCHRAG: I wanted to do this interview because I love conversations across difference. I have a friend who is quite conservative who lives across the street from me, and we get together every Friday and play chess and drink bourbon, and politics often comes up and they're just a delight. And so when my denomination, I'm a Mennonite pastor, and my conference said, hey, this is a program that we'd encourage everybody to do. I said, well, I'll do that, and signed up. How about you, Joe?

[01:30] JOE TITO: Very similar. Samuel. I had a friend who I would have those types of conversations with, and we were very close and sometimes would even get spirited, but was always in good fun. And we just enjoyed each other's differences and respected each other's opinions. And he passed away a year ago or so, and I kind of missed that. And I think the other part of it is I'm a little bit fearful because I don't think we can have those conversations in this country as like, we used to like the, the conversation that you're having with your neighbor. That's rare in this day and age. I don't think it was rare when, you know, when I was in my late teens or twenties. I don't think it was that rare. And there would always be an air of respect to it. And I think we've lost that. And I think we desperately need each other and we don't need to be, we don't need to agree, but, boy, we need each other and we need to be talking. And that's really. And I think One Small Step is probably the best name that you could have given this program because that's what I feel like I'm doing today is just taking a tiny step with you, Samuel. And that's why I responded to the call.

[02:57] SAMUEL VOTH SCHRAG: Amen. All right, well, I will read your bio. Joe. Originally from a small town in western Pennsylvania, I've been living in central Florida for many years. I met my wife here and we raised our sons here. Son one is an electrical engineer. Son two is a Paramedic returning to school for nursing. We couldn't be more proud of both. My wife and I enjoy biking and running and outdoor activities. Like many, I am concerned about the tensions that have built among us. I fear we are at a tipping point and that we can no longer just agree to disagree. I'm looking for answers.

[03:37] JOE TITO: I'm the pastor of Peace Mennonite Church in Dallas, Texas. I've been a part of the Mennonite church my whole life. Growing up at Lorain Avenue Mennonite in Wichita, Kansas, Going to Bethel College and the Antabaptist Mennonite Biblical Seminary and serving as pastor at St. Louis Mennonite Fellowship. I'm married and have two sons, 7 and 5.

[04:02] SAMUEL VOTH SCHRAG: One of them is a girl, actually.

[04:05] JOE TITO: Oh, I'm sorry.

[04:07] SAMUEL VOTH SCHRAG: Jonah and Hannah and I. It's interesting. I filled out this bio before Jonah turned eight. So he's eight now.

[04:15] JOE TITO: Very good.

[04:17] SAMUEL VOTH SCHRAG: Well, let's see. I am curious from your bio, Joe, where like, biking and running and outdoor activities are you? How far do you run? Where do you go? What are your. I'm curious what your.

[04:32] JOE TITO: Your.

[04:32] SAMUEL VOTH SCHRAG: I do a little about myself.

[04:34] JOE TITO: Okay. Well, let's see. We just. My wife and I just did a. We were out in Fargo, North Dakota for the marathon out there and I did the half. My wife did the full. My plan was how I was supposed to do the full with her. I had a couple silly medical issues this summer that I missed about three or four weeks of training. So I went down to the half marathon. But I did. It was a personal record for me. Way to go. Yeah, I was very excited about that. Was very excited about that. And we like to bike a lot. We've done a couple triathlons. I did an Ironman half Ironman a couple years ago and plan to do another one of those. And we just, we just enjoy that stuff. And one of the reasons I'm here in Western Pennsylvania is we recently bought this house here a couple months ago and we're going to spend our summers up here where we can enjoy that. It's.

[05:33] SAMUEL VOTH SCHRAG: It's hot in Florida.

[05:34] JOE TITO: Yeah, it's. It's a little bit hot. It's hot where you are as well. And it's, you know, you have to, if you want to run, you have to get up at 5 o'clock in the morning and you know, it's just here we feel like we could, we'll be able to enjoy the summers a little more. And so I'd like to hear more about your kids. It's a Interesting separation in age. That's the separation in age between our kids. And I think it was a really good. My sisters were a year apart, and I think that was too close. I think that two year, two and a half year gap is just a really good. A really good buffer for them. So I'd like to hear more about them.

[06:16] SAMUEL VOTH SCHRAG: Yeah. And you can tell from my bio that my original prompt was for somebody else who is in my tradition. So ending up with somebody who doesn't know anything about Mennonites is kind of fun. Yeah. But. Yeah. So Hannah and Jonah. Jonah and Hannah. Jonah's the older, so he's in third grade. And really he is my outgoing son. He just loves everybody he's ever met, and he's loving third grade. And he's just in that really blowing up with reading stage. And so that's such a fun stage to start introducing him to the books that I loved when I was a kid. And it's really neat. Hannah is my daughter. She's five. She's just started kindergarten. That was, you know, it's really going well. She likes kindergarten. But to sort of. The difference between her and Jonah is she every morning for the first three weeks said, I hate kindergarten and I don't want to go. And every afternoon on the way home, she told all the wonderful stories of the things she did. But people are just a little more scary for her and strangers are a little more scary. And so she would prefer to just stay home and hang out. And of course, with the pandemic, they were home for the spring. I mean, Jonah was home from first grade in the spring, and then for the first several months of first grade as well, and spent half of first grade wearing a mask and half of second grade wearing a mask. And so that was a big transition for her because she spent a whole lot more time with her parents at home than Jonah did. He did a lot more preschool than she did. I mean, it was interesting to see how that shapes things, that sense of being around all the time. So they are delights. And, yeah, I can. I'm very proud of them and happy to watch them grow up. And, yeah, with you having two grown sons, you have a sense of how that journey continues. And I was, yeah, it sounds like they're out in the world and doing their own thing, but don't have families of their own yet. It sounds like.

[08:32] JOE TITO: Correct. One of them has come back to us. He's going. The paramedic is going back for nursing school, which is fine as long as he's in school. We have no problem with, you know, with him coming back.

[08:41] SAMUEL VOTH SCHRAG: Yep.

[08:42] JOE TITO: You know, it's kind of nice having a paramedic around, you know, in case. In case something happens. But they are our. I would say that our two probably are mirroring your two in that the older one was more outgoing, very gregarious and so forth, and the younger one was the one that never wanted to go to school and never wanted to, you know, never wanted to. He was the one, you know, he. He's the one that. That, you know, made me lose the hair, so. But he just. It was an amazing thing. He. We were. We were. We always had our concerns about him. And in high school, he was. He got into the band and he was offered a leadership position by the band director. And it just turned the kid around. 180 degrees. It just really did. He took to it and it just changed him. And I am friends with that band director. He's been out of high school a number of years, and I still thank him whenever I talk to him. Mike, thank you so much for the opportunity, because it was just that opportunity. He got that. That just, you know, we could see that he was at a turning point in life and that it was going to go one way or the other. And we were just very happy that he. That he went the right route, found a space. Yes, he did.

[10:16] SAMUEL VOTH SCHRAG: I. So the question three is, who has been the most influential person in your life and what did they teach you? I found that a very. It's a fascinating kind of question, but the obvious answer is my wife, Rachel, who I have. We started dating when I was in high school, when we were both in high school. So we're high school sweethearts and dated all through college and got married after I graduated. She's a couple years younger, and so she's been part of my life for more than 20 years now, more than half my life. And she. I mean, certainly we grew up together in some really profound ways, and it's, you know, it's out of fashion these days to bury your high school sweetheart. That's a very strange thing to do. Most of my peers didn't partner till they were 30, but. But it's been really wonderful to have somebody to grow up with and to learn to be an adult with and to then form a family with. And so she has taught me a lot about all sorts of things. You know, what does it mean to be a man and to be in a relationship and to be an adult and to be a parent and. Because when you're, you know, peers teach you an awful lot. When you make mistakes together and explore the world together and explore what it means to be a. You know, she's. How to be a pastor. And. Yeah, anyway, that's. That's the. That may not be the exact direction the prompt is supposed to take us. I mean, I have older people who've been mentors, but she's the one that came to mind. How about you, Joe? Who's been the most influential person in your life?

[12:04] JOE TITO: I would say probably the most influential person in my life was probably my father. And I would say the thing that I learned from him, that has been probably the best lesson that I got from him was ever since he was. Ever since I was little, he would always say, joey, always look for the. For the good in people. And he would always tell me that. He said, I really like the problem cases. And I'd say, what do you mean, dad? He said, you know, the people that nobody else likes. He said, you got to really work. And he said, you know, I've only encountered about two people in my life that I felt were just. I couldn't find anything good in them. And, you know, and I thought, wow, of all the people he's met in his life because he was in business and had a lot of contacts, he's only met two that he thinks were, you know, at their core, not good people. And I always took that to heart. And I have found I've actually had some of the closest friendships. And, you know, one guy comes to mind that I haven't spoken with him in a number of years, but I used to work with him and nobody liked this guy. He was like the typical New Yorker guy. He came off very rash and just caustic and so forth. And I made it a project. His name was Ray. And I said to my wife, I'm going to find a way to look for the good in Ray. And, you know, what I found was that that was just all a facade, and that was just the way he grew up in Brooklyn, and that was just the way they were. He'd give you the shirt off his back, but you didn't get that impression. Especially this was in Florida, and we were working around a lot of people from the south who are warmer and not as in your face as New Yorkers. And I found that that really was. There was a lot there to Ray, that he was a wonderful, giving, gentle person, good father to his two children. And, you know, we just. It was such a valuable friendship. And I'VE had. I've had a number of cases like that where I just haven't given up on people. There's another guy in our. We have a triathlon group in. In Seminole county, and there's another guy, and a lot of people can't stand the guy. And. Same thing. I just. I said, my wife. I'm gonna. I'm definitely gonna try to befriend Brian. And, you know, he and I have become pretty decent friends. And again, he'll give you the shirt off his back. He'll tell you that you should have never bought the shirt that you bought to begin with, but he'll give you the shirt off his back. You know, he'll tell you why you made the mistake of buying the shirt you bought. But, you know, at his core, he's a good person and, you know, I respect him. So I would say that's. I don't know if I went off the rails there, but I would say that was. That one thing that my father taught me makes him the most influential person in my life.

[15:16] SAMUEL VOTH SCHRAG: Bless your heart. Oh, man, that is. That's awesome. All right, question four. Could you briefly describe in your own words your personal political values? I am a Christian, and my personal political values are that I try and live in society in light of Jesus's invitation to love neighbor and care for the stranger. So things that. That means in kind of which I try and whenever I think about my politics, I try and think about not just in the American context, because, like, we get shaped by the Democrat Republican conflict. And I. I don't. It's not the only way that politics live out. So I have friends in Canada. It's really fun to talk about their politics and how people end up in different places there or look in South America and what politics are like there. So anyway, the things that I think about is a care for creation. Environmentalism is my highest political value. I think we have a climate change crisis and we have to fix it. So I vote for people who agree with that and are willing to fight against the fossil fuel industry. And I care about the poor. I mean, Jesus had a preferential option for the poor. So anything that I think will lead to a more just and equal sharing of the resources of the world or something that I care about, and then a bias toward peace and peace building. I think that the American commitment to healthy relationships with other countries is so important. And so whenever that's. I mean, that's something that I think, you know, free trade and free movement of people and those Sorts of things are really important to me. Yeah, those are. That's enough words, Joe. How about you?

[17:24] JOE TITO: Well, I would say, like you. I try to. I try. I think it does us a disservice to just say, well, we're Democrats or we're Republicans, because it doesn't really totally define things, especially in this day and age. I think I kind of look back at the way of our founding fathers, who did everything deeply bathed in Christ. But I think this whole idea of political spectrum in the US has been kind of maligned or something. Maybe that's the right word, between this right and left thing. And I sort of look at things towards totalitarianism as one extreme and total chaos and anarchy as the other extreme. And I try to look at things that come towards me and say, all right, is this pushing us more towards totalitarianism, or is this pushing us more towards a chaotic state of anarchy? And I think our founding Fathers tried to find a balance, and I think that's where I am on that. And, you know, I probably don't like a lot of government intervention and things. I think that true charity comes from the heart, and I think that's how we'll be judged.

[18:56] SAMUEL VOTH SCHRAG: Oh, yes.

[18:57] JOE TITO: And, you know, it's. It's. So that's kind of where. I guess if I had. If I had to put a label on myself, it's. I would say I'm probably more libertarian, not to be confused with the Libertarian Party, which is not that libertarian. And, you know, that's another word that's kind of gotten. But I would say I'm a classic liberal in the sense that our founding fathers would have used that term. Trying to adjust for the sun that's moving.

[19:36] SAMUEL VOTH SCHRAG: The beautiful weather. But then there is that.

[19:39] JOE TITO: Well, we're. Yeah, and I apologize for that. We're having some. We're having some work done in the house. I've been trying to get these guys to come out since August, and they're making a ton of noise in there. So my apologies that I'm outside.

[19:51] SAMUEL VOTH SCHRAG: Hi. We had the big snowstorm here in Dallas, and everybody's pipes burst. So there are people who are still just getting out. Laborers from February. And. Yeah. So I. Anyway, I. When they come, you gotta go with them.

[20:09] JOE TITO: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.

[20:13] SAMUEL VOTH SCHRAG: I. All right, so now we have open time to ask each other questions. Did anything catch your attention?

[20:19] JOE TITO: Yeah, I want to know more about the Mennonite Church. I don't know anything about it. Growing up here in Western Pennsylvania, I know there are Mennonite communities and it just. I'm real curious about. About the Mennonite church, so I'd love for you to tell me about that.

[20:34] SAMUEL VOTH SCHRAG: Yeah. So the Mennonites are a small Protestant denomination that come out of the radical Reformation in Europe. So Martin Luther is the Lutherans, and then the Reformation. And the Mennonites said, you didn't go far enough. They had a very strong emphasis on the separation of church and state. They said the government shouldn't be involved in people's personal religion, which got them in a lot of trouble. And also a radical peace position that Jesus said to love your enemies, and that probably means don't kill them. And so those are sort of the two distinctive things from the early Mennonites that then in the 21st century, we've had 500 years of history to kind of figure out who we are and what that means. And so it's a denomination that has kind of 100,000 people. Mennonite Church USA, my denomination in the United States. But there are a lot of different branches of Mennonites, like Baptists or lots of the Protestant denominations. There are lots of different flavors that develop. So my community continues to very much be focused on Jesus and the idea that Jesus meant what he said and he was talking to us. If you came to our church service, it'd be very familiar to anybody who's been to a Protestant church service. We sing hymns and we have a sermon, we read Scripture, and we do a sharing time where people can share their prayer concerns and pray with one another. We span the political spectrum. So I have Trump voters, and I have people who think that Biden is way too conservative and we need to be a democratic, socialist republic who come to my church. And. But my congregation tends to be on the liberal end of the spectrum that I would. I would say probably 80, 20 Biden voters in the church, but that would be unusual. The denomination as a whole is pretty mixed between the two political parties, which is kind of interesting. The pacifism thing is the thing that is certainly the most radical part of Mennonites. So We've taught for 500 years that Christians shouldn't participate in warfare and that if we just agreed not to kill one another, the world would be a better place. And, yeah, so I signed up as a conscience objector when I was in high school and registered for the draft and put a lot of paperwork together and things like that. And so, you know, the elders in the congregation all have stories of what they did during Vietnam and alternative service and things like that.

[23:24] JOE TITO: Interesting.

[23:25] SAMUEL VOTH SCHRAG: Yeah. The The Mennonites in your area, most of them would be more traditional. So there's a very conservative branch of Mennonites where people wear plain dress and have beards and bonnets. And my crew, that was like 75 years ago that they said, you know, we don't think that's really essential to being good Christ followers. But definitely there are some who still say that if you don't be not conformed with the world, and we have different ways of doing that, but that's sort of the essence of that traditional dress is they're trying to be non conformed. And it works. People do know them. Like they've developed a lot of fame for that.

[24:05] JOE TITO: Yeah. The particular community that I'm thinking about that's probably about 60 miles northwest of northeast of here is what you were describing as a traditional, you know, more like with the dress and so forth. That's why I was curious, you know, what I would experience with you today. But. So that's interesting. I didn't know, but I guess it makes sense. Like any other denomination, there's different traditions and so forth. That you follow.

[24:35] SAMUEL VOTH SCHRAG: Yep. Yeah. How about you? Did. I mean, you mentioned a kind of a faith tradition.

[24:41] JOE TITO: Yeah, I grew up Catholic, so I've been Catholic all my life. I think probably for. There was maybe about a 20 year span where I didn't go to church and just, you know, kind of fell by the wayside. And, you know, I rectified that, especially when the kids were, when the kids were growing up. But we kept that tradition going. It's interesting because my wife works in a Presbyterian church and the reason they wanted her in that position is they did not want someone from their own church community because she knows who gives what. And there was some sensitive information that they didn't want that person to be a part of the community. So she gets into some interesting conversations with their pastor, who's a great guy. I, I love the guy. He's. He's just wonderful. His name is Joe as well. And it's funny because, you know, he's a little bit like me and he's, he's a little scatterbrained. And I'm gonna try to move this. He's a little scatterbrained and a little ADD oriented. And it's, you know, whenever she has a difference with him and she'll tell me about it, I'll usually say something that's kind of supportive of what he said or, you know, and she's like, oh my God, I've got two of you now.

[26:05] SAMUEL VOTH SCHRAG: So.

[26:06] JOE TITO: But yeah, so we're. You know, we're just kind of traditional Catholic. Yeah, It's. I would say, probably the biggest thing I ever did that. That was probably. I had the experience of deepening my faith was back in 2008. I kind of felt this calling to do something uncomfortable, something that took me out of my comfort zone. So I joined the. There was a local with a couple different parishes where we. It was like a jail ministry. So we went into the local jail, and we would do sort of a. A layperson service where obviously none of us were priests, so we couldn't do communion and so forth. But we would do the readings for the next Sunday, and, you know, we would talk with the guys. And it's funny that the guy that led that group, sort of the patriarch of the group. It just made it really fun, and the guys liked coming to our service. And it seemed like once he passed away, it got too serious and too judgmental, and I. The. The guy that took his place, I felt was. Was. I don't know how I got on this tangent, because we were talking about. You were talking about faith, I guess.

[27:31] SAMUEL VOTH SCHRAG: Yeah. I was gonna say. I'm really curious.

[27:33] JOE TITO: This deepening of the. He just got too serious about it and too judgmental and almost to the point where he would be yelling at the guys and, you know, they're in jail. They know they've done wrong. I mean, it's. I didn't think that that was the right approach to that, so I kind of fell away from that. And I'm sort of looking for something else within my church to do. I need a project. I don't think I'm ever. You know, I'm not this. I wish I was sometimes, but I know some sort of evangelical Christians that just have the fire of passion and Christ in their heart. And I. Sometimes I wish I was like that. But the closest I think I get to that is when I'm learning more about the Bible and learning more about Jesus Christ and learning I have to be in projects or I'm not going anywhere on a faith day. I got to have some kind of either educational project going or something. I don't have that right now. So I'm kind of searching for something.

[28:36] SAMUEL VOTH SCHRAG: Faith without works, as they say. Yeah, that's great. What did you do? What was your work?

[28:44] JOE TITO: So I'm the. I'm the. I'm the editor for a small trade publication in the electronics industry.

[28:51] SAMUEL VOTH SCHRAG: Cool. Yeah, it is a bunch of TI People down here at the Church?

[28:55] JOE TITO: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's. It's actually for the. Believe it or not, there's a. It's a niche publication, but it's for folks that build wire harnesses that might go in anything from cars to washing machines to aircraft. You know, we always say the wire doesn't know what it's in, and processing it is pretty much the same. So if there's actually a publication, believe it or not, dedicated to the manufacture of wire harnesses, that's awesome. You'd probably be bored to death reading it, but.

[29:28] SAMUEL VOTH SCHRAG: Well, there'd be a lot I wouldn't know. I'm sure that's. That's neat. How long have you been doing that?

[29:34] JOE TITO: So I've been doing this. I started writing for them in 2009, and then I've been the editors for about four or five years now.

[29:42] SAMUEL VOTH SCHRAG: All right.

[29:45] JOE TITO: And what about you? Have you always been a pastor?

[29:47] SAMUEL VOTH SCHRAG: I have, yeah. No. I started right after school, right after college as a youth minister, and then went and finished my seminary degree and then did 10 years in St. Louis when I came to Texas. We ended up in Texas five years ago because my wife got a job as a professor. She's a professor of social work here at the University of Texas, Arlington. And so I didn't have a call, and so I was with the kids for a year and a half after we came. But then the church where we were going to, we came down and there's peace, spend the night. Church was the church in town. It's the nice thing about being part of a tiny denomination is you show up in a city of 8 million people, and there are four Spanish language Mennonite churches and one English language. And so that made it easy to decide where to go to church. But our pastor left, and they were like, well, Samuel, you did this for 10 years. Do you want to do it again? And I said, all right, I can do it again. So I'd been. You know, Jonah had gone to kindergarten, and I'd been thinking about what was the next step in my career and would kind of. I was planning to go somewhere else, but the timing just worked out the. I came back into the ministry.

[30:54] JOE TITO: That's great.

[30:54] SAMUEL VOTH SCHRAG: Yeah, it's about a. It's a half, 60% position. So I get plenty of time to do all the Mr. Dad things as well. And so it's a nice.

[31:04] JOE TITO: Did you know that you wanted to do that, like, when you were a very young man, or have you sort of known all along, or.

[31:10] SAMUEL VOTH SCHRAG: No, it was really in college. I. It was. I was almost. Yeah. I mean, as a kid, it was never on my list. But in college I got really involved with kind of the campus ministry, working with. There was a discussion group at the donut shop at 12:30 at night, and I led that. And there was a chapel that I got asked to preach all the time. And then one thing led to another, basically. And by the time I was done with college, I was like, well, I'm at least going to give it a shot. And I loved youth pastoring. It was so much fun. And it's like, well, all right. And so sort of how one little step at a time, God nudged me into it. Let's see. I loved. These are sort of not supposed to be political, but touching on politics. I loved the kind of the framing of the totalitarian to anarchy framework for your politics and looking for the healthy balance. I am always curious about ways that we can kind of complexify and throw things up. And one of the things about Mennonites is that I mentioned that we span the gamut on the political spectrum as it lays out in America. But we are traditionally very anarchist. So one of the things that ties us together is, is that that sense of anarchy. And I see in the country the ways that kind of the very far left wing and the very far right wing are often kind of anarchist together, that the burn it down comes on both sides of the spectrum. And I like. And so I was kind of curious if you had kind of other thoughts about how that dynamic works and. Yeah. How you've seen it in our world and what you. What you've thought about it.

[33:08] JOE TITO: Well, again, I think it, you know, I think that both parties in this country could be. Could be said to pull in different directions, but I kind of see the gradual slide towards more of a totalitarianism and further away from individual rights. And, you know, whether that be because of an emergency or a crisis. And I think that politicians and news organizations, and I'll include Fox News on this, but, you know, I think they're always trying to get us in crisis mode. Obviously the TV stations want to do it because it sells soap and the politicians want to do it because if we're not talking to each other, then we're solid votes for them. And I think that. I think there's a polarization going on that's really dangerous. And like I said earlier, we need each other. And I don't know if I really answered your question there, but I think I see a general slide towards totalitarianism and it Scares me.

[34:23] SAMUEL VOTH SCHRAG: Yeah, it was really. You didn't ask the question, but the response that. That picked up in me was, you know, as a preacher coming up to the election there, I, as I said, my congregation is pretty liberal. And there was definitely that anxiety of that Trump representing a totalitarian impulse on the right, that sense of, well, questioning the election, questioning democracy, saying that he wasn't going to concede, kind of those things were very frightening and to people in my congregation. And so you sort of speak of that heightened anxiety, and there was just such high anxiety. And it was interesting to sort of preach like Jesus lived under the Roman Empire. Like, he lived under the most totalitarian state that humans can invent. And he was still. And that's where the church was born. Like, we should be scared of, like, it's bad, we don't want it, but we will find ways to follow Jesus regardless of what stupid things the government does. And it was an interesting. Yeah, it was just an interesting moment to preach. So that's what that struck me, trying to say. Yeah. Like, don't respond to your fears of totalitarianism with your own totalitarianism with your own isolation from the other side.

[36:10] JOE TITO: And I think that's what has happened. And maybe that speaks to the polarization that I was speaking about, because the tv, and I don't even have a TV anymore. But the formula that I see on all these new networks is let's get one rabid individual on one side and another rabid individual. Individual on the other side and let them go at it.

[36:35] SAMUEL VOTH SCHRAG: Yep.

[36:36] JOE TITO: And then it's just. It's just such. Such a disservice to humanity to do that, because I don't think that's who we are. And, you know, my. I'm pretty sure that, you know, I can tell by some of the things that you laid out that you and I disagree on a number of things. Things. But I would bet you if we were to spend, like, the amount of time that you spend with your neighbor, and then maybe that's a good, curious question.

[37:07] SAMUEL VOTH SCHRAG: Yeah.

[37:07] JOE TITO: Okay, let me. Let me back up before I. Your neighbor that you get together and have bourbon with. You guys disagree on some things. Would you say that you agree on more things than you disagree on and you just discuss those things that you disagree on because they're kind of fun.

[37:27] SAMUEL VOTH SCHRAG: Well, we definitely agree on more things than we disagree on. But it is interesting. Yeah. To manage it. Right. Like, because, like, sometimes we'll do a whole evening on disagreements and it'll get too hot because you drink Too much, and that's a mistake. And then we'll. We'll take a month and we'll talk sports and we'll talk kids and education and, like, he's an assistant principal. So, like, we can talk education and our families and family systems and all of those things, and we'll leave politics behind. Even on politics, we agree on much more than we disagree on. Right. Like, we all love. Like, we think democracy is good and freedom of speech is good and we should care for one another and. Yeah, right. Like, so even. Even in this specific political realm. Right. Like, there's this. The. The universe of possibilities is constrained. And then we get really hot about the constrained universe of possibilities. But that's silly because, like, I think sometimes you catch this temptation of being like, well, you're a liberal. That means that you think that we should be Communist Russia. When you're a conservative, that means you think that we should be Pinochet Chili. And like, well, no, like, I'm a step or two left of Joe Biden on a number of things, but then I'd stop, and you're to the left of Trump, really? But you would move things to the right in this country in a couple of ways, and then you'd stop and it'd be fine. And I think that, like, there's this sense that, well, it would never stop. Well, yes, it would stop. Neither the right nor the left wants to destroy the country.

[39:16] JOE TITO: Right. And I think that's where I was. What I was winding up to, obviously, was that, you know, I'll bet you and I just. I'll bet you and I agree on many more things about life, about the way we raise our children, about the way we want, you know, about what we want for our children. You know, I bet you and the country, more like 90% that we would agree on. I don't know what the percentage, but I bet it's a fairly hefty percentage of the things that we agree on versus the things we disagree on. And there again, that was one of the reasons why I wanted to do the StoryCorps thing. And you mentioned. I noticed this. I can tell you're raising your children right because you said. You came back into the room and said, they've got books and legos. You didn't say, they've got video games and tv. So that was very refreshing to see a young man like yourself. Yeah. You know, that kind of stuff makes me hopeful because your kids are the ones. You know, I think that there are too many parents that are part Time, parents and non participative. And I could just tell by that one sentence they've got their books and their Lego. Like, yeah, this guy. I like this guy.

[40:30] SAMUEL VOTH SCHRAG: They get 40 minutes on an iPad a day. That's the screen time.

[40:36] JOE TITO: I wish we had done the same with ours. My wife and I weren't in agreement on that. I wish I had been a little bolder on that. Thankfully, the kids turned out okay, but definitely, I think the video games are just. Boy, if you can avoid it with.

[40:54] SAMUEL VOTH SCHRAG: Your son especially, they can go down the rabbit hole. Oh my goodness.

[40:59] JOE TITO: Telling you.

[41:00] SAMUEL VOTH SCHRAG: Yeah. I mean, my brother, I mean, he a pot in video games and he almost destroyed his life and he came out of it, but boy, it was. It was touch and go for a couple years there.

[41:12] JOE TITO: Yeah. I think our youngest son also.

[41:14] SAMUEL VOTH SCHRAG: Joe, by the way, I got a brother Joe.

[41:16] JOE TITO: Cool. I think our youngest son is a little too, little, too much into gaming. But, you know, every once in a while he recognizes that it's kind of ruined his life and he'll pull back a little bit. But even, you know, I wish it wasn't as much of a part of his life as it is. Yeah. The older one is more into board games, which I think that's kind of.

[41:38] SAMUEL VOTH SCHRAG: Cool because I would play with. I have a very extensive board game collection. I bet we would similar games.

[41:44] JOE TITO: Oh, he's, you know, I always joke with him that he's the geek of the family, you know, because when I was growing up, there was this. Well, it's still very popular. Dungeons and Dragons. Sure, they still play that. And so he has that. He plays that and he plays a lot of board games. And some of these games, the setup takes an hour and they've got all these pieces. Keep this straight.

[42:09] SAMUEL VOTH SCHRAG: Wingspan and Puerto Rico.

[42:11] JOE TITO: But it's nice because he's there with his friends and you know, they come over every Thursday night, they get together, they have their game night. And you know, I think that's. That's a wonderful thing because they're, they're in person. They're not, you know.

[42:26] SAMUEL VOTH SCHRAG: Yeah. I mean, that's your bridge. You're. I mean, we've been playing card games forever.

[42:32] JOE TITO: Yeah.

[42:35] SAMUEL VOTH SCHRAG: So we have time for one more question. What is it?

[42:39] JOE TITO: So what other. What are things you and your wife like to do for fun when you're not preaching or correcting papers or.

[42:48] SAMUEL VOTH SCHRAG: Yeah, well, we are. I've also run. You're a much more extensive runner than me, but I've done a marathon and.

[42:55] JOE TITO: I haven't done A marathon yet.

[42:56] SAMUEL VOTH SCHRAG: Oh, this was going to be your first. Oh my God.

[42:59] JOE TITO: This is going to be my first marathon. Yeah.

[43:00] SAMUEL VOTH SCHRAG: Wow. Well, I did a marathon right before Jonah was born. My wife ran around with a sign that said go Daddy, go with their big belly. And it was very fun. And so that we do a lot of that and hiking. There's beautiful hiking around Texas and up in Colorado. My brothers are. My brother and my brothers in law are in Colorado. And so we go up there and go hiking all the time. And. Yeah, let's see. I mean, I have the chess and the bourbon and the playing with the kids. And I'm a reader. Science fiction is my, my reading location. I love the, you know, speaking of getting out of our bubbles. Right. I love the imaginative question, what are other ways that humans could organize themselves? And science fiction is just really good at that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[43:55] JOE TITO: Well, my wife and I both like to read and it's. I, you know, we find it a nice escape. We're kind of into these mystery. Murder mystery.

[44:05] SAMUEL VOTH SCHRAG: Oh, sure.

[44:06] JOE TITO: But. And like I said, it's an escape.

[44:09] SAMUEL VOTH SCHRAG: I read everything Reich Stout and Agatha Christie wrote for a long time. I haven't been in them for a while, but that was my mom's favorite. Escapes.

[44:20] JOE TITO: Very nice. Let's see. Let's think of another question.

[44:29] SAMUEL VOTH SCHRAG: I was wondering if there. Yeah. If Kevin had any other. He wanted us to hit at the very end here. Was there ever a time when you felt in doubt in your political beliefs? Oh, that's a good one. So I, that's such a bifurcated thing in our country. So there. I've changed my mind on lots of things or I, I'm not fully settled, like on individual issues, like how much immigration is the right amount. Like, I lean between completely open borders and. But maybe there are some negative social side effects to that that I should be a little more skeptical of or like on local zoning is kind of an. I love local politics because it doesn't map left right in quite the same way. And one of the things that I do kind of think is really destructive is how much cities have control over individual property owners. Like, you know, I can't put an apartment complex in my backyard because the neighbors would complain and the zoning ordinance wouldn't allow it. And I wonder if I should be a little more libertarian on that and kind of say, well, no, we should let people be more in control of their own properties than we are. So those are things where I feel kind of doubts on the, like, which president I'm Going to vote for. I've like, since I've been of voting age, that has not actually been a hard question for me.

[46:03] JOE TITO: So you've always, have you always voted for the Democrats or. Not necessarily always.

[46:09] SAMUEL VOTH SCHRAG: I confessed to voting for Ralph Nader in 2000 in my first election. I regretted it as soon as the election was over and I saw the consequences of my behavior. And I have not made the same mistake since.

[46:24] JOE TITO: My friend that I mentioned earlier who passed away, was it Ralph Nader or. I think it was Jerry Brown. And this was sometime back in the 90s when he ran, when he ran for the Democratic primary. And my friend lived in a very rural county, Osceola County. It's not as rural now, but yeah, yeah, Osceola county in central Florida. And when I read the results, there was one vote for Jerry Brown in that county. And I thought, I know the guy.

[46:59] SAMUEL VOTH SCHRAG: That's awesome.

[47:00] JOE TITO: It was so funny. And I, I, I called and said, oh, you had to do it, didn't you? Had to be the one. But, but I, I think it was pretty sure it was Jerry Brown was someone, you know, he did run.

[47:11] SAMUEL VOTH SCHRAG: Yeah.

[47:12] JOE TITO: And it was, it was him. But at any rate, so I guess if I were to answer that question, I think I was most influenced. I had a couple really good teachers in high school. One guy, his name was Mr. Hall. And we could never figure out if Mr. Hall was a, you know, Democrat, Republican, left or right. Because no matter what argument you presented to him, he would very eloquently present the opposite argument and we just never could figure it out. And I would say that that was when I figured out that. I don't know if you want to use the term conservative or something, but, you know, more conservative, libertarian leaning. And I've always been that way. The only. There's been two issues that I have changed my mind on over the years and they're pretty big, pretty big issues. One is abortion. I used to think, well, you know, kind of, it doesn't really affect me. And it's, you know, I guess if you want, if a woman's right to choose and so forth. I did change my mind on that. I think that, I think that life begins at conception and I think it's a, I think it's a very, you know, that's what I believe. So I believe in the sanctity of life. And so the other one was the death penalty. I used to be pro death penalty and especially after spending the time in the jail ministry, I would say that was probably the most the most that gave me the most insight on that because, you know, a lot of these guys were not a lot different than me. They got involved with drugs. And so I tell you, it was about 95% of the guys in there had something to do with drugs. Yeah, you know, some bad decision they made while they were. They were high. Some bad decision they made when they needed a fix or something. Whatever crime they did, if you boiled it down, at its core, it was drugs. So, you know, take that away from them and you meet them in jail and you just think, this is a normal guy. This is. This could be my brother. This is. You know, so I think that shaped me. And I think the other thing is that really changed my mind on the death penalty is I don't think we should ever deny anyone their shot at redemption. If someone commits a murder and it takes them 50 years in prison to come around to ask God for forgiveness, I don't think we should rob them of one second of that life because we're talking about their eternal life. So, you know, if we put them in the electric chair, we gave them a lethal injection after, you know, what, five or six or seven years in prison. Maybe they did not have time to repent. Maybe they did not have time to find Christ's light in their heart. Maybe they didn't have time to ask for forgiveness. I don't think we can rob someone of that. Maybe they go to their final resting place, having never done that, and maybe they end up in hell. But I think that. I don't think we can rob people of one second, given them the opportunity to ask God for forgiveness.

[50:44] SAMUEL VOTH SCHRAG: Amen.

[50:45] JOE TITO: So I think those. And those are two big issues in.

[50:50] SAMUEL VOTH SCHRAG: Politics and nicely on opposite sides.

[50:54] JOE TITO: Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, but I would say I've always been fairly conservative and fairly leery of government. I think that's probably the. Probably the best way to put it.

[51:11] SAMUEL VOTH SCHRAG: Well, it's been a delight to talk with you. Thank you so much.

[51:16] JOE TITO: Thank you.

[51:16] SAMUEL VOTH SCHRAG: It was an honor.

[51:18] JOE TITO: Yes. I feel the same way now. I have a friend in Texas.

[51:21] SAMUEL VOTH SCHRAG: That's right. Feel free to look me up if the winds blow you this way.

[51:28] JOE TITO: I will do that, definitely.