Sandi Peterson and Richard Eng

[00:00] SANDY PETERSON: Hi, my name is Sandy Peterson, and I am just shy of 72 years old. Today's date is the 29 June 2023. I live in Oak Harbor, Washington, and the name of my conversation partner today is Richard. And we became connected because of one small step.

[00:22] RICHARD NG: And my name is Richard Ng, and in one month, I will be 80 years old. Today's date is June 29, 2013. I mean, 23. My conversation partner is Sandy, and I'm just meeting her just now, happily so.

[00:50] SANDY PETERSON: So, Richard, what made you want to do this interview today?

[00:54] RICHARD NG: Well, I've always been a fan of Storycorps, and I listened to it on NPR when I can. And the whole project of one small step seemed really interesting to me because my circle of friends and almost everybody I know tends to be the same political, tends to have the same political beliefs as I do. And so I thought it would be really good to have a good conversation with somebody who may not agree politically with me at all times. And, Sandy, what made you want to do this interview today?

[01:35] SANDY PETERSON: Well, the number one reason, Richard, is because I just love people and I like to learn about their experiences in their life and just that kind of personal connection thing. But secondly, because I firmly believe that when we know each other, it becomes harder to demonize someone. And so one of my friends says, when we generalize a person or a people, then we marginalize them. And when we marginalize them, it becomes really easy to demonize them. And that, to me, is why conversations like this are important to maintaining our republic. Because my friend, one of my other friends says she's a very strong Democrat and I'm a Republican. And she said, I used to not care when people said bad things about the Republicans. And now when they talk about Republicans, it hurts my heart for you. And so I thought.

[02:34] RICHARD NG: I totally agree with you, Sandy. Totally.

[02:39] SANDY PETERSON: Awesome. So, Richard, they asked us to read our partners bio out loud. May I read yours?

[02:47] RICHARD NG: You certainly can.

[02:49] SANDY PETERSON: All right. It says, I am a gay asian american man, born and raised in a small town in eastern Washington. I was a teacher in Seattle area for ten years after college. I moved to New York City in 1979 and moved back to Seattle after 37 years in New York. I have been active in the theater, musical organizations, and working with gay youth. I currently volunteer as a mentor in a school district and sing with a local choir. I have been practicing meditation and Buddhism for twelve years. So my first curiosity question is, what school district?

[03:27] RICHARD NG: Issaquah School District.

[03:28] SANDY PETERSON: Oh, that's one of the best in the state.

[03:31] RICHARD NG: Yes, I moved here to Issaquah after I moved back here from New York, and there's a school right across the street from me and somebody worked there said, you should come and be a mentor. So that's how I started. And I've been a mentor for five years now.

[03:54] SANDY PETERSON: That's awesome.

[03:57] RICHARD NG: So I can read. I can read your bio, Sandy, now.

[04:02] SANDY PETERSON: Absolutely. With permission, of course.

[04:06] RICHARD NG: Sandy says, I am a run of the mill person and lean conservative. I have been a candidate and enjoy working on campaigns. I am a civil service commissioner and a former planning commissioner and work elections. I enjoy travel, animals, kids and the ocean. My husband and I have four amazing kids, eight grands and three greats. One of our sons is a dang fine drummer. We are proud that they are all successfully making their way in the world. First of all, let me say congratulations on the three greats. That's great.

[04:45] SANDY PETERSON: They are so cool.

[04:48] RICHARD NG: There's so many. There's a lot of questions I like to ask you. I guess I'd like to know about more of your, about your family. Do your kids live nearby or are they scattered around?

[05:04] SANDY PETERSON: Three of our kids live in western Washington within about an hour and a half of us, and one lives over in tri cities.

[05:11] RICHARD NG: And how old are the three great.

[05:13] SANDY PETERSON: Grand, the three great grahams? One just turned seven, one is going to be five next month, and one just turned four.

[05:22] RICHARD NG: Oh, wow. That's great.

[05:26] SANDY PETERSON: Three boys full of it. They are full of life and joy and love and. Oh, my gosh, it's worth, it's worth all of the foibles of getting old to watch them grow.

[05:43] RICHARD NG: So can I ask other questions that I'm curious about? I'm curious about your work as a civil service commissioner and your work with elections. Can you tell me a little bit more about that?

[05:57] SANDY PETERSON: Oh, sure. A civil service commissioner works depending on how your city is structured. We deal with anything that the union does. Nothing with the fire department or the police department in our town. So if a person has a complaint or thinks they were treated unfairly or something like that, then they send a request to us and we look at it. We look at it and we. That sort of thing. And in elections work, they pay me $16 an hour. Wow. Right. We scan signatures, we open the ballots, we make sure that they can be properly read. We put aside the ones that have to be done manually. We handle ballots all election season.

[06:54] RICHARD NG: Great, important work.

[06:56] SANDY PETERSON: They tell us that we stand on the, we stand in the how, basically we stand on the, on the edges of democracy.

[07:06] RICHARD NG: I totally agree.

[07:09] SANDY PETERSON: I'm curious about your going to New York and working in the theater and that sort of thing, that, that's fascinating to me.

[07:19] RICHARD NG: By working the theater?

[07:20] SANDY PETERSON: Yeah. You mean you said you're, you're a musician?

[07:24] RICHARD NG: I was a teacher for ten years, and then I moved to New York to become an actor. And I was an actor for about a ten or twelve years until I decided I needed to get real income. And I worked at Columbia University until I retired. But because I was an asian American in the early eighties, in acting in New York, there was a really hard time finding enough work and roles because casting people just pretty much stereotyped you. And I was always either a waiter in chinese restaurant or a korean deli owner or some stereotypical thing like that. And I was always asked to speak with an accent. And so a friend, another friend of mine who is also asian, and I were discussing this. We decided to start a brand new theater company called the National Asian American Theatre Company. And the mission of the company was to cast, to have all asian cast in american and european classical theater. So we did Shakespeare and Ibsen and Thornton Wilder and those classical authors, all with all asian casts.

[08:46] SANDY PETERSON: Awesome.

[08:48] RICHARD NG: About 30 years ago now, and the company is doing really, really well.

[08:54] SANDY PETERSON: And it's called the National Asian American Theater Company. Okay.

[09:01] RICHARD NG: And if you're curious about it, you can find us on naatconatgo.org dot.

[09:11] SANDY PETERSON: I will. Thank you. Had to write that down. All right, I. So you also sing. Where do you sing?

[09:24] RICHARD NG: I do sing. I sing with the Issaquah Singers here in New York. I sang for 20 years with the New York City Gaiman's chorus. And so I did like the singing, and I missed it. So I found a local chorus here, and I love the chorus here because it's primarily older singers, but not exclusively. But the mission is for the chorus to go into nursing homes and retirement communities, to bring music to people who cannot go out to hear it. And it's just a wonderful program, and it's so rewarding to sing in these nursing homes and retirement communities. It fits my, where I am singing in my life right now to a.

[10:07] SANDY PETERSON: T, my sister, who passed away a few years ago, she and her husband, they were both fabulous musicians, which is where I think my son gets it. One of the things they did was to go to nursing homes over on the Olympic peninsula, and I would go with them sometimes. And Kathy Mateo wrote a song called the song remembers when. I don't know if I remember that song or not, but my sister and her husband would go into Alzheimer's units. And they would roll people in who were so out of it. Right. They just were out of it. And they would start playing, and these people would get up and dance. And it just brought tears to my eyes that they. They knew there was something in the back of their head that. So I get it, Richard, I love that you do that. That's beautiful music.

[11:02] RICHARD NG: Music is an amazing thing for people who are aging and who have memory problems. It just. Music seems to transcend something in the mind that brings it all back. And just recently, we went to a nursing home, and most of the people were in wheelchairs, and some of them looked like they were totally out of it and just not present. And then when we started to sing, all of a sudden, they perked up. And some of them were, like, singing along because we sing familiar songs. And it's just so rewarding to see that.

[11:37] SANDY PETERSON: It is so happy you get to see that. That's a blessing to get to watch, too. Good for you.

[11:43] RICHARD NG: Thank you for.

[11:44] SANDY PETERSON: You're welcome. You're welcome. Sandy and Richard, sorry not to. Not to stop you, but I did drop one more question in the chat. Feel free to continue going however you're going, though. I just wanted to let you know. Okay, perfect. Thank you. I think it was perfectly good time to move on. So this question is, who has been the most influential person in your life, and what did they teach you?

[12:12] RICHARD NG: You know, when I saw this question on the StoryCorps website, I had a hard time thinking about it because I never really thought about that before. I never really thought of a particular person who had the greatest influence in my life.

[12:27] SANDY PETERSON: And.

[12:27] RICHARD NG: And after thinking about it, I have to. I came to the conclusion that I think it was my mother. My mother passed away quite early. My father passed away in a car accident when I was eight, and my mother passed away when I was 36.

[12:46] SANDY PETERSON: So.

[12:49] RICHARD NG: But my mother was an influence to me because we didn't share the same political beliefs by any means. She was an immigrant from China, and we lived in a small town in eastern Washington, Newport, Washington, where there were about a thousand people. And we were the only asian family, non white family in the town because we own the chinese restaurant in town. And she was very conservative because my whole family had escaped communism in China and therefore, was really afraid of government. So they were very conservative. And I was taught at that conservative political view. But what she really taught me was that she was a tremendously tolerant and generous woman, and she did not like the path of life that I was choosing. She would rather have had me be a doctor or a lawyer like most asian families. But I decided that I wanted. I majored in English, and I became an english teacher, and I wanted to do an actor, and she didn't like it, but she never, ever disapproved, and she never, ever said, you know, I don't want you to do that, or you can't do that. She didn't want me to move to New York, and she was always so generous with all my friends. She would always welcome my friends, and she would cook for them and have them stay at her place. And so she was a great influence in my. In teaching me generosity and tolerance. And so can I ask you the most influential question in your life and what they taught you?

[14:34] SANDY PETERSON: Absolutely. I'm going to take a little bit of speaker license here and mention two people, because not all influence is positive. My grandmother, my father's mother, adopted me when I was young because my parents couldn't figure out what they were gonna do with their life. And she adopted me when she was 50, so she was older. Right. So having a youngster in your life is not always easy at that age. But what she taught me, I don't think she meant to teach me, but she taught me that I really couldn't do anything that she had not pre approved. And if I was gonna try, I probably wasn't gonna be very good at it anyway. And she taught me, love is granted when you obey. And so that took me a long time to recover from. And I have to give full, 100% accolades to my husband because he showed me that love is unconditional and that I can achieve anything I wanted to and that I am smart and that I am worthy. And so his acceptance gave me the freedom to grow and explore and become the person that I became after I got kind of broke through the surface of my grandmother telling me what I couldn't do, because everything I wanted to do, she gave me all the reasons I couldn't, and everything I want to do, my husband shows me the reasons that I can.

[16:06] RICHARD NG: Sounds like you're very lucky to have met your husband in Maryland.

[16:09] SANDY PETERSON: I am. I would agree. I would agree. And I think that. I think you have learned. You learned from your mom, who, of course, hopefully, is always our best teacher, right? And she taught you some valuable things. She taught you tolerance and love, and that we accept what people that we do love, what the people that we love, what they do, we let them do it because we love them. That's true when it's not hard when it's not harmful.

[16:44] RICHARD NG: Yes.

[16:47] SANDY PETERSON: Good for you to have a good mom.

[16:51] RICHARD NG: Likewise with your husband.

[16:53] SANDY PETERSON: Thank you. Thank you. We are asked here if we could, could you please briefly describe in a few years your personal political values? Chatted about that a little bit with your mom, but what are your personal political views? Values?

[17:09] RICHARD NG: I also pondered this question when I read it first. And I think that I can, I try to distill my political values down into a narrow concept. And I think my political values lead me to generally equality, equality for all. And I am very concerned about the social and economic inequities of society right now. And I would, and I just want to do as much as I can to, to further equality of all people, no matter what race, gender or sexual orientation that they are in. And I, the whole, the history of racism in this country disturbs me and I would, whatever I can do as an individual, rectify that situation. Can you describe in your word your personal political values?

[18:36] SANDY PETERSON: I can. I will say that my family was Democrat and so I grew up in a pretty strong Democrat household life. My dad, who I knew, even though I didn't live with my parents, knew, because you're a Washingtonian, I will tell you, he knew Scoop Jackson, he knew Warren Magnuson. He would stand at the government would by the governor and say, you know this person, you know, this is Ralph. His wife is married, they have two kids. So the governor could go, hey, Ralph, how are marrying the kids? Right? So he was kind of a minder and worked with the AFL CIO. So I grew up in a Democrat surroundings and then I kind of watched the Democrat party change. And so for me, my belief is smaller government closer to home. I don't think the people in Washington DC have the first idea what we need in our towns and cities and counties and states. I believe that we should be very careful about fiscal responsibility. I prefer lower taxes because I figure I can waste my money just as well as they can. I have a lot of national pride. I believe in honoring our veterans, protecting our borders, and letting people provide for themselves when they can. And part of that for me is offering people a hand up instead of a handout because I think when we subsidize people and tell them you can't do that, you are not capable. For me, Richard, that is nothing more than soft bigotry. People can better themselves and I think we should help them to do so, not squash them down and tell them they can't. I'm very much a hand up person. I also think we should not give handouts to people who won't help themselves. If you can't help yourself, it's one thing. If you refuse to, for me, it's another. And I happen to lean very America first because I feel like when America is weak, the rest of the world gets a little shaky. And I don't know how we are supposed to help the rest of the world if we can't help ourselves first, if we don't have it to share. That's kind of succinctly. It's pretty broad, but it's, but it's succinct. And part of it you probably disagree with, and that's kind of why we're here.

[21:10] RICHARD NG: Well, I do agree with you in the hand up rather than the handout, but I, what I, what I worry about is that we're not, I think people should be able to improve themselves, but I think that they need a little help because they have been hindered for so many decades because of racism, that I think we need to rectify that by helping them out. My mentor, the kids, it's pretty much an asian and white neighborhood here, but the kids that I met, I have specifically asked that the mentor students who are african american, and so all the kids that I mentor are african american. And I can see the cultural divide between the kids and the way I was brought up. And so I would just feel that society should support them as much as they can in boosting their confidence, not making them as angry as I can see that they are. And I think part of society helping them is partly economic. And I'm not saying that we should give them welfare or anything. Maybe we should for some cases, but I think we should finance their schools so they have as good a school education as their white peers and that they have many opportunities to feel good about themselves as the white population. That's not fair because there are plenty of white people who are disadvantaged as well.

[23:29] SANDY PETERSON: I don't disagree with you that all children should have the same opportunities. I totally agree with you. And I don't care. Color, race, ethnicity, I don't. Sexual orientation, I don't care. I think it is the job of our schools to help provide that. So I don't think that we're too far apart on that, Richard. I really don't. When I say offer a hand up, not a handout I liked. I think it was a Clinton program where people on welfare could work, like through a system, and gradually, as you made more money, you got a little less help and a little less help and a little less help that came back and smacked one of my kids because she worked herself high enough up the ladder where she was just on the edge, but they wouldn't no longer pay for her child care. So there are things that we need to kind of work on. What I don't like is when people who are able say, I'm not going to work. I'm just going to be on a government dole. I don't like that. That's not fair to anybody, because then it takes away from those people who actually need the help just because they're lazy. And I don't. That, for me, is not an excuse to get a government handout, is what I mean by that.

[24:56] RICHARD NG: Yeah. My personal experience with somebody like that was there was a person that I met when I lived in New York, and she had been on welfare, subsidized housing all her life, and her mother had taken. Had been on welfare and lived in subsidized housing. And so that is a contribution grew up in. And I agree with you that the culture needs to be changed. How. But it's a. How to do that. Exactly. I don't have any choice, but I recognize that it's a cultural problem, and it's not an individual laziness.

[25:53] SANDY PETERSON: I think. I think you both are getting into.

[25:55] RICHARD NG: Like, this tension that a lot of.

[25:57] SANDY PETERSON: Us are struggling with. Like, we just. We don't have answers to a lot of these tensions. Right. That you're like. I think a lot of people are debating them. I put a couple questions in the.

[26:07] RICHARD NG: Chat, but I actually kind of want.

[26:08] SANDY PETERSON: To ask you if it's okay if. Because you've kind of. I can see you both weighing kind of where. Where you overlap and where you diverge a little bit. And I'm kind of curious if we could ask that third question about, you know, do you see the three there? I know that you're supposed to pick.

[26:29] RICHARD NG: One, but I'm just gonna.

[26:31] SANDY PETERSON: I'm curious what your answers to that third one would be. That's the one. I was gonna ask that, do you ever feel trouble? That one. Which one do you like, Richard? She wants us to talk about number three. Which one do you like?

[26:56] RICHARD NG: I think I like. Do you ever feel misunderstood by people with different beliefs than you go for both of them? I just think that they kind of.

[27:05] SANDY PETERSON: Build on some of the pieces that you're already talking about, so. Okay, sure.

[27:12] RICHARD NG: So do you ever feel misunderstood by people with different beliefs in you?

[27:19] SANDY PETERSON: A lot? I do, because I think what happens is we were brought up. We're close enough to the same age, Richard. We were brought up. You don't talk about religion or politics. That's just not what you do. Right. So we never really learned how to do it, and so it becomes kind of difficult. But where I feel is that when people say, well, all Republicans believe x, or because you're a Republican, I must hate you. Or, well, you're a Republican, so you hate, you disagree with, and they don't ever ask you, so how do you feel about. I don't care. Abortion, how do you feel about welfare? How do you feel about anything? They just want to lump us. It's that generalized, marginalized, demonized thing that, that we have become very adept at in our society. And I think I'm. I'm under. I get misunderstood because they don't ask me. They assume.

[28:34] RICHARD NG: That'S right. I agree with you, and I do feel misunderstood also. But I think that I can help them understand me if I could get them to know me.

[28:50] SANDY PETERSON: Yeah.

[28:50] RICHARD NG: Know that I am a human being just like they are, that I have fear and I breathe the same air that they do, and I require oxygen and food and water just like they do, and that I'm on this earth just like they are. And if they understood that we have more common ground than they think, or you're a socialist liberal, get past that and see me as an individual, I think we could make ground. And this is one of the reasons why it's great to talk to you about it.

[29:28] SANDY PETERSON: Thank you. I think it's good to talk to you, too. And then I do think the next question is important, because that's what. And that's the one I was going to ask you anyway. Richard, do you ever feel troubled by people with the same beliefs as you and how they communicate those beliefs to others?

[29:47] RICHARD NG: I live in such a bubble that I never considered that question.

[29:54] SANDY PETERSON: Well, maybe we should pop your bubble.

[29:56] RICHARD NG: I can say, though, that I am troubled by the people who have the same beliefs that I do, but who are just, who are too rigid in their beliefs and will not listen to or hear any other beliefs that they do. And just as you said earlier, just dismiss them. Oh, you know, they're Republicans and they're out to get us democrats, and I can't believe how stupid they are, and they can't see the way I see things. And so it's the same problem of people not willing to listen to and consider the other person as a human being who is vulnerable just like they are.

[30:51] SANDY PETERSON: Well, we're just a basket of deplorables, you know?

[30:56] RICHARD NG: So how about you? Do you feel troubled by people with the same beliefs and how they communicate?

[31:02] SANDY PETERSON: I do. I do. Because I actually happen to also work with a group called civility first. And we have these conversations with people a lot. We do workshops.

[31:12] RICHARD NG: I'm sorry, you work with who?

[31:14] SANDY PETERSON: Civility first.

[31:17] RICHARD NG: Okay.

[31:18] SANDY PETERSON: And we do these workshops with people and talk about that. And one of the things that disturbs me about my side of the aisle is, and maybe yours, too, but I'm talking about mine now. We have forgotten how to be ladies and gentlemen, and I hear my side of the aisle doing a lot of this. Right? And you're wrong, because I think you are. Or they're very stringent or strident in their viewpoint, and then they try to back it up with. Because the Bible says, and I'm like, we are a political party. We are not a church. So take that off the table. Right one. Fine. Have the values, your judeo christian ethic that our country was founded on. I'm okay with that. But like you, you follow Buddhism. Is that the proper way to say it? Is it Buddhism? Okay. I didn't know if there was another, like, islam and Muslim are kind of the same, and I didn't want to say it wrong. It doesn't mean you don't have a faith or that you don't have a value system that, heaven forbid, I might learn something from. And so I think we have to be less sure of ourselves and recognize that people in general want the same thing for our country. Our roads are often different, but many times our goal is the same. And so I don't like how we get so pointy fingered and stringent. Strident.

[32:57] RICHARD NG: Right, right. I can say that since I've been meditating and studying Buddhism, that I do consider myself an extremely spiritual person, not necessarily christian. But one of the vows that I took as a, as a Buddhist recently is one of the things. One of the tenets of that vow is to never talk bad badly about any other religion and to respect all other religions as a legitimate belief for those individuals. And so I sometimes wish that some of the, some of the christians would heed that same advice.

[33:45] SANDY PETERSON: Well, you know, that's a worthy goal, my friend. That's a worthy goal.

[33:53] RICHARD NG: I really, I really love that you said that until when you, in your civility first meetings, some people resented to the Bible and you said, this is not a church. I really appreciated that remark a lot.

[34:07] SANDY PETERSON: Oh, I tell that to my republican friends in civility first, we don't. We're the. We're very bipartisan or non partisan. We, you know, we just teach people in workshops how to have hard conversations without wanting to kill the other person. But, yeah, I mean, there are so many things that people believe they must do because of their religion. And I'm like, okay, but that's not politics. That's religion. So. No. And I find one of my best friends is a Quaker lady. She and her husband are Quakers, and they're very peaceable people. And. And, you know, probably. I could probably be described as a hawk. And. In terms of some political leanings. Right. But, man, we have got to get away from this. Tribalism is yours. Mine. We don't need tribes to survive anymore in our country.

[35:16] RICHARD NG: No, we. Tribalism is going to be one of the factors of the downfall of the country if it's not rectified. And I agree. Just the fact that the two of us are talking can alleviate that.

[35:38] SANDY PETERSON: Yeah. Yeah. We don't stop. Well, they. Somebody said, and I don't mean to be contrite, but somebody was talking about the floods in Texas, and when the boats were rescuing people, they didn't say, hey, you up there on the roof, what's your, you know, what's your political party? Or what's your religion? They went, hey, you up there on the roof, I came to help you come to my boat. Right. And we have to learn how to do that. If I have a political sign for one person in my yard and you have a political sign for another person in your yard, Richard, I'm going to hope with every fiber in my being that my house catches on fire. You're going to help me get out and vice versa.

[36:20] RICHARD NG: Absolutely. Yes. Yes.

[36:24] SANDY PETERSON: I mean, we got it.

[36:27] RICHARD NG: One of the main tenants of Buddhism is that people, all people, are basically good and the basic goodness. And it is my job as a Buddhist to try to help people find their basic goodness. And so I will always be available to help anybody, because the other tenet is to put all living things, welfare, ahead of my own. And so that's important to me, too.

[37:19] SANDY PETERSON: So we should probably move on here. Up to you. I added some more questions in the chat, but this is really, if you want to continue, I do have one that I'm curious about, but I will let you. Can I. I'm also. I think for me, I feel really. I feel like it's a gift for me to listen to two of my elders in the community, also to hear you both speak. And I'm wondering, did you always think the way you do or how would you, how would you characterize your journeys to coming to how you think now? Well, I would tell you. I, go ahead. I will tell you. I haven't always felt like this. I think one of the things that I'm watching politically is the things that I very much disagree with. I'm letting go of a little bit because I'm not going to be here. Right. I plan to live to be 101. So we're talking 30 more years. But I won't be as nimble, Kamna, as you are. Right. The decisions that you guys are making are the decisions you have to live with. And I appreciate when people want to look back at history and see, you know, if I, if I move this way or that way, how is that going to affect my future? But I think I've learned from, I have eight grandchildren. I've certainly learned a lot from them, from watching our four kids grow up, learn, watching the politics in our nation and around the world change if a person doesn't look out and see what's coming and be nimble. I mean, I laugh at my grandkids sometimes because I call and ask them questions about my computer and they laugh at me. I'm like, to choose you, how to use a spoon? Don't you get sharky with me. But they laugh in good fun and I laugh back in good fun, of course. But we have to be nimble and we, but we have to also be willing to change with times. I think, and I just think I came to that by watching and learning and being around. You can't force people to be like you, nor maybe do you want them to be.

[39:55] RICHARD NG: Yeah, I, right out of college, I became a teacher. And for the last 50, 60 years, I've been such an advocate for youth and gay youth because I'm gay. And I think that they have a lot of problems growing up, but youth in general, because I think youth is the future of this country and they have to be supported and they have to feel good about themselves for the good of the country. So I do everything that I can to help the youth along because, as you say, I'm not going to be here for that much longer. And they're going to have to carry on, and I want them to carry on this best that they can for the good of democracy and the good of the country and the good of the world.

[40:52] SANDY PETERSON: Right. I think the other thing, if I might, because my family's largest or smallish, depending on where you come from, we took in my father and my mother, after they finally figured out they could live together, took in foster boys. And until we were middle teenagers, we had foster kids in our home. And although I lived with my grandmother, I was at my parents house a lot. And one of the young men, probably more than one, but the one that stayed with us the longest was gay. Is gay, has been living with and married to his partner now for, oh, my God, better than 50 years. And to me, whether the state sanctions it or doesn't, that's a marriage, right? He's one of the kindest, gentlest, smartest, most humble men I know. Of my eight grandchildren, I'm 100% certain two of them are gay. One of them, I think, is going to totally transgender. And I have to learn about that, and I have to be loving about that, and I have to. I've learned with one of them to really watch my. Because anything I say that's a little bit. Maybe not. What's the word I'm looking for? Not. Doesn't promote what they want to do is taken then, as a, you don't want to do this. You don't like me anymore, grandma? And I'm like, no. So, I've learned that a lot of this generation wants to be asked questions. You have to be careful to form your. What you're going to say properly to be heard, especially if you want to hear back.

[42:39] RICHARD NG: I so much appreciate your. What you said about transgender. One of the things that I have done, I've been. I was a counselor for the Trevor project because the suicide hotline for transgender and gay youth, and I didn't know much about transgender at all until I started the youth course in New York. And, like, with our four or five transgender kids, and I. It just blew my mind. I just. I didn't know. I didn't. I didn't use any pronouns because I didn't know what to say. But one of the things that I in working as a counselor for the Trevor project and talking to these kids on the phone is that they just need so much support so that they don't feel so bad about themselves because society, especially now, is telling them that they are not worthy or they're not legitimate, and they just need support in. In whatever they choose in life. And you don't. You may not understand it, but if you're empathetic and compassionate to them, that's all. That's one of the biggest things that they need, is compassion.

[44:00] SANDY PETERSON: I totally agree. It looks like our time is almost up. What is your closing question you want to ask me, Richard.

[44:19] RICHARD NG: The closing question that I want to ask you is. It's more of a comment, is that I hope that you have enjoyed this conversation as much as I have.

[44:34] SANDY PETERSON: I absolutely have.

[44:37] RICHARD NG: And you go ahead. You ask me.

[44:44] SANDY PETERSON: I'm so sorry, Richard. There are, I don't know if you.

[44:46] RICHARD NG: Saw them, but there's some in the chat, too, if you want to pull from.

[44:49] SANDY PETERSON: Okay.

[44:56] RICHARD NG: Oh, there's so many, Sandy I do like this one. How can we come together after a pandemic and such a divisive election year? Do you have any thoughts on how we can come together because we've talked about.

[45:31] SANDY PETERSON: I am sure. I'm happy to answer that. Although I think it's interesting because it's kind of an old question. It's becoming a new question. Right? Because if we think that the Trump Biden election was divisive, I don't think we've begun clearing our throats yet. I just don't. I think that this next election cycle is going to be, is going to make that election cycle look like pikers. I think both sides are gearing up to kill each other. I personally don't think the Democrats really want Biden and Harris. And I know that a lot of Republicans don't want Trump and anybody. So it's going to be. Well, for me, it's fun because I love this stuff. How do we come together? Is probably the more important part of that question. And I think it's, it goes kind of back to the golden rule. My sister, who I mentioned before and who passed away a few years ago, we had shirts that we wore. Mine said right wing that, and hers said left wing, right wing school, left wing that I don't remember. They were funny little t shirts that we wore when we were together. And when she went and wore her little pussy hat and held her little sign up and she sent it to me and I laughed at her, and then she'd call me and tell me, so what's your new brainwash for the day we made it? We laughed at each other because our, because we loved each other, right? And I think there's a really good ted talk about two women who knew each other and of course, ₩1 in the election and one lost. And the children of the winner said, what are we going to do? Because they lost. What do we say? And she said, we. And I'm really sorry that you feel so bad, but I love you and I want you to be okay. And that, I think, is really important to remember that we're human. And if your guy wins and my guy loses, good for you, bad for me. And that we would just remember that at the core, we love each other. One of the reasons I got into the civility work at all was I bought a raffle ticket at a. In Mount Vernon, at the train station. My husband and I were going to go down to Portland. And I believe that you buy lemonade and you buy raffle tickets from kids that are selling them. That's just part of the entrepreneurial spirit of America. And so this thought this woman was selling raffle tickets for her granddaughter. And we got to chatting, and she told me that her children were not talking to her husband because of how he voted. And I thought, that's awful. That's just awful. Your dad. And these are probably sexist examples, but your dad teaches you how to fish. You stand on his feet and learn how to waltz. He teaches you how to drive a stick shift. If you know how to change the oil in your car and the tires, it's probably because of your dad. Your dad's your first example of who you want to marry. How do you not talk to them over somebody you'll never meet? How do you do that? And what is wrong with that? And that's why I do this, Richard, is because we can't not talk to the people we love and know over an election. It's not how our country was built. The people who formed our constitution practically came to blows, but they walked away with a good document. We have got to learn that. I can disagree with the. What you believe with all my heart and still love you as a human being. We've got to get there.

[49:33] RICHARD NG: Bravo, Sandy. Absolutely. You're moving me to tears.

[49:39] SANDY PETERSON: I'm sorry.

[49:42] RICHARD NG: That's. You're totally right. Love is the most important. Love is the most important thing that we can give to each other, no matter what their political beliefs are. Yeah.

[49:57] SANDY PETERSON: Or religious beliefs. I feel like I am a Christian, and I. I feel like if you are the only. If I am the only Christian you ever meet, is my job to make sure I draw you to God, not turn you away from him. So, you know, and I'm sure that there is some buddhist tenet very much like that.

[50:21] RICHARD NG: There is. I have a friend who is a Christian but is very much into Buddhism because they're not. They're not mutually exclusive. And she said that there's so much commonality between the philosophy of Buddhism and Christianity that people just don't know.

[50:42] SANDY PETERSON: Yeah. Because they find the verse they want and then they pound it to death. Right. My favorite minister used to say, you gotta go find out what the therefore is there for. So, Richard, I have a question for you. Was I who you thought I was gonna be? Did you come into this with any kind of trepidation?

[51:10] RICHARD NG: I didn't have any preconceived idea of what you might be. But when I first laid eyes on you, I thought, oh, this is a really good person to talk to. I really like her already, so I had no preconception. But you certainly are the person that I hoped that you would be.

[51:33] SANDY PETERSON: Well, you're the person I hoped you would be, too. I have to say, kamna, one of the things, when I saw Richard's bio, I said, they are trying to put people together who were miles apart. And except for our music background, we are, on paper, miles apart. So good job. Yeah, I mean, I'm happy because it's. Yeah, this is my first time, you know, facilitating, too, so I didn't know.

[52:02] RICHARD NG: How it's gonna go.

[52:03] SANDY PETERSON: But, yeah, that's the idea is like, yeah, miles apart. It's funny, some people are very similar on paper, and then they're, you know, miles apart when you talk to them. It can be the other way around. But I felt like it was a gift for me to listen to both of you. So thank you for letting me sit in. I will.

[52:25] RICHARD NG: Shall I bring this to a close?

[52:26] SANDY PETERSON: Any last thoughts before I stop recording? I. You, we. If we have the time, one of the going deeper questions was thinking about the future of the country. What are your fears or concerns? And because you were raised republican and obviously have turned democratic, more or less, I think. What are your fears and concerns? Because you kind of know both sides of the aisle, kind of like I do. What do you see that makes you unhappy? Are worried?

[52:58] RICHARD NG: I. I really. I really fear for democracy in America. I do fear. I fear that. That we might become an autocratic country if we're not careful.

[53:17] SANDY PETERSON: I call it a banana republic. I think that's the same thing.

[53:20] RICHARD NG: I agree. I agree with you. What you said earlier that. No, I forgot. It went out of my mind, but. Oh, it's that. What you said about the 2024 election will be nothing like the 2016 election. The 2016 election will be like peanuts compared. And I totally agree. And I'm not a fearful person by any means, but I do fear the election of 2024. I just fear the reactions, no matter what the result is on both sides. And because of that fear, I have great concerns for the future of democracy. On that sort of negative note, can you, what about you, Sandy?

[54:20] SANDY PETERSON: What do I think about the country? That same question. You know, I feel like our country fought a revolution. We fought a civil war when 911 happened. We came together as a country and we remembered who we were as a country. I think that the people who are younger than us while they are, while they can be miles apart politically, my prayer is that they will remember who we are as a country. Ronald Reagan was right when he said we are a shining city on the hill. If there is no America, where do people go? Where do they go? And so I worry more about the fall of the republic than I do necessarily about any one election. But I think the people, whoever at the top, and you and I might agree on whether they're doing a good or a bad job, I want there to always be patriots who will remember who we are and why we're here and why our country came to be, so that we get back to our foundations. Some, I think, are still here. Some I think, have crumbled. Some are in ruins. But I think the basis is still here. So, and above all else, whatever we call him, God, is in control.

[55:56] RICHARD NG: And I want them to remember what democracy really is and to, and to continue the democratic society that we were based on.

[56:11] SANDY PETERSON: You know, I have a question, if I might, and you can stop, if you want to stop your recording, you can. My democrat friends always talk about the democracy, but we have.