Sandra Lewis + Andy DeStephano

00:01 Hi, my name is Sandra Lewis. I am 72 years old and I live in Suffolk, Virginia. Today's date is June 14, 2022 and I am recording at the WTJU studio in Charlottesville, Virginia. My partner's name is Andy.

00:21 Hi, my name is Andy DeStephano I am 45 years old and currently reside in Palmyra, Virginia. Today's date is June 14, 2022, and I'm recording at the WTJU studio in Charlottesville, Virginia. My partner's name is Sandra. What made you want to have a conversation and why did you sign up to participate?

00:50 Well, I'll go 1st. First of all, I was curious about the process and. But I also like to discuss various issues to hear from people who may have a lot of similarities but may have a lot of differences. I'd like to have something recorded for posterity in my age group. You think more about that. So basically, I was given the opportunity by the Karsh Institute if I wanted to participate. So I said yes.

01:32 I found this, stumbled across this on social media one evening. It looked like a very interesting project. I do like the idea of being able to have conversations with others and also it's nice to have something for prosperity here as well. So. And documented.

01:52 Good. Wonderful.

01:54 So, as I mentioned before, you have a copy of what your partner wrote to introduce themselves.

02:00 So I'm going to ask you each to take a moment to read out what they wrote. And once you've each read out your.

02:05 Partner'S bio, if there are any questions.

02:08 That come to mind immediately that you.

02:10 Want to follow up on, I encourage.

02:12 You to do that. So I'm going to sheila for a moment, just turn the lights down a little bit, but you can go ahead. May I ask, you want me to read the whole thing? Okay. Please allow me to introduce myself. I'm a man of wealth and taste, unapologetically opinionated. Number one, free speech. Number two, right to bear arms. Number three, freedom of worship. Number four, free enterprise. Number five, limited government. Number six, family, friends and animals. Number seven, health and well being. Number eight, fiscal responsibility and accountability. Number nine, minimalism and sustainability. Number ten, law and order. Number eleven, free thinking. And number twelve, individualism. I was raised in New York, specifically Long island. I've lived in New Hampshire, New Jersey and most recently Pennsylvania. Education. I've earned a bachelor of science from St. John's University and BA from Centenary University. Professionally, I've spent over 20 years in higher education and intercollegiate athletics, with the exception of four years as a sales representative.

03:39 Sandra, I was born and raised in Charlottesville. I integrated the schools in Charlottesville in 1959, at the age of nine. I was one of the first women to graduate from the college at UVA. I married another UVA grad and have one daughter. I have lived in Virginia, Nevada and Tennessee. I have worked in the financial services as a stock broker and or banking officer. I like giving college scholarships. I've always voted for democrats. I am very concerned about the polarization and violence in our country.

04:25 Okay, Andy, I think you might win the award on the bio because you have given me a little bit more than the usual information. But that's good, because that helps me to really understand you. And you talk about a lot of your values. So what? I do have a specific question about some of your values, and I guess I'd like to know more about what you mean by limited government.

05:12 Well, when you look at the way our nation was designed and the framework of our founding fathers, it was to limit the scope of control of a particular body of people. So when I look at limited government, from my perspective, is being able to provide structure without interfering with the rights of the individual. And when that, when you look at the overall larger picture, it is being able to, like, as I previously stated, provide some structure for the common good without interfering with individual liberties rights.

06:08 Okay, well, you do list a few right that you must believe in free speech, right to bear arms, freedom of worship. Don't you feel that the government has to weigh in on how that is interpreted by the people?

06:34 No, I think that is overstepping their boundaries.

06:41 Okay. So basically, you feel that these rights, some of these rights are limitless. There are no barriers to free speech.

06:56 That is a very gray area. For example, you cannot stand in a public place and shout fire. That is false and could cause a uproar and, or, you know, upheaval or, you know, injury. But when you're expressing your thoughts or your opinions, who is it to, who are you to say that, you know, you. You're not able to do so in this capacity? You know, I think the. The issue that we find, um, is that, you know, um, when you get in, incorporate a third party to decipher what. What they believe in is right or what is wrong and what should be said or communicated. Um, that is where I feel that, you know, you're alienating and stepping into an area that you should not be, uh, you know, venturing into. Just case in point, when it comes to, you know, the overall, you know, protection in terms of, you know, shouting fire in a public place, you know, and that being absolutely false in, you know, that causing, you know, upheaval once again or destruction or injury, you know, that I. Can you concede and say you should be limited on those types of things.

08:31 Okay. So the government has somewhat of a role because there are no other parties to decide that. I mean, it either comes from our laws, the courts, you know, but in some way or another, there has to be some oversight.

08:56 Some oversight? Is that what we're getting at?

08:58 Yeah. Okay. We. The government has to be there, as you said, for the greater good, for. Okay, but. But you. As you said, you did say limited. So that means you didn't say no government. You said limited.

09:12 Limited.

09:13 Yes.

09:13 I will give you. I'm not. I'm not suggesting we should live in an anarchy and a free fall.

09:21 Okay?

09:21 Not lord of the flies.

09:23 Well, you know, I grew up in a very interesting. At an interesting time in the country's history, and I lived right here in Charlottesville, and I was really a child of the civil rights movement. And at that particular time, the south was very segregated. There were actually laws on the books that kept the races separated, and there were. And the justice system was very slanted towards taking away the rights of African Americans. And I mentioned in my bio that I integrated the schools in Charlottesville in 1959. And we had at that time, first of all, in 1954, there was a court case and brown board of education. Okay, right. Okay, so you're young, but you know the history. Well, you were in academia, so, you know. Okay, so I have a lot of 40 year olds that don't know that. But anyway, so basically, in order for African Americans felt that it was better that we not be segregated because of a law that if we wanted to be segregated in terms of our own friends and neighborhoods and that kind of thing, then that was an individual choice. But in terms of the law stating, this is where you can live, this is where you can eat, a and your kids will not attend school together. So my question to you is the way that I was able to attend the school after a year where the schools were actually closed by the governor, because they did, we were still resisting court orders, but court orders. The right to attend an integrated school was one in the courts. And so this basically was a government decree that said, you will integrate the schools, that constitutionally, the Brown versus board had been decided. Do you agree. I'm not asking you for your personal feelings. I'm asking, do you agree with that type of government intervention?

12:32 Let me see if I have no. Am I getting it from your viewpoint here. Do I agree with the government intervening now? We're talking about the federal. The state government at this point intervening in.

12:49 Actually, at that time, it was state.

12:52 Do I know?

12:54 Roe versus wade.

12:55 Yes.

12:56 Had been upheld by the Supreme Court.

12:58 Yeah. So if I agree with the government intervening in cases where it is infringing upon people's liberties, yes, there's a law that is infringing upon. At that point, obviously, it wasn't infringement. If you lived in a community, you should have the right to attend those schools and live in the area that you want to live in as long as you're, you know, paying your taxes and you can afford to live there and you're not, you know, stealing somebody else's land or squatting in their home, you know. Yes. Your rights. Your rights as an individual need to be upheld. And that in that case, your rights of the individual needed to be upheld, and that needed to be upheld by, you know, a. You know, at that point, a third party that would be the government and stepping in and upholding that, you know, in protecting your God given rights as a human being.

13:55 And as I said before, I wasn't trying to put you.

13:57 No, you're not putting me on the spot. I'm just, you know, I just.

14:01 But I just said, when I say.

14:02 Limited government, I don't mean that, you know, the absence of all, you know, forms of government or rule and order or intervention, especially when it comes to protecting the rights of an individual.

14:16 Okay. So, Sandra, you mentioned, you know, growing up during this very huge transition into integrating schools in Charlottesville.

14:29 And I'm wondering if you, and then Andy as well, could talk about what those early formative memories of kind of.

14:37 Political events or kind of cultural changes was like. If there's one memory in particular that stands out to you as having a lot of impact even now, I would say as a child growing up in that environment, it was very confusing at times. It was hurtful because the segregation of that era meant that we had a movie theater. We had two movie theaters in town, and the black children had to sit in the balcony and the white children set at the bottom, I guess we call it. There's another name for it. But anyway, the seats at the bottom of the theater and there, you know, and you knew that just about every. Except for a few small black owned businesses, just about every restaurant, even hot dog joint or hamburger joint, you could not go to the window and order a sandwich. And so it was. It was a time that was very. It was very confusing because you really had you really doubt it yourself, your self worth. Why am I not good enough to do this? Why am I not good enough to do that? And I don't like to dwell on that so much because we have come so far since then, and I'm very grateful for that. But it was what it was. But I will say that there were a lot of brave people, both black and white, that took huge risk to overcome that kind of lifestyle that we had to go through, and I'm really grateful for that.

17:10 What surprised me is you had always mentioned that you have always voted for Democrats. Democrats. And growing up through, you know, segregation. And in that era, what surprised me a little was how many in the Democrat party, even from the time of Lincoln, you know, were, you know, pro segregation, not really the party that, you know, supported, you know, African Americans, black Americans, or in the movement, especially growing up in the south. It surprises me a little that you've always said that you vote for Democrats when at that timeframe, including, and I know he had a large impact upon moving some of the barriers forward. President Johnson was known to have spew racial comments in his office at times. That just surprised me that you would always said you vote for Democrats knowing that that party was also a large.

18:27 Yeah, and I can understand you're making that comment, except that I didn't vote until I was 21. I think it was 21 my first time that I could vote. And the. I'm not quite sure who I voted for the first time, to be quite honest. But the democratic party had changed, okay, from when I went through the integration and the segregation. And you are absolutely right. The southern Democrats, they called them dixiecrats, actually. And they were. A lot of them were racist, and a lot of my father's friends voted for Republicans. There was a transition between the Republicans and the Democrats in terms of the kinds of issues that they were proponents of. And I believe the turning point, it might have been Lyndon Johnson, that might have been the turning point in terms of the democratic party leaning towards passing civil rights legislation. And I think that was really kind of when the Republicans seemed to resist, seemed to resist integration more. And the senator from Arizona, I can't remember his name. I can't remember his name right now, but he was very vehemently against the Civil Rights act. He was a Republican.

20:51 Goldwater.

20:51 Goldwater, yes. Thank you. And I think that's kind of. That was kind of a transition point for when black people seemed to feel that there was more of an allegiance, at least to civil rights, from the Democratic Party. And one thing I do want to say is that I am probably could be called a moderate Democrat. I lean a little left and I lean a little right. I think I'm more socially a Democrat and I'm more fiscally Republican. And so I'm. It just seems that every time that I voted, I just preferred the platform of the Democrat that was coming into office.

21:54 Well, in all sincerity, I would have to say that on certain socialists social issues, I'm more to left of center than I am right. And, you know, it goes back to, you know, let people be people. Right.

22:10 Yeah.

22:10 And, you know, stay out of my business and I'll stay out of yours. And obviously, fiscally and other platforms, I lean, you know, right of incentive. But, you know, right when it comes to social, certain social issues, I. Yeah, you know, it goes back to my, you know, limited government, day out of my business type.

22:31 So, Andy, is there, is there a.

22:32 Formative memory for you growing up?

22:34 That kind of was your introduction to.

22:37 The issues of your time? I think one of the most impactful things, and this is when I was already an adult, that still leaves, you know, an impression upon me to this day. And maybe it's because I'm a new Yorker or just, you know, it just, you know, stands out in my mind was 911. I know in my parents generation, my parents were a little older than you at this point, Sandra, but they went through the Kennedy assassinations, Martin Luther King, the Iran hostage crisis. They've seen a lot of different things happen in life. My generation, fortunately, besides maybe the collapse of communism and the Berlin Wall, you know, there were not, and, you know, maybe a few things I would say won't call them trivial because they were impactful and the people that was happening to at the time, but there was nothing that you could say, where was I when this happened?

23:41 Right.

23:44 911 stands out in my mind. And one thing that really, I think was impactful about that is not only 911 itself, but the days that came after besides the tragedy. And in some ways, we've lost this as a country. There was a sense of pride not only to be an american, and it didn't matter at that point what you looked like, what your background was, how much money you made. Everyone was an american. And people went out of their way to be nice and help one another and bring comfort to each other because they shared one thing in common. And I do think that is what is kind of missing at certain points that we might be able to not always see eye to eye on every issue or agree on you know, the way things get done. But at the end of the day, we still live in a great country and we're all Americans. And just because you might have been brought up differently than I have or have experienced different things or share a different idea does not mean I need to now make you my mortal enemy, that I have to, you know, hate you or defeat you. This is not a movie or a cartoon. It's not a zero sum game. Nobody has to win or nobody has to lose in this, because in these types of situations, when it involves citizens of the country, the only people that lose are the entire country. When we make it a zero sum game, instead of working towards that, what is the best for all of us, and how can we, you know, move forward and, you know, we're all human beings to do the best that we can.

25:45 Absolutely. I agree. I agree fully. And, you know, as I mentioned in my bio, one of my concerns right now is that we are very, seem to be a very polarized country right now.

26:05 You're looking like, I don't know if I necessarily agree with that. I don't know if that is what the, you know, our. And you can throw out any group of letters here when it comes to, you know, our mass media. Is that what they would like us to believe? Because we can have a conversation like this. I've had conversations with many people, including family members, who have different viewpoints. And there's not the vitriol or the poisonous idea of how different we all are. I'm not sure if that is just being sensationalized because that's what gets people to tune in and that's what gets the advertising dollars or if that's really how everybody in this country truly is at this point.

27:06 Well, I really hope you're right on that. And I, and I will say, yeah, in my, you know, in the course of the day, I don't necessarily feel like everybody's out, you know, to get me or, you know, some, these people stay over there and these people stay over here. I guess what I'm seeing, though, is that we do seem to be becoming more tribal in this country. We have our allegiances, and I think even our politicians have their allegiances. We have racial groups that, you know, are, there may be some degree of civility between them, but the issue of how to, how to get things, to keep things going is everybody has a different way of thinking about it. And to me, it is, to me, it's disturbing that we have very few major laws that get passed on a bipartisan vote. And, you know, we just all seem to be entrenched in our corners. And I just feel like I sense it more now than I did. And I do feel that part of the problem. And I will say it, even though I know it's not popular, but I will say that I think Donald Trump polarized our nation because when he said he wanted to make America great again, he was talking. He, you know, what was not great before he came in office? What were these people, what were his followers wanting that he, that was not there when he came into office? And I just feel like that kind of just started the movement. That just started the movement. And I feel like he pitted ethnic groups against each other, religious groups against each other. That just seems to be, you know, how I see it, you mentioned a.

30:26 Lot of different things. Take a moment to reflect upon what you said. Do I see a point that you had? Yes. I think, you know, if you, and I'm not even suggesting this, I'm not saying that there should be upheaval, but, you know, we could conceivably be, you know, 25 and 25 different states living in, you know, two different countries, but, you know, all sharing the same border at this point. Yes, there are a lot of vast differences. I do think the divisiveness started, you know, before, you know, President Trump. I do, you know, I have a different opinion on that. I do think that, you know, I felt that the previous administration was pretty divisive, and I, I did not see that, you know, there's great unification that they had, you know, tried to betray that they were going to be. I can see where people that, you know, grew up during a time where maybe America wasn't that great for them to hear a slogan like Make America great again, that it brings them back to another time. When I look at that, it's like, okay, during my upbringing and, you know, I know my parents have very different political viewpoints than I have, and I'm sure they didn't vote for them. But I remember the Reagan years where the economy was starting to be good. It was good, and people loved America. And that's when I hear make America great again. That's the America I think of, where we have a good economy, where we're proud to be Americans, where we are the greatest country, double, no, triple or troubles, we are still the greatest country on the face of the earth. And that's the America I remember. I do think you mentioned that very few impactful wars get passed. I have a very warped view on queer politicians. I do think there should be term limits. I think a lot of things don't get done because it's simply taking the path of least resistance will get me elected again, which keeps me in office, which keeps me employed and keeps me getting fringe benefits out of this. Why is it that people with no money in their pockets get into politics and 40 years later are multimillionaires on a public servant salary? If you look at our framers, they were doctors, lawyers, teachers, politicians, farmers, and they did what they thought was best for the country and then went back to being doctors, teachers, lawyers, educators, farmers. They weren't there for generations and had generations of their children and grandchildren to follow. This isn't a family business. You serve your time, you do what's right and you're not spending it all campaigning for your next reelection term. I think we have people who are there just too long and I think some of their terms are just too short. If you look at the United States Congress, by the time you are elected, you are a year into actually learning how to do your job and then you're running for reelection again. So you're spending all your time and when do you do any impactful work? Senate. Now if most people six months to a year it takes you to learn how to effectively do your job. If I know I'm only going to be there conceivably for four and I'm running, I need to still campaign. When are you doing your work? You're building up for your next campaign. You're learning how to navigate and do your job and you're trying to keep your job. Give a senator eight years. If you can't get a job done in eight years, there's no other employer in the world that's going to keep you. Give the president twelve years in one time only. Give Congressman eight years or six years only.

35:18 Well, I agree. That does sound like it would be better. But there's some people that I shudder to think, I'm sorry that they would be given eight or twelve years and.

35:34 I'm just throwing that out.

35:36 Yeah, I know, but I understand, I understand. Your point is that, and they are on this vicious cycle every, every two years they're, they're campaigning. Okay. They've got to go out and start campaigning for the next term. So I do agree with that. And probably, maybe with the, maybe with the, with the senators, but the president, I don't, I don't think I could, I would want a president that long.

36:06 Twelve years is probably a little too.

36:08 Yeah, that would be. There's a lot of power, perhaps six in that office. I wanted to jump in to pivot a little bit to.

36:20 Kind of some.

36:22 Personal anecdotes as well. I meant to ask this earlier, but I didn't want to interrupt your conversation. It's very hard for me. That's the hard part of my job. But, Andy, you did mention briefly your parents and having different ideas from them, and I wanted to ask for both of you if growing up, there was.

36:38 Someone who had a strong influence on.

36:41 The way that you think or the way that that has shaped your life significantly, and if you could maybe share what it was that they taught you or what you think about when you think of them. Would you like to go first?

37:01 I'm still thinking.

37:02 Oh, okay. Well, you know, I try to think about a person that has influenced me greatly, and I really couldn't think of anyone other than my mother because I didn't have that mentor, you know, and I didn't really have an adult that, I mean, I looked up to a lot of adults, but I just didn't have that interaction with anyone else. But, you know, I spent a lot of time with my mother. And, you know, she just basically gave me the values that I think have helped me in life. She always. She always taught me to love everybody. And I don't say that as a cliche, even people that may not have been nice to her, even people that, you know, discriminated against her as a black woman, but she just always said, you must love everyone. You don't have to allow yourself to be mistreated, but you must love everyone. That's very important. But she also did tell me that it was okay to stand up for my rights in a civilization manner. She told me, you'll be a lot more at peace and comfortable if you go to church. And, you know, I grew up in the church, and so I believe, you know, I am a Christian. I believe in God. But I think it's even. It goes further than that in that, because whenever I've, you know, had times when I've been, you know, busy with work or college or whatever, and I've gotten away from the church, my life does seem to get a little shakier for some reason. So that's another thing that has influenced me in my life. And there are just a lot of simple things that, you know, nothing that significant, but just the simple things to make life easier for yourself and easier for others. And so she was the greatest influence, and I'm glad she was.

40:27 You had mentioned, you know, and you referred back to when I said that I had very different viewpoints from my parents. They had a great impact upon, on my life for many reasons. Number one, had they chosen not to have children, not to adopt me, I would not be having this conversation right now. So that, you know, it really had a major impact upon my life. And because who could imagine where I may have been, you know, otherwise? And they also taught me that although we might not agree with you, you still have the right to, you know, respectfully say it, obviously, but it doesn't mean that we love you any less. And I don't think any less of them or not love them anymore because they don't share certain viewpoints that I have. And it taught me that you can not always agree with people. You can have different viewpoints but still love one another as well as care for one another. And it doesn't change who you are or who they are. Sometimes you need to look beyond that and judge people for who they are as individuals, not what you feel that, you know, a party platform that they might align with other that's different than yours. It's interesting that you had mentioned, and I don't mean to look at my phone, but I did want to find this quote that you had mentioned being a Christian and going to church. I do as well. Religion wasn't always very strong in my. For many years. I kind of found it later on in my early forties when I was going through some things, and I found it brought some peace and some comfort at a time when know a lot of unknowns. And for many years I won't. It's not that I didn't believe in God or in Christ as my savior. I just did not find value in organized religion at the time. And now I find some peace and comfort in that. And what I was trying to get to Washington, I saw this a few days ago, and I think you would appreciate this. And I can't take credit for a man by the name Tim Keller. Put this down. It says, if we are able to say I disagree with you, but I agree with you on what is truly important, and you are my brother and sister, and we will serve and worship together, then we would model to the world a much needed picture of unity in christlike love. And I think that sums up some of what I read in your biography of saying how there is so much violence and so much polarization in this world right now. And I do think there is a loss of that, that people have lost that Christ like love in that one nation under God premise that, you know, if we got back to that, you know, as cliche as it sounds, what would Jesus do? What would Christ do? Maybe if we thought of that prior to saying something or acting, present company included, we would all be better off.

44:28 Amen. I like that quote. And yeah, I think we might be able to go out and save the world. But if I may, is there anything else about yourself that you would like to share?

44:55 You know, I think that the. I always found that the one thing that maybe this is why I put on this earth is that I might not look like other people, I might not sound like other people. I might not even have the same viewpoints as they do. But if I can, you know, find some sort of commonality with them where you can have civil conversations, even if it's about something trivial or something in the long scheme of things that's minute, then you can get into the bigger things because you form that commonality, that common bond, and you realize that there are certain things that you do share in common, so you can dialogue eventually about the bigger things. Going back to, you know, what my uncle used to say is he was in Washington in that circle for a long time. You don't talk about religion, money or politics over the Washington Redskins. You'll do very well in this town. Yes, maybe you don't lead with those types of things, but if you can find a common topic, a common interest with somebody else just to open up a dialogue and discussion, maybe you can venture into those larger conversations. Maybe you can get to that common ground. And I think people sometimes lead with the big thing rather than sitting down, leading with that small thing, finding that common commonality and then going from there. Because once you get to know people, it's a lot different than, you know, going to any tour, protest rally or whatever you want to call it, and just shouting, you know, you know, things, cameras back and forth, going into a bar restaurant and shouting out your political viewpoints and who agrees with me? But I find if you find something to bridge that gap, you know, or at least open with, you know, a lot of times you can, you know, get to those commonalities through those. I won't be cliche, say one small step, but it takes that. I have a passion. I enjoy smoking cigars. And I said, if the world worked like a cigar lounge, we'd all be better off because people from all walks of life come into those places. I've sat there and had cigars, people who don't have any money and people who are millionaires, and yet everybody seems.

47:42 To.

47:44 Be agreeable and get along in there because they will have the common love of cigars. But you can spark conversations by simply saying somebody, oh, what are you smoking this evening? And those can lead into great conversations. Several years ago, I was sitting in a place, and I was sitting next to a gentleman. We just barked up a conversation, and he was a teamster. I spent my entire life in college athletics at higher ed, and I said, anywhere else in the world, we probably would have never talked to one another. We'd have probably been buried our heads on the phone or been watching tv and just eating and never said one word to one another and never found that we had certain things in common in the certain differences. But it, the love of cigars got us to spark a conversation. It was a great conversation. If more people were willing to, you know, find that way to spark a conversation and find something, you know, in common to start it with, you never know. You know, what can, you know, transpire from there?

48:50 Exactly. Exactly.

48:53 So kind of a. I have a couple of, like, last questions to ask.

48:57 And you mentioned your love of cigars.

48:59 And I'm wondering, you know, if you.

49:01 Had to think about the things you.

49:04 Would share, you know, to start finding that common ground, what are the most.

49:08 Important elements about yourself that kind of.

49:13 Define who you are as a person beyond ideology? Or maybe ideology is part of it.

49:18 But how would you kind of narrow.

49:22 It down to the sum of who you are? Wow. That's a very philosophical question. I still think I wander around going, who am I going? Who am I? I truly love my friends, my family. I love this country. And the opportunity provided me with. I am a person of faith. I believe in treating people fairly, taking people at face value, and making that assessment on getting to know them, as opposed to just a blanketed one type of brush across, you know, based upon, you know, how they voted or based upon, you know, what, how they identify as. I'm just like everybody else in the world. You know, I've been blessed with certain things. There are certain things that, you know, I've experienced that are not so great. But overall, I really believe that I am grateful for being a very blessed and fortunate person. And if I can do anything in this world, it's maybe give somebody the opportunity to see that although people are different, they still are people that we all can peacefully coexist, and we could also have the opportunity to do some great things together.

51:25 Well, I couldn't have said it better. You said everything basically about me. So, so all those things. I feel exactly the same. I will, I will add that. And I'm up here this weekend today because I am with the Karsh Institute of Democracy, and this was recently formed. And I was asked if I would be on the advisory board. And I generally don't do boards anymore, but I thought that it would be an opportunity to really get into, to talk about democracy in this country and how I think it needs shoring up. I think people need to understand what a democracy is, and we need to protect our democracy. And I'm not referring to recent events. I'm not trying to get back there. But I'm just talking about, as you said, this is the greatest country in the world, and we have a lot of opportunities. But I think the things that really threaten a democracy are people who, people who have a problem. Have problems that are just insufferable, that, that. I think there are people in poverty. I think people who are not able to be educated, people who have mental health issues. I think there's a large undercurrent of people in this country that we're just not paying enough attention to. I think that's the threat to our democracy is that because you have, you've got these people that it's a powder keg of people who are just unhappy, poor and uneducated and struggling, really struggling. And that's how I think we can talk about. And democracy is definitely the, to me, the best form of government. And I've traveled to a lot of countries that were not democracies. And I really kissed the earth when I got back here. So I feel like that we need to talk about, yes, the infrastructure of democracy and to make sure that the infrastructure is still there. But I do think that what is really threatening to our democracy, and I think that's why there's violence. A lot of violence, is that we do have this undercurrent of people that we need to address that needs to be addressed. And it's not just the government that needs to address. I think religious organizations need to address this as individuals. We need to address this. One of my, one thing that I really like to do is to award scholarships, college scholarships. To me, that's the new civil right, because even for your generation, the cost of college right now is prohibited. It's really prohibited. And I see this because I have some scholarship funds and I sit on the committee where we evaluate the applications of the kids. And then, and these kids are working very hard to go to college. You know, they have straight a's and their SAT scores are high, and they're doing all these other things, but they come from poor families, and it's really a crime that they have to work so hard to get these scholarships. And I. And I. My. When my scholarship is awarded, they've gone through the financial aid office. Okay? And the financial aid office has found this grant and that grant, but it's a lot of loans. And I do think that's one of the things that I. That I'm about right now, is, first of all, talking about and working on ways to help other people who need it. But I also, and I am proud to say, I don't know if you have any affiliation with UVA, but UVA has a very good. Where they're working on a very good financial aid policy of any student that has the grades and the ability to come here, that they will find the money and not a bunch of loans, so they don't come out with $150,000 worth of debt. So I agree with everything you said in terms of what defines you, and I add that caveat.

58:34 So my last question is a short.

58:37 One, but you both mentioned the posterity element of this conversation. And so, for the record, because we do get to preserve these. Is there one piece of advice or an inspiration that you would share with your loved ones who may want to hear your voice and your perspective years and years from now? Well, I would just like my friends and family to know that I love them and that they have, they have made my life richer. They are really what's most important to me. And I will say my family actually would be priority number one. And I have very good friends as well. But in terms of the people that surround me every day is what keeps me going in all of this chaos.

59:58 I think you summarized that very well. My family and friends have enriched my life. And I think that when you mentioned that the decline in our society, and I think that's also because there's been a decline in that value of having family and friends and valuing life and valuing others. And when you stop having types of values, of having those types of relationships with other people, your family, your friends, it sort of impacts how you look at others. And when you see the decline in even families that are still very much, you know, intact today, how often do they sit down together and have meaningful conversations? Or is it running from one event to the next? How often do they get to share ideas? And this is what really has formed, formulated my life. I remember as a child, sitting at dinner tables and having political disagreements with my parents at young ages. Maybe that wasn't a thing for everyone did. But now, if you think about it, I'm sure people don't do this because they're guilty. I know with even more my own friends who have children, how often do they sit down to dinner with them because they're running to one event or the next, or they randomly eat at work, and you just see that. And I just know that, you know, I was blessed by the fact that I still grew up in a time where, you know, family sat down together and ate and could have meaningful discussions and that, you know, really solidified the relationships I try to build with other people as well.