Sandra Myles and Bradley Myles

Recorded March 18, 2021 Archived March 12, 2021 49:45 minutes
0:00 / 0:00
Id: ddv000558


Sandra Myles (74) interviews her son Bradley Myles (41) about his work in the anti-trafficking field.

Subject Log / Time Code

Bradley (B) speaks about how he got started in the anti-trafficking field.
B shares what he wishes others knew about human trafficking. He says there are two major types of trafficking: sex trafficking and labor trafficking. He says trafficking preys on vulnerability and it is a financially motivated crime.
B shares what he has learned thus far in his career: solving trafficking is going to take building coalitions everywhere. B says anti-trafficking work is about deep systems change and simple, single-sector solutions won't get far.
B discusses the trappings of ego in the anti-trafficking field.
B talks about the recent successes of the anti-trafficking field: strong laws to serve as a foundation for the work, a huge spike in awareness, and a large number of people who have been trained across different fields.
B talks about the gaps he sees in the anti-trafficking field: the discrepancy between sex trafficking and labor trafficking, how survivors are treated in the field, and funding.
B shares where resources are needed in the anti-trafficking field.
B shares what he is most proud of in his work: his work at Polaris, the partnerships he has built, and helping propose and create the National Human Trafficking Hotline.
B talks about the people who have had a big influence on him and his work. B tells the story of meeting a woman who was a victim of sex trafficking and who over 11 years was able to take control of her life and not let her past define her. He shares happily that the woman is now thriving.
B shares advice to someone thinking of entering the human trafficking field: get your motivations straight and get close to the issue.
B shares his parting words: there are many issues facing the planet and they are all connected; anti-trafficking is not uniquely special but it is an important part of the braid of macro-issues we deal with today.
Sandra (S) reflects on B's work and how it is connected to the work she did in domestic violence and women's issues. B says S was a major motivation to pursue anti-trafficking work.


  • Sandra Myles
  • Bradley Myles

Partnership Type

Fee for Service


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00:02 So hi. My name is Bradley Myles, and I'm 41 years old. And today's date is Thursday, March 18th, 2021. I'm recording from my house here in Washington DC and with my mom Sandra Myles and she is a participating in this interview with me.

00:33 Hello, I'm 74 years old. I'm calling from Northern Virginia at my home and Bradley is my son.

00:50 Alright, Mom. What do you want to do? You want to go go for it?

00:57 Okay, Brad. Could you describe the work that brought you here today?

01:05 Yeah, so I didn't miss this interview is part of the voices of Freedom project and it's it's creating the oral history of India trafficking work. And so the work that really brought me here today was

01:25 Basically, spending almost 20 years of work in the anti-human trafficking field.

01:35 20 years. How did you get started?

01:40 Well, I got started. It was fresh out of graduating from college.

01:51 And I had just attended as, you know, four years at Stanford and I was out there in Palo Alto.

02:03 And I was amazed at all the different classes that I learned in all the different topics that I learned. But one thing that didn't get taught at all in college at that time was anything about human trafficking. So I I remember distinctly when I learned about trafficking for the first time a couple months after college. I was shocked that I had heard about this at all after four years of college and I'm really glad now twenty years later. The subject is taught in colleges and it is taught in high schools and most people will come out of college and high school. Having some familiarity with this issue. But back in 2001-2002. You can go through a four-year college and not learn about it at all.

02:57 Will you mention that you you learned about human trafficking in a couple of months after college? How did that come about?

03:05 Yeah, so that that came about. So I

03:11 I really wanted to kind of follow in your

03:16 Your footsteps Mom. Working on violence against women issues.

03:24 And you had worked in domestic violence and introduced me to that issue.

03:34 And then I took that interest with me to college. And while I was in college, I was also introduced to other forms of violence against women knowing people who had experienced sexual assault and other types of sexual violence and violence when they were children. And so I left College wanting to work on violence against women issues.

04:02 And I wasn't sure where I would plug-in. I wasn't sure how I could be part of the domestic violence field or the sexual assault field. But I want up getting a job at an organization that did research and evaluation and I thought maybe supporting those issue areas from a research and evaluation perspective might be something that I could do as a white male and

04:32 It was through that first job with a group called caliber Associates a few months after college that colleagues in the office were talking about human trafficking and that was the first time I ever heard of the issue from those colleagues in the office.

04:53 Trafficking in the fight to end it.

04:59 I think that the, I mean, there's there's so much to say on that subject to mean one.

05:07 People have to know that it happens.

05:14 And people being coerced and forced into different forms of Labor.

05:20 So there's people in agriculture and in domestic work. And in carnival work whenever the elements of force fraud, and torsion, or present, and someone is working in some sort of job some sort of Labor or service. There's all these forms of Labor trafficking and then there's all these forms of sex trafficking where

05:44 Either children are involved and exploited in the commercial sex trade or adults are in the commercial sex trade through Forest Products version, but I think one big thing that people really need to understand about the issue is that there are these two major types of Labor trafficking and sex trafficking. And I think that

06:05 There isn't really an even split of a tension between those two types. I think that sex trafficking probably gets 95% of the attention 95% of the media stories, 95% of the federal prosecutions, 95% of the people who learn about the issue, learn about it through the lens of sex trafficking, and labor trafficking, kind of got the, the short end of the stick with 5% of federal prosecutions and 5% of attention. And so people come into the issue thinking. So it's only about you, no children being exploited in the sex trade or. So, it's only about other forms of sex trafficking and they're not really thinking about all the forms of Labor trafficking. So that's one big thing. I wish people understood is it really is Big types?

06:58 And I think the other big thing that people need to understand is that

07:03 Trafficking really Praise on vulnerability and it goes hand-in-hand with vulnerability. And so whatever is making someone vulnerable in the world, whether or not they are displaced from their home or whether or not, they are growing up in a community. That doesn't value the status of women or whether, or not they're growing up with abuse or other types of trauma in the home or whether or not, they've been removed from their family entirely and now they're in foster care.

07:39 Traffickers don't waste as much of their time trying to recruit people that have lots of protections and lots of people looking out for that and lots of cushion in their life. Traffickers are looking for people who are falling through the cracks, who are already traumatized, who are already vulnerable and who don't have systems and structures protecting them.

08:10 And so trafficking is not kind of everyone on Earth is equally at risk of it. Trafficking is much more weighted toward those who are the most vulnerable.

08:26 And so wearing his campaigns that are out there saying, you know, anybody on Earth might be a victim of trafficking. And one day, you might be walking down the street and someone's going to roll up beside you, and throw you in the trunk of the car and force you into the sex trade. Like, that stuff is just so off base, because it really is, kind of the structural factors of Oppression and discrimination and vulnerability, that are most predictive of who's going to experience trafficking.

09:01 And and so I I hope people really understand that.

09:06 Very direct tie to vulnerability. And I hope people understand the two major types and don't fall into the Trap of only thinking about sex trafficking.

09:20 And I guess the last thing is just too.

09:23 Keep front-and-center that this is a business and that people commit this crime. Not because they're obsessed with power or not because they're obsessed with controlling other person. It's because they want to make money or they want to try to save money and so at its core, this really is, I mean, yes, it's a human rights abuse and yes, it's a national security threat and yes, its economic issue and in some of different things. But really at its core trafficking is a financially motivated, profit, motivated crime.

10:00 Add. It's kind of a rational decision that a trafficker makes side. I'd say those are three things really to understand that score about this issue.

10:12 The second question here in the same kind of a way. What is the things that you learn from the work? You've done all of those things about vulnerability in about the two types in it and about that in. Those are all things that I've learned, but I'd say about like the how you doing the work.

10:38 I think that.

10:43 One thing that's very clear is that trafficking is a is a gigantic multi-faceted complex system.

10:53 And solving the issue, truly over the long term.

10:58 Well, take

11:01 Lots of different stakeholders, it'll take government taking action. It's going to take businesses taking action. It's going to take community members, taking action.

11:11 And so this isn't about kind of one heroic organization or one heroic individual. This is about teamwork and catalytic coalitions. And so I think the more people can kind of put their ego aside and put their need for credit aside or their need to celebrate what their one organization has done. And the more they can just think about being of service to the broader issue and how they can be a good collaborating partner to others.

11:52 I can learn to work well with others, I think that's a major lesson learned is that fighting trafficking is a team sport?

12:00 And then another major lesson learned is.

12:06 This is about.

12:11 Deep systems change and that Band-Aid Solutions won't solve this issue and kind of running in somewhere and thinking you rescued, Somebody by running out of a building with somebody or, you know, putting a very short-term like awareness poster up or something like that. This does take much more of a systems thinking lens to understand the totality of the problem and all of its moving parts. And what it all really take to solve it and kind of like, simple, single sector Solutions, won't really get very far.

12:50 So,

12:52 I'd say just understand the complexity understanding the enormity of it, understanding how entrenched it is, and this is something that goes back.

13:03 Centuries. And that? What we're dealing with today.

13:09 I didn't just.

13:13 Pop up overnight. This is the tail end of hundred-year-old legacies of discrimination, and racism, and structural policies and oppression. That's that's now trafficking is the symptom of all of those things and that, let's not be naive about what it would take to solve it. And mean, if you look at most major social change initiatives, you know, you think minimum 20 years. But sometimes issues takes 50 years, sometimes issues take 90 years. And so, I think that people need to manage their own expectations of how long this fight's going to take. I think, you know, you got to prepare yourself for 50 years worth of work and think about like what would ending trafficking by 2050 look like or something like that?

14:06 So if it's the piece about the longevity, it's the piece about the teamwork.

14:12 But since so many people get tripped up on their own egos of like who won this award or who got to Kino to conference or who got to be quoted in a newspaper article or who got invited to this like exclusive event at the White House. And those are all kind of the trappings of ego. And I certainly got swept up in some of that in the early years. I worked on this or at like feels great to have a crowd, giving you a standing ovation and it feels great to have people saying, you know, it's so amazing that you're doing this work, but over time. Hopefully most people learn to

14:55 Detach from those types of ego stroking and they just really boil it down to like, this is about the work. It's not about any of us. It's not about credit. It's just about getting this done. And how do people kind of take themselves out of the equation and make it more about solving the problem? And I think right now the track and field has

15:21 Too many big egos still in it that are getting in the way of real solutions.

15:26 Well, that's the next question which is what are some of the things that you've been aware of.

15:42 Yeah, I mean I'd say a few different things. I mean one.

15:49 There are really strong laws on this issue. And, you know, when you get introduced to other issue areas that are still struggling to pass a federal law or where the laws really aren't structured in the right way. One big SAS success of the drafting field is there are really strong laws on the books, in the US government and 50 state government said, lots of other countries around the world. This is an issue where the laws do provide, a very strong Foundation.

16:27 Santa Claus is one of them. I think other is is awareness. I mean, just like I was saying, earlier, about when I came out of college, I didn't learn about this unit, 20 years later. This is now part of the Lexicon. It's, it's part of world discussions. It's part of the United Nations structure. It's something that most major world leaders are aware of and creasing Lee. Most major Business Leaders are aware of. So they're there is a huge spike in Awareness now and it's rare that you'll talk to somebody who's not familiar with this issue.

17:05 The laws is why nights at wearing this is too. I think another major success is how many people have been trained on this issue? There's just been this giant training push for child welfare workers and for UPS drivers and Uber drivers and

17:26 Anyone working the front desk of a hotel and people working on Amtrak trains and Frontline law enforcement in patrol cars. Like those kind of standing assumption. Now that people who are the eyes and ears that might encounter trafficking victims, like truckers in the work of truckers against trafficking.

17:50 There are going to be people who have been trained and that there's this kind of Baseline familiarity with the issue healthcare workers being trained has been huge, the laws, awareness and training I think are probably three big success areas of the field.

18:13 What do you mean? What do you mean by trafficking response?

18:20 Men are still a ton of gaps. One Gap, is that sex trafficking labor trafficking? Split that I was talking about where sex trafficking is getting the Lion's Share of the attention and labor trafficking is getting

18:35 They'll overlooked even though most studies show that the largest form of trafficking around the world and in the United States is labor trafficking.

18:47 Silent kind of creating parody and attention between sex trafficking and labor trafficking is very much a gap.

18:56 I think how survivors are treated in. The field has been a gap. Although it's, it's slowly improving, the making sure that survivors are.

19:09 Central to the anti-trafficking field and Central Dandy tracking events and Central to Auntie trafficking strategies and they're not kind of tokenized. But the people have really gotten closest to this problem in the people have lived through. It have lots of valuable insights about what's needed to be done to solve it. And so Survivor leadership and survive empowerment, and just valuing the voices of survivors is still a gap. I think funding is a gigantic Gap. I mean you can't mean this is a hundred fifty billion dollar criminal Enterprise and you can't think that like 20 million dollars is going to solve that issue area. So

19:54 I do think some real robust. Inflection can a hockey stick inflection points of resources for this issue, is still a big gap because it hasn't really received big money yet. The way some

20:19 I mean, I think there's there's there's hundreds of different things that that need funding. I think there's

20:28 1A.

20:32 A whole Baseline of Survivor Services that's needed around the world. So that when someone does experience trafficking they're able to go to programs that help address their needs and help them rebuild their lives.

20:50 So there's a ton of work that needs to be done on the victim Services side. There's a ton of work that needs to be done.

21:01 Engaging in forming businesses and providing tools and training and resources and guidelines for how businesses can engage on this issue. So I put a big chunk of money towards victim Services. I put a big chunk of money towards business engagement right now, prosecution's on this issue are declining and the criminal justice system isn't really set up for

21:30 Holding all the perpetrators accountable. So I'd put a big chunk of money towards equipping strengthening the rule of law.

21:40 There's a ton of work around.

21:46 Survivor not just services, but how to really Empower survivors over the long term.

21:54 And job creation for survivors and and empowerment for survivors, and professional developments for survivors and Community Building among survivors. There's a lot of effort that's needed their ethical recruitment. Programs of like how Filipino workers are recruited to go. Be placed overseas and other jobs or how workers in one country. Migrate to another country for jobs. There's a lot of abuse and exploitation that happens along those

22:27 Ethical or those like recruitment Pathways and how to make those are proven Pathways free of predators and much more kind of ethical and responsible.

22:38 There's a lot of tech tools that could really catapult the issue of trafficking. So investing in Tech, but I think if there were let's say of all the billions of dollars of wealth that are not yet being deployed toward social change and they're kind of sitting in Donor, advised funds and they're sitting in billionaires portfolios or they've been pledged as part of the giving pledge, but the pledge hasn't really become real yet. Let's say there was a few billion dollars that was put into the anti-trafficking field. There. Be a lot of absorptive capacity among the ngos doing this work to absorb a lot of those dollars and really creates robust at the tracking response, around the world.

23:27 Let's look at you personally. Now, what what changes have you made in the community that you are most proud of?

23:40 I'm proud of contributing to one organization being built over time and the Ripple effects that that one organization has had and playing a role in building and strengthening the organization called Polaris. That's something that I'm proud of.

24:03 I'm proud of a lot of the lasting collaborations and relationships that I've dealt with people in the field, where people felt that.

24:17 I cared about the movement and the field as a whole and not just about myself or one organization that I cared about like.

24:26 Like, this isn't about me. Like, how do we move this entire agenda forward? So a lot of organizations, I think, felt

24:36 That I was a cheerleader as much for their success, as I was, for one organization success. So I'm proud of being kind of collaborative and and support of others.

24:49 And then I'd say,

24:52 Building and coming playing a role in seeding. The idea of the concept for the national human trafficking hotline and pitching that Vision to the US government.

25:06 And writing a proposal about it and staying up all night, one night and writing this proposal to the US government and saying, this is what a national human trafficking hotline, could really be and then having the US government take that proposal and agree with it and fund it and select Polaris to operate it. And then to be

25:31 Collaborating with colleagues to build the first team that did start answering the hotline calls and

25:38 Going around the country and trying to convince people to partner with the national hotline and trying to build a whole referral kind of tree down referral system for the national hotline convincing companies require the national hotline.

25:54 I think that was a big lift and I played only a small part in it, because it took hundreds of people to build what it is today, but building a establish National human trafficking, hotline that now victims can call. And that has served tens of thousands of victims and processed thousands of tips and all that. That's something that I'm proud of to.

26:21 But I think most of all, I'm just proud of

26:29 Being one of many that did this work and being part of the Coalition that is working on it. Not that it's about anyone of us, but that there's like a tribe of people a few hundred or a few thousand people that are working on this issue now and they're all kind of on this broader and attracting team and proud to be on that team. Like there's a, there's a lot of amazing progress that got done over the first twenty years of of the work.

27:11 You'll stick out in your mind or somebody that you work with that, had something to teach you or that you learn something from her that the Deep impression on you.

27:26 Yeah, so many I could think of multiple.

27:33 You know, I think one there's a woman named Tina front to now, runs an organization called Courtney's house. She was on staff with us, in on the founding team at Polaris. And she was really the one who taught all of us about.

27:56 Forms of domestic human trafficking that we didn't understand that much about. You know, she used to buy us all copies of the book pimp by Iceberg Slim and she'd say, you need to read this whole book and should take us out at 3 in the morning and we drive around and go look at the area of DC where there were pimps forcing women and girls in prostitution and shoot kind of teach us about

28:24 What the rules were and what the unspoken Dynamics were, that were happening there?

28:31 So she had an enormous influence on those of us on that team in the early days.

28:42 I'd say, you know, of of different people that were served by organizations. I think there's

28:52 There's definitely could have dozens that stand out and and remember a lot of their stories very fondly and very clearly.

29:06 What is it an interesting example, and I don't want to use her her real name, but there was, there was one woman who had been trafficked in Mexico and this transnational organized crime ring had their sights on her hand. While she was a minor.

29:33 They basically pimped her out and took control of her and brought her to the United States and we're forcing her into brothels and homes up and down the East Coast.

29:51 And so as a young teen, she was under the control of this International transnational, organized crime, ring. That was this very sophisticated.

30:07 Kind of had that the science of human trafficking kind of

30:12 Perfected.

30:15 And she was living this hellish life where she was definitely experiencing. What is defined in the trafficking victims protection act as a severe form of trafficking in persons. She was unequivocally a victim of severe forms of trafficking in persons, and she was being forced to have sexual intercourse with dozens of men per day.

30:42 In these residential homes.

30:45 And one night. We got a call from the police department and they said that they had done in operation at one of these residential brothels.

31:01 And they had encountered someone there, who they believed to be a victim.

31:06 And so me and a group of folks hopped in the car and it was late at night and we are driving out to the location and the police told us where to go. And we arrived at this house and neighborhood in DC and that was the first time we met her.

31:22 And she talked very clearly about what she had just gone through.

31:31 And she was very level-headed, and she was very kind of focused about how she wanted to see Justice Done For What had happened to her. And the way is that the transnational crime ring and taking advantage of her and exploited, her and abused her.

31:50 And said the police thankfully saw that she was a victim and didn't treat her like a criminal. They they released her into our services and they said she's not under arrest. You can take her with you.

32:07 And so she was living in our shelter for a while and and, you know, we were spending the days with her and we were hearing her, as she processed, what she had just gone through for the past few years and all that trauma and all that abuse.

32:27 And then she was so motivated to grow and improve her life, and she was hungry for different types of classes and hungry for referrals to school and hungry to learn English and hungry to absorb the things that she had been deprived of four years cuz she was just living in these indoor brothels and and kind of living this hellish existence and now all of a sudden she was out and was experiencing everything that's in the world and she just wanted to soak it all up.

33:08 And then, you know, when that time ran out for her to be living in our shelter. I remember, we found a Community member is kind of like a modern-day Underground Railroad. The Community member was like, yeah, she can come live at my house for a while. And so she was placed in a community members home, who is kind of a volunteer as part of our organizational Network and was familiar with the issues. She was enrolled in school and you know, her parents are back in Mexico. And so she was kind of here in the United States by herself. So she don't have anyone to go to parent-teacher conferences. There anyone to go to like school events in the evenings. And so some of us would go to those school events and we were kind of like her stand-in placeholder people in those events.

33:57 And eventually when law enforcement asked her, you know, would you like to collaborate and, and describe what happened to you and help us pursue Justice. She agreed and she spoke two different law enforcement entities, and

34:18 Provided some key information.

34:23 And this was all 10 or 11 years ago, you know, here we are in 2021 now, right? Fast, forward, 11 years and now she lives somewhere in the US. She has a full-time job. She's fluent in English. She's married. She's a daughter. She have a home. She the legal permanent resident in the US. She's not undocumented. She's in touch with her family. Back in her home country.

34:58 The entire transnational crime ring that she was part of that. She was victimized by a major parts of that crime ring have been dismantled through huge Federal prosecutions that happened over a six-year period between 2012 and 2018 and we're still in touch with her. And she still talks about those days that she met us for the first time when the police were in that brothel and the time that she lived in the shelter and the time that she lives in the community members home and the time that she went to school, and the time that we sat with her as she talked to law enforcement.

35:42 And it's just as you know, I mean there's there's thousands of stories like this and they had to track and field for the through lots and lots of different organizations and hundreds of stories. Like this through the organization that I worked at. But this one story is just this incredible story of like

36:00 All the different ways that, that path, that those different paths could have gone, but the path that It ultimately happened, was her really kind of

36:13 Being in the driver's seat and taking control of her own future and not letting what she went through. Define her and now thriving and happy and having the life that she dreamed of that. It's that's kind of one story that stands out in my mind and she reached out just a few months ago. Then we were in touch and she was kind of getting updates on how she's doing and sent a photo of herself with her kid. And from that moment, seeing that photo with her, and her kid thinking back to the moment. We met her for the first night when she was held in this brothel right. After the police raid, just a pretty amazing 11-year Journey.

37:06 Well, that is really moving and impressive.

37:14 Said that they wanted to make a difference in the field of traffic. And what advice would you give them?

37:24 I mean, one thing I would say is.

37:28 Get your motivations, right and really think about like why you want to do this work and how much of it is about your own image of yourself as a hero, or your own image of yourself is doing some amazing thing versus how much of you really been able to, just make it about the work and make it about supporting survivors and make it about coming up with social change Solutions. Like how much is it really about solving the problem versus how much is it about

38:04 You're need to work on this problem and be celebrated as such.

38:10 So I think that's, that's one piece of, you know, if you're going to come do this work.

38:16 Come out it with the right head and heart and and motivation and intention. Don't come out at of like, oh my gosh. I'm going to be the next William Wilberforce. So, you know, I'm going to be the next Harriet Tubman or whatever else like get your own attachments of grandeur, kind of

38:37 Taking care of this one and I'd say the other That's essential and in Bryan Stevenson from Equal. Justice initiative talks about this a lot is get proximate get close to the issue. You know, when he wanted to understand death row. He went to go talk to people on death row and he actually went inside the jails and and met with people on death row. I think that the people who really know what they're talking about in the end of trafficking field, are the people who've gotten the closest to the issue.

39:14 So, if you're going to talk about,

39:17 Certain forms of trafficking. How close have you gotten to those forms of trafficking Nike? Have you stood inside those buildings? Have you, you know, really really understood the inner workings of that Network? Because if you're kind of talking about it from an arm's length than a few degrees removed, you risk, not really understanding the essence of the issue that you're working on.

39:44 And I feel like through a lot of the on-the-ground work that that we did.

39:51 I felt myself.

39:56 Learning much more deeply about what it was that we were tackling the closer and closer. I got to the issue.

40:05 The flip side of that is, is that like an hour traffic Kings of like a, a blazing bonfire. If you get close to it, you're going to get scorched. You're going to get burned. You're going to experience secondary, trauma, you're going to have challenges in your life because you're kind of going closer and closer to the Flames, but the

40:29 The flip side is if you don't ever get close to the flames, you might not really understand certain depths of the issue. So I'm generally in favor of advice for people, starting to work on this issue. Figure out a way to get close to it, you know, spend time directly with survivors, you know, volunteer as a an advocate in a hospital that accompanies people after a sexual assault.

41:04 Work in a shelter. Join an organization that is doing direct Outreach to talk to people who are invulnerable positions and really understand the the essence of the problem that you're seeking to solve before you form opinions of what it will take to solve it. So I'd say wine is, is really get your, get your motivations right to is get proximate and get close to the issue. Even if that involves.

41:42 Inconveniencing yourself and and kind of things getting a bit messy.

41:48 And then also I'd say, you know, prepare to come at this with a collaborative, teamwork mindset where you're there to contribute and you're there to kind of be of service, but you're not there to make it all about you.

42:07 And, and find ways to celebrate colleagues. And, and be part of a team that has some thoughts.

42:18 Wow.

42:20 Do you have any parting words that you like to say about this comment or your relationship to it, or?

42:29 What you'd like to see in the future, I think there are there are.

42:40 Dozens of layered and interconnected.

42:47 Interwoven issues facing the planet and they're all tied together. They're all braided together.

43:01 They're all linked to each other.

43:05 And you can't just kind of separate out this issue from that braids.

43:16 You know, there are traffickers that in committing trafficking are damaging the environment than burning down forests. And in a polluting, the ocean.

43:32 And then not at all these rental facts, right? So this issue is, it's not special in the, you know, it's not somehow different van.

43:47 All the other interconnected issues of the world, but it's definitely part of that braids and it's an important part of that braids and as people are doing work on International Development and safe, migration and child welfare policy, and violence against women. And so many of these other kind of like major kind of macro issues. This issue is interwoven into a lot of that.

44:26 Answer. It's a really important issue to work on.

44:30 Especially from that intersectional lens.

44:35 And this issue is, it's a marathon, not a Sprint. It's, it's going to be another 30 or 50 years of work. It's not be naive about that. And I think the field is, you know, he's our 20-year reflection interviews. I think A lot's been learned in 20 years. So, you know, if the first 20 years were like the proof-of-concept, trial-and-error. What works, what doesn't work.

45:11 Now we're at a point where we figured out what works and we figured out. These are the things that could really

45:23 Demonstrate results and reducing forms of trafficking and slavery is about taking what, we know works and going big with it and seeing that play out and lots more locations. And and and the the buzzword of scaling it.

45:43 I think that the chopping Fields going to have a really interesting next 20 years, but a lot of it is going to depend upon whether or not the resources are mobilized to really be there. And if the field can continue to

46:03 Create a shared movement. That doesn't, that's not at war with itself. And that's not different people kind of jockeying for power and credit and all of that. I didn't give people create a true kind of shared movement with systems change thinking with a long-term goal in mind with a coherent strategy with the resources to actually really do it. I think there could be some really exciting worked on over the next twenty years and excited to be a part of it in different ways.

46:47 What are some of your thoughts? Mom? What are your thoughts on?

46:52 Me doing a T Trucking work for 20 years.

46:58 Well, I know that it's very hard work.

47:02 And there are a lot of disappointments in Nevada.

47:11 What was that? I'll keep going. You really.

47:25 Got a long way to building a coalition that you talked about.

47:33 And do you see this as

47:38 Related to you, doing the domestic violence work. When I was in high school and you see how this connects to that years later.

47:49 I mean when you mention that this is your husband, an issue with many different pieces of the Rope woven together. It is I mean positive domestic, violence racism of any kind of exploitation abuse.

48:08 The difference between the way that people's use the roles of men and women. All of that is so inextricably different strands inside the because you kind of have to work on it all together in one day.

48:29 One Big Blob. I agree.

48:33 Let me know, I think that you were a major motivation for me to do this work, Mom.

48:39 And you introducing me to these issues in high school?

48:46 Help you open my eyes to parts of.

48:56 Our neighborhood that I didn't know existed. And that there was domestic violence and a lot of the homes that are aware around us. And that Awakening helped me then think about what other social issues were not aware of and, you know, was I kind of blind to and then, once your eyes are open to that, then you start to see the connections. And then I kind of went down that path. So that's I think where it all started.

49:26 I'm glad that I provided you with some motivation and some knowledge. But you you went off with you took that what little I gave you and your

49:41 All right. I think we're, we're, we're wrapping up.