Sarah Crowell and Marc Bamuthi Joseph

Sarah talks about the Destiny Arts Center and the work they do. Marc: "It feels like a dangerous moment, in that our comfort with the vocabulary almost leads to a kind of slumber because you can use the language of white supremacy, you can talk about wanting to be anti-racist but it's almost not catalytic in the way that it should be. The disease of white supremacy shouldn't be something that is codified by a word that starts to feel comfortable in people's mouths. If you feel comfortable saying anti-racist even anti-black, it shouldn't ever feel comfortable. There should be a lump in your throat. Your words should have jagged edges so they don't feel right in your mouth. They should feel insane as it does for the person who hears them."

Sarah shares about the teenagers she works with and finding joy within systems of oppression. "If you can still be joyful understanding that to me is evolution." Sarah talks about the nonprofit she runs and the deep responsibility she feels and talks about making the decision to cancel a performance due to coronavirus.

Marc talks about using the phrase Black Lives Matter and remembers a moment where they talked about black life only in the context of death and loss. "What about joy in the living body and how that matters? The matter of the beating heart?"

Sarah shares about George Floyd and how that ignited Black Lives Matter movement. Sarah remembers thinking, "Wow, my life matters that much to this entire planet?" when she found out about the thousands of people who were gathering to protest. Sarah remembers parents of the students telling them that if it were anything else they would not be allowed to leave the house but because of how important these protests were the students were allowed to go out and protest.

Marc talks about the many black lives that were murdered starting with Rodney King. Ahmaud Arbery, George Floyd, Breonna Taylor. He talks about how it was clear that this egregious violence was unprovoked then provoked the world to a different kind of action.

Marc talks about the multi-generations that exist at Destiny Arts Center.

Sarah shares advice her friend shared with her: "The things we need to have a healthy life are: We have to honor our elders, honor our bodies - move our bodies every day. That's including eating good food and we have to do things that are small with our hands."

Sarah talks about working with Marc on a huge project together - the Black (W)hole Project. Marc talks about community and how it has to be personal and compassionate between individuals and then they can take on a larger project. Marc: "But first, how are you? I love you. Let's get our thing right. And with our thing we can make the world just a little bit better."

Sarah: "I love that our conversation is themed on joy because I feel joy in your presence." Marc and Sarah

Marc: "We're out of time now but let's do something small together soon."