Sarah Kelley and Susan Perry

00:00 Today is July 25, 2022. We're here with Susan Perry and Sarah Kelly, and we are starting off the conversation by asking why both of these ladies wanted to be here today and wanted to have this conversation. Whenever you're ready.

00:17 So I don't remember. I think it was something in person. People were talking about it, and I signed up, but I don't remember. I don't remember where. I thought it was kind of interesting, so I said, you know what? Why don't I do it? You know, it's an important. I thought it was kind of an important program, so.

00:40 And for me, serving as the Charlottesville clergy collective president, they, I'm assuming your leader, came and spoke to us about the program, and it sounded interesting, so I was willing to participate. Wonderful. And if you guys want to go ahead and read each other's bios that I put in the chat. Oh, gosh.

01:07 Sarah is a pastor. Married 63 years. She was born and raised in Charlottesville Sarah loves preaching, songwriting, and cooking.

01:24 Am I to read now? Yes. Susan was born in New York, spent her first ten years in Queens, and then moved to her parents hometown of Green Neck and Long island. She was in theater until she became interested in juvenile justice. After doing playwriting programs in group homes, Susan earned a master's in criminal justice at Rutgers in New New Jersey, and was a probation officer before moving down here in 2000. She worked in a group home here before working at Flu Van Correctional center for Women until 2013. Since then, Susan has been volunteering and community organizing, mostly concerned with criminal justice issues. And the reason I say, because when Flu Vander Women's Correctional center opened, I was a Bible teacher there until the COVID came.

02:26 And so long you was doing it. Oh, we probably passed each other.

02:32 Yeah. And as far. And also at the regional jail since 1976.

02:40 Oh, my goodness.

02:42 So Covid cut them both down, and I've not been back, you know, since then, every time we give it to go back something else, the COVID comes back again, so. But that's just coincident on that.

02:55 Wow.

02:57 I was also a medical officer at the regional jail as a nurse there. So that's just something we identify with criminal justice in that sense.

03:08 Wow, that's a long time. You did that. That's amazing.

03:12 Well, I am almost 82 years old, so I got a little few years there.

03:22 So I was curious about pastoring. Where do you preach?

03:26 I preach. I started a ministry in 1985, and the name of the church is faith, hope and love, International Healing and Deliverance center. We are located out on route 29 going towards Lynchburg south going towards Lynchburg And so it's been almost 40 years. The ministry has been active and recognized we are non denominational, but it hasn't made any difference to anyone. I've been invited quite a few places across faith lines as well.

04:02 Oh, that's wonderful. And you. And you work with the. You're the president of the interfaith. What is it?

04:10 The Charlottesville clergy.

04:12 Clergy.

04:12 Charlottesville collective. So I started my presidency this past January.

04:18 Wow, that's really impressive. And a little. Very, very impressive. It's a lot of work. You guys are active.

04:28 Yes, it is. And we have quite a few projects going on right now, so I'm thankful that they considered me. I was a little hesitant about it, but at the same time, I just say, God opens doors no man can close. So he opened the door. Evidently, he feel I'm able to do it. So.

04:50 Oh, wow, that's really impressive. That's really amazing. It's awesome. Wow. Oh, wow. I just wanted to jump in really.

05:00 Quick and pose a question. So what is your first memory of politics? For me, probably the first memory of thinking about politics or anything else was when it was time for the segregation of schools. And, you know, I was just realizing then about politics, I guess you say, and the whole bit, I wasn't even aware of discrimination, believe it or not. You know, you're just in a certain situation, you don't pay any attention. You're so used to it. First time I ever went to Rotunda, I was seven, eight years old. Here in Charlottesville. Right there. Right here in Charlottesville, Virginia. Jefferson. But I never had set foot on those grounds. We weren't allowed to when we were younger, and I never was interested after that. But then I was asked to do the blessing for the memorial that they have, the enslavement memorial. It was the first time my feet had ever touched that. But as far as politics are concerned, when the school. Integration with schools.

06:19 How old were you and what happened?

06:22 Did you school close? No, actually, yes, schools closed here in Charlottesville rather than to be integrated. But I ended up going to school with my mother at that time. I've been raised. I was raised by my great grandmother here in Charlottesville, Virginia, born here as well. But I was sent to Washington then, and so it was a better transitional.

06:48 Smoother so that Washington, DC.

06:51 Yes, it was all white school, but at the same time, I really didn't have a lot of problems there. I guess we were just more used to it. I'm assuming. But I ended up in Washington, so I didn't have to go through all the things that shallow sewer went through.

07:09 Wow. That's amazing. Holy moly. Was your home. Did you have to move or anything? Did they.

07:17 Were you part of that? No, my grandmother, my great grandmother, who raised me, sent me to be with my mother because of what was going on here, so I just went to school there. But then in the summertime and holidays, I was back in Charlottesville.

07:34 Wow.

07:34 And so my 10th through the 12th grade, I went back to Washington this year and then came back to Charlottesville after school, and I've been here ever since.

07:45 So you graduated in DC. That's incredible.

07:49 Yeah. Eastern high school. Yes. I graduated at 16. Really? By the time they got through transferring me back and forth, I had more than enough credits, so didn't need but two in summer school. So they just let me go to summer school, and I finished at 16, but I didn't graduate till that February. I was 17 because I was 17 in January.

08:12 Wow. That's an amazing story. Well, I. I don't know. I think my. My parents fighting. My mother was raised Republican, my father Democrat. So they just would argue. But. But it was about stupid things. It wasn't really. It wasn't really substantial. I was in my middle school, and then I started. I grew up in a very different environment, a jewish community that was super liberal. And once the Vietnam war came up, a lot of us were, you know, protesting the war. I have some guilt about that now because, you know, the vets weren't treated well. We didn't take care of the vets, which is, you know, just kind of sad. And I lived in a community where, you know, I was, you know, it was. It was pretty affluent. We weren't shopkeepers, but. But obviously privileged. And everyone I knew went to college, so a lot of the people that I knew got, you know, deferments. I didn't know. I only had one cousin that went to Vietnam, so I'm pretty. Was pretty sheltered that way, so. But I did a lot of, you know, marching, and we had some really good moratoriums, and I was brought up to always vote, you know, I couldn't wait to vote. I think. I think I. I remember going to political meetings, you know, some of the candidates, you know, when I was in high school, and then. So that's really where I started getting interested in politics, I guess, because the Vietnam War. And we have another question.

10:14 What are the questions? I don't have. Can't get these.

10:31 Okay.

10:32 Yeah. You sound.

10:34 Who was the most influential person for you? I'm having a hard time with that for some reason. Uh oh, yeah.

10:47 With me, I would say my 7th grade teacher misses Brant. And it was something as simple as, you know, we came as a black person, we didn't know how to speak to one another. So things like, you're not going to ever be anything your mama wasn't nothing. A whole lot of negative things were given and spoken mainly because they were spoken to them when they came up through slavery and the whole bit. And so to come up out of that negativity was a difficult thing for me. But misses Bryant, we had an assignment on insects and I had my assignment, I decided to do it on an ant. And just at the time that I got ready to pass my paper in, a little antennae ran across the window sill and I mashed it down and put some scotch tape over it and she said, oh, you're so creative. And, you know, she just carried on about my, you know, I never had anyone to carry on about anything that I did. And she just took me under her wing and just began to show me, you know, give me positive feed, I guess you could say, very. Just changed my whole prospect about life. She really did.

12:07 Oh, wow.

12:08 My 7th grade teacher.

12:12 That's fantastic. Holy moly. Well, I get, I guess I have to say, my mother, she was, I don't know, difficult in a lot of ways and came from a really kind of bad background and she was tough and, but when my brother left, he ended up moving to California. And she started to say, because of family issues and stuff, and she started saying, I really don't want to lose my son. So she started working really hard on changing and she worked really hard in therapy. She did all the doctor's assignments, so she really kind of transformed herself. She really wasn't the same person. And so I think that was really inspiring me in terms of, you know, it's possible to change. I mean, it really is. So, you know, that was probably the most important lesson that I learned. But I don't, I can't think of anyone in my younger years that made, you know, that kind of had that kind of inspiration that you had for me as teacher.

13:22 Yeah. Because on top of that, I just loved Florence Nightingale, the nursing. And so she, she told me, you know, you got the kind of personality to be a nurse, you know, concerned about people the whole bit. But then when I decided I wanted to go into nursing, you know, here in Charlottesville, they didn't even start allowing black nurses into the nursing program until around 1970 or so. But I ended up taking the LPN training that was offered us here in Charlottesville. And they finally recognized us as the hidden nurses back in 2018 at the university. And we are now in the alumni at the university. But that also led me to take the chaplaincy program at university. I was the first black there to take the chaplaincy program. So they recognized me back in 2018 as well for being first black chaplain at UVA.

14:28 Wow. So the chaplaincy program, was that for you to be able to go into, like, hospitals and things like that? Is that that same program?

14:36 Yes. Yes. I took. Actually, it was a nurse that actually, I guess you would say, influenced me or intimidated me. One. I was praying for one of the patients, and she said, maybe you should be a chaplain instead of being a nurse, you know, being very smart. And I said, well, thank you. I had never thought about that. He went right up the same day and checked in, and Vern Mack said, well, you know, we're filled up. We won't be able to do it this year. Then he said, wait a minute, I'll just squeeze you in. And so I ended up. I came right back down to the flow, and I told her, I said, thank you for that persuasion, because now in the chaplaincy program, and although I was being smart about it, but at the same time, I was the first black chaplain at UVA.

15:30 As late as 2018.

15:34 Now, that was in 1987.

15:39 Okay, you did the chaplain program. Okay.

15:42 Yeah, that was in chaplain program, but the nursing program was back in 1963. But 2018 is when university recognized the black nurses, hidden nurses.

15:55 Wow, that's really inspiring. Boy, you've seen a lot. Yeah, I really. It's really. That's super inspiring.

16:08 Wanted to jump in and pose a question. I know you both have done work in correctional facilities and in the the prison system in this area, and just wanted to ask, you know, what has your been your experience with criminal justice? And, you know, how can you guys share some ideas or share some differences between that?

16:29 Well, I was a case management counselor at Fluvana, and I loved my job. I loved the women, but I didn't get along with the super superiors. So I, you know, I mean, I don't mean. I don't know how to say this, but what I really would say is that I am a New Yorker. You know, I have a mouth. And I would start emailing up the chain of command, which, as you know, there is like, you can't do that. So, you know, when they made just really ridiculous decisions. I couldn't really stop myself, so they really try to keep me. I have to give them enough credit. I mean, I had to be written up a lot for them to finally get rid of me. But I think I'm probably the only person that got they fired, you know, for caring too much rather than the other way around. But. So. But I'm heartbroken. I love my job, and, you know, I did love the work. And, you know, as you know, it's a difficult place. It's, you know, it's the. It's tough, you know, the women, I don't know, that's your. What was your experience of working with them?

17:49 You know, I was about to teach you down there. Plus, I started the choir down there, and I missed. I missed them more than anything because, I tell you, we had some singers down there. And while the chaplain was there, I also took the late chaplaincy program. So I was also a late chaplain, chaplain there. And one of the young ladies that I instructed in Bible study, I hung up with her until. Not until. But three years ago. She end up. Now she's the pastor over one of the Methodist churches. Once she got out one of the Methodist churches in Harrisonburg.

18:28 Oh, that's so exciting.

18:30 I think it's John something. I can't remember the name of it, but, yeah, she's a pastor now. She studied up underneath our ministry and ministry that came out of Washington, DC, and now she's pastoring over there. So I feel good. I've just always wanted to work with the criminal system. I knew how unjust it was for my people, but. And quite naturally, yeah, I got through a lot of trouble with my mouth, too. But every time they believe it or not, even in the medical. As a medical officer in the jail, they didn't want me to minister to the people. I was a minister there, but everyone ended up either fired or dead or whatever it was, and I'm still part of that. So they tried to get rid of me, but they end up the ones not there, so.

19:32 Wow. Wow. Yeah, it really is unjust. I mean, it was so mean. I mean, the length of sentences is just. Just terrifying.

19:45 Yeah.

19:45 And, you know, I would go to the academy and do, you know, do a lot of training, and they would say, oh, you need, you know, I don't know how many carrots, like five carrots, you know, to one stick. And they never gave the women any carrots, you know, they didn't. It was like. It was insane, you know, nothing, nothing. They couldn't work towards anything positive. And you think of stuff that didn't cost any money, like having Bible study outside. Right. I mean, that would cost nothing.

20:18 Yeah.

20:18 You know, things like that. So it was just. The hypocrisy was really more than I could. It was really hard for me to take and. Yeah. So you were a nurse in the jail? For how long were you a nurse in the jail?

20:36 I was in until I went into full time ministry, which, let me see, I was a nurse staff for five years at the Avenue regional jail here in Charlottesville, where I also was the Bible study teacher there as well. Yeah, I just. I think my heart just went out because I knew the mistreatment and so just. I don't know.

21:05 Yeah, I mean, the jail is, you know, really upsetting on another level is that some of the. Some of. So many of the folks there weren't even charged yet. You know, they're just there, you know, I mean, it's just. It's just horrendous. You know, it's just really sad. And they. Yeah, so, I mean, I really appreciate you doing something in the volunteer program. When I first, I actually, when I came. Moved down here, I interviewed at the. At the women's prison under the first. The first warden. But then there was. I was really excited, but they had a cutback and they, you know, they couldn't hire. And so it took a number of years later for me to get back in there. But she was really wonderful about getting a great volunteer program going. But it got harder, didn't it? I mean, some of the. Yeah, yeah. I mean, some of them is just awful to the volunteers.

21:56 Yes. It was good for me that Covid came because, you know, I got into a point where I had to walk with a cane, and they were so mean about the cane, you know, and quite naturally, that would mean I have to. They would have to roll me down in the wheelchair rather than me. Carter came and things and I told her I just wasn't going to put any of the inmates doing additional anything, you know, as far as that was concerned. But.

22:26 And that's a long way from.

22:28 Yeah, that's right. To be pushing me. So they just. That was their way of finding some excuse. But most of the time, it was very unkind. But I just kept focus on the fact that there were people depending on me to come for if we didn't have Bible class, if it wasn't no more than just them being able to express what was going on with them.

22:53 That's right.

22:54 That's right.

22:55 I mean, that was the greatest thing about it. I mean, I guess, particularly in the beginning, that the volunteer was so extensive and so rich.

23:04 Yeah.

23:05 And then they just, you know, made it more difficult for people. Yeah. I'm still in contact with June Clifford, lay chaplain from. From Fluvanna. We're working on trying to get an inmate who's been there most of her life out. It's. It's. It hasn't been. It's been a rough road.

23:23 Well, rough road. Success to that. I don't know if you knew chaplain Perry or not, but, you know, she's at the. Yeah, she's at the university. So I ran into her the last time I had to get an ion infusion, I ran into her.

23:38 Yeah, I ran into her because I'm a cancer patient there.

23:43 So am I in that sense. I just got. They just. My last ct scan was last week, and so now they give me just a year. I don't have to go back for a whole year.

24:00 That's wonderful. Yeah. So I'm in. I'm in the Ob gyn. I had ovarian cancer. It's been 15 years, though.

24:08 Okay.

24:09 Yeah.

24:10 And mine on my right kidney, but I had cancer twice in my throat and so on. Yeah. And I said then, I know God didn't call me to preach his word and then have cancer trying to take over my throat. If you notice, I talk. I'm a little hoarse today, but, I mean, I talk through. No, I would never louder than I did before then, because I was just determined that I was going to make it through that.

24:38 That's just inspiring.

24:40 But with the LPN training, I think just going through so much, really, with that, I ended up for a while in computer programming. I took that program, but then I realized, no, I am not the machine. I'm human oriented. The money was excellent, but I was so unhappy because I, you know, I'm people oriented. Definitely people oriented.

25:06 Yeah, me, too. Yeah. I understand completely. So you're a full time pastor. That's exciting, too. Yes.

25:14 I love. What if. I wish I had known it earlier years, but at the same time, I'm thankful I'm at the place now, like I said, be eight or two in January and really training someone for a replacement, because I hate to think that I'll ever have to give it up, but I know I'm getting too old for some of the things that need to be done. I don't want it to wither out, so.

25:42 Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, keep doing things, but do things cut back is, like, the ideal thing, you know, so you don't burn out, but you keep going. Yeah, yeah.

25:56 That's why I was even just thinking, I said at 81, I've been selected as a president of something because, I.

26:07 Mean, I run into that organization, and, you know, some of the work I do, I know, you know, some of the folks. And, I mean, it's very. It's very cool.

26:14 Yeah.

26:15 Really amazing. Wow. And I know you guys do a lot. I mean, you really. You really. All of you try to make such a difference. You really do. It's really inspiring.

26:29 That's why we want to come together, you know, just recognizing that unity is important if you're going to get anything done.

26:39 That's right. That's right. So that's real. Yeah. And that's one thing that I was brought up. I'm jewish. I was brought up in reform Judaism, and making a difference was very important, and I'm very grateful for that. You know, that was in terms of politics, you know, you can talk about politics. Politics is involved and, you know, caring about other people, ideally, obviously. Right. And very much, you know, the. You know, the message that I got growing up, you know, that in Hebrew, the word Tzedakah is justice and charity. It's the same word. So I'm grateful that I was brought up with that, with that value, you know, I just. Grateful.

27:30 Yeah. We sort of came up that way, too. And then I'm in a. I don't know if, you know, the organization impact.

27:40 Yeah, absolutely.

27:41 Yeah. Cause I'm part of that as well, because I truly believe in justice. I know. Even as a small child, my great grandmother used to think that, well, you know. Cause, you know, didn't mind feeding. She was cooked anyway. And you carrying all these sandwiches, honey, you're gonna be fat as you could be. But what I was doing was carrying it to some of the ones that didn't have anything to eat, you know, I knew they didn't have anything to eat, you know. So I just always have had that sort of mercy or justice, I guess you say. One. One thing is to be fair. Just.

28:16 Yes, fair.

28:16 Just be fair.

28:18 Right. And I think it's been very challenging in my spiritual life to realize that you can't count on justice. There is no necessarily justice. And you kind of have to do the best you can in the midst of, you know, things not being fair.

28:34 Yeah. I watched my great grandmother go through. She took what they call taking and ironing or taking and washing. And she was a cook. She cooked at Dollar Madison Inn here in Charlottesville, Virginia. They finally closed up in 1965. But she would cook three meals, come home in between meals, you know, do washing and ironing and the whole bit. And I just never forget some shirts being brought back to her because it was some circle around the collar. And I knew she had been on that scrub board all morning, really, after she had cooked. And I told the lady, I said, tell your husband to wash his dirty neck. And didn't want my grandma don't have to scrub her knuckles off. I got the worst. Got the worst spanking for that. But I realized then I said, no, I'll never be under nobody's clothes, not even my own. Thank God for Perma press.

29:37 That's right.

29:38 Yeah. So just to. You know what? I just didn't like that injustice. And I saw her mistreated when I. We used to go to Atlanta City every year. That was just her little vacation time. We'd go on the bus, and I drank some water out the fountain. That was the wrong fountain. And the man cussed me out as a child. And my grandmother, she tried to offend me quite. To defend me, quite naturally. And they put us out the bus station, but we were able to catch the bus, but they put us out the bus station. And just to think that she went through that because of me, that. It still hurts me when I think about it. I didn't mind cursing me, but just to hear him talk to her like that because of something I did. As far as drinking water, believe it or not, I'm not a water drinker today. I think it was very traumatic, and I'm just realizing how to. How much with that. But it gave me a certain determination and a certain, I don't know, maybe rebellion because I was the first female or the first black female in about 13 different areas here in Charlottesville, so.

30:59 Oh, wow.

31:00 Good for you. Yeah, no, you're not going to, you know, I'm not going to go through that. I'm not going to, you know, so maybe, I guess there's some form of an activist that I'm not realizing until I'm talking to you right now.

31:14 Oh, you are here. That's really remarkable. Started as a little girl.

31:20 Yeah. Just watching somebody else doing justice to someone else, especially when I caused it.

31:28 Yeah, but you didn't mean to. I mean, that's just so tragic. The whole thing is just so awful.

31:33 No, really awful.

31:35 Yeah, no, I. You know, I didn't realize I'm a New Yorker, but I did live in Jersey. Before I came down there, I didn't know that was the case in some place like atlantic city.

31:45 Well, it didn't happen in Atlanta City. It happened here in Charlottesville before we got to Atlanta City.

31:50 Oh. Before even.

31:51 Oh, my God. And so, yeah, it was Greyhound trailway bus station. And believe it or not, it was a white and colored sign. And so I just remember I said, well, you know, let me, um. You know, I drank the wrong fountain. I didn't know nothing about drinking. I was five years old. I didn't know anything about the right or wrong fountain, except I know the one that I was giving a drink. I was dirty looking. So that's why I went to the other one. Not because of any signs or anything, but, boy, well, if you're five, you.

32:23 May not be able to, you know, read the book.

32:26 I mean, I didn't understand any of that. And when he got the cursing of me, I didn't even know what was going on, what I had done wrong. And then when my grandmother heard it, and she tried to defend me, only for him to just. I mean, just names turbulent, and they put us out, and on top of that, I got a spanking.

32:47 Right, right.

32:49 I didn't understand any part of that. And so they always have a bottle of water. They tease me at the church all the time. They always have a bottle of water. Once the water pastor, they know I'm not going to drink water. But I think it did leave a certain.

33:06 I'm sure it did. Because five is when you remember stuff, you know, earlier, you don't really remember. But five is probably one of the most impressionable times in our lifetime, you know, because it's something that we don't forget. Yeah, it's really hard to remember stuff before five, but five is really. That's just.

33:28 I think August 12 brought it back up again, though. Someone had asked me impact, when we had a meeting at impact, and they asked it, I think there was still, you know, precious here in Charlottesville. I say, are you kidding? It's just subtle. But then when August 12 came, it showed that, no, they. It wasn't subtle anymore. Was showing his ugly face.

33:51 Right. And the thing is, is that, you know, we folk, and especially me, coming down from the north, really ignorant about the trauma of, you know, dismantling whole neighborhoods. I mean, the whole thing. And, you know, Uva, what they did that was so, you know, awful with the whole, you know, I forget the term, but, you know, saying that people are born that way, I forget what it's called. But they were really in the forefront.

34:20 Eugenics accept.

34:22 Thank you. Yeah, I mean, there was a forefront of that. So there's so much history that's never really been rectified. You know, income inequality, health care, all of it. It's just never been. You know, it's.

34:38 Yeah, because our husband's home. Our husband, but my husband's home, which we've been married 63 years, but his home. His father's home, not his home. Well, it was his home, but that ended up destroyed during the time of, they said, the vinegar hill reconstruction, or whatever you want to call it. And he had built that home. And if everyone would see the home that he built after that, that's over on Rose Hill Drive. He was an excellent builder, and to have it torn down and not even given the amount of money that should, you know, to even rebuild just that in itself, you know, was trauma to it. Our family.

35:27 And there's never been appropriate reparations. You know, we know about it now, and no one's done any reparations, because if that house was still there, it'd be worth. I mean, the whole family would have benefited from generational wealth. I mean, that's where a lot of us had our wealth was one of the tragedies of profound racism that we have, is that a lot of our wealth came from real estate. And if one of the shocking things. My dad served in world War two in Korea, and we were able to get a house with a GI bill, and I thought it was government run. I didn't realize it was bank run. And so veterans of color didn't get that benefit. I mean, it was just one of the saddest things, because I remember us buying a house was so important to my family. My mother was so unhappy in her apartment in Queens that it was a whole big thing, and so we wouldn't have been able to do it. So the idea that there were. You know, my dad as a vet was not the same as other debt. The other vets just. Just really was one of those. Just not just horrible. So that's a great example of just, you know, there.

36:40 It's forever injustice. Just injustice. But it didn't. Didn't. Believe it or not, it hasn't made me cold or bitter or any of those things. I just want to see before I leave this earth, I want to see equity, you know, equality for my grandson, my great grandson. You know, that they don't have to go through what I went through. When there's time to pay, let it be so that everyone know what? Everybody's getting paid because we were always underpaid, you know, and although bread costs the same price for everybody, but, you know, we didn't make the money like everybody else. One person buy a bag of eggs, a bag of apples, they tell you the proper food deed, but then you need to proper money to buy the food. So we have to take an egg on that apple and divide it eight different ways, maybe, where someone else can buy a whole bag. And so it was a lot, you know, I'm assuming I have no bitterness. I don't know. I'm complaining about it right now.

37:54 No, no, I complain. I mean, I don't blame you because, you know, brought up, you know, unions were so important that made things better for everyone. And. And down here, it doesn't, you know, well, they don't exist so much anymore anyway. But that was a way to get people on a living wage. And when I grew up, if you worked in a store, you could live. People have to have free jobs. But, of course, I didn't grow up with the terrible. The salaries down here is just abysmal. When I moved down, I had done some administrative assisting, basically secretary stuff in New Jersey, and it was $15 an hour. The same job when I moved down was eight.

38:45 Oh, yeah.

38:46 And then, you know, this is a white, you know, white person. So, I mean, it was so shocking to me because of it being an anti working state and anti union, then everything's lower, you know? Everything is lower.

38:58 Yeah, just.

38:59 It was just. And it's not, you know, this is not. It's not that. I know that rent was lower, but everything else was the same, you know? So it's. Yeah, the whole thing is.

39:12 Yeah, well, Rena's horrible here now. It's just horrible here. But here on August 12, we're going to be having, you know, this is the fifth year, and so CCC will be having vigil as well as a service on that day. So we're looking forward to that and just hoping we can just instead of it being on united, unite the right. It's unite the light. Oh, I love that. God gave me that thought. Just talking about uniting the light. All of us believe in light, and house divided against itself will fall. So we need to know how to be unified, and so we will be doing that and looking forward to that to bring the community together and, you know, bring some oneness, bring some unity.

40:14 Yeah, that's the thing that's really kind of disturbing about so much of that's going on, is that finding things that can bring people together rather than separate us.

40:25 That's right. So pray for our safety, though, you know, I'm believing they would not be thinking about anything evil. But you just don't know what's going on with people in people's mind these days.

40:40 Right. There's so many things that are disappointing. You think we made some sort of progress and then. No, I mean, not. Yeah, yeah, that's right. Yeah. So it's, it is scary.

40:51 So I just wanted to jump in. Oh, I just wonder, was she still in criminal justice? I just wonder if she was still in there. I'm sorry.

40:59 Well, no, you know, since then I did work for, doing work with Virginia organizing and we were, we were, our chapter was pretty much behind. And I think the NAACP in Richmond or other areas helped get restoration of rights for felons. So really worked hard on that. And then of course, unfortunately, I don't think this new governor is signing off the way the other two did. A lot of people have their rights restored and don't know it. So the pandemic has made it difficult on that way to be out telling people and checking, do you have your rights restored? So that was really important because that was just plain crazy. And then those things we worked on and now, you know, we're working getting the police oversight board, which has issues, but that was the thing that people's coalition's been working on. And now we're working on trying to get the Marcus alert implemented. We had a couple of years where the Democrats were in power and they got this where, you know, Marcus, Mister Marcus was murdered for having mental health issues. So now there's a law that says we need to implement something that professional goes out rather than the police and not call the police. We're basically trying to get a movement so people don't call the police, that they find other alternatives because it could be so dangerous. And they may, for a lot of things, they're not the right people to call anyway. So that's what we're working on now. So the markets alert is mandated by the state. They kind of put it off a little bit and now our communities can do it sooner, but some of them say, you know, dragging their feet. So we're giving pressure on that. Like Albemarle's doing a program, but starting next year, you know, so that's really important to make sure people feel safe and, you know, deal with mental health in the community and all that.

43:06 So that's sounding good then.

43:09 Yeah, important.

43:10 We'll keep that in prayer.

43:12 Yeah. Thank you. Thank you.

43:14 You're more than welcome.

43:16 Yeah.

43:17 Nice meeting you.

43:18 Oh, it's great meeting you. So you're gonna head. Yeah, you have to head on.

43:21 So, yeah, we're just wrapping up next few minutes, if it's okay. Just two or three minutes. Just a last question, you know, what is this experience left you thinking about, or how has it been to just.

43:32 Talk to each other and talk about these issues and these thoughts? I love talking to people, and I love talking with you, Sarah. It was great.

43:43 Yeah. It was just amazing to have kindred spirits, as far as, you know, justice is concerned. And I enjoy talking to you as well. And thank you for allowing me to run off at the mouth. You can tell I'm a preacher because I love to talk.

43:59 No, I love it. I love it. No, no, I love it. I think it's fantastic. No, it's really wonderful.

44:05 The success in the criminal justice area, because I, you know, that's my heart too. And so, you know, I will definitely put that on our prayer list.

44:17 Oh, thank you. Yeah. Marcus alert. And the effort to have people not call the police Willy nilly. So.

44:26 Okay. I definitely had it. Got to print it down, and I'm.

44:31 Going to keep, keep you guys in my heart. You're, you know, the collective.

44:38 Thank you.

44:39 Collective, which, you know, is very heartwarming. It's wonderful.

44:42 Yeah. Thank you very much. And especially to me, not knowing exactly why I was selected as president, but do want to do a good job in that, so please keep me in prayer.

44:53 Absolutely, absolutely. I know you can be brilliant at it, so they're so lucky to have you. What can I say?

45:03 Thank you so much, both of you, for being part of this. And I'll reach out and just say thank you one more time through an email.

45:10 If you're interested in sharing contact information with each other, you certainly can, or.

45:14 I can connect you through email. But thank you so much for joining us. It was just really wonderful. I know Diane and I both really enjoyed listening, and we appreciate you coming.

45:24 On today so you could do the same email so we'll have each other's company.

45:28 That's right. That's right.

45:29 Will do.

45:30 Thank you.

45:30 I appreciate that.

45:32 And thank you for facilitating. You did excellent job for your initial.

45:37 Thank you. Wonderful.

45:38 It was great. I mean, you guys had a wonderful.

45:40 Conversation, so we didn't need to do anything.

45:43 Okay, thank you.

45:44 Thank you.

45:45 Yeah.

45:46 Have a great rest of your day. Thank you all.

45:48 Okay. God bless you.

45:50 God bless.

45:50 Okay.

45:51 Thank you.