SB Rawz and Katelyn Martin
DescriptionOne Small Step partners, Sarah Rawrz (43) and Katelyn Martin (28), connect through their life experiences and exchange their political beliefs.
Subject Log / Time Code
- SB Rawz
- Katelyn Martin
Recording LocationVirtual Recording
StoryCorps uses Google Cloud Speech-to-Text and Natural Language API to provide machine-generated transcripts. Transcripts have not been checked for accuracy and may contain errors. Learn more about our FAQs through our Help Center or do not hesitate to get in touch with us if you have any questions.
00:02 All right. My name is Katelyn Martin. I live in Richmond, Virginia. Today is June 24th, 2021 and I'm 30 years old, and I'm having a conversation today with her bio says, I am the fiance to an incredible woman divorced from an incredible man from North Carolina. That raised by a Jewish woman from Philadelphia. Not a typical, Southern upbringing. I'm a practitioner of what I've come to think of it as gritty determined, Stubborn, Love, which I'm not very good at the practice. Every day at eighteen. I was nearly killed by an ex at 25. I started the first of several businesses at 35. I became a business empowerment coach. I'm packed with gratitude every day that this is how I earn my living. Excited. To talk to you. Sarah. I'm excited. Talk to you.
00:50 I'm Sarah, and I am, let's see. If I remember, I just had a birthday. I'm 43 years old. I live in Roanoke, Virginia. Yeah, and I'm here with Caitlin and Katelyn wrote about you, worry about yourself. I'm 30 years old. I'm a stay-at-home mother to a twenty-month-old boy. I do manage the books of my husband. Small Refrigeration, HVAC business. I did attend Community College and got an associate's degree in General Studies. I never really knew what I wanted to be when I grew up. I struggled with infertility a miscarriage before, getting pregnant with my son. That is something that had a huge impact on my life. I really want all of us to come together and be understanding towards one another resonates with me and we had the opportunity to ask each other questions about the bio and I'm your your bio inspires a lot of curiosity from me. Is that okay?
01:50 No, just different things. Like the first thing that said, that you were raised by a Jewish woman. What does that mean? I mean, I've never thought about what it means. For sure. I raised by Jewish drum Buddhist. He's not, that's never really mattered to me. I guess you could say. But, you know, you put in your bio. So it's important to you apparently. So what does that mean? I was raised in an observant Jewish Home and said there was a lot of really active like I went to a Jewish Elementary School and we follow Jewish dietary laws and really impacted just every corner of my life and being raised. As I was raised in North Carolina and Greensboro and being raised in Greensboro, North Carolina where there is a Jewish population, but it's certainly not the norm, you know, by any stretch, it really sit out there like one of the funny memories but ends up for me or my high school friends and we would have these little picnics and my mom would sometimes bring a pizza for a little picnics and they would never have meat.
02:50 On them because of the Jewish dietary laws. He don't eat meat and dairy together. And my friends will be like, where is the pepperonis? This and I feel like such a big big prescription from certain things like that. Yeah. Yeah. It was a very, very different. Yeah. I definitely felt different in that way amongst a lot of other ways, but it also really fueled who I am as a person feel like to the last line of your bio was about wanting all of us to come together and be understanding toward each other. And I feel like my Jewish upbringing had a lot to do with what it means to be compassionate toward one another and what it means to take action on behalf of people who can't take action for themselves, and support people who need some additional self additional support in that kind of something that's very much. Infused into my even my elementary school. That was a big part of what we did. Where does that come from? In you? Do you think
03:50 Very, very religious family on my parents divorced, when I was really young, my mom single mother. She took me to a little Presbyterian Church in town when I was very little when I did this Sunday school thing and she just did it for ingrained that in me that, you know, I want to do good. I want to be a good person. I will go to heaven, one day, you know, that it's really early childhood that introduced to me. I think, made a big impact one, and I've only seen a very empathetic. I mean, if you feel things, so strongly, I mean, you're wasting your life, so, I don't know if it's just in my blood test, show that your miscarriage in your experience of infertility, really stood out to me and I thought about it made me think about and feel about grief. And I wonder if you might be willing to tell me a little bit about that experience.
04:48 Well, it happened. My miscarriage was very early on in the pregnancy. So other women have experience as any of them or I'll kick your ass. No hormone. Imbalance, don't get periods regularly as a woman. So just things like that made it really hard to get me some medicine. If we tried that a few times, got pregnant took a break for a little while. And now the new doctor and jump right back on it. And try back-to-back-to-back medicine rounds and finally got pregnant again and say congratulations. I'm glad that you have your baby.
05:32 Future wife has two children. One is 19 and 28, and they have been very generous and loving with me the whole time until I feel just incredibly lucky to be in their lives and they have them in my life. It was a conscious decision to not have kids but not without grief, you know it but it's a decision. I feel good about and I feel solid about but also like a little sad, you know. I don't know. I don't have any more children. I mean, I don't want to go through everything. I want to do again. So I think I don't know about you. But sometimes I want these decisions to feel more solid, right? I wanted to be like more black and white and like, I've had made the decision. I can feel entirely good about it and somewhere, another three or four eyes. It's like
06:32 I was always hated many, many people in my younger days or whatever. So I've always been very exciting and very, very welcoming to anyone that they dated one of them feel important in love to, but I've always been very much supportive of my significant other's how, how old were you when your parents were sold together. I do remember brief fights. Maybe like Little Clips is like them yelling at each other. And we do you like red light, green light here, trying to get the stuff. I do. Remember and I do remember the day my dad left because stuff was falling out of the window of his truck into the dryer.
07:32 Remember that, but my dad moved in with his mother, for a brief period of time. So I was still able to go there on the weekends and visit and stuff and then he dated a woman for a few years, but I keep in touch with her to this day. I had a very vivid memory of the day, my dad left and then I heard I've two older siblings and I heard their story of it and they're older enough. That their story was invented. This whole story of of the day. He left.
08:22 I don't have any older siblings to tell me about right in my memories. And do you feel like, your parents divorce, affects how you approach your own marriage?
08:38 Slightly maybe not on a very upfront level, but they do something subconsciously. My dad, dated a woman. The one I was telling you about. That was only ten years, ten years older than me, for a few years that they went through. A lot of drug addiction and alcoholism, and it was a very violent home lived in for a while and that I think has affected me more so than my parents actually did that relationship. He had with her, just the violence that was going on and stuff. Like, when me and my husband fight or get into an argument, I can almost feel those same feelings. I felt being around or anything like that song. Sometimes I know exactly what you mean. There's definitely
09:30 And I mentioned in my bio that you read that. I was almost killed at the kitten's you a teenager. And there's always that little part of me, right? Even though I've not been in a relationship since then, like are they still there? When I like a little thing that hangs in the back of your mind, right? Or in the back of your car and I'll be honest, you know, as so many debates have been going on in our country right now about policing and imprisonment and all that kind of stuff. It's made me revisit that time through a different lens and really question. Whether whether that was right? Like at the time, it felt right a bit. I mean gacha. The time I wanted them to throw away the key, right? I would like
10:30 Sing to me and you do and that he needed some very close to killing me and and it felt I felt very obviously endangered and all that stuff. But as I look back and I and I know so much about his history and I actually met when I was twelve and he was 13 and then we got together when I was seventeen and he was eighteen and around and it was just horrible. He just went through so much so much trauma and so much pain until now when I look back I think gosh what would it have been like if instead of you know 4 plus years or more trauma by being in prison, what is that have been 4 years of intensive therapy, but like
11:20 Would that be different every once in a blue moon and it has been years. But every once in a blue moon, I've looked him up on Facebook. And like, you know, my life has gotten really, really good over the years. I've been so lucky and so well resource and he continues to struggle, you know, what would have happened? If his at 19, instead of prison had gotten support, you know, I guess at first when you first say, you know, you didn't think maybe he didn't shouldn't have gone to jail for 4 years, of course. My brain for automatically, like, no, he needs to be in it like that from your point of view, of, if you'd gotten help that, he needed how things could have been maybe different for him. Today. That way, I have a brother-in-law that ever since very young age that he stole things have drug addiction. He's been in and out of jail, his whole adult life. In with the dirt covid. I guess he was supposed to be getting transferred to like,
12:20 Program to like help him with Rehabilitation and reintroduce them back into society. And I guess it's covid that they close the program. And they just went to jail and I mean he's doing good now, which is great. I'm not completely positive or comfortable. I have not seen him since he's been out of jail. My husband is his brother has seen him once and I wish you'd stay in jail, a little bit longer and done that program. I think he needed that programme. He's never had an adult life outside of this criminal life and being in jail, and he's never had a license. He's got three children that has no relationship. But since I think you're right, when you say, they could have benefited from getting some type of help to help them work through the things that they've been through and maybe that would have set him on a better foot within range, reduce the society and getting a job and trying to pay off fines and just get his life back together.
13:14 Yeah, for right now. Like it seems like there's so much over his head with like that child was like how she ever going to overcome with over his head. And that's something that I think about cuz I could please Dunes back, right. And we think about it from that. I I shouldn't say. We have to say, I think about it for like a wider perspective of what's best for society, right? And then I think ya like like what we all need or people who can be productive, right and and take care of their responsibilities in life and be contributing. So just like, we all win, right? But we still maybe it's to do with how individualistic we honor the culture, right? That were like, no, you did this thing and, and you need to be punished for it. But like, I feel like it's for the shooting ourselves in the foot, sometimes of the society. We approach individual, that way.
14:14 Things that have happened to you, but I think sometimes people put too much weight on the trauma and don't let go of it. I mean I made it they need to help let go of it. But I mean I was molested as a seventeen-year-old girl, bad that I've known all my life and it was very traumatic at the time. And yes, maybe it still is in my head it time, but it has not held me back in any way. It has not made me fear men. It has not made me that they say it would maybe other people, it would affect them differently. Maybe that's just me personally, or maybe it's my faith in God or something like that, but the trauma hasn't
14:50 I haven't much, do something that takes root in my life and that controls any aspect of my life experiences, our experiences. Right? Like we can't even, they're not comfortable to each other. Really. Yeah, right. I know that for me.
15:11 I think I think sometimes about susceptibility. Right? Like, how could two people to your point hack into people, go through the same type of experience, and sometimes even the exact same experience, right? Two people can come out of the same kind of family home. For example, right. And be very different like one can be just like well that was a terrible family home but like moving on and the other one can spend the rest of their lives in therapy, right? Is that a person out? Like I have no idea of, right? You some therapy. I don't know if you wake up and fighting her in my dreams. I mean, I used to, I guess. What time is his magical? Sometimes it's getting a little space existent.
16:11 Flow in a dance like right after putting a couple years after I was attacked. It was like, pretty rough been 10 years. They kept me alive. And I was, I was really depressed, and I start appeared myself and feared for myself, but, and then I went through a phase of like a damn thing that happened, you know, just the thing and then I sort of came full circle, really painful hard thing and I have this wonderful life and I have all these advantages, you know, it was her like I came full circle and found like a great breath and I think that's all we get to do with individuals have are really like our own individual relationship with our lives in that ultimately.
17:03 We all deal with things that have happened to us in our own ways. And it's like, what this whole thing is about. As it's help us. Look at life and look at politics and look at the way people carry themselves, when we look at things a certain way because of what happened. The role of. Absolutely. So I was a little bit in the storycorps project and I'm curious about like two things primarily when is is what did inspire you to sign up. And I don't know if you're doing this too, but I'm trying to express that like, why did they pair us? Like, you know how it what ways are we different? That's like this makes it an interesting pairing.
17:47 Okay. So what made me want to do, this is obviously with all the craziness that's happened in the past year. A lot of the one big thing. I guess really stuff. We was when the Trump supporters. I was a trump supporter. I still very much supported President Trump.
18:07 They, when they went to Washington DC for a rally and then seeing all the footage of them being attacked by black lives matter and Tifa. I mean, I was all upset and crying saying, he's innocent people watch. I mean, in my mind, they were innocent people being attacked, her nothing more than what their political beliefs were. And then after that, I just got really interested in trying to understand better and hopefully maybe be better understood on from the other side like understood where I'm coming from and it's such a great idea. I would love to be scared to do it, but that you would love to have a conversation with somebody or how you feel. May be misunderstood by family is completely opposite beliefs of me. Not my mom, but like my dad side.
19:07 Like family on my dad's side and pretty much all of them for posting stuff on, like the internet, saying if you vote for Trump are racist, but having family post stuff like that. Really affected me, really upset me. I haven't seen any of them because we haven't gotten together, but it's still very misunderstood support. I like a person by no means. I don't have will against, you know, anybody with a brain turning like, okay, then I feel like, I don't understand a democratic point of you on Sunday. I just don't get it. Just doesn't resonate my brain, I guess, so, just wanting tester.
19:58 Still ground and not have the violence that I saw take place. That I know takes place all over the world on every side. I mean, it's there everywhere. In seeing it, brought out against against people that look like me and leave. Like me, really upset me. Can you tell me more about what you mean by? I believe, like you?
20:19 That America needs to be put first that freedom.
20:25 Is there speed to be freedom on so many different levels at that sounds weird saying that I guess I'm not good with my words, but freedom to make decisions for us all three of them to take care of our own take care of our family to not have to.
20:42 Take care of things that don't matter to me. I guess you could say, I mean it, I guess I'm not wearing my thing with my words properly. Maybe, maybe.
20:54 Is there a like something in mind that you have in mind? I like an impression. You have of me as a trump supporter as somebody, you know, they're on the right side of the political spectrum. Is there something that you're curious about?
21:08 I mean like a million things, but I felt my
21:21 I felt myself change, right? As I was looking at that like a little tension a little bit. So thank you. Thank you for sharing with me. That's awesome. And I do think this is so hard. Right? Because what we, what we believe is is so ingrained into it. I think and a lot of ways and I think it can be hard. Okay, so the scares me to do, but I want to tell you the story the woman, right? And we recently moved on without the windows or just landscape we live and we learn is just beautiful slightly rural area, when were like 10 minutes from downtown, but like, our areas were all and Creek in the backyard.
22:21 We moved in last September rights were like in the thick of the election stuff. Right? And there are a lot of trump signs around here. And and I do have a bias, right? I have this assumption that that there's going to be some kind of feeling about me especially is a queer person. And not that the fact that I'm Jewish is as obvious as the fact that I own a home with a woman, right? Like, that's pretty obvious that this little September 7th of this home and and our neighbors are going to be ugly to us or not want us here, or are we in this in this new neighborhood. And there was like a little brief time when I like wouldn't hold my partner's hand in the front yard, which is so not like me were like that the hand-holding kind of couple and
23:21 And I really recognized in that moment that, like, when I was getting hijacked by diocese, right? Like, I was getting hijacked by what I was imagining people. I didn't know to be right, and that I needed to do something about that. And I actually, because I am a coach and I, I run a coaching business wrap that in and I, and I called together community community. Like, let's talk about our values and who we want to be in times of stress, like, I'm feeling stressed and that's where I came to that thing that I put in my my bio that you read about Grady determined Stubborn, Love, because it's so important to me that even though I felt myself react, right. Even now. Right, that that's not a part of me that I want to let make my decisions, right? And that's not a part of me that I want to let influence. How I relate to people that I want to start out with the fundamental assumption that we are all.
24:17 Beautiful, wonderful and thoughtful human beings, right? And that we're going to do birds in some ways and that's how boring would the world be. If we didn't know that, you had that fear because of the Trump signs. I mean. I guess I can imagine I can put myself in your shoes and try to picture like what that would feel like. But like to make it know, it makes me sad that you would be fearful of somebody that supported Trump. Like you have nothing to fear from me.
24:49 I definitely have that fence. I'm really enjoying connecting with you. Yeah, I recognize this place where we diverge.
25:05 Well, I guess it'll feel like any fears or anything.
25:12 I guess. Okay. So one thing do you believe most Republicans are against gay people?
25:25 Yes, or no, cuz you believe Christians, most Christians are against gay. People are more likely to assume that more Republicans than more than Christians. Like, I know you do. I know a greater diversity. Okay, so I have a friend and whose father is a Republican and a trump supporter. And I mean, he loves me. He loves my partner, right? Like, and until I'm there, is that part of me that's aware that there can be this disconnect that a person. Can my father's friend, my friend Father can vote against my right.
26:06 But not see it as voting against my right. What part was Voting against your rights, though?
26:17 Well, there's been a lot of movement right? There was a lot of movement during President. Trump's time. That was, was taking away rights for me, members of lgbtq community, right? That was making it harder for Trans people, to get care that they need. And I mean, it still going on, right? Yeah, and that's not happening within the Democratic party is happening within the Republican Party.
26:48 Not personalizing that because they do feel like family as well. Quite literally there, trans people in my family. Yeah. Yeah. And so I have a hard time reconciling that this, this beautiful human being can hug me and love me, and he's coming to our wedding and all these things. And also feel like it's okay to
27:11 I don't know what that discounted. Maybe you can help me understand. I don't know what that disconnected or what. I'm not understanding friends are gay people. That was never something that's never been something I've been for I think.
27:30 And I mean, maybe I need to do my more research on what was happening during Trump's presidency just so I can be a better educated on it. I know there was one thing about serving in the military or something like that, but it was more along the lines of if you're currently. Undergoing hormone replacement therapy that you couldn't serve in the military, which I'm not a doctor. I don't know what all you know, therapedic can like, do do hers. And that maybe that was a good decision that maybe when you're going under that type of treatment, which is much mental, probably as it is physical that maybe military serving isn't the best idea at that time. Maybe, I don't, I don't know. That was the one thing. I do know that we're bringing up a lot during the Trump presidency. But curious. Have you ever had a conversation with other people in the gay and trans community that?
28:22 Are Trump supporters are our Republican like has that ever been something that you've had a conversation with somebody with you know about you know, there is a group called The Log Cabin, Republicans. I haven't had a chance to meet anybody. Any any people from the queer Community who are Republican, has been something that I guess. I guess I got really into it with the election and everything. Just the following more people on Instagram that were very much on their thing is I've never been. I was never super into politics, I guess until the most recent years and then voted against Obama twice as a young girl, you know, not knowing much about much. And then, finally, I voted for Trump his first election and he wants that's the first time. I like the candidate that I wanted one and maybe educated or what. I believe. I knew what I felt personally. And I felt like he is
29:21 Whatever his administration Alliance more with my political beliefs than what I thought was best for our country.
29:34 Well, thank you for sharing with me. Yeah, I'm wondering, can I ask you? Did you pay attention to or did you have any feelings about things that Trump said or yeah, his relationship toward women. That's what I'm curious about it.
29:56 Okay, so you talked about the grab, grab her by the whatever, plenty of people out there. That's a worse things. I can. Personally, I probably said something more derogatory than that, you know, I mean, it or whatever. And, in my mind.
30:25 Not at. I hope it doesn't offend me being honest. It didn't, it didn't bother me. I mean, people say worse things all the time in, like, why? I don't know why that would be upsetting for me to not be affected by the, maybe it affected you hearing him, say, stuff like that. No, I honestly, I mean, yes. Yes, it did affect me, but you not certainly, not to judge you, but just understand, you know, just to understand. Like, I've wondered about that wondered, how women who voted for, Trump? Feel about those kinds of things, but not that your representatives voted for Trump. I'm only asking for people, I know there's been some things that, you know, recordings if there's so much corruption on both sides of the political spectrum, and I think the media twist things a lot from both,
31:25 But I think a lot of the things that the bad things that people think about Trump have been think that the media twist it about him that at the beginning, and they've made it seem like he's anti-gay or something like that when he was the first one to have a gay person serving and his administration. I don't know what it was that I remember. And then they tried to come out with an article and buy it and was elected that he had the first gay person to serve in that position seems like the truck just indictment. Biden. Wasn't the first present, do that Trump was. And then with, like, Trump being racist or something like, there's videos. You can look back from many, many years, like 30-40 years. I mean, not 48. But all of Trumps younger years of being very close with mini black artist black musicians. He's won awards for no Brotherhood. I mean, he's never been a racist person by any means and my sister-in-law very much pleased, either racist and tried to have the conversation with her. She gets very, very emotional and it's just not a conversation. She's willing to have anymore so we don't
32:25 We're family. We don't need to have those conversations if it's going to draw wedge, but I think he has turned a lot of things into something that it wasn't. And that's unfortunately made a lot of people's opinions. Yeah, just like them. They're not willing to look at it from a different way. You're actually watch the full video or something, like, you seen this Clips. You've got this opinion. But what about the whole thing that was said, like with the the, the Charlottesville, what happened in Charlottesville, and he said that, you know, there were many good people on both sides or something. People took that like he's staying at the KKK people were good people. That's not what he said it all cuz right after that he said I'm not talking about the KKK are the proud boys. They should be completely forget to worry you but she like certain little things like that. Is that something you thought about that? He didn't meet with the leader of the proud boys later in his presidency.
33:23 I don't think the problem is is a racist group.
33:28 Has American loving as against against antifa? Yeah, I really do think them is very racist.
33:46 I might need to let, we might need a both look up their website and see what their beliefs are. Will read on it, and see what we if maybe our minds are changing later about.
34:00 It here. I feel like we're so inundated with information to sort of generally and evaluating and being open-minded. Just today, I finish listening to
34:14 Malcolm gladwell's book talking to strangers. Have you heard of it or read it or anything? Yeah, but it was interesting because it was talking about the biosphere is like, the sort of unconscious biases that were working with me, talk to strangers and how we have, like, no idea, right? We're going, that's the whole point of him being unconscious, right? That we don't, we don't know, we're not even aware of what we're assuming or and how to, like really profound disconnects. And it just, you know, we have so many we have so many ways to disconnect and it's really, it's both sad and inevitable to me in some ways, you know what I mean? And that's all about that. Maybe there is things in my brain that were in Grace Smith and tell her that, I don't realize. I mean, I I did go to a primarily African-American school. I had many African-American friends growing up.
35:14 That's the color of somebody skin. 10 minutes for one to two questions. No rush. OK, Google. No skin color is a child. That's something that never mattered to me. Just like, you know, like I asked you in the beginning about what being from you, having a Jewish mother meant. There's some things like that have never so much affected. And, you know, mom called me to say anything. Personally. It's always been about how person interacts with me, how they carry themselves, how they take care of their responsibilities and their family, go to work, pay your bills, be a good person, take care of your loved ones. And that's what I think everyone needs to do. I've never cared so much about color or what you believe in or not know what I believe. And I wish everyone believe. Like I did, but it I know that's not, that's not reasonable. That's not going to happen. So I just got to be able to
36:08 Live my life and let people live their ass and be supportive and hope that everyone can take care of themselves.
36:15 I did have one question just cuz it has been talked about a lot nights. Is something that's current currently going on. What is your opinion on the qanon? The qanon people?
36:28 Oh gosh. This is like two big bags. I mean, I don't, I don't believe it. I don't believe the conspiracies. I think that then send them the core of them go back a really, really long ways and get revived from time to time. And I think that there's, I think it's a really interesting case study if I can even call it that in the ways that the ways that we can be swept up in an idea and how hard it can be to to decide if it's exactly where thank you. Yeah, what about you? So I agree with you on that? Okay, so I had two good girl friends that so I think a lot of the stuff is going on Instagram and you know, all these mothers and Christian women and stuff.
37:28 Kind of going down this Rabbit Hole of like, following all these influences that are like pushing out this cute on stuff, not to really good girl. Friends. That really are like, they're in deep with it. They like, they believe people are like, doing something adrenochrome, or something like that. And all that crazy stuff out there yesterday pedophiles out there. Yes, that does exist, but we don't have Hillary Clinton out there. Sacrificing children.
38:02 Yeah, yeah. Okay, you're Republican or you must be a conspiracy theorist now. And it's like, no, I completely separate myself from that. I looked into it because I think that that's had a negative impact early on the Republican Party. One last question to take me to Direction. I'd love to hear a little bit about what you'd like to see for your son's future.
38:45 What you wish for him for my son's future.
38:50 I hope that he stays healthy. I hope that one day he gets married and has children. I would love to be a grandmother one day. I hope he's never
39:02 Discriminative now, for big white male in America, where a lot of people are being told that, you know, if you're white, you're you're automatically your race. I don't know if you feel that way when you are, white ninjas that affect you knowing that, you know, some people think, like, people are just fine actually racist and that's not something I want for my son's future. Does your white person? I mean,
39:36 I just wanted to look, I want his childhood and his growing up to be better than what I had to take care of people and have compassion for people. I want to be accepting of all people and I want him to love God.
39:59 That's what we have, questioned. The one is there anything?
40:12 I don't think that I came in with any specific expectations, with based on your bio. Only curiosity. What about you did? Anything surprise? You do? Not really. I guess I'll be there was just obviously more curiosity. Would say it's sad that our time in so soon cuz I could ask you so many more questions, but no nothing. Nothing too surprising. I mean, I guess that's why we were paired with each other is because we do see things differently politically. Obviously, I don't know where you say religiously but we obviously have different views on things and I think that's why we are together.
41:01 Actually our kids live in Richmond.