Sarah Whitman-Salkin and Cassandra Neyenesch

[00:09] SARAH WHITMAN SALKIN: My name is Sarah Whitman Salkin. I'm 38 years old. Today's date is October 10, 2022. We are in New York City. My interview partner is Cassandra, and we just met

[00:25] CASSANDRA NEYENESCH: My name is Cassandra Neyenesch I'm 53 almost. Today's date is October 10, 2022. We're in my mother's home in Soho. Sarah is my interview partner, and we just met. So can you tell me your abortion story?

[00:50] SARAH WHITMAN SALKIN: Sure. I had an abortion when I was 27. I had just gotten married. I had been married for, like, maybe five months when I realized I was pregnant. And I had always assumed, like, my whole life that I would have children. And I think that was part of the deal of getting married, too, was this assumption that we would get married and have children. He and I had been together for five years before we got married, and I got pregnant, and I realized that it was not a good time for me to have a baby, like, in any way. I was, like, figuring out what I wanted to do with myself professionally in a lot of ways. And that felt really new. We had just gotten married, and so that felt really new. And my husband was very depressed at the time and was having trouble getting out of bed, severely depressed. And so, yeah, I remember I'd been feeling sick for a few weeks, and then I remember peeing on a stick, and just. There was almost, like, no, no thought between, like, seeing the line on the stick and knowing that I would have an abortion. My mother had an abortion when she was in her late twenties and was really open with me and my sister about that. I think I always just assumed that having abortions was a thing. That was a thing that people did. Like, it was just a sort of. And, like, really almost this idea that, like, having an abortion was, like, part of becoming a woman. Like, it was a normal thing that people did. And so I called my mom. Well, I told my husband. I told him I was pregnant and that I wanted to have an abortion. And he was very supportive at first. He was very supportive, and he was trying to figure out the best place to do it, and, you know, where was I going to get the best care? And, you know, really, like, what's the safest place? What's, you know, all that kind of stuff. And then I called my mom, and she just had an amazing. She had an amazing. I just remember she had an amazing response when I. I said, I'm pregnant. And she said, okay. And I said, I'm gonna have an abortion. And she said, okay. And it was just like, there was no, she didn't ask me any questions. Like, it was just. She was like, do you know where you're gonna go? And I said, no. And she said, okay, let me call a friend of mine and figure out where you should go. And so I went to planned parenthood, and it was really. It was really physically very painful afterwards. I was, like, in pretty bad pain for, like, four or five days. And I remember the cab ride home was very painful. I remember the cab driver was really driving on the brake in this way, and it was really. It really hurt my body. And I remember my husband, like, asking the guy to, like, drive a little more gently. And I remember feeling, like, very taken care of in that moment. Like, I thought it was, like, a very sweet thing for him to do. And then I. Yeah, I was really in terrible pain, but I didn't. I, like, that was just my body. Like, you know, I'm like, I'm a sensitive person. Like, I just. I know that about my body. And I felt really pretty okay about it. And he was very upset about it afterwards, and he became, like, he became very upset about it. And he was really sad. He was really sad that we had had this opportunity to have a child, and that that opportunity was no longer available in this way. He was really sad that I felt like. I think he viewed my decision to have an abortion as some kind of judgment on his ability to be a parent. And I think in some ways, it was in that moment, right. He was having trouble getting out of bed. I also wasn't in a place where I felt ready to be a parent, so I didn't feel like it was particularly judgmental. I felt like it was pretty practical. But, yeah, he really. I remember he became very emotional about it. He was crying a lot, and, like, I wasn't crying about it. And that was very upsetting to him that I wasn't more emotional about it. And I just remember being, like, really confused by these fights we would have, because I was like, no, it's okay. It's okay that I'm okay about this. Like, you're free to have your reaction. I'm free to have my reaction. Like, and, yeah, that. I think. I'm not sure he ever really forgave me for it. We're not married anymore. We were married for five years, but I think even at the end of our marriage, I don't think he ever really forgave me for it. And we never had kids together, and we're still good friends, and I still think it's something that he kind of holds against to me that I took this thing away from him. I'm like, I'm 38. I'm not gonna have kids, and I feel pretty great about that. I have a lot of children in my life. A lot of my friends have kids, and I get to participate in their lives in all sorts of ways. And then I get to go home, which is really nice. And I work with young people, I work with adolescents and young adults all day long. And so, like, in a lot of ways, I do feel like I'm parenting, you know, in some sort of twisted way. In a different way, maybe, but I feel really. I don't know. I feel really grateful that it was as easy as it was. And I feel really grateful to my mother for, like, normalizing this for me because I think my ex husband was so, so upset about it. And, like, having these years of my mother just normalizing it for me in the background, really, like, helped me sort of maintain my own sense of self and what was right for me.

[09:16] CASSANDRA NEYENESCH: Yeah. Do you feel that the abortion contributed to your eventual separation?

[09:27] SARAH WHITMAN SALKIN: I wouldn't really say that. I think. I think our marriage ended for a lot of reasons, and I. I think that the. Some of the reasons that. I don't know quite how to say this, like, maybe. Maybe the decision to have an abortion came out of a place where some of the reasons our marriage ended came from. Maybe they sort of came from a similar source of feeling or questioning or something. But I don't think that the decision to have an abortion did not really contribute to the marriage ending, if that makes sense.

[10:37] CASSANDRA NEYENESCH: Did your husband at the time ever acknowledge that you would be the one doing most of the work?

[10:43] SARAH WHITMAN SALKIN: No.

[10:45] CASSANDRA NEYENESCH: Was that part of a pattern?

[10:47] SARAH WHITMAN SALKIN: Yes. Yeah, that was a huge part of it. You know, even after the abortion, he really wanted us to have kids. And I was like, yeah, great. Like, you know, if you can, you know, do the laundry, unfold and put away the clothes and cook dinner three times this week, and, you know, if you can sort of, like, show up in these sort of basic and mundane activities of daily life, like. And that kind of stuff was really hard for him. And I. I was raised by a woman who had a husband, and, like, did both of them worked full time, but she was the primary parent, and I was not interested in recreating that like that. I saw how hard that was for her, and I didn't want that for myself. And so, yeah, I think making the decision to have an abortion was, like, another way of saying, like, yeah, like, I take care of us in a lot of ways, and, like, I'm gonna make this decision for us because you can't make this decision for us. And I think in a lot of ways, he didn't want that to be true, and it upset him that it was true.

[12:27] CASSANDRA NEYENESCH: How did he react when you would say, you know, maybe I would consider having a baby if you could do the laundry?

[12:37] SARAH WHITMAN SALKIN: He would say, well, I'll rise to the occasion at the time when we get there. And, like, that's not how skills are built. It doesn't work like that. And, like, yeah, everything takes practice, you know? And, like, I don't know. I know everyone says, like, there's no good time to have a baby, but also, like. And you can't. You can't prepare for what it's going to be like, but also, like, you can prepare. You can. You can prepare yourself for the kinds of responsibilities and activities that you anticipate will be right on the. A part of this journey. Right. You can baby proof your house, and you can get better at waking up early and, you know, whatever.

[13:30] CASSANDRA NEYENESCH: Yeah. It just seems like a token of sincerity on his part would have been to maybe do the laundry.

[13:37] SARAH WHITMAN SALKIN: Yeah. Yeah.

[13:39] CASSANDRA NEYENESCH: And if he couldn't do that, then, yeah, it feels unfair that he would be blaming you for making what sounds like a really ethical and intelligent choice.

[13:51] SARAH WHITMAN SALKIN: Yeah. And I think that was part of what really upset him was that he was very emotional about it, and I was not emotional about it because it was not an emotional decision for me. And, like, particularly in terms of, like, the. I don't know what to call it, but, like, the sort of science of it. Like, I was like, this is not a baby. And, like, don't. Don't do that. Like. Like, we're talking about a. You know, if we have to talk about it, we're talking about a cluster of cells, so don't. There's potential here. We can acknowledge the potential, but there's potential all around us. Like, this idea that having an abortion must have been a loss and that I must have been sad that these were sort of requirements of this activity, really. I mean, that was not my experience of it. I was not sad. I felt really relieved. It was painful, and I was, you know, that part was pretty uncomfortable. But, like, I was not sad and I was not grieving. And I think that's, like, really fair. I think that, like, we all get to have our experience and. And, you know, if someone has an abortion and doesn't feel guilt or shame or sadness or regret. That's not because they're not a caring person. That's not because they're not a loving person. It's not because, you know, it's not because, you know, they're not a feeling person.

[15:43] CASSANDRA NEYENESCH: Did you feel his judgment of you impacting you in spite of knowing all those things?

[15:50] SARAH WHITMAN SALKIN: Yeah. It was as though, as though he didn't know those. Like, as though suddenly there was, like, this new side of me, you know? Like, or maybe, maybe that's not it. Maybe it's like that there was, there's always been a practical side to me, and maybe that's something that's harder for him, and so it's something he liked less in me.

[16:28] CASSANDRA NEYENESCH: It feels to me like there's a patriarchal element there, too, right, where women are not supposed to be rational beings.

[16:36] SARAH WHITMAN SALKIN: Yeah. I mean, I'm, you know, there was the fact that I was, and again, we're good friends, and I really, I have a tremendous amount of love for him still, and I like him a lot, and I loved him when I married him, but, like, it's wild to me that I was married. Like, and, like, you know, we had a, we really care, we cared about each other so much. We really loved each other, and we had a beautiful wedding, and we really performed, like, all of the, all of the traditional heteronormative values of it all. And, you know, I think the idea then, that was like, well, now we're married and now we have kids, and to disrupt that, right, for me to say, like, actually, like, I don't, I'm still figuring out, like, what I want to do for work. I'm still figuring out how I want to live. Like, I'm still figuring out, like, what our dynamic looks like. What is our dynamic as married people? Does that change our relationship in some way? But that's like, yeah, it undermines some of the power dynamics of those structures.

[18:13] CASSANDRA NEYENESCH: Did you ever imagine what it would have been like if you had not been able to get an abortion?

[18:20] SARAH WHITMAN SALKIN: Um, not really, actually. Um, I have always assumed that I would have access to abortion. Um, and I think part of that is, like, sort of my mother's insistence that, like, you will always have access to abortion, even though, you know, she was very much, very much alive pre row. I think there was this idea that, like, this is we all, we all deserve access to this. And, like, there will be no, there will never be a question that this is something that you can, you know, even no matter how old you are, no matter how much money you have, like, there, you know, you'll always be able to get this.

[19:17] CASSANDRA NEYENESCH: How is your mother feeling now that Ro's been struck down?

[19:23] SARAH WHITMAN SALKIN: She's really upset, and I think she's really upset, and I think she feels sort of powerless, you know, and I also think that she's, you know, she's like a nonviolent person. She has good radical politics and also wants to, you know, wants the systems to work and, you know, so she's not gonna. She likes, I think she feels really inspired by, like, the Janes, but she would never, especially at her age now, do something like that. So I've been trying to help her think of ways that she could participate in assisting people get aborted people who need abortions without, like, having to do something that felt too scary for her. But she's really, she's really upset. And I remember right after Dobbs talking to her, and she was saying that she was speaking with some friends of hers and people were sort of like, oh, yeah, that. That issue doesn't really affect me. Right? Like, oh, I've gone through menopause or I don't have daughters, and so, yeah, that doesn't really affect me. And she felt, I think those conversations left her feeling pretty alienated from her community.

[21:18] CASSANDRA NEYENESCH: Was her abortion before Roe?

[21:20] SARAH WHITMAN SALKIN: No, it was nothing.

[21:24] CASSANDRA NEYENESCH: Do you think if abortion had been illegal at the time you need an abortion, you would have sought an illegal abortion?

[21:34] SARAH WHITMAN SALKIN: No. Well, I don't know. I think if abortion had been illegal when my mother needed an abortion, she would not have found her way to an abortion. She would have. She would have, I think, had that baby. And so I think there's just a pretty good chance that I wouldn't be here, you know, I think just history would have just been very different. Right. And I think, yeah, I think probably if. Yeah, I really have no idea. I think, you know, one of the things about abortion being legal and accessible is that it allows a person to say, I can decide to go do this thing, rather than I need to engage a lot of people to support me in order to go do this thing. Right? Like, no matter how sort of on the fence my husband was at the time, and, you know, like, ultimately it didn't really matter. Like, I could have gone by myself, and I'm glad he came with me, you know, and took care of me. That really meant so much to me, but, like, I didn't need him, and if it had been illegal, then I would have. I would have needed to travel somewhere, I would have needed more money. I would have needed, you know, I don't know. I would have needed a lot more. And so then I'm just sort of imagining, like, you know, me saying, like, I'm willing to take on these risks and someone else who I'm relying on in that situation saying, oh, I'm not. And that somehow ending the conversation. Right, right. It really, like, sort of strips you of your independent agency.

[23:47] CASSANDRA NEYENESCH: Yeah. Did you tell anyone else beside your husband or your mother at the time?

[23:54] SARAH WHITMAN SALKIN: I told my sister and I told friends. I don't remember, like, who, but it didn't feel. I definitely told people. I didn't tell my dad, and I still haven't told my dad. And even before I came here, I talked to him a couple days ago, and he was like, what are you up to this weekend? And I didn't mention it. I thought about it, and I didn't, which just continues to feel like a very weird, weird thing to not be talking about with him.

[24:43] CASSANDRA NEYENESCH: But why do you think you haven't told him?

[24:50] SARAH WHITMAN SALKIN: I think he'd really like grandchildren, and that's not something I'm gonna do for him. And I think there's a part of me that wishes he could have that without me having to pay for it. You know, I wish we could have both realities. So I think it would make him sad. Yeah, I think it would make him really sad. I. And I don't really want to do that to him.

[25:20] CASSANDRA NEYENESCH: So you're pretty sure your mom didn't tell him?

[25:23] SARAH WHITMAN SALKIN: Yeah. Yeah.

[25:28] CASSANDRA NEYENESCH: What would you want to say to somebody who's thinking about getting an abortion?

[25:34] SARAH WHITMAN SALKIN: You should probably do it. Yeah.

[25:40] CASSANDRA NEYENESCH: Because.

[25:45] SARAH WHITMAN SALKIN: Because not wanting to do something is a good reason for not doing it. And I think that lots of people who can get pregnant, and particularly women, are really told that, like, they need a lot of reasons why they should do things. You need to, like, build a case for yourself around the things you want, the decisions you make. You have to justify a lot of stuff. And, like, I think not wanting to do something is a really good reason for choosing not to do something. And if you're thinking, I don't think I want to have a child now and for the rest of my life in this moment, then, like, yeah, I think that's a good decision. And, you know, if. If that helps you set goals for the future, right? Like, if you're debating whether or not to have an abortion because you think, well, someday I want children, right?

[27:13] CASSANDRA NEYENESCH: Yeah.

[27:14] SARAH WHITMAN SALKIN: Like, then think about, like, what would have to be different in your life in order for you to not think this is. This might be a bad idea right now. Right. What would have to change? Like, what would you need in order to feel better about deciding to have a child now and then, like, figure out how to do those things, and then, you know, you can get pregnant, so try again. Right. Like, I think it's a lot easier to try again if you've accidentally gotten pregnant than to stop being a parent once you've accidentally had a child.

[27:54] CASSANDRA NEYENESCH: Did you feel changed by the experience?

[27:59] SARAH WHITMAN SALKIN: Mmm, I don't know. I have a tendency towards self righteousness. I can be. I can be a real know it all. And I think this may be sort of solidified that, like, this was another place where I felt that. And I think, like, in a pretty profound way, like, this makes me feel my decision in the course of my life, my decision to have an abortion, given the course of my life. I feel pretty. I feel pretty correct that I did the right thing. And I think I'm working now on trying to be a less self righteous know it all.

[29:01] CASSANDRA NEYENESCH: But do you mean also in terms of, like, solidifying your feelings about the importance of reproductive rights as well, or.

[29:12] SARAH WHITMAN SALKIN: No, I think I've always felt really clear about that. I don't think it changed me very much, actually. I don't. I mean, I think I can, like, find things that changed in me, but, like, I think I always believed that abortion should be available to people and that it should be free and that you should just be able to go make that decision for yourself and that that's a decision that a person should be able to make for themselves for whatever reasons. And, like, that's. I still feel that way, and I don't like. And I think, you know, according to my mother, when I was a child, like, having an abortion is not an emotional experience for everyone. And then I had an abortion, and I was like, yeah, this was not an emotional experience for me. And I don't know, I feel really. I know not everyone feels that way, but, yeah, I'm not sure it changed. Changed a lot.

[30:26] CASSANDRA NEYENESCH: I can say from having done heard a lot of people's stories that a lot of people feel totally okay about it.

[30:33] SARAH WHITMAN SALKIN: Yeah.

[30:35] CASSANDRA NEYENESCH: And it's really interesting to me that you were with someone who was not okay with you being okay.

[30:45] SARAH WHITMAN SALKIN: Yeah.

[30:46] CASSANDRA NEYENESCH: That sounds really hard.

[30:48] SARAH WHITMAN SALKIN: Yeah.

[30:50] CASSANDRA NEYENESCH: Did you feel like you learned anything from the experience?

[30:58] SARAH WHITMAN SALKIN: Yeah, I learned a lot. I think I learned a lot about the dynamic in my marriage, and I think there was a lot of stuff in there that I didn't really it took me a while to, like, really understand it, but I think I learned a lot about that and I didn't like it. And, yeah, I mean, I learned about the experience of having an abortion, which I had never done before. It was a new experience. And so, like now when I, you know, counsel young people who need abortions, I have some idea of what, what we're all talking about. You know, I understand it in a way that, like, you know, I don't think you have to live through something to provide support to someone around that issue at all. But I do have an understanding of this that feels helpful.

[32:07] CASSANDRA NEYENESCH: What do you say to them?

[32:10] SARAH WHITMAN SALKIN: Oh, I just, I just make space for them to explore all the things they're thinking without any judgment in any direction.

[32:23] CASSANDRA NEYENESCH: Do you ever feel tempted to offer them?

[32:25] SARAH WHITMAN SALKIN: All the time. Yeah. Right. When they say, I'm trying to decide what to do, I might want to have an abortion, my instinct is always to say, definitely have an abortion. And that is, that's not my job, so I don't do that.

[32:45] CASSANDRA NEYENESCH: What would you say to people who think abortion is murder?

[32:55] SARAH WHITMAN SALKIN: I would say, okay, you're free to think that. I don't know. I mean, I don't think you can change someone's mind about that. I don't think you can say, is it a baby? Is it a cluster of cells? Does it matter? Like, I don't think the science behind it is going to change anyone's mind. Right. But I don't, I think all those arguments are really, I don't know what the term is like. They're really disingenuous because, yeah, maybe abortion is murder. We also know that the prison industrial complex is murder. We also know that the military industrial complex is murder. We know that factory farming is murderous. There are a lot of things, we know that Amazon warehouses are murder. There are a lot of things around us that we all rely on that are hurting people and are killing people. And poverty is murder and is child murder. The people who are saying abortion is murder are not also out in the streets doing what they can to end child poverty in this country or doing what they can to raise the minimum wage or help workers organize or reduce the military budget. And so I think it's really disingenuous. And I think if people have that opinion, then, you know, go have it inside somewhere. I don't know.

[34:41] CASSANDRA NEYENESCH: Do you have a sense or a theory about what the deeper thing is? It's just a question I'm always wondering.

[34:50] SARAH WHITMAN SALKIN: Yeah.

[34:51] CASSANDRA NEYENESCH: Yeah.

[34:51] SARAH WHITMAN SALKIN: I mean, I think it's just, I think it's just control and power, you know, and, you know, controlling people's bodies and controlling people's ability to have sovereignty over their bodies and deciding how to spend time with their bodies. Right. And what to do with and to their bodies and who their bodies can engage with. Like, I think just this policing of bodies is, you know, it's not just limited to abortion. It's like we see it in homophobic and transphobic legislation. We see it in anti sex worker legislation. It's all tied, you know, it's all tied up in controlling people's bodies. And, like, the bodies that are being controlled are primarily the bodies of, you know, women and queer people and trans people and people of color. And, you know, if your goal is a white ethnostate, then, yeah, controlling those bodies is going to become a priority for you. And I think for those of us who are not interested in living in a white ethnostate, a white supremacist ethno state, then, like, it becomes really important to fight against those things, to fight against that control.

[36:36] CASSANDRA NEYENESCH: Has your ex ever acknowledged that it was unfair of him to judge you?

[36:45] SARAH WHITMAN SALKIN: In the last year of our marriage, we were watching a movie and one of the characters has an abortion. And he got really emotional and he said, I want you to know I forgive you for having an abortion. And, uh, I don't really remember how I reacted, but, like, ugh, it makes me feel bad thinking about that. Like.

[37:32] CASSANDRA NEYENESCH: Makes me feel bad too.

[37:35] SARAH WHITMAN SALKIN: Yeah. Wow.

[37:43] CASSANDRA NEYENESCH: So I feel like you kind of answered this question, but looking back on it now and, you know, looking at your decision, what are some of the reasons that you feel that it was the right decision for you?

[38:02] SARAH WHITMAN SALKIN: All the reasons, like, my life is very different than it was then. Right. This is eleven years ago. My life is very different. And, like, my life is really good. Like, I have a job that I really love and I live in a place I really love and I have a community that I really love. And I'm, like, experiencing fulfillment in ways that, like, I didn't really anticipate. My life does not look like that sort of that patriarchal trad fantasy that we were talking about before. And, like, I feel pretty good about that. It's a better fit for me. And I know people who have children who are doing what they can to, you know, undo those structures and sort of live differently, but I don't really think I would have been able to. And so I feel really grateful that my younger self had the wisdom and the foresight to take care of me.

[39:17] CASSANDRA NEYENESCH: Yeah. Yeah. I don't want to editorialize too much, but I do feel like a lot of this discussion around abortion is very irrational and immature, and there's no acknowledgement that a lot of times, we're sort of balancing one thing against another in life. So I just really admire that you were able to think in a very straightforward, rational, ethical way and make the best decision for yourself, and therefore, for the people around you as well.

[39:51] SARAH WHITMAN SALKIN: Yeah. And I think, like, part of that. I mean, I know I sort of said this at the beginning, but I think part of that is, like, having this voice from my mother in my head for so many years just normalizing abortion and like that, and just like, yeah, you're. Everyone does it, and it's not. And it's a good thing. Everyone does it, and it's not even. It's a good thing. It's not a good thing or a bad thing. It's just. It's just what you do in this situation. And so I feel like that's why storytelling is really important, because I think a lot of people don't have people in their lives who are presenting them with that voice. And, like, if. I don't know, I think we need just a full. A full range of experiences to be shared around this.

[40:45] CASSANDRA NEYENESCH: Well, thank you so much for sharing your story. Tori, do you have any questions for me?

[40:52] SARAH WHITMAN SALKIN: I mean, yeah. Yeah, I have so many questions for you. I don't know if we have time, but I'm sort of. I'm curious, like, how did you come to organize this?

[41:05] CASSANDRA NEYENESCH: Well, I had a sort of a. It sounds hokey, but almost like a vision. When I heard, you know, when Amy Coney Barrett Washington appointed and SBA was passed in Texas, it was like, a year ago last spring. Before. Year before that, I kind of knew. I knew what was going to happen. And my friend Kristen Clifford is an artist who's been doing stuff around reproductive rights for a long time. And we were talking, and I thought, why don't we do something ahead of it for a change? So I was just sitting in my house, and I thought, I want to organize an abortion story festival. And I had this vision of, like, people would be telling their stories, and people would be doing art and performance about it. And so I was just like, all right, I'm gonna do it. Which is not how I am normally at all. I really feel like it was. I was channeling something. I don't know, but so I just started organizing it, and a friend of mine offered me her gallery for the weekend. So that was very crucial. It was very generous. And. Yeah. And so, in May, by coincidence, four days after the draft was leaked, the Supreme Court draft was leaked on Dobbs. I had the festival, and it was. Yeah, it was really great. And I did something with StoryCorps, with. With Bella. We had five storytellers in the gallery, and we did. We had an opening with comedians telling their abortion stories. And we had a day in Tompkins Square park, where people were invited to come and tell their abortion stories live. And because of the leaked draft opinion, a lot of older people came out to tell pre rose stories with just so much anger and grief. And I didn't really think about it. I'm sure as a therapist, you've thought about it a lot, but there was just so much re traumatization from having already felt that this was not something they would have to see again. And then the stories they were telling were so horrifying that even those of us who were abortion rights activists were quite shocked. And so I started thinking, oh, you know, I want to do more to get these stories out in front of people. I think that was the part of the festival that was most important to me because it was so impactful. And I do think a lot of people just don't realize, when you take away reproductive choice, what a brutal thing that is. Like, how truly barbaric and what people are driven to, because they will seek out abortions no matter what, and you're forcing them to do it in ways that will hurt them, and you are creating. I hope this is not the case now because of the pills, but, you know, in the past, it created a criminal underground of people who didn't care about the people's health that they were giving abortions to. And many people died of. And even if they didn't, it was so traumatizing and horrible and terrifying. But to go back even further, I should mention that I grew up listening to my mother's stories about her abortion, and also about helping a friend get an abortion in Tijuana in 1960. So I think I'm very identified with those stories. Kind of like with your mom, and just feeling like just the cruelty of what's happening now is just something I can't stand for, you know? And the people who are. It's gonna hurt are the people who can least afford it. Yeah, so that's. Yeah, that's how I got it started, with this. And then Bella approached me a few months ago and said, let's do another one.

[45:13] SARAH WHITMAN SALKIN: Well, thanks.

[45:14] CASSANDRA NEYENESCH: Yeah. Thank you so much for coming.

[45:17] SARAH WHITMAN SALKIN: This is really good.

[45:18] CASSANDRA NEYENESCH: Yeah, it was wonderful. I really appreciate hearing your story.

[45:22] SARAH WHITMAN SALKIN: I really appreciate you organizing this. Thank.