Peter Hiller and Celeste Williams

00:01 Good morning. My name is Peter Hiller. I am 63 years old today is August 21st, 2015. We are at the Marina Library in Marina, California.

00:16 My name is Celeste Williams. I'm 65 years old. It's August 21st. 2015. I'm also at the Marina California library.

00:27 So could you please introduce yourself and tell us who is the storycorps interview about?

00:33 Thank you. For first of all, I appreciate this opportunity on the part of story quarters to tell a story. This is my name again is Peter Hiller. I am the Joe Mora trust collection curator. And in that capacity of I've had the pleasure over most of the last 20 years to be involved in discovering the lifespan adventures and artistic achievements of a gentleman by the name of Joe Mora.

01:04 How what's a little unusual perhaps about this interview situation is said unfortunately, I have never had the opportunity to meet Joe Mora he was born in 1876 and he passed away in 1947. But his word came to my attention upon my moving to the Monterey Peninsula in California and over. Of time beginning to see more and more evidence of his artistic achievements.

01:37 What brings me here today is my continued efforts to bring his career to the attention of the public eye as I began to learn more about him. I became more and more fascinated with his the quality of his artwork the variety of his artwork.

01:58 Him as a person and consequently, I have endeavored to continue to bring that those achievements and those qualities to the viewing public.

02:13 So as you got interested in Jomar what led to further work with his heart working telling the public about him through living in this community. I begin to see more and more evidence of his work and my own professional background is that as of an art teacher and I was seeing variety of work done by him in the most of it was a femoral material that were they were Prince of different menus for example, or maps that you created that he called carts and the more and more I saw the more and more intrigued I became with the who this person was and

02:57 Yeah, and it led me to after the scene at living in the community long enough and seen enough of his work and I decided I wanted to see more I was just felt like I was seeing just bits and pieces and I had a sense that there was a treasure drove out there in the world. So what is curd to me the moment that the light bulb went off with my realizing that there's a venue to do that would be to organize a museum exhibit about his work.

03:30 And I happen to know the director of our local Museum the Monterey museum of art at the time his name was Richard gadd and I went to Richard and I made a proposal I said you don't even we have this wonderful talented person in our community or the legacy of of his achievements are in the community and wouldn't it be interesting to have extensive retrospective exhibit of his work to give people an opportunity to really get to know what he did over the course of his career and Richard didn't think about it very long. Hey, you finally turned to me and said the other let's do it again. So that's that changed my life to certain extent in that I then spent about the next two years and in addition to my full-time teaching work, but I also then became a museum curator and I spent the next two years organizing that exhibition.

04:30 I'm researching Jose life finding where his work was throughout the United States making contacts visiting museums in archives all in the intent of trying to borrow material for this exhibit at the same time. I introduced myself to Joe's son Joey who at the time lived in Pebble Beach and was trying to retire he actually ended up living to be 91 years old is Derek actually 97 years old cuz me and I introduced myself to him because I wanted to proceed with this project with his blessing and I knew that to me that was very important. I didn't want to step on anybody's toes and toy, you know, it's a result of that an invitation or introduction. We then actually became good friends and Van Dyke.

05:30 Can you to visit with him in spite of it in addition to organizing the material for the exhibit borrowing things from his collection? We also began of social relationship in and I would visit with him on and off for the rest of his life. That's so that that exhibit ended up breaking attendance records at the Museum. It was very successful and continues to be the largest gathering of material about Joe Morris life to date. However, I hope that that will change in the future. I'm always hoping for another bigger one and it's been almost 15 years now.

06:15 So that it did that kind of puts the question in the in of the interview about him into the context in terms of my life. And what's been amazing is that I've continued to discover more about him over the years and I had the Good Fortune of knowing people who were involved with the legal trust aspects of the family and they say they witness the work that I did and they appreciated the intent and the quality that I put into it. So they have continued to let me you work in the capacity of the trust collection curator. And then in that design, what I try to do is again just to bring Jose work to the attention of the public are in exhibits in in writing that I do about him. Try to publish. You know, I look for any publishing opportunities.

07:14 Beyond kind of actors are Clearing House has people bringing his work to my attention that I have a website about him and I provide the rights of people want to use his art material for publication. I'm the one who grants the rights to that. So it's been an ongoing relationship about him and and yet ironically I never had the pleasure of meeting him. So could you tell us about Jose family background was a child of the worlds. I think it's fair to say his father was Catalan. His mother was French with Joe is actually born in Uruguay and live there only for a few years before the family decided to move to the east coast of the United States. They lived and worked in the Boston area for a while in New Jersey as well. And that's pretty much where joke

08:14 Quizzes on the east coast of the United States he went to school there grade school and then also studied art with the number of different institutions and he's also learned from his father. His father was a classical sculpture. His older brother was a classical painters. So there was I think art in at least the male genes of the family and to Joe started his artistic career at a very young age. We fortunately in the archives have notebooks that he do pictures in and also wrote stories and then go back to his childhood. So it was it was something he was engaged in from the time. He was very young.

09:04 And could you tell us about the beginning of his professional career took place in the Boston area? His first real artistic income-producing work was as an illustrator for the Boston Herald newspaper. This is back in the days before photographs were used as illustrations in newspaper's suit in the days. The Joe's career started with the herald he would actually illustrate new scenes. So the newspaper would send him out to the scene of the crime or to the heart of the action in the end the new story and he would drop pictures based on that and those who would become the illustrations in the newspaper over. Of time. His career also evolved into illustrating children's books, and he had a wonderful relationship initially at least with several Publishers in that area and he would tell us

10:04 Books that they were publishing and these were fairly well known books like Aesop's Fables and things like that that over. Of time have been illustrated by number of different people Tom Joe. In fact was one of those who did that and that was it was an important job for him in terms of income-producing and really began his professional career. He also works with his father again, who was the Sculptor

10:36 On some of his projects, but they would so joke, it would sort of acted in the net Prentice situation there and learned a lot from his dad.

10:46 What Prop Joe to the West Coast told me how I know this was one of my favorite aspects of getting to know Joe Joe son Joey was that he would tell me stories about his dad and he never failed to tell the stories without a smile on his face and a little twinkle in his eye and he had a pure deep love for free calling because he loved his father and the stories about his father. It would a story about Joe coming. Well, first of all, I put in a little more in context of Joe beans heard of a person of the world heat. He ended up by the time he passed away speaking 7 languages. So he had an interest in worldly cultures and I think you're that's hard to imagine that some of that didn't have to do with his father being you do from Spain and smother.

11:46 I'll be in French and him having been born in Uruguay. So he had this wonderful kind of Gumbo of of the ethnic background. He then he also studied and apparently cording to Joey. He attended the Buffalo Bill Wild West show young person.

12:09 And that was a traveling exhibit Festival. Just just one way to describe it that was found around the United States Buffalo Bill gathered people from all over the United States to participate in this Joe saw this and I think that's part of what it the fire for him to travel West and he had an interest in what we call Cowboys and Indians and he wanted to see the American West before it changed. He had a sense that it was changing him until he he set a goal for himself to go see the snake dance in Arizona that takes place on the Hopi. Mesas.

12:53 So he actually said out he was old enough. He didn't enough money. He wrote to his newspaper work, excuse me that he was able to go do that. And you said out by himself and he came to Arizona in the West End discovered. He had missed the timing of that ceremony. The ceremony takes place on a seasonal basis as opposed to a calendar basis that were used to in so he just realized he had missed it. But he he took advantage of being in California became a little further west and he started to study and learn the ways of the American Cowboy and then also the perfect Heroes of California.

13:39 So he he spent time in California was kind of biting this time with the thought of mind. He would try again the following year.

13:49 He spend time in the Santa Ynez Valley. He lived on the Donahue Ranch. He observed and participated with The Vaqueros who were the active horse Horseman of the time and he absorbed all of this experience as a first-hand experience. He actually he live that life as opposed to just studying and reading about it in and he learned a tremendous amount to to the extent that he later in his life was able to write a book that is still considered. You don't want to the benchmarks about the subject to this day. So while he was in California to the any use of zorbing the lifestyle he also decided he wanted to visit in and observes the California missions. So he said he's constantly gathering information and he you really loved history. It's a

14:49 Continuous theme throughout his work he

14:53 And particularly in the last half of his life California history is really really strong theme in his work. So we a couple of different Adventures that he undertook while he was here. The first of which was actually riding the California mission trail and he started out in this was the summer of 1903 and he rode from the Santa Ynez Valley to Santa Barbara on his horse. He then got on a boat with his horse and they sailed down to San Diego and then Joe got off then and they turned around and came back and with little more attention Sketchbook a journal.

15:38 A camera one of the first Kodak cameras and his bedroll. He then rode the California mission trail back up to the Santa Ynez and central California area. He had a copy of crespi's diary with him. Yeah, which was in Spanish. But Joe spoke Spanish through his father's lineage and so he was able to translate it and he is said to of felt like he was actually riding in the same Footprints as Father Serra had and Portola had when they first came to California and established the Mission Trail,

16:20 So that was the whole notion of California became really ingrained into and he then he that he wasn't he still had the an interest in Arizona in in Hopi and and seeing the navajos and so he then got together with a friend of his from Back East to come to California mission ride was over. He been kind of the living in the Bay Area a little bit and visiting family friends, but he decided it was time to head back to Arizona and try again. So he's in with got in the Studebaker wagon, which was the precursor for the automobile. But at the time was like a Buckboard wagon couple of mules name Tom and Jerry and off they went from the San Jose area across California to Yosemite be spent about 2 weeks.

17:19 In Yosemite explored it extensively had a wonderful time and then continued on to Arizona the part of what's wonderful about his wife and his wherewithal was that he kept journals of these Expeditions. And so we have we're left with his wonderful primary source material where we can read about his day-to-day adventures and he also would create art on these trips and both the Mission Trail and and the trip to Arizona.

17:56 Where he Yong two pictures and took photographs and then did corresponding writing and so we've got the wonderful the archive contains a wonderful record of of those trips in and it works wonderful for a researcher has a story and is is knowing that it's the primary source material. I mean, it was all based on his actual experiences.

18:20 So then he ends up in Arizona and he decides he likes it. He stays for about two-and-a-half years. He learns to speak Hopi. He learns to speak Navajo Witcher 2 my are both very complicated languages and he would become so comfortable in the community where he's staying that he actually takes some of the Navajo go on a hunting trip and he acts as the guide and that's probably contrary to what you might expect would happen. But he was so knowledgeable about not only weapons but also animals and hunting

19:04 That he was able to do that and they were very appreciative of his abilities and willing to go along and they actually ended up giving him an honorary name as a result of the time that you spent there and he created a wonderful portfolios of work while he was there. He did some beautiful pen-and-ink drawings. He did some beautiful watercolors which are now housed in the Smithsonian Institute those the subject of those were Kachina figures. He was so astute as his observation powers that he did the drawings that the watercolors initially and then came to find out that they had changed some of their regalia that they were wearing when he realized that he tore up the painting so you're done and he convinced them to pose for him again in an authentic.

20:00 Manner so that he could then do this drawings and paintings more authentically and they were again willing to do so and he finally got to a point where he again after two and a half years where he wrote to his parents and he said if I don't leave here today, I'm going to spend the rest of my life here. He was that in a merge with what where he was and the people he was with him and I think that says a lot about him as a person that he all of the different cultural situations he found himself in

20:37 He got involved with a great deal of depth and it was really important to him to learn about the cultures where he was and learn about the situations and in a very overall in a complex manner as opposed to just you know, skimming across the surface of something in and that it was too for the really for the rest of his life.

21:03 Can you tell us about Jose immediate family the notion that was pulling at his heartstrings while he was in his own. It was a woman he had met in the San Jose area and soap. I'm deciding to leave Arizona and head back to San Jose. He had in the back of his mind Grace Needham who he had met and they got back together again. And in fact, they ended up then getting married shortly thereafter. They them had two children Joey and Patti Joe was the wonderful wonderful parent to from everything. Joey told me I never had the chance to meet Patty. She passed away before I got involved with Joe Mora but Joey again.

22:03 Every time he told stories about his dad it was with a twinkle in his eye and just you know, the love of of having had Joe as a father.

22:14 And Joe was very very conscientious father. And and not only did he

22:21 Provide for his family but in and that's that's a rare situation where someone is with an artistic vocation is able to support themselves hidden in Joe never had any income producing jobs that weren't related to his artistic background. So it was he he commissioned he did work on commission with other people. He sold work that he did. He had Gallery acts of exhibitions, but all of the income that he ever produced and that also included bartering in some cases with people where he would trade services but it all came from his artistic prowess and his artistic background. And again that's very rare earth in an artist can support themselves. Let alone a wife and two children and he was able to do that.

23:19 And what do you think? We're his tell us about Jose major artistic accomplishments often creativity in the visual arts in one form or another.

23:37 And so he was able to make a living initially through his newspaper work. The other aspect of that the developed was a comic that he did for the Boston Herald where he did a full page comic on Sundays that that were used to seeing, you know, two or three or four even comic strips in this color Sunday comics. Will Joe was given a dedicated full page of the pair of the Boston Herald and he did a series that he called animal dumb that went on for about a year and he actually was doing some of that work while he was in Arizona and so he would ship the results back to to Boston. To be published, but he not only Illustrated these columns are Comics, but he also wrote the verse that went along with them.

24:31 Cancel that again. Created some income for him. He was doing original one-of-a-kind artwork at the time occasionally those who would sell.

24:42 And then went once he got back to the San Francisco Bay Area his father moved and mother moved to that area and then he began to work with his dad again still kind of a promising but this was on sculptural work and they have some wonderful commissions that still exists to this day on various buildings in the San Francisco area. There's a sculptures. It's in Santa Clara that they worked on together. And so this is just a TimeWise. This isn't about of 1905 to 19 actually 1910 to 1915. And then Joe's dad passed away shortly thereafter and Joe finished those commissions, but together they worked on buildings in Los Angeles and in San Francisco.

25:34 Beyond again it was a real learning opportunity for Joe.

25:39 But it also started to help him kind of in the business of Art and at that time he also became a member of the Bohemian Club in San Francisco, which is a private club. It started out with a very strong artistic leaning. There were he met with a very important people there at the politicians as well as artists and those connections that he made them really helped him throughout the rest of his life in terms of providing other commissions for him as he grew through his career and and continue to raise a family it's over and that and actually that time hit once his father passed away. He made a decision that he really wanted to continue with an artistic life and particularly. He said he felt sculpture was

26:37 What's the most important artistic medium to him and so he was able to continue to get I'll seek out commissions and and get hired for various jobs along those lines.

26:51 How did Joe end up in Monterey County is a result of a piece that he did in San Francisco and he that still exists. He was commissioned to do a sculpture in honor of Cervantes and the sculpture featured Don Quixote.

27:12 It's currently and it was originally intended to be housed next to the DeYoung Museum in San Francisco. And it currently still resides in that same place was that commission which was offered on behalf of a couple of San Francisco citizens who had a Spanish background and they made the connection with Joe Rogan and his lineage should offer to fit together to do this piece, which was then viewed and discovered by father Remo Ramon mastry's who was the presiding chaplain at the Carmel Mission.

27:54 Ms. Trees had in mind to do a memorial piece in honor of Father Serra. And once he discovered Jose abilities, he went to Joe and asked him if it was a commission he would be interested in participating in and Joe immediately jumped at the idea This Is Us in about 1920 Joe had just finished training in the military during the first world war. He finished that training literally days before the war ended so he never actually saw service, but he then was grateful to be able to come home in one piece and and get back together with his family. And so that when this commission was offered Joe jumped at the opportunity and it resulted in the family moving to the Carmel area where they ended up spending the rest of their lives and

28:54 Just spent about three years working on that cenotaph that still resides in the Carmel Mission Inn in a building now called the more more chapel and Jose said to have described that piece as being the triumphant sculptural achievement of his career.

29:19 And is there anything else you'd like to tell us about Joe Mora railroad routes for one of the things I love about talking about you or more is that every time I have this opportunity I can take to tell the story from a different perspective and he did and that I always attributed to him as being such a versatile person and his artistic talents were so far-reaching. We haven't mentioned the fact that he was he did etchings on copper plates and so printed their efforts of those he was he designed

30:01 50-cent piece that is still it's become a collector's item, but it was US currency that was done on celebration of California's 75th Anniversary. He it was a writer and an excellent writer. I mentioned earlier that to Premier books that he wrote one was called trail dust and saddle leather and that was about the American Cowboy. The other was called California knows about the Vaquero in California and he is his son Joey describe to me to Joe sat down at the typewriter and just about literally type these manuscripts out from start to finish almost at one sitting. I know it was the information flowed from Joe so naturally because he had learned it so so completely and on the 1st and bases.

30:58 That he was able to put it into words and it the books are the books are no longer in print there are only available on the aftermarket, but they still maintain their integrity in terms to the factual nature of the information presented at they also are written in a very comfortable accessible manner so that anybody without even any background in the subject area could sit down and read these and feel very comfortable, you know learning about the those two particular times in American history and it's very comfortable Easy Flow to the to Joe's writing style. He also wrote an illustrated a children's book at least two to children's books. One of them is called but you but you Cottontail and the other was called chippy to munch, but you bet she Cottontail had a very

31:58 Difficult publishing history and that the Joe Illustrated your created the spectacular illustrations. He wrote the story.

32:10 Is well and then his son Joey went about trying to have the book published for him and I have a final in the archives that would kind of breaks your heart and that you're full of rejection letters. And again, this was in about the 1930s that they were making that publish in effort and for one reason or another or each publisher rejected the book and it was just it was very very sad and into the point word in some cases. They thought the writing maybe was too highbrow. And so then Joe rewrote it and he ended up writing three different versions of the tax. Didn't you know, what different reading levels for each version, but again, they couldn't find anybody to take it on as a publication.

33:00 So what what a wonderful wedding fortunately happened years later is that Joe had success in publishing his other two books the trail dust in California's and those were published right near the end of his life. In fact California's. He just finished writing California was before he passed away and they and it was the publishing contract was already in place. So that went through I should also mention he Illustrated both of those books as well as publishing as writing them. But then many years later that those books sold out in their initial publication runs and many years later Joe junior was approached by a publisher to republish those books and Joey never forgot a thing and so he thought well, yes. I'm I'm supportive of the idea of republishing the two books, but I also have

34:00 This manuscript that I promised my dad. I would see published someday. And so the caveat to publishing trail dust in California's was that the publisher Dave Stockland also published by Givenchy Cottontail and heat Dave was thrilled to do that and he went about that and did a beautiful beautiful job of redoing the original to books. But then also publishing for the first time but your budgie Cottontail him. So it was it was a beautiful job and it was the story that Joey was very pleased to have loved to have seen that final publication of that.

34:42 So that's another another story in and then Joe also created dioramas. So he he worked not only on buildings and the decorative elements on buildings many of which are still in place. But he also did more detailed three-dimensional work that involve dioramas who one of which he did for the

35:12 He did for the world's fair that was on Treasure Island in San Francisco. That was a spectacular piece. That was about a hundred feet long if depicted the Portola Expedition through California. It was done in the scale of about 1 in to a foot and so it would had lighting the changed throughout the dioramas. So it went from morning to evening. And unfortunately that piece was destroyed in a fire fright at the end of the affair. And so it was never put on the enchanted Vin to put it on display later on in that opportunity never came about he also did diarrhea in honor of Will Rogers. Those are in, Houston, Oklahoma

36:06 Beyond

36:08 And then I haven't even mentioned those bronze sculpture work that he did until you this was something he did starting about mid life who created some beautiful bronze has most of the themes of those are our Western and they sure they're cowboys fun bucking Broncos and you know very much in the style of Frederic Remington or Charlie Russell and he exhibited those sand and continue to display those whenever he had opportunities.

36:40 So that's again and I'm sure that there are other things that he did as well. Then I'm not remembering but he was he was one of the things that was amazing about him is winning commission came his way if he didn't know how to fulfill that commission he would teach himself and immediately and then you know, what the idea of generating the income, but also you do learning something new himself.

37:10 Okay. Well, thank you so much for sharing about Jim Mora.