Joseph Engler and Kerry Slattery

Recorded January 22, 2009 Archived January 22, 2009 01:27:42 minutes
0:00 / 0:00
Id: SFB000152


Joseph Engler (65) talks to his daughter Kerry Slattery (36) about his life as a San Francisco Police officer

Subject Log / Time Code

Born at St. Mary’s Hospital. Father was a police officer, shot 2 weeks before he married Joe’s mother.
As a child, he was hit in the head with a baseball bat and went into a coma.
Talks about his time as a San Francisco police officer. Got into trouble for drinking, was put onto the stress unit.
Tells a story about an incident at Richmond Station in Golden Gate Park. Had heart attack the next day.
Gives his daughter advice about raising kids: must let them fail, but be there to support them
Looks forward to working with the Salvation Army
Coaching little league baseball is a way for him to give back the gift he squandered


  • Joseph Engler
  • Kerry Slattery

Recording Location

San Francisco StoryBooth


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00:04 My name is Joe angler. I'm 65 years old today's dates, January 22nd 2009. Where in San Francisco California and I'm being interviewed by Carrie my daughter.

00:19 My Name is Kerry Slattery I am 36 today's date is January 22nd 2009 where in San Francisco and I am interviewing my father

00:30 So Dad you recently turned 65, and this was my gift to you. So thank you for

00:38 Indulging that and considering the gift. So tell me a little bit about where you were born Francisco the, California.

00:52 And tell me a little bit about your parents in the family. You were born into an older brother and sister. Mom was a housewife and dad was a San Francisco police officer. The interesting thing about that was before they got married to explore. They got married my dad got shot in a robbery attempt by a couple of guys who they were able to arrest and put in jail and it was two weeks before the wedding and some people suggested they put the wedding off at mom said absolutely not and so they went ahead and they got married right on schedule with dad's arm in a sling and then after me there were

01:47 Three other kids my brother Eddie and more rain in Virginia.

01:56 Will you tell me a little bit more about the wedding was it with her extra attendance or extra attention because of the shooting that came off on?

02:12 Right on schedule, but they at home. I have a

02:18 A record, not a recording but it written recording of can we are radio show that was had 1939. That was at the time called Heroes of San Francisco is something in there was a whole story about the robbery and died in the marriage and and everything. I don't know many details about the wedding other than they got married, but it was a big deal then.

02:45 Okay. So this is where I will jump around a little bit you think with family was well established in San Francisco civil service. So can you tell me a little bit about them so that you're different aunts and uncles and then maybe one or two stories. He remember there was there were nine kids total there was Dad who San Francisco police officer. The oldest brother was George angler. George was a

03:13 He was a police detective in San Francisco for 17 years and he was in charge of the homicide detail back in the nineteen.

03:24 Twenties, I believe maybe thirties and George were tired after 17 years and and open a restaurant in San Francisco down on front and Washington Street a very successful restaurant for quite a while and ultimately George went to Arizona to live then he had a sister Marie. Marie was married with no kids and Marie.

03:53 She was an accountant turns out she was an accountant for many years. Did Joe alioto the mayor of San Francisco. She was his personal accountant and then there was Madeline who died of cancer fairly early and Madeline was a school teacher in San Francisco. And that was the girls and then there was Johnny Johnny was our next door neighbor growing up and Johnny was also in the police department. He was secretary the police commission. He was the captain he was acting chief of police for about a year and then retired as Chief inspector's of the police department as they said dad was a police Lieutenant who ran the burglary detail and then you had Phil Engler who was secretary to the Board of Supervisors for many years and a very good friend of Dianne Feinstein.

04:53 And then you had Tom Engler was the captain in the the fire department. He retired as the head of the arson detail.

05:03 Who else was making my favorite uncle Mickey was a real name was Henry angler and make a was the assistant postmaster for many years has San Francisco and had no kids, but just a great guy. Just stay a real kind nice man. There was Phil Phil and then come and then the one that was Bill dangler who Bill angler died. He was a maryknoll priest and he died diving into a frozen over like back and make sure we're back east and he saved the guy drove into save but then he couldn't get back out and he died and apparently there's a statue erected in his name back in.

05:56 The maryknoll place back east and I'm not sure the state that I cover him or why was Mickey your favorite got in a lot of trouble line and but he was a kind and you know, he was

06:15 Some people, you know, you can pull the wool over their eyes. You couldn't make it make it knew what was going on. He was just very patient, but that's that's them.

06:27 Phil Tom George John Joe. I think that's all so can you tell me a little bit now about your siblings?

06:37 My brother Bill Bill work for the

06:44 Don't work for a National Labor Relations Board for many years. My sister Jane was a RN in Marin County.

06:54 Both married with kids and then you had

06:59 You had Jenny.

07:02 Virginia who was married to a podiatrist and and subsequently they were divorced. She had two kids and lives up in Placerville. You had more in who lives in Australia.

07:18 And more than I probably got along the best and then you had my brother Eddie who died at 29.

07:24 From an accident and

07:29 You know that that was all my brothers and sisters. So you and Maureen were always close metamoran. Where was pretty close to understood.

07:40 Each other

07:42 So, can you tell me a little bit about my grandmother? So beyond the fact that she couldn't cook I didn't she could burn water and she was.

07:55 She was just a kind lady shait. I always got along good with mom probably cuz when I got I got hit in the head with a baseball bat when I was 10, and we're playing out in front of the house manager friend Jimmy Luverne and Eddie threw a ball and we both song about it and I missed and Jimmy mess but he hit my head and I ended up in a coma and was rushed to the hospital the next morning. They found me and they rushed me to the hospital in in at that time or injury, very few people had survived it, but it was a subdural hematoma. And so I was out for about 2 days and when I woke up,

08:44 You know, I guess that was a life-changing event for me because mom always after that. You know, I could do no wrong Mom. She was I guess felt guilty that you shouldn't do more of that night or something that ended up not being a good thing for me because I got away with murder over there the next number of years, but Mom was mom was the only thing mom tend to panic when when people got hurt she would just fall apart and go to pieces and I think that's why Morgan and I like Mom so much and Jane and Jenny kind of struggled with Mom, but she was a good lady. She was strictly a housewife and a very good tennis player when she was younger. So I understand new shoes play tennis with Alice marble, who is a great tennis player from San Francisco.

09:39 So anyway, that's Mom when I heard she was also very good Catholic and used to go to church every day. And is it true that she used to bring me donuts? And I'd sit at the front window and wait for her to come up the street and bring me a donut out of wherever there's a lot of stories. I've heard that I'm not aware of but working mom wants her to everybody, you know, Dad when Churchill on mom when Churchill. Yeah.

10:11 So the death story I'm not aware to tell me about my grandfather now. I did know so my grandmother had Alzheimer's so I didn't ever get to know her very closely. So I appreciate the stories, but I did get to know everyone time sitting on her front window. We lived across the street you grew up across the street from us, and we're sitting out there and it went down looking out the window and I see Mom or cross street.

10:40 And I waited and I waited and I waited she never came up to the door, but she never I never saw her go back cross-strait. So I open the front door and there was mom staying at the bottom and there's a joke about you know, you as you get older yet, you get to a flight of stairs. You can't remember whether you were just going up or just coming down with that was mom. She couldn't remember whether she had just left her was just going so I said Mom wants to come up shot hole know. I got to go home. So Alzheimer's devastated mom and as the years went on but go ahead.

11:16 Do what's your first childhood memory? If you look up if you think all the way back, what's the first thing you when I guess I was kind of a caretaker of mom from X. Very little I remember being 5 year 4 years old. No sitting at the kitchen table with Mom and there was an earthquake mom was terrified of earthquakes and I remember grabbing mom and tell her we don't worry. It'll be okay and and kind of being the mother to my mom or whatever I can take her, but that that happened when

11:55 You know when I was very young and then I see things on your childhood. What's your favorite or your happiest childhood memory?

12:07 Happiness

12:09 I just going to school. I'm on that. You know, I just like what I like being a kid. They tell stories that I used it, but I don't remember what they tell kindergarten over a lot in school, and I guess I must have been about 4 then and it would take me in and they'd have the recess and after recess everybody go to the classroom and I'd walk home.

12:33 I like recess. I always did I never particularly cared for school?

12:39 I heard you were good baseball player. When did you get into that? And how long did you play baseball when I was young when I was a freshman in high school it written. I don't know what that dislocated my hip or I did something and it really prevented me from playing sports in high school as pretty good athlete.

13:04 You know later on when I was in my twenties, I got a great friend of my Richie Shin asked me to to play for one of the semi-pro teams in in San Francisco. And and at that time I was caught up and drinking and partying and everything else and I I didn't follow up on it and I should have because I I I was pretty fair athlete and he looked at your childhood. Did you have a special friend or an important friend that you remember live down the street and I were great friends. What am I is the one I hit me in the head and I regret that as we got older. I lost contact with Jim Jim went to Vietnam and and it was gone for two years. And I think you know when he came back it was different. We just weren't good friends anymore for no particular reason. I just didn't see much of them. I had gotten married that might have been it.

14:04 Go ahead.

14:07 Okay, so moving or one more question about childhood and then we'll move into some fun facts, but what's the most important lesson from childhood? So if you learn anything while you were young and what kind of simple or profound what's your mom used to be one of those people, you know beauty is only skin deep in the end, but she used to have these little sayings that at the time I thought were a lot of things I meant nothing as I grow older. I realize they're all true, you know, you know it and I guess her mom I learn to be nice to people are you got more with sugar than you did with vinegar that was another of her great one and I like people to be nice to me. So I found that by being nice to people

15:01 People tend to be nice back to me.

15:04 Make sense. I seen that so okay just a few quick questions favorite sports.

15:15 Favorite holiday

15:17 Mr. Favorite season of the year favorite movie Brian's Song. I like that.

15:41 Favorite book

15:45 Probably the one that has the most effect on my life and it helped me the most is the book called Alcoholics, Anonymous.

15:54 And most importantly dad your favorite ice cream what you said? I'd never guessed Butter Brickle.

16:04 All right. So now a couple questions about working. So I always remember you enjoying your work, especially when you were in the stress unit says you look back on your career as a San Francisco police officer. What stands out and remains important to you?

16:17 And what are you most proud of in your career? Why was a policeman for 31 years?

16:23 So

16:26 In the first 12 years I was on the street and I enjoyed that cuz I got to interact with people and NFL has very good with people.

16:39 Then I got in trouble in the police department again tied into the drinking and everything else. And so I almost lost my job. I almost lost everything and so when I came back, somebody asked me to working in a call, the stress unit stress unit was the unit that dealt with officers with alcohol a drug problem.

17:00 And so I wasn't going to do it and I had a sponsor at the time of May 8th. Who said it's your obligation to do it, you know, you were asked to do it, you know, you can't say I know I said what I don't want to do it and he says well, okay. You asked my opinion. He said you I think you're stewing Isis, but I took a chance I wasn't big risk taker and for me, it was a chance cuz I had no idea keishin around it or anything else other than what I had learned from being an AA which seems to work for everything in life and

17:38 And I did it and I went into the unit and I started working on it. And I found that I I just had a knack for it and it may be a gift is a better word. I love dealing with people's feelings. I was I was

17:55 Probably pretty good at understanding what people were coming from and looking beyond what they said and did and looked at what was behind it such as fear in most cases. So I was able to help a lot of people again, I was I was put in a position where that was my job, but it was a gift because I got to do a lot for a lot of people over the years and I never saved anyone but I was like a tool that people could use to get what they needed. You had a partner named Kim and I think I met her when I was when I went back out on that street. I met her in the first time. I met her I think you were walking out of the restaurant we were in and she said it's nice to meet you and she said your father saved my life.

18:46 I'm sorry, but I think but I don't like I said, there's a lot of people think I saved their lives and all I did was give them the truth or help them see the tools to save their own lives. Just like somebody had done for me and

19:07 There are things emotionally this still upset me in there people that I could never give back the

19:20 That the Gioia III I've gotten out of being able to help other people it itch.

19:26 I can't even describe again. It's a gift but Kim was a special person to me. And when I went back out on the street after 11 years in the stress unit, and I want to talk a little bit more about stretching and then I'll tell you that when I got back out in the street. I went out to Richmond station and that's working out there and it turned out as working with Kim one day and we had a lot of laughs together. She was very funny in one day. I had to play baseball again. Unfortunately, I was 55 at the time and that but we've had the station 10 that I played for him and

20:07 I so we came back to the to the station where I work and then she says, you know, it's really pathetic and I said, what's that can and she says that baseball team of ours I said, yeah, we're not very good should know that's not what I meant. She says when the when the best guy in the team's 55 years old, that's not good. So I didn't know you're right about that. But Kim was one of those that came through the unit and I was able to help then one of the things that unit did for me was gave me an opportunity to start almost.

20:37 In San Francisco for sure, but even though people picked it up after I start it with with the help of other people was to start again at the dealt with police officers and their family members who had been through traumatic incidents shootings have been Partners killed killing suspects and different things and what I was able to do with those people was and I don't know where it came from. I don't know where I learned it but to get Beyond The Macho stuff and get to the funeral of the heart and soul of it in the feelings and everything and I was blessed with a unit that was 100% confidential so nobody knew what went on in there and and we were able

21:23 These were not alcohol and drug people these four cops everyday cops and over the years. I think we're able to get to probably 70 or 80 of them and it was so powerful than me sitting when we're getting it started. We put together some lunch as in her sitting in one lunch and there were about 15 cops have been through shootings over the years before hundred and so I

21:48 You know, we went around the room and I I said I don't know where this is going to go but father handing was there and and I said we're just going to start and we're going to each individual's going to tell the story what happened and how they felt about him. And who are these seemingly tough hard-nosed cops breaking down in tears and what it was for many movies first time to talk about how they felt about what happened in until after I did that this guy who work there came in and handed a note to a fellow this song by Jeff whose partner has been killed 10-15 years before and he and the note and it said call your partner at the Hall of Justice and so just got up and he went out to the phone and he dialed the number.

22:39 And a woman answer

22:41 I want to say Jeff is issue.

22:44 It was her former. It was his former partner who was killed wife without the power of your you know, he called her and he hadn't called her in 15 years so stuff like that happen, right? I mean it was Dynamic, you know, obviously, you know, I moved on they probably improved on what I used to do a lot but we were proud of the fact that we were able to get that started and I was proud of it and you know

23:17 I got you know, I kind of sad that I moved on from it. But what are you going to do? You know, I was just a cop who was

23:27 Just doing what I thought was right outside of your career with stretton Richmond station in Golden Gate Park. Is there anything particularly memorable about the last leg of your captain was a friend of mine and and I work the unit that we pretty much were responsible for cleaning up Golden Gate Park and getting the drug addicts and everything out of the park. And and so this one day I'm working and I got a call from the cabinets is Joe come on in and pick me up. So I went in the station. I picked them up and I said what's up? So this could we have lunch? So I said when I got to run up on it to Rossi pool. I got a couple of guys up there. I got a deal.

24:16 So should I go with you? So he took a ride up and these guys were there was low and behold they want to fight and so we were able I was able they were drunk and I'm not sure the Sonora couple of kids in the area in mother's so we took him in.

24:34 We got him in the car and and

24:40 And I get home and send him off to jail. When I run after that. Another call came in right at the entrance to the park at Arguello and Fulton and it was a child screaming for help. And so we got up there and there was a woman there and she started pointing up in the trees and she says it's up there. It's up there. So couldn't expect the captain to jump up and run over the wall button. So I jumped this wall about 4 feet high and I go running up this hill.

25:11 Top of the hill. I said his little girl laying on the ground on these three vagrants there and they were pretty not drunk but how to place and so I had my gun out and I couldn't talk I couldn't get nothing came out of my mouth and the people down below as the only one up there. They're yelling. You know, Joe are you? Okay? Okay. Well, I couldn't couldn't say anything. Wow, that's really bad. So finally I was able to get my press tonight. I said, yeah, come on up here. Give me a hand and everything else. So they were arrested taking off to jail and everything turned out that they had taken the baby from the mother. One of them had been was the father of the child but had no rights. Anyway, they they took the baby without the mother's own.

26:04 Well, that was the beginning of what happened the next day when I went out to play that that that team the Richmond baseball team went out to play in Daly City. And so I'm playing they didn't feel good. So I said to one of the guys. Hey, let me play for a space does up with somebody hit a Fly ball the man and it is long as I've been playing baseball way back to a little kid have never remember dropping a ball on the hit my club and fell out.

26:36 Oh, wow, so we went in and I said, let me play for a straight-laced once you sit on the bench, Joe and I said well, okay, so I said this girl

26:51 Lori Brophy shouldn't we each other we're playing on Daly City it will Westlake Joe's is and so she said Joe wants you off the firehouse and have them look at you. Make sure you're okay. You don't look good. I know I got the flu or something. I'll be fine. She says Joe your gray.

27:09 Well, that's not a good look, you know, and that's kind of many times have same people when they get gray in the face and it's just for they died well.

27:20 So I went up there where I started to go up there and all of a sudden I couldn't walk and so that we happen to be playing in Daly City baseball team. So they had direct line to the fire department.

27:33 So they had the fire department down there within 2 minutes and put me on machines and they said yeah, you're having a heart attack so that they shot me up to Seton Hospital and is as they walked in. I heard him say hey. Turn around we got another one for you. And I just so happened that to doctors or just done an angioplasty were walking out of the hospital. They sometime I had the heart attack within 40 minutes. They had done the angioplasty and and turned out the blockage was the 100% blockage in one of my arteries. And so that's why the day before I couldn't breathe and everything else and

28:16 So that that was my last day I ever worked and I might Debbie tells me a funny story that when you were in the ambulance you were telling them to Codes free that means a red light and siren and I always hated going code 3, you know, because I was one who hated attention brought to me and in so I would always look at places, but I'd say we don't have to go red light and siren, you know, then everybody love me in on it. So I never I never like that red light and siren so they said was one guy said to the other should we go code 3 and I said don't go country. I should have no big deal. He says hey, it's a big deal. You're having a heart attack. So I said, okay go karts, right?

29:08 So anyway, that's what happened.

29:11 That was 10 years ago.

29:15 All right. If you could go back and pick any career, would you would you choose a different one?

29:23 Do you have any advice for me and my siblings as we manage our careers in our family's good people but as I told you earlier, I got in a lot of trouble as a kid drinking obviously was a problem and and that got me into trouble and and and one thing or another.

29:48 But I always had people in my life.

29:51 Who stood by me and we're patient even though I was doing things that you know, they didn't lecture me. They didn't do anything else Uncle Mickey was one Richie Shin mom, you know, they were I know they were concerned about me. But what they did is they gave me the opportunity to fail in things and then when I needed help they were there to help me and you know and with your kids, I think it's the same thing. You have to let your kids have the right to fail at things and put be there to support him.

30:23 Do not tell them don't fail. Don't try, you know, you can always try and if it doesn't work out you just it was a thing. I had on my wall when time in the bathroom cuz I was like to read it and you know it and it pretty much said it was talked about. You know, you take a road.

30:43 And it doesn't work. You can come back and take another one, you know, and you keep but to not try so we encourage kids, you know, give it a shot try. You know, it's like you used to get mad at me over going to St. Mary's. That's how I carry. Why do you have to go to St. Mary?

31:03 But you stuck to your guns. And you said that's where I'm going. I'm going to same area as well. There are a lot of reasons. I didn't want you to go there but or not really didn't want you to go there but didn't know that we could afford a big are there and

31:19 But you know, you stuck to it you went there. You've been successful in life. And I mean that's fantastic, you know, but as an adult, you've got to realize you've got you can't always spell your kid's out. Sometimes you need to let your kids experience the consequences of their behavior and by doing that they grow if they never have to experience consequences. They won't grow.

31:43 Emotionally so

31:46 I think you just gave me both The Courier and the parenting advice. So what do you enjoy most of now about being a grandfather? What I enjoy most about being a grandfather is sending the kids home when they start bugging me know what I enjoy it. I just love watching the kids. I love watching him grow up, you know and and interacting and and you know, it is true. I wish tell kids, you know, when I start crying that says we are hurting if they say they look at me and said you're not hurt that's nothing to Cry 4, but I love watching the kids. Like I said to you try something I get frustrated and you know, but keep trying and

32:34 It's just great know that those kids are a result. You know that that I had for kids. Who've now what do we have? We got 11 grandchildren. I was 12 almost 12. I'm pretty proud of that. You know, you guys will all turned out pretty good. You know you have

32:58 You done well.

33:00 And you might have covered this little guy who's been the biggest influence on your life. And what lessons did they teach?

33:07 Who's been a number of people been influence on my life? I think Dad was a great influence on my life that one time when Mom had Alzheimer's you know, he was such a few stories about then and one story was you know, he spent eight years taking care of Mom with Alzheimer's

33:29 One day I I said you're not down. I think it's really neat that.

33:37 You didn't put Mom in a home or anything, you know any of taking all these years you like this to be with a constantly and he says what would you expect?

33:46 And that was that you know, he loved this his wife and

33:53 Through thick and thin he he he felt he had to take care of her. And then the other one was in this along the same lines. My sister Maureen living in Australia was going through a rough time in our marriage and had been going through it for a few years and I'd call more in would talk and everything else. And this one time. I called her and she said Joe I'm going to leave Chuck at it's just not going to work. It's never going to work on him to leave and I'm really in financial problems, but I have already borrowed money from Dad and

34:28 You know, I can't ask him for any more until I got off the phone and when I'm done I said

34:35 Dad wants having problems and she made some money and it said around asking what does she need it for anything along those lines. He says how much?

34:45 You don't know is that I told him he says it'll be on its way to her tomorrow. And that's where Dad was, you know, he didn't want to hear a lot of details. He just you know, it's like I said when when his kids were down.

35:02 He was there to help you know, he wasn't there to lecture him or anything hate. He he had been through stuff himself Richie Chen was a great influence in me. You know, Richie was another one when I was 18 and went in the post office Mickey got me the job Uncle Mickey and I went in the post office and and Richie was just added a former boxer and you know that I know I'm through Joey Fox a great friend to Dad's and and so Richie wood.

35:39 I hate always help me out in the post office. You know, you call me in the morning wake me up at punch me a do stuff, you know, they didn't have to do but he loved the family and they just want to take care of a Richie was one.

35:54 It was the lady role to to my recovery in AA and everything and I've been sober 30 years now at 29 jump-starting her who did a great job of helping me with the issues around being raised in a dysfunctional family and those things really were breakthrough for me and and changing my life and making me realized that that I was my own problem that when I had problems I had to look inside myself for the answer is not to 2.5 hours at everybody else and it was great lesson for me and it's something this work for me ever since and another guy a guy named Bob Quinn who is a fireman in recovery. He wants looked at me off when I was having these problems and it looked at me and he said Joe it's an inside job.

36:45 Do you know what time is on what you mean by that was I realized the answers are inmate. They're not out there. So, you know, I'm the end that's what we got to realize when I say you got to let people fail as you know, there are answers that we have inside of us are not always we don't always get what we want. But usually if we're patient we get what we need and that's that's really been talk to me by a lot of these people mom was influenced. I mean, my whole family has has been there for me, you know what my kids are, you know, you and Joey and and Steve carrying on the family tradition Steven Jo fireman and policeman song and then Debbie is here. Just saw your all great, and I'm very proud of all of you.

37:46 So when you were in your forties, he wants told me that you liked getting older and there was no age that you would go back to do you still feel that way I could go back to now but no, you know each other as a great book called passages and it's true, you know, they're different parts of your life that you go through.

38:11 I don't know, you know, unfortunately when your mother and I got divorced, you know, I'd go back to my I wouldn't have gotten married as young as I did. I I think for people today they shouldn't allow anyone to get married till they're like 25 because you've got to experience some, you know, otherwise you grow up and you go back wishing you had done stuff you traveled there whatever maybe and I have no animosity today towards anyone, but but

38:44 If I had to I would go back and then do so much mistakes, but we can't do that. So therefore I've had to learn from my mistakes and

38:54 No, I've had a great life at I want when I retired at the lunch they had for me, you know, I said it about the police. Finally I said, I've had a great run and I have I've had a great run tonight really doesn't matter. It's not how long you live. If you know, what's the quality of that life and I've had a pretty good quality of life. Would you like to do in your 30 years ago? I love being I love helping people. And so that's why I'm involved in Salvation Army and you know, that's where I was before. I came and met you today, but it would tear recovery program up there and not with the church Barn. I'm not much on Church stuff, but I'm big on giving back.

39:49 Now that's why I coached all those yet because I'm I always felt that I I squandered the gift that I was given to be a half late baseball player. Whatever.

40:01 And so

40:03 I always felt that my coach and kids.

40:07 Was a way of giving back the gifts that I had squandered and helping others recovering from addiction is my way of helping.

40:20 People, you know for the gift. I was given an energy to me. You know it. That's why I'm here today because you ask your dad for your birthday present at work on the storycorps. Well, somebody said to you, I guess, you know, that's what you came for his birthday, you know, but it's my way of giving back and that makes me happier than anything. I do. I love the opportunity to get back now. I don't know that. I always am good at what I do, but I try and you know, that's about it. But thank you very much. Happy birthday. Thank you.

41:02 We still got a minute any questions for me.

41:07 Let me think Karen is your favorite, you know, the last question on this page is

41:21 Any additional words of wisdom in the only thing I could say to you or any of my kids or your kids or anything else is, you know, to be honest with yourself and you know, we all look outside of herself for the answer to our problems. And the only thing I said I've learned he's got to look inside for the answers, you know, we all have them, you know, it's the only thing of, you know, your pointer finger out at somebody got for looking back at it. So anyway, that's it. Thank you.

41:58 When you think back to when you initially had Carrie are there any

42:06 Memorable snapshot that sound stand out in your mind of her as a child growing up specific instances of something she did whether it was small or big kids. I think Carrie you sing at the most frustrated with me.

42:21 You know Carrie once ask me something and you know what the time was a painful thing to hear and it was a painful thing to answer and I think you were probably about 13-14. It was after your mother and I divorce and we're driving somewhere and you were angry with me and I know it and you said it.

42:49 Don't you love mom anymore and I blurred out to you now.

42:55 Antsy, but things mean different things to me than they would to you and like you get angry with me and I understood that, you know.

43:07 Your mother and I hit a point in the road where it wasn't working anymore, and it wasn't I didn't care about your mother. I did care. I still care about your mother. I don't want nothing bad ever happened to her.

43:19 But it was painful to me to fight with her on and you know, I'll always be angry at each other. I didn't like that and I hated growing up around her parents cuz they bickered in fought and everything and I hated that and I thought that's what was happening to your mother. And I and I I couldn't live that way.

43:41 That's that's it. Thank you. That was fun. Good. Happy birthday. Happy birthday.