Bill Sorich and Brenda Christensen

Recorded April 7, 2013 Archived April 5, 2013 40:14 minutes
0:00 / 0:00
Id: sfb002269

Description

Bill Sorich, 65, interviewed by his friend Brenda Christensen, 63, about his career path as a metal worker and metal artist.

Subject Log / Time Code

Bill on being both a metal artist and craftman. On industrial art.
Bill on his father, who ran a steel drum company and inspired B to work with metal.
Bill on his training at College of San Mateo and later working for Westinghouse Company making nuclear reactor pieces.
Bill on moving into craftmanship work when he bought land and built a house in the Santa Cruz Mountains where he could set up a workshop for projects.
Bill on his work and focus on nature symbolism.
Bill on wanting to create humor through his art, for all ages.

Participants

  • Bill Sorich
  • Brenda Christensen

Recording Locations

CJM

Venue / Recording Kit


Transcript

StoryCorps uses Google Cloud Speech-to-Text and Natural Language API to provide machine-generated transcripts. Transcripts have not been checked for accuracy and may contain errors. Learn more about our FAQs through our Help Center or do not hesitate to get in touch with us if you have any questions.

00:00 Okay.

00:07 I'm Brenda Christensen. I'm 63 years old. It's now April 7th to 7 2013. We are here and they San Francisco storycorps kiosk and I'm here with my friend Bill saurage to interview him about his life as a metal artist and Craftsman.

00:29 My name is Bill sorich. I'm age 65. It's the 7th of April 2013 and we're in the storycorps booth and my friend that interview and meet is Brenda Christensen.

00:48 Seville, I've always considered I've always described you as both and metal artist and a metal Craftsman and would you would you say that that's a good description of what you do and that they're really two different skill sets that you that you need to have to be both a Craftsman and an artist.

01:08 Actually, I think that is both the craftsmanship, you know, good Craftsman, you know approach and get to the art stage of of doing things and anybody that you know has built a house or

01:26 Had a good car.

01:30 Knows that there's a difference between good craftsmanship in poor by what you saying how close the boards fit in how cold could the door closes on the car? And and that's not considered hard, but if you're working on those things you

01:49 As an apprentice and you're

01:52 Working with a journeyman or Master then, you know, it's very hard to do that.

01:59 And so I think industrial art is Art the only difference between you know fine or is that you're taking this ball and running with it and doing your own thing with it? Whatever that piece of art is is because of her good crafts but person and you can put it together and make it look good and express what you want.

02:24 The art to say about the art and it's the function of quality and quality can be a lot of things to a lot of people and what what is quality of art, you know when you have something is this better than quality something. It's well-made. What is something that's well-met. What are the attributes in the world of metal?

02:48 Well, I think you know depends on what we're working on. But for example, if if I was doing a one of my Pelicans or

02:59 Powell's the rendering of the of the parts and pieces of this thing how well they were put together and how they were put together and whether you were trying to disguise how they were putting together or one that you wanted to show how they were put together and

03:22 Do you know the the viewing distance of this piece of what were you going to see from the distance? You're looking at it from that's important. Sometimes you don't you can be rough and that's okay.

03:37 Like if you go to Barcelona and see gaudi's work a lot of it's pretty rough, but you unless you're very very curious. You never get Within.

03:49 25 feet of it. So it reads well at 25 feet and you know, some people go overboard some people don't go far enough as far as finishing the peace but it all depends on what you're shooting for. You know, sometimes you leave it rough you want to show them the marks on the piece that and hammered if you make it look too smooth. It looks like a machine stamped it out and it doesn't doesn't say somebody that I actually beat this thing out of a flat piece of plate over, you know in an into a sandbag and and then

04:25 You know put it together. When did when did you first think about something being well-made where it will you were child where there's somebody in your life another teacher or metrics that you knew the difference between just something put together and something being well-made went. When did you know that there was a distinction? I think my dad had a drum business in

04:53 Industrial made machines and and the conversations Around The Breakfast Table. We're always about the good workers that made good stuff and the hackers that you know, that basically didn't care what they did.

05:14 So it started out with a kind of an industrial, you know quality thing and then you know as I grew up a little more.

05:28 I kind of wanted to be an artist very early in life, but

05:33 But knowing that you know are to starve to death must at the time so that you had to do something, you know practical. Otherwise, you weren't going to make it and so the better Craftsman you were mad that you had a job because they said we want bill so the hard, you know, the better quality work always with the glass guy to get laid off.

05:59 So do you think when you when you at that distinction you knew that or like you say run the breakfast table that there were things that your parents or your father discuss? It said this is well-made. This isn't this is somebody who's paying attention. So when you first started your first project did you keep that in mind or are you just busy as a child? Assume went when was your first project? And what did you know about being well made at that point well

06:27 First off you had to learn your trade well enough to be able to make something so I kind of concentrated on doing I went to the College of San Mateo.

06:38 And before then I was you know high school was a kind of a zip because I was a Tradesman but the counselors kept saying that you had to be a business administrator or something in the people that work with their hands. Were you no second-class citizens and that worse now, you know, cuz they don't even have any of these shop classes or anything because they they're afraid they'll get sued but

07:09 In the sixties, and she I graduated in 66. So about 62 I was in 8th grade and I was a little dyslexic so they couldn't tell that and then no.

07:24 Fortunately, I got into the College of San Mateo and went to this welding technology program run by Louis de Freitas, and he was a

07:35 The Excellence guy, you know, he he wanted to create very very high-quality workers. And so the program was rigorous 12 hour a week 4 days a week and he kind of made you.

07:53 A very good welder and then gave you kind of Junior engineering skills, so that

07:59 At the time industry was getting more Technical and weldments and they needed people to record data that was going on that you were making them and then they couldn't afford to have a

08:14 Welding engineer engineer there all the time. And so that we kind of fit into this Gap where we had enough technical skills to know we didn't go out of students, but we got tours, but that's what they were shooting for was to make us

08:33 The go-between between the welding engineer and the welder we knew how to weld well so they couldn't fool us that that the weld was good when it was bad and which is a problem today even more where that they you know, they have people inspecting things and they don't know how to do it. So we knew how to weld very well and then we took the day to down and I got a job at Westinghouse in Sunnyvale on we built a nuclear reactor parts and pieces for this fast flux test facility in Richland Washington, which was the breeder reactor that the mid petroleum.

09:11 And now it's leaking like mad. It's a big problem but it is sodium cooled and sodium blows up in the air. So they had to have this thing under a complete vacuum purge with argon and then start it was a liquid metal. It was a metal until it was 600 Degrees and it turned to liquid.

09:33 And it was 11 foot deep bath of this stuff. And if it ever got on it it blew up and burned. I mean this is how to spell she was a special in materials that you had to work. Absolutely. I worked in the well lab and we had a pretty rigorous training at College of San Mateo. We were very well prepared zotic materials. We got a little licks in on that and you know, the guy was you know, he defreitas was, you know, incredible guy where he he got grants from industry and they gave him the material for all our test plates and you know, all kinds of stuff and infect the program was going to go broke a couple times and he wrote his students and said why I need $400 a piece from all you guys and everybody sent the DOE.

10:26 So what was that? The guy was really well, like I said, you didn't work for your father then when you were younger, so you never learn welding from from him and he never had time because in such a hurry that nobody had time to do it. So you never got to sit at the knee of someone who was a good and I'll good Craftsmen or anyone else in your father's business never struck a dark until I was in College of San Mateo. Did your father was he pleased that you were going to get into that has a skill. I mean I wanted to be independent. I didn't want to work for other people and that was kind of, you know, one of those other five year old Recollections of

11:13 Why you know, what was a good trade? Maybe I didn't have it at 5. Maybe I had it at about 13 or something of where I was looking and seeing these welders that were little guy shops and they had a whole bunch of junk around the place that was injected them. It was really parts and pieces of things are going to use and they always had a job and they could do it on the wrong with your machinist. The machines cost so much money that you've got, you know million dollars in equipment with a welder you couldn't have, you know, welding generator in a truck and drill press in a saw and you know, you're basically in business and it's mostly you know being clever.

11:57 To get the job done and hustling, you know, do you know I work hard at it you could go mobile or work in the shop. So give you a lot of Versatility until this very day, you know, I do some of that still and see, you know, it's fun to you know be under control of your situation and then figure out how to do it, you know.

12:23 And do it. What makes a good weld when did you end? And when did you know that you could really do it? Well, cuz you had to go through a hub soon. This will trial and error and when did you know and what it what does it feel like and what does it look like today to have a good weld what it means is when it in College of San Mateo was we had a board with all the good welds on them. And so and then if we went through each weld

12:50 For a week or so and and then after that time we had a test and if there was a Wells that were good enough you bump the old wells off the board and you got your world on the board. So is your Fame it was then you got to know about 17 years later. I'm having lunch with my friend for Westinghouse who was one of my classmates and he still work there and this new kid came in and and he says he have Bill I bumped your weld off the board 17 years later. So hotels have pretty good. It was a lot of fun. It was one of the realization that you're getting old when taking your hearse goes by but on the other hand, I was proud of that.

13:40 Why why metal wire metal work? Is there a moment where you were you because my dad's business you recondition steel drums and you know, it's kind of like a belching stack Industries, you know with you know, a cacophony of noise, you know that it was deafening and fire and you know, just how does pyrotechnics things that you making stuff in the one time. We got to go to Bethlehem Steel in South City. That's where my dad's from plant was and he knew the superintendent of Bethlehem Steel. So we got to go and I was about five I was really young and we got to see The Open Hearth furnace has and they were packing insulation with these big shovel like on a warlock and a on a boat and the guy would get a get a shovel and put it on there and shove it in the furnace and then Pat it on the walls to keep the insulation tight and then

14:40 We were given these blue didymium glasses. You know, they look at this fire 3000 degree molten metal in there. You know, it's like that was better than anything you could have done in Inwood. ER of the powerful image for Hot Metal Man. Well, I would you know liked it like fire. I do try to do anything with wood and plastic was too new at those times. Did you try to do anybody know we were you know those kids we wanted a little Doodle Bugs in and go karts in cars and you know, usually you could get you know a bunch of junk and then cut off something from wine and cut off some of the other and then welded together and is actually work. So I mean it it was a real you try to do it yourself.

15:40 What somebody to weld Forest? Yeah, we were doing it when we're like 12 years old. So you knew what you wanted and you found somebody who could do that well to make soap without welding you were like bolting bolting was nowhere and then metal was you know, the the thing of 20th century wood was, you know, great except, you know, you couldn't make a car out of wood, you know, it was great clips Steele, you know the span of a truss on a building or you know, it's just Mega would you know Woods got its place and it's wonderful, but in a modern society was built on steel like they are now, where are you have all these big robots and that's how Plastics were just coming to be a time that your emerging. Did you ever see yourself as a Tool & Die man or anything like that waveforms was good because I didn't like Machining was too precise.

16:40 And I was just a little dyslexic so I couldn't handle the mathematics. I didn't feel comfortable with it. You know welding is more of a site deal where you're looking at it and you know, if you get it with a 16th of an inch, that's pretty clothes for welding. So wasn't it wasn't so much. You know Precision thousands of machines was more like you you actually fit this together by hand and then then it was you know in welding this like we well done something and it it basically warps the hell out of it. So don't catch unless you skip around when you're welding together. It turns into a giant pretzel this worthless. So, you know, it's it's not so

17:27 Rigid as you know that

17:33 Metal is more like rubber when you weld it together and it moves around. So you have to be very very clever about how you weld it together. So when you get it done and isn't warped worthless by holding it down with clamps and

17:49 So that it can't warp can't structurally change Westinghouse. It was easy. It was easy to get the jobs when you finish the College of San Mateo with it a tough time, then it was pretty easy because my friend was like a shoe-in. He just walked right in the door, but I had left the country and

18:12 Tried to get you know as far away from United States as possible to avoid the Vietnam War and then I kind of squared that thing away and when I got back and I went to Mexico and so how poverty-stricken the country was and how there was, you know, no opportunity there and let you know grew up a little bit and came back to United States and was like, yeah, this is the place, you know, this is the land of opportunity so I am

18:45 I think I talked to my friend and was beating the bush a little bit and he said they were

18:51 They were hiring for the new nuclear job to build this reactor components. So I went down and took the weld test and passed it and they made land steam turbines in a like 40 foot high giant metal things with rotating generators in them. And you know, it was a great plant is like 65-acre plans Lake City and I've been there since was Hindi Ironworks from I think about 1850 until the end of World War II and then Westinghouse bought the property and handy made the EC - 2 reciprocating steam engine for the Liberty ship. They made up over 250 of these things during World War II.

19:43 And so, you know, the plan has been going like that. And now it's Northrop Aviation Westinghouse kind of blew it and made a contract for Uranium to fix price. And of course everybody knows the price of things go off and they basically went out of business. That's still even as an adult man appeal to you. I was a PhD and Welding because we work with the best engineers in the world and we were kind of plowing new ground and I when I went in there I went into the well dab and I did all the tests for the reactor and they have to have a proof, you know, they have a plate with the number of beads in the played in the treatment of the X-ray and heat treating it and whatever the ultrasonic testing.

20:42 And then that became the way we did build the part. Okay, you did that you made the quality control X must have been 25 of those and then this is during Vietnam War and then they came layoff time cuz the the big contract was done and so they start laying people off and I my number came up but I was saved by this Clause of 2% of the employees could be kept under, you know military necessity. So this was a transplanted so I I wrote on that but I made sure I didn't walk under anybody, you know those above me so they drop a brick on my head.

21:29 What did you do as you were working now Westinghouse with all this exhaust I assume some exotic materials NASA. Will you doing your own a Craftsman work at home? Or did you when did you start become an artist will you know I've with Metals try to be practical so, you know, it was like first things first. And the first thing is you got to have a place to do it. So I was in my dad's garage for a while his horse barn and then I realized it in a land was the whole if you're going to have a lot of junk and equipment around I was junked other people but it's all you know. Yeah. Well, it's it's like moneylion there, you know pieces of metal is it's money that you don't have to spend and so that you could give it to your client and you get the job because you're you know supplying something that would cost more money or a lot of money. So the whole mission was to get property and build a house on it.

22:26 And then, you know once you've got that then you've got the leisure time that you could invest in artwork.

22:35 They're so where did you pick up balloons or what? You got the land then where you live now what the land when I was working for Westinghouse my mom saw this ad in the paper and being from the Woodside area. It was like

22:50 And I'm going to the Santa Cruz mountains and we found a great piece of property that was you know at foreclosure and the end of the guy was basically

23:01 Kind of a gangster

23:03 Guy, you know that you'll use more of us, you know, he was on LSD, you know sticking with it chasing the guy with a butterfly in that more than anything for you to keep those little Treasures you found and it was basically the Badlands and nobody else wanted the property was at that time, you know, the hippies were going to Mendocino and there was not allowed up there. That wasn't there was no power and so the normal people couldn't bear to live without power so that the land was relatively cheap and so our property was off the grid and they wanted 250 Grand bring the power in and nobody had any of two dimes to rub together let alone pay for that. So and the road system was really poorly maintained cuz it was private and

24:00 So those two things made it so that all the people that would have bought the land didn't and it allowed me to get the property and other people in the same community. So you started to what what kind of metal did you look for? And where did you find these pieces these things that would become your inventory business closed and everything that was metal and rolled and had gears and what have you was mine for the taking cuz he would have scrapped it and got a few bucks, but it was like, you know, what was money did the diverse inventory?

24:44 Dumped it off and started using it right away. I'm fact the last couple of months. I've used a lot of stuff that I've had around for 35 years and it's great to use it up, you know rather than you know, you detected it from any of the weather, you know, if it's not out in the rain and and then you finally get to use it which is like Yay, you know about your treasure. So when did you move while then after you left Westinghouse are Westinghouse close doing that then? When did did you go on your own? Did you work for somebody else? What did you do as a Craftsman was about

25:22 76 and I quit and then my dad and my uncle helped me build the house for 3 months. I'd basically weld it all the beams together for the house and a lot of them had beam splices in them so that they were you know, that's one thing about Metal. You can't put two pieces of wood together, but with metal you can weld them together. So I prefabbed all the beams of the house truck come up there. We've gotten a lot of wood cuz my dad knew a contractor

25:55 Construction company they did big high-rises and they had form plywood and would that was left over from jobs at then. I might have had a split in the board. And we we saw it off the splits side and maida to buy 6 or 2 x 4 out of a 2 by 8 / 2 x 12 and so we had stockpiled some of that. We had all the two-by-fours and beans for the house and then we built the house in three months and it was like rough Dan, you know, no power. No, no wiring no plumbing and had fireplace goes then slowly that I had a little teardrop trailer that I rolled around the garage floor. And so that kind of got me, you know close Dan and it but there's no telephone and the roads really bad so that took a few years finally one of the ladies there expedited the telephone and got the puc all excited and made Pac Bell.

26:55 Run telephone lines in at no cost. So that telephones are huge. You know, how is everybody's got a cell phone now every minute of the day that you had over the telephone somebody wanted to come up and get a little work done and then they they didn't show then either waiting there and nothing happens. And then if you go down to call it's 4 hours, but by the time you get back and you know high-speed, you know, modern 20 20th century late 20th century was that everybody's in a hurry. So, you know, it's really difficult to do get jobs to communicate until we got the phone. The phone was like the key and then you started to do your own, you know, I had the time the leisure time that I could invest in something that wasn't going to make any money because it wasn't going to sell or might sell but you know, some pieces will sit there.

27:55 For 10 years and you know what? She is like you get paid the day that you sell the thing might do it. Absolutely. And what are you going to do? Follow the Gaudi model model of nature or what did you want to do as an artist go to play it by ear. And then whatever comes up I picked out birds as my thing, you know because their freedom and you know, they can fly away and and the mountain that I lived on had a lot of raptors in it and it would fly down the hill chasing something you'd see a big old Hawk go down the hill just like almost straight down cuz the properties of steep and you know see him a big ol explosion of of feathers where they hit the pigeon or whatever they were after and coyotes and set in art at that experience or that image. Is that what you did? Is that what you would I chose, you know nature.

28:54 Are the gates that I did were you know had trees and flowers and and scenes of you know, animals flying or dear, you know, naturalistic things. I didn't really like the curly q traditional wrought iron that didn't really interest me. It was more sculptural things and I wanted to be a sculptor more than I wanted to be a metal artist, but I wanted to be a metal artist in sculpture blacksmith doing wrought iron railings, you know, but of course the money is where you know, what happened

29:37 Is when we were kids our parents went through the Great Depression. So they were Frugal they could have $1000000 in the bank and they wouldn't spend it because they were afraid another Depression was around the corner and they're basically right but the Silicon Valley thing came up and then people, you know made a lot of money and they wanted nice things in that included fancy wrought iron. So that was that you did that for a while as a blacksmith. So that's what the fabrication skills were right in line with blacksmithing and you had to have a

30:14 A few different tools like a forging Hammer. That was a big big.

30:21 Air hammer that weighed 88 lb on the ram that would hit the metal. So instead of your Beating this thing on an anvil wearing your arm out your you have a machine that does that you're holding the peace running it through but you're not the power of the machine is doing the forging of the metal when it's hot. Yeah. Okay, right and that those tools had to be acquired in and the skills to run those things which was another hole, but it wasn't it wasn't Beyond being able to learn because it was an outgrowth of fabrication. You know, what the same tools little different you were you were doing different things to the metal. You were still banding it down forging it and Welding it together. Now that you know traditional blacksmithing stuff is no like mortise and Tenon and bolting or riveting stuff.

31:21 Gather and Welding speed that up because instead of you know, what happening to drill and Vine those worlds my art and Fabrication and wrought-iron was instead of just Pura stuff where it was done like 100 years ago. I used the TIG welder in the MIG welder modern ways to do things so that you could keep the price down so you could get the job, you know, it's all about the bottom line is money for that. Right and it's the same thing with artwork if you get too pricey. Well, it's not really a matter of money. It's a matter of how good it is.

32:07 You know people will pay, you know, one of them my Galleries at 7. It's never about money. It's about whether it's a guy likes it or not. If they like it don't pay for it. You know, I mean to a point, I mean you got to be a few or not if you're on a $2,000 Gallery, then you have to have a $2,000 piece. If you if you're in a million-dollar Gallery, you can have a million dollar piece. So if you got to be within the realm of where it where you are in this whole ball game, but it's got to be good if it has good as you'll sell, you know, and if you've got to talk, you know, if you know what people want and you can do it it'll happen. So how do you find out what people want just by trying to have it what makes material to work in and sculpture? What what materials do work? Can you work at work in steel brass bronze stainless steel because that I worked in Industry that welding stainless steel gives color to the peace.

33:07 So, you know if you're going to try and make up a bird and you want to know to Accent something you use the copper or bronze and stainless to give it the color that you want rather than hell like rusted metal is just Fades out. So it depends on what you're doing and I would use that and in my industrial skills help me on that and give a favorite material to work in more than others. Like I like the bronze is nice because it works easy but stainless is great because it's just proof be there in a thousand years later in the find it land in Owen the dirt there and it'll take it out there you dig it out and it'll be there, you know won't rust away iron work actually, even though people think it's very durable, you know goes away, you know, if you don't paint it and if it's by the ocean in a couple of generations is rotted away.

34:07 To say about when they see some of your art pieces, what would you like them to say about it real I want to create humor, you know, it's like people laughing, you know, like it's children's art for adults to you know, if you see my bird and it makes you laugh or smile. I think that sucks succeeded and I don't think it ends, you know, when your 14 or 15 years old when you're still a kid and now it just starts there you'd like to design. Is there something besides you've got nature and now is there something in nature that you haven't created that you would like to have them every week and then he comes to you will like last week. We were hiking and we saw the

35:04 Footprints of the cougar coyote and the turkey in the in a mud puddle. So this last weekend we went went back yesterday we went to the blacksmithing conferencing so I did a footprints in the mud pedal and I took a piece of it was an old solar panel hot water solar panel and I and I had the pipes was like explosion block bonded with a take two sheets and then they use explosives to bond them together and then they blow out where the pipes are so they don't have to have pipes running. They do it out of two pieces of metal that they they actually Bond and then blow up into a form to create the pipes.

35:52 So I

35:54 Ipam Erdos

35:56 Piped out of the thing and then I pounded Footprints deer prints in the cougar prints into the into the copper. So is like brownish like a like a mud puddle and then I mounted it in a frame of hammered textured 1 inch bar. So it look like branches look like branches that were put together, you know, like they would be lashed together with this piece of

36:30 Fabric auditor, you know a deer hide with the prints on it and that was fun for you to do and what do you think that was so different? What what does that brought up their enjoyment of it? Well just do it was you no footprints in the mud puddle. You know what I mean word for something that had it was too wasn't anything like Heather and you know, a lot of the all of my colleagues are all different than was a great show where everybody had something different. Nobody was copying anybody else. So that was nice and thing about metal is as you know, what you can form it and then you just got the color in it and you can do almost anything with it. You know, where would do you know if you get a tooth in it's no good metal really has versatility.

37:24 And that's that's what I like about it and I used all recycled stuff to do it. I'd somebody gave you the the one inch barn and I got the the copper panel. Another guy gave me a Mountain Recycling. Yeah, it was like using some stock just seeing something there and go. I'm going to make that Lisa said well, that's a good idea. Why don't you do that and you know one and the the modern tools allowed me to do it instead of beating on this thing for months. I had it done in two days. I used an air hammer and and use a sandbag. It's the same technique is that you know, Michelangelo used accepted.

38:02 I had air pressure doing it at all got done. And now this means that you have decades ahead that you can still continue to do this artwork for the without without because you haven't had to beat up your body so much to do it. If you're a blacksmith and probably a little bit more difficult is pretty beat up, but I think there's a few miles left in it.

38:22 What one of the reasons I tell him and I wanted to have this interview with you is that and I am not going to say a direct quote because I don't have it written down but there was is it over this wonderful artist in British Columbia named Bill Reed and he makes beautiful jewelry in that and other pieces is deceased now, but one of theirs this quote about that a legacy, yeah, man leaves behind is how the work of his hands and how well made the work of his hands are and that's what we always think about you is that how the care that you have whether it's for a structural piece or for their artistic. It's something that you put your care and love in and that we enjoy it as as your customer and as your friend that the beautiful work of your hands and your head that make em and your ability to work in these this form this media, and so we're appreciative because it's something that we not only enjoy but other people will get to enjoy so that's why we wanted this little boy

39:22 Picture into your story well, Brenda you

39:27 Coming from a metal family or your father being a bridge builder new what craftsmanship was and so, you know, that's why you know metalworkers so much more appreciated in Europe than here is because you at the people actually know what they're looking at, you know, most people think that, you know in the middle of the night that you know, the metal gets soft in the bushes around like putty and you don't have to heat it up 2000 degrees to make it move right? So that's a blessing and it's been a privilege to know you and have you appreciate my hard work. That's for sure. We're grateful that you are passive cross and we enjoyed this time. Thanks.