David Kieschnick and Wendy Fiering

00:03 Hi, I'm Wendy fiering and I'm 53 years old. And today is September 13th, 2014. We are sitting in the San Francisco Public Library storybooth. And I am Dave's sister-in-law. I'm married to one of his younger brothers.

00:25 And I'm David kieschnick. I'm 61 on September 13th, 2014 or in the San Diego Public Library San Francisco to public library and Wendy is married to my brother.

00:42 So Dave, what do you most want to talk about today?

00:48 I want to talk about what it was like in the seventies and eighties to be a gay Lutheran.

00:54 Talk about personal life and also some of the the beginnings of the gay and lesbian institutions in Chicago that I was part of creating. So when did you first realize that you were gay

01:13 I think when I was 18.

01:19 I started looking at this guy and being attracted and being aware that I was attracted. I know I've been looking at guys forever, but I always thought it was because I wanted to be Muslim like they were or whatever, you know total denial about what what my interest might really have been there when I was 18. I started to realize that it was actually a sexual attraction and began to act on it. So once you have that awareness, what what did you think that that meant for you? And what did you think that meant? Your life was going to be? What was your understanding of it back then and I didn't know anybody who is gay. I didn't barely knew the word gays there wasn't much Community with so there wasn't anybody who is in the life. I knew so it was all the stereotypes that I'd be some kind of Outsider loser sexual predator pervert kind of person. Can you say a little bit more about what that what those stereotypes were and how did

02:19 You take those in we went from from where?

02:23 I guess from popular culture and from what people said mean.

02:30 It just wasn't on the national radar on the cultural radar at that point. So you heard bits and pieces about who these people were they were these strange creature, you know, it's sort of like, you know, we just talked about seeing all the like the church at the do snake handling you might have heard about you think it's sort of weird, you know anything about it, but this one was far more negative than something like that.

02:57 So when you go ahead when you know, when I was in the Rat was seeing guys and really I just I couldn't connect how I was with my understanding of what it meant to be a homosexual.

03:11 So I got involved with this guy and we were actually sleeping in the same bed in the dorm with my roommate in the other bed and people coming in and out of the room and we didn't think anything about it because we weren't gay so why was there be anything to think about it?

03:30 So this was where and when it ended in the midwest in 1971 or 72 and you were how old you are 18 in college and how did you come to be just sharing a bed and the covers to stay warm but one thing led to another, haha.

03:58 But yeah, I think part of what I'm hearing you say is that the the stories you were telling yourself about. It did not include being gay. Is that right? Even though we were sexually active

04:14 Because it wasn't this bizarre creature that was sort of this image. And did you have a roommate?

04:22 And what was your roommates response? No reaction. I mean it wasn't we were just sharing a bit although interest, you know as he alway if we were messing around at night while he was asleep. He always slept through it all the way interest in way enough the one night. I had a woman in the room when we messed around he didn't sleep too that he told everybody in the school the next day so I don't know what he actually slept through and what he just ignored. Wow. Wow.

04:50 Wow, so

04:57 There it sounds like there was this. Of time where you are starting to act on your feelings and you would starting to have this relationship. But neither of you were calling it a gay relationship at what point did you come out and what was that like for you for you? No friends family your relationship work school. What is that point?

05:26 The coming out process is a little different just cuz nobody knew anybody now. Everybody know somebody gave us the time and nobody knew anybody gay. So there's no one to talk to you is all pretty much internal very very little written resource.

05:41 In fact to three years later I decided I wanted to put all the all the books in print on gay and lesbian stuff and I went out and bought all forty of them where I mean and where they were they all horror stories or what month is gay. Good was one of the things they gave the homosexual Mystique. I came over the other day, but it was it was more gates a lot of gay Theory stuff and sociology psychology and did those make you feel better or worse or it was hopeful to get information yet?

06:25 So part of it was just getting comfortable with myself and understanding this and I got I started being involved with this guy before Christmas and over Christmas vacation. I sort of figure it out. Hey, this is for the gay the

06:41 And then started at

06:44 And it was just the stories that I was told by the church in by the culture about who I was supposed to be since I was this way just didn't match my reality and I think that was one of the big experiences for a lot of gays and lesbians in the seventies and eighties was this disconnect between our understanding of who we are in this horrible picture of the society was painted and part of the struggle was to claim that for ourselves and to convince other people to that The Stereotype was just bizarre and didn't apply.

07:14 I'll go ahead protected sleeping in the same bed so we can meet this target types when I was student body president was very active. I date a girl. I don't think it occurred to people.

07:30 I just don't think it occurred to people different world, but it's just was inconceivable of what being a homosexual meant was such an alien thing and you were just like a normal student. Yeah.

07:46 So who was the first person you came out to besides yourself?

07:52 I was in a summer program.

07:56 And there was a woman in the summer program that I was close to and remember it was in the summer of 74 sitting on Oak Street beach in Chicago at night like 3:00 or 9 at night and talking to her about this having it go find

08:16 It was sort of a non-event for her but it was an event for me just to claim it. Yeah. Yeah. So then at that point were you thinking?

08:28 How did how did you manage? Well, who should I tell who should I not tell?

08:34 Yeah, I mean one of those things is just having Integrity is not lying about who you are. And with the people you care about you don't want to lie to him quite apart from a B18 support or whatever. So I told her his friends. Some of them were supportive some of them weren't.

08:57 I reached out to since I was in church work. I reached out to church with colleagues. We stopped texting you three different pastors and have it at

09:10 The first one

09:13 Just sorta said I don't know anything about this and I'm really uncomfortable while out at night and I really don't have anything to offer you that was conversation was just about that brief.

09:23 The second one

09:26 Spent almost all of his energy trying to get me to agree to have sex with him in his office of that visit. Oh my God, and the third one just I just said, you know, you you're going against two thousand years of of church history. How can you even think that you your opinion is more important than 2,000 years worth of Christian to Pagan. Let me show you in the Bible where

09:54 Part of the task of of of the 70s and 80s for Christians was to do the theology to say, you know, there's different ways to interpret these truck these these scriptures in this tradition. Was that clearly with that time or did you at that time when you were having the conversation with these pastors feel like you were going against what you had learned in the Bible by the time I talked to those people that already done my work by homework and I already had and you know, I had to revise my theological understanding and there was starting to be all ready by about 72-73. There were theological writings saying it all was taking a look at this, you know, the story of Sodom and Gomorrah is not about about gay sex. It's about in Hospitality like those things that then have come out since then.

10:52 Okay, so you're talked about?

10:56 Talking to your pastors and talking to your friends. How long did it take you to talk to your family? And who did you talk to first? I talk to my sister.

11:08 Probably a couple years after coming out.

11:14 And then I was in I was in interested in this guy this point I've I'd graduated from school.

11:23 And I was working in a parish on the Southside in what is now Obama's family home and

11:34 A lot of my interactions with with their is the University of Chicago gay gay group discussion group. So I met friends who there and talk to people there is a university student in terms of talking to the family. I talked to my sister later on I talk to my dad.

12:06 And he was the top education exact in the Lutheran Church responsible for everything high school and below.

12:13 Christian education, so he really was quite upset about this both in terms of my my clearly having a psychological problem. Also in terms of its effect on his career. He said that to you directly or you know, what's going to happen in a situation where he was quite politically embattled to find out the guy in charge of bringing up the youth has managed to bring up a gay son. Oh my God, this is a terrible thing.

12:44 It's clearly a failure of upbringing or education so that he's made this choice.

12:51 And he didn't want me to talk to anybody in the family for so for several years. I didn't tell anybody else in the family.

12:59 Which meant that I basically wrote off family relationships at that point in my life.

13:05 And things were strained with the family for about 10 years. They were restrained until sometime in the 80s.

13:15 And I wish that was, with so many of my friends. So it's just seem to be part of the price.

13:22 Eventually, we overcame that the rest of the family knows and my mom was real instrumental in changing the family Dynamic around that just a little bit.

13:36 She found out she figured it out why I was distant while I was always gone the fact that I've been with this guy now for a number of years and talk to the family about it and insisted this had to be done.

13:50 And brought me a wonderful letter saying, you know, she wants to be part of my life. And if this is part, you know, if this is why I'm cutting her out give her a chance to make her own decisions and the deal with it as the wonderful letter.

14:05 What was it like to get that letter after 10 years? It was not 10 years when she wrote the letter.

14:12 Who wrote the letter was the beginning of the healing process that took 10 years and took another eight years after that and it was so very friend.

14:23 In part because by that point I was quite active in gay and lesbian activism both in the church and outside of the church and that mad I could start to use my my name. Wow. I haven't been used. My last name is it would be well recognized within the church at that time. And so I was being careful about who I exposed at 2.

14:44 And that really meant that the only thing that risk was my career in the church, which I had made a decision. I was willing to risk.

14:52 So at that point it was as if she had really given you permission to just be who you were and the concerns that your dad had about his career and all that.

15:08 Well, and it's at by that bite at that point. The church fight had had reached its conclusion and dad was no longer working in the church, which was the other piece. So I wasn't protecting his career. He either haha. Good timing.

15:24 So I was at a point where I had Communications and Leadership skills. I had you know, I could do something. I could be an activist I could pull a group together I could speak and there were you know, when I came out part of what I did was like try to contact other people in the area, you know, what's going on. How can we effect change and people weren't afraid to do it wouldn't do it.

15:51 So it was clear. I had the skills and I had the opportunity and so I stepped up then as one of the people, you know, being the public face of gay and lesbian Lutheran Church in Chicago. And and I was also on the national board so both locally and nationally the national board of what it was the tight end for gay people. Could you be anymore? I don't know what to call it.

16:24 It just sounds so Earnest. So there was a guy in Minneapolis who worked for a major Church body there who have a little extra money and pull together some some gays and lesbians. He knew and 73-70 73. I think it said, you know, we got to do something and they they reached out to me and asked me to be involved and so the organization founded and I was on the national board as I think I was Treasurer maybe secretary, maybe both over the Dover years, but then they also said, can you do in Chicago? So a lesbian and I founded lutherans concerned Chicago as the advocacy Ministry group within that two graphic area and what it what is lutherans concerned actually do

17:13 Two things one is work with gays and lesbians around their issues and it was pretty obviously lutherans people. So it a lot of religious stuff involved so mixture of Consciousness raising and Ministry in a lot of people damaged a lot of people coming to those meetings who'd been excommunicated who'd been harassed tube in front of their family, as you know, so people with a lot of of emotional and spiritual needs people who gay person you couldn't go to a parish and feel comfortable worshiping their

17:47 Number of the first time. I took my partner 30 years to a Lutheran Church the path of sermon the whole sermon was how bad homosexuality was. Hey, welcome to being Christian. So people had leads in point of one thing was they need to be able to worship or be Christian and and figure out these issues in a supportive environment. We created that the other thing we did was education and advocacy to the outside world. So there was a lot of politicking a lot of we did gay 101

18:20 4 days what's gay 101

18:23 Nobody knew anybody gay.

18:26 So it didn't matter how awful the story you told about gay people it was quite believable cuz there was no reality to test it against so we would do we would go to college classes. I always call always going to Valpo University for their social work classes or Ball State or Northwestern, you know religion classes to give me to come in or asking asking us to provide someone and I would go in and do okay. Here's who I am. My life is like you was my understanding of reality and it was just at that point so different from these stereotypes. It was incredibly useful.

19:06 Tell me a little bit about like what one of those classes was. Like, what were I assumed you would have gave a little presentation and then probably opened it up for questions. What were some of the questions like what do you eat? Actually, what do gay people eat quiche. I don't know.

19:27 Well, they would ask about me in a relationship to family relationship to phase. You know, I was partnered. What is that a like to be parted with a man? Do you want to have kids although in the early days kids weren't even nobody would even ask that question later on like 15 years later. They'd ask. Did you feel like in general the the questions were hostile where they just curious if they believe did you feel believed when you gave your responses? Did you feel like you were making a an impact and how people were perceiving you and homosexuals in general.

20:15 Some people are going to be in the Pat Robertson Jerry Falwell camp, but a lot of people it was just curiosity and wanted understand and basic information and the fact that I could come in and be basically a normal-looking normal acting guy who spoke the same language. They didn't have the same aspirations. That was a powerful political act every time I did that.

20:40 Once ate hit in the 80s

20:45 It was horrible, but it did wonderful things for the gay and lesbian community in that.

20:51 Before that most Americans probably could say they didn't know anybody gay.

20:56 By the end of 1988 of the 80s most Americans knew somebody was gay either be partly because of age. I mean suddenly everybody's family had somebody who is dying or they are hairdresser or are you know this colleague or whatever suddenly it was impossible for people stay in the closet and somebody who they knew in a quote-unquote normal contacts and it wasn't sexual you got this cognitive dissonance between these things that culture was saying about who we were and the way we actually were and they avoid overcome that is for people to see who we actually were.

21:33 And so the more people at end and it wasn't just it was the wasn't just lutherans concerned. This gay 101 is consciousness-raising. This is who we are strategy was employed by almost all gay and lesbian groups at that point. There was always always this to fit to side the thing. How do we figure out who the heck we are and how do we say cat figure out who we are and claim claim our humanity. And then also how do we educate the rest of the world that we do have humanity and you know, we're basically have the same aspirations everybody else. Do you want us a little more about the ministry aspect of the cuz you were talking a little bit about you know gay one-on-one the the reaching out to two colleges and organizations out there. And then you were saying there was another piece of the work. That was really

22:31 The healing and Ministry to two lesbians and gays themselves and friends since you said something about providing a place to worship. What was when we started meeting in 73

22:51 There were the places that gays and lesbians could meet or typically Mafia owned bars and baths or public restrooms in public parks.

23:03 There were almost no social structures in place where people could meet in a non-sexual context.

23:12 So whether it was the Lutheran group or other community organizations purchase providing a physical venue.

23:19 And for us finding a church, we could we could have meetings in was a challenge. I mean most churches wouldn't accept us back for quite a while. We we met in the apartment of a straight black woman on the southside of Chicago who happen to have a lesbian sister and this was her way of reaching out and she provided us at the physical place we could meet

23:43 Who was there an officiator like a pastor at these meetings are within how to do there was not necessarily a pasture cuz most pastors didn't want to be involved. So there was a leader typically with me or or the other founder of the group but woman named Chris warm us and we would leave it there be devotions there be prayer there be a lot of internal discussion consciousness-raising and people would come who'd never met another gay person in their life.

24:14 People would come who been excommunicated or who you know, this one guy who'd actually went to the same College. I did but Ten Years Later his family had disowned him. He had gone through the whole Exodus ex-gay. We're going to deprogram you thing and he was just a mess.

24:34 Because it does nothing work. He had these strong religious convictions and there was this the religious convictions told him he was a terrible person going to hell but he knew he wasn't a terrible person is so just like this go around and around, you know, he was just really intense. And so, you know you then you do some pastoral counseling or hook him up with a pastoral counselor to try to help him work through those issues.

24:58 That sounds so they were all ugly needy people for whom meeting other normal gave normal folks Were Gay and Christian songs of the seventies we say, yes, you can but so how did they find out about you because it sounds like the the mainstream churches were saying we don't know about this. We don't want to know about this. You're not part in the gate in the get Rags. We developed a mailing list and we sent out postcards.

25:28 Word of Mouth

25:30 So we thought we started in 74 with a meeting of four people for people good woman and two two straight pastors Suites as far as I know they were straight.

25:48 You know and by 76 we were having 30 40 50 people at a meeting and with the word spread of people were thirsty for they were just thirsty for it. So by the end of the 70s, we were having a hundred people at night van 250 people by the mid-80s. So, you know 200 people in the event.

26:10 And yeah.

26:19 For people the first meeting

26:22 I mean, can you describe sort of like a the changes that you saw over time? Like when it started from for people to when he grew to 40 people. I mean if people the same people keep coming to the meetings and if they did, how did you see them answer to change or leaving the community chain? There were like three kinds of people that would come one would be supportive straight folks. Typically Church workers secondly would be gay people who were there because they wanted to to do advocacy and change the church and the third was people who are just a mess and needed help.

27:02 And the proportions of that is what changed over time.

27:07 You know as the community got its act together there were more and more ways for folks to deal with their own issues and to find support and there were lots more venues for support and there were lots more venues for people to meet other folks that weren't sexual then use of it early on that. We sort of had to do everything.

27:28 And it was a much heavier burden of of support for people who are really hurting.

27:35 Then we managed to get pastors involved and we were able to then have them do the pastoral care.

27:42 We will identify support of pastors who had done their theological homework and could provide counseling.

27:49 We were also Able by the eighties to find pastors who could lead worship.

27:56 And at that point you still could not worship comfortably in any Parish in Chicago.

28:02 And that changed by the 90s parishes it for you. No weed. We had this program encouraging parishes to be opening and welcoming in that started to take hold and pretty soon. You'll people could get a lot of their worship needs met on the local Parish.

28:17 And the religion of the the worship part became less important. It was still a problem though still most parishes didn't understand gays more that welcoming but it is approved is concerned still exist.

28:34 And there still an advocacy group within the Lutheran Church.

28:38 Okay, so who?

28:43 Who would you say where your allies and doing this work and were there people that were groups that you felt like should have been working with who who weren't?

28:59 We had a lot of Campus pastors who were allies they tended to be really they tend to be quite liberal and practical about what they could do.

29:08 And we hit, you know, we develop relationships with people doing the same thing in other denominations. So, you know, there were groups there was a group that I went to that was, you know, the Baptist in the Presbyterian in the Unitarian and the UCC in the Methodist and Lutheran, you know, so we shared strategies and resources

29:29 Allies expected to have were some key so-called liberal lutherans in the Chicago area who just didn't step up places with high percentage of gay of gay prisoners, for example, but denied the third that this was it all an issue.

29:52 I was at

29:55 I was at the convention of the National Council of churches. I was sent us the Lutheran gay when Metropolitan Community Church which is a gay gay gay population. They applied for membership, you know, when they subscribe to the same religious tenant it all the other churches and they were up for membership and that in the National Council of churches refuse them.

30:20 Because there were gays in the parishes.

30:24 And the editor Christian century was there now, this is one of the big liberal Mainline Christian magazines.

30:32 And they did wonderful stuff and so I'm talking about you know, how are you going to report this and his like well, we never talk. We never write about homosexuality cuz it really no news there you get there was something newsworthy happening we cover it. This isn't the middle of the National Council of churches denying an application for membership basically because it was gay people and he didn't see that as news.

30:54 It took him about five more years before he got on board and started realizing we had to report what was going on.

31:00 So when he didn't see it as a news with your understanding that he thought oh homosexuals are just all completely. Well, it was that to play. This is not something anyone's interested in talking about there's nothing happening here. So there's there for nothing to report. So he knew it was a struggle is not an issue.

31:25 It wasn't important.

31:32 So that actually makes me think also about where so this is you know, what time. Where there's also a lot of work going on on women's rights and racism and where those those issues were covered in the magazine.

31:51 Part of the struggle for that. We really worked on in the 70s and 80s was figure it was with changing the discussion because it's like

32:05 The Lutheran church-missouri Synod was going to have a doctrinal statement on the church and homosexuality, right? So they got this professor from one of their seminaries in Fort Wayne to do the research and write up the right up the position paper. Then he was going to present it in there and they were going to approve it to friends and I met with him the night before his presentation and we were the first self-affirming homosexuals. He's ever met.

32:29 So the conversation excluded us including all the data we brought to the table instead the conversation was between people had these fantasies about what gay people must be like and they base their decisions on that and it was like we didn't have anything to say we had no right to participate. What did this guy say when you talked with him? He said, oh that's very interesting and then totally ignored all the testimony cuz he's already made up his decision. He had his recommendation, which was the gays were terrible people and emotionally psychologically flawed and therefore shouldn't be members of the church.

33:08 As I read it, I mean it was a very strong antique a statement and it's basically still the position of that church body and that church body still won't believe that gays and lesbians are part one of the car. They're members and should be part of the discussion. So there's a big a big effort. We were making then to say you can't have this discussion without us and it's not an awesome them is not those weird people out there. It's your pastors at your choir directors and organist. Hello have tooth and it's your members and it's your mother's in your father's in your children, and we're all part of this church, and we are part of the discussion.

33:51 And it took aunt in the Lutheran Church. That's finally sort of come to fruition and the 2000s on Lutheran the main not Missouri Synod of the ELCA finally asked a couple years ago decided that yes, they be welcoming and affirming and open to gays and lesbians and part of that wasn't admission that there are gays and lesbian lutherans and you could be Lutheran and the same time you could not be Christian and lesbian from the church side was also to from the gay side. I got huge amount of grief and and ostracism from gay activists and other gay people in the community cuz I was a Christian

34:41 So I was tired with the brush of all the people who like Jerry Falwell.

34:47 When the word with in the gay community was young Christians are a lost cause and there are enemy and instantly that's been my experience. My screen should like Christians are my enemy and my default take on any Christian. Now who's in the face mode? Is there probably my enemy is that so even though given what you just said about you know, what an ELCA is active. What is spell it out? What is that? Okay, even though you're saying they are now saying they're welcoming but is there some way in which that still doesn't feel like it's permeated throughout well will last 5 or 10 news articles you seen on Christianity around homosexuals with a pro or anti gay.

35:39 Don't have to think too hard about that one.

35:44 Yeah, 10 minutes.

35:47 Okay.

35:50 So I know you have some interesting story about Margaret Mead the polis Anthropologist in the drag show. One of the things we were trying to do is develop institutions and develop and just meet each other. So because you know two of us more powerful than what so I think it was maybe 72

36:18 All of the organization should be all the professional association had these gay caucus that were forming including the International Association of anthropologist who were having their annual or biennial or whatever International Convention to the Conrad Hilton in Chicago.

36:34 So the get anti-gay caucus informed and they've reached out to local activists and I was one of the five and said could you do an exposure to gay life in Chicago to sort of like, you know an anthropological journey into the dark the Deeds are dark recesses of gay life or whatever. So I went down we met at the Conrad Hilton and Margaret Mead came and said hello. It's wonderful, you're here and I got assigned a Polish Anthropologist and of Belgian Anthropologist to show them gay life in Chicago, which at that point man bars.

37:09 I couldn't take him to a softball game couldn't take him to Community Center or church or any of it doesn't exist exist five or six segments of the gay Society so that we started off with a drag show in here. I am in this drag show with and the Belgian was with my colleague sitting two rows back and I'm next to the Polo speaks Polish in French, but no English and he's like looking watching these women, you know all dressed up dancing and he's like who are these in French is fractured French and mine. Basically, why are we here looking at a woman? I thought we were going to explore gay life in Chicago. I had to explain no sisig. I know it's a man.

38:03 What came of that it was just an evening. I have no idea. They went back to Poland Belgium that was their exposure, you know, but we did and I did that with groups of 12 gate of straight clergy to just sort of wanting to know what's what are these people like this a lot of just education?

38:27 I guess I should say also I was on you know on the founding Boards of what is now Horizons Community Center and Howard Brown Medical Center, which is the big gay community center in the baby age organization, Chicago and we were doing the same thing at that point. We are fighting a place for people to meet we're doing lots of coming out lots of counseling and lots of politicking. Was there any backlash to starting that Center those hard to find a place?

39:03 And we didn't get raided. I mean Bars were still getting ready. You still used to you know, didn't take IDs or used fake identities going to bars. When I started. Do you want to say anything more about just what it was like being I mean pretty much everybody was closeted at that time initially Right Nelly Nelly Queens, you know who weren't able to hide a pass. No one ever thinks about me, but not that's not true of everyone so they had to be a lot stronger in a lot braver.

39:37 Yeah.

39:41 That must be

39:46 I was going to ask you what made what made you feel like you could take the risks that you did and putting yourself out there as the face of

39:56 Well, you know, I'm the son of missionaries. So risk is risking it and going out there is part of the tradition. I had contacts and skills. I knew I could make a difference and I knew I was in a position to do it and they're not religiously I felt that this was what I had to do. I really didn't think I had a choice this before God called me to do.

40:21 And I got to say that you know compared with where we were 40 years ago. I'm really proud of how much the world has changed and I think that well obviously not just me but all of us were the religious or not pushing and educating has made that difference we wouldn't be here if it wasn't for all these heroes in the 70s. Most of whose names no one will ever know, you know, cuz in those days we can keep any record. So there's there's a few rows of the Revolution that no one will ever hear about thousands and thousands and thousands of us pushing of made this difference in American and religion. Yeah.

41:00 Hotsy did you want to hear your said something to me about fear of being when Reagan came to power what that was? Like, do you want to say anything about that people work were closeted? So the mailing list for confidential confidential and there was a lot of any gason some stuff and then when they Age happen and Reagan came in and they were talking about putting us in concentration camps. I mean there was serious talk about if we gets this bad, what do we do? And how do we protect these lists?

41:35 When it was this openly talked about in in Congress, I mean

41:42 It was never mainstreamed, but it could go that way just like it did for the Japanese internment. Look at a lap how fast suddenly the Japanese were interned during the war. They were talking about using the same internment camps as a matter of fact.

41:55 So, you know, we had to take contingency plans about protecting those list before we fled to Canada or whatever. He might have to do and certainly there were death threats. I had multiple death threats of people throwing things at me.

42:10 Nasty letters all that kind of stuff. So I'm in pain. I how have friends who've been killed. So is a violent world.

42:19 Wow.

42:21 Still violent Tous Les we have more protections and we're stronger than we were then.

42:28 Now there's more conversation. It's it's it's out that the whole conversation has broadened.

42:40 Is there one thing that you're

42:45 That you're proud of stuff and this work that you've done.

42:52 One thing I just I think I'm proud that people a lot of people now can live a normal life and hardly have to think about the fact that they're gay is so, you know, the people who are 28 years old now, it's almost a non-issue for a bunch of them. I'm very proud that we changed the world in that that's how it is.

43:13 I'm proud that you did that too.

43:20 So, thank you.