Meilan Carter-Gilkey and Aya de León

00:04 My name is Milan Carter Gilkey. I am 41 in San Francisco and story Corps boots and I am friends and colleagues with.

00:17 With ID Leone in its May 28th, 2015

00:23 I'm I have a leon I'm 47. And is May 28th 2015. We're here in San Francisco and I'm here with Milan Carter guilty and I feel like we've circled each other in these broader communities over the past couple decades and then cross has more specifically when we were both pregnant at vona in 2009. And then after that sit across past everywhere until I had the blessing of working with you in the parking for the people program this year and just found that our lives were on this very parallel track very very interesting because for years, I would see like flyers of your people talk about you that I would always miss you and always

01:23 Talk about particularly again if some of the stuff we talked about.

01:28 Focusing on here raise parenting being mom's being creative and I know you've been writing a bunch about kind of in this historical moment where we have a lot of Uprising around issues of race, a lot of visibility around issues of race, and a lot of really same old violence that's been going on in terms of race. One of the things that has that your life has in your examination of your own life is really offered as an opportunity to look at what it's like to tell to talk about race with a son because you have two sons who are so far apart in age. Can you tell a little bit about the story of how you have the race talk or brought up issues of race with your older son, who's in his early twenties now and how is that different from when you had the talk or are in the process of trying to have the talk with you?

02:28 Much younger son Matteo who is 5, you know, I think I think there should have always wants our kids or at least for me once come out to be a certain age. I think there's always would have just an awareness where we would go places where I just was really monitoring his behavior even subconsciously just in keeping him safe. So as a parent that can go from don't step out into the street and it sort of continues from there. I think one of the big moments for me we moved to New York when I was close to 8 right month before September 11th, and I was still really

03:08 Really kind of haunted by Amadou Diallo. There's a lot of other it was we know people who had unfortunate similar murders and stuff, but that one really got to me and so are we moving to your work and I realize that he's going to be on his own in a walking more of you know, being to your kid that just made me so much more fearful and I just felt like this is a time. I really need to talk to prepare him because he in Walking the three blocks from his school even in the part of Brooklyn which wasn't considered a bad. I didn't know what could happen. And so it really should have started out of that and and some of it also came from my own childhood my brother Robin in his college days if he was beaten by the police for money for the bus and had a hairline fracture in the skull and you know, there were other similar incident that happened to my childhood. So I think there's some sort of in green this idea of

04:08 Having to have this talk with canal and I think that

04:14 I don't know if I was quite as blatant. It was just sort of like this is what you have to do in the same way that you say, excuse me the same way that you cover your mouth when you sneeze like this is just how we live. And so I think you asked me about the I guess we had it but I think it's been very just heard of natural to just the way he was raised. And now that I am doing this again with my husband David, I'm a little bit more hesitant, I think in some ways

04:43 A five-year-old has already bought a pictures of race is very aware. He's really paying attention to the Dynamics and but he's also kind of neat as you know, and that's Monday to where they're soaking up everything and really paying attention to what's around. So if I tell him okay, this is what the police do that every time. She sees a cop is going to be freaked out and there's literally cop in front of her house every week for a speed trap. So the Dynamics of that alone, so I'm really hesitant. So on the one hand, he's learning historically what's happened to buy people more so than what's happening right now. And when he asked questions like do the police hurt people, you know, it's really hard conversation. You know, I don't want to scare him. I don't want him to 1 people together, but it also you know feel like I'm

05:30 You have to do it in for me and faces and work. We're working on it and we're going towards it. But with Kemal maybe because I was younger maybe because he was older than Mateo. I was just a little bit more. I think a little more direct have you had these cuz I know we've talked about it but kind of wondering sort of how far in these conversations have you gotten with daler even started them right? It's so it is really hard cuz I think for me there's the tension

05:58 So racism, you know, I think about racism racism is a, tis is many things and one part of racism is about Invasion right there like you're going on about your business is ho-hum and then all the sudden there's this invasion of violence humiliation disempowerment and then another part of racism is about not talking about it, right? And so when you have small children flag, okay, what is the contradiction right? So part of the contradiction I think for black children is to have a. Of time where you're not dealing with racism to actually be protected from that I think is part of fighting racism is giving our children a chance to grow and dream and imagine their lives and develop without having that way that the stunting of racism right and

06:51 I guess part of my hope is that when my daughter finally confronts some of the really brutal realities of racism that she'll be kind of have enough information and developmentally will be able to process that in a way that will be is never going to beat make it. Okay, it's not it's not okay. I can't be okay, but just that developmentally she'll be able to make sense of that in a way that can be constructive towards developing her leadership as opposed to terrifying and developing her sense of overwhelmed shutdown helplessness, right? So that's my hope and so I'm definitely going with the really tiny bite-size pieces and the Really General stuff. So I keep it really General like talking about oppression, you know talking about people being mean there.

07:52 And I don't know like I I definitely haven't had the talk with her like the big racism talk like this is a long-standing entrenched dangerous deadly. Like I definitely haven't had that conversation with her, but I kind of think of my I think part of what I'm also trying to do is

08:13 Build up the notion that people are fighting and that eventually we're going to win.

08:22 I'm trying to build that up faster than she gets the bad news. So it's sort of like trying to you know, cuz I think about it in terms of what does it mean to build leadership and and it but it's also really it's challenging and also not all young black people have this luxury look at the luxury to be protected, you know their children for every person who's like shot killed beaten choked by the police in their family. They're young children who have to confront that. You know, what happened where is selling? So why are they in the hospital? What happened to their had their body and their children who can't be protected? So, you know, it is a luxury and yet I also

09:07 I'm I don't think that sort of dumping all the information on her lap is the radical position. I think that you know, it's this dance for me and it's been interesting. Also I've been active with a group of a multiracial group of parents doing black lives matter action with our kids cuz I think for many of us who have a history of being activist like I'm not going to bring my five-year-old to like a nighttime protest where a there may be getting tear-gassed by the police in resisting police brutality racist police brutality folks are targeted with racist police brutality. So that's one thing that's crazy. But even if the protest is nonviolent, like adults kind of sharing their Terror an upset, like that's a really appropriate place for that, but I don't know. I don't know that that's the optimal way for children to learn that information because a lot of times in those places people are venting their

10:07 Feelings of hopelessness and despair and that for me more so than the violence itself is part of what I'm trying to insulate my daughter from the notion that this is inherently a situation for despair and it's not to criticize people for their feelings. I have those feelings too. But I'm trying to create a trajectory of that. This is something that the community is figuring out how to fight and that were winning and I have to say the conversation that's happening now at a national level to me is really unprecedented in a lot of ways that we we are moving forward. It doesn't mean that everything is changing but the conversation is changing the conversation. I think I should change first. So to that degree, I can feel authentic in my sort of hopefulness with my daughter, but that yeah, it's a really it's a tough place as a tough place and I think for girls because there's such a hyper awareness of appearance.

11:07 Auto stuff around race and racism shows up around appearance, you know Hair Skin prettiness. And so that's also a place where I find myself trying to resist and curate her experiences of the world. And for a long time, I would curate, you know, we don't watch a lot of video but for a long time. Only allow her to watch these sort of black women athletes and non-traditional role. So I remember thinking like At first I want her to go through. Of time taking like all gymnasts are black women basketball players are women, you know, just like really trying to curate that experience so that before the racism and sexism of the world in the media got in there that she would have this sort of very limited and in some ways dude perspectives of what the world was with herself in the middle as like the star.

12:07 Then what were those kind of moments like that? We are beside of you and I would say that one and I wrote about but to come up and lots of different ways was that we were interviewing people for the first time and the table is going into it with one of his closest friends. It was right and he asked I don't have any grandkids there and you know, we start to have this conversation and I realized that he often times is feeling the minority really feeling like there's not any other kids who look like neither is not kids who have the same hair as me and and it's come up in different ways and although he goes to a diverse School in his mind if there's only three brown boys in the class and there's not that many either one. So he's really aware of it and I think for us one of the challenges has been his attachment to hear to Media two characters. I'm totally you know, we talked about this this

13:07 Idea of what they're seeing an attachment cells to in their identities to and so as you know, he's already addressed this kind of know about being aware and not feeling like is lots of kids like him. I think he's sensing that as some sort of deficiency. And and that's the biggest concern is like that maybe there's naught but what's what about that? How do you feel about that? And so with these conversations? He's also really attached himself to certain character. So right now we're in a Star Wars face and we're Star Wars fans in our house. And you know why we all love Star Wars he has his attachment to Darth Vader, which first I was like, okay, he's a bad guy but the bigger concern is his tablet and again in that has been this concern and where he's like, I want hair like Anakin I want, you know, he's like walking on the house of the black keep and he's watching you fly in the wind because he wants to emulate that and so that's where

14:07 I said that the drill difficulty is because I want him to feel comfortable identifying with the characters that he does have that it is some sort of be strong to but wanting to realize it that doesn't mean that this some kind of that there's something wrong with him that his reflection isn't either isn't enough. And so we have had these photos.

14:31 I can only say to retail battles if I call them of me going literally to multiple stores to buy black action figures in dog. And I mean, it happened twice. I I found one for Christmas and what sort of this thing where I was like, I'm going to buy all the little black boy that all the birthday parties this one. And then I couldn't find it. So I'm going store to store literally calling asking where we going to get this in stock and feeling so frustrated that no one you're carrying one thing here, you know, and then to that you're not even giving it consistently wishing that makes me feel like then you're not considering discussed Arena considering me and are considering my child. And when you were talking about the with girls in the hear, you know, it's the same thing. May we know what the dog? I went looking for one of the dogs from the whole movie of my father actually is having a movie starring a brown girl and they don't care that all they carry the creatures that carry the cat that carry everything. Okay. I don't care of the job. So there's just would have been this on.

15:31 Going thing for me where I'm literally ready to like, you know take on these big corporations because I just feel like you know, this is a small thing. This is a small thing to make you recognize us as customers as people and make my kid feel like he's not alone. So he's definitely paying attention. He's catching himself, but because I'm consistently buying a black action figures in dogs. Can I have a collection is so I in fact last night to give him Bishop from X-Men and he has window Calrissian in the list goes on and on but but they're definitely a lot of moments that he's paying attention and we talked about it and so he's some sort of now in the sense of

16:15 Brown is good. White is good to write Mommy because now he's like do I have to just pick one? So it's it's a challenge. I don't know either I could go on and on about it, but I think that the moment to Everyday I'm with her at school, Turn TV moments are you know, they just around us and it's it's just never ending. I was thinking bad for asking this question. I feel like as a parent of color a big part of it is

16:41 The sort of reaction we are always having to react to what you know what they bring home what they say.

16:48 What are some of the moments I have for you that the lawyer so many and of course I'm fine with that and I think you know.

17:04 Part of it is if you know if I were totally in charge of these things that have these super random alternative like unknown superheroes that she would then have access to but as she interacts with other kids, you know, all of these more mainstream things flood into the house, right? And so I picked a couple and it's interesting to see the pluses and minuses of the one of them is Wonder Woman, you know, I grew up loving Wonder Woman. There's a lot to love that Wonder Woman. They're also some complicating Factor right at Wonder Woman from like the sexualization of her body to the fact that she's why you know that she's drawn in a particular way, but just sort of she's an enduring icon of the last, you know, 65 years or something and in the culture, so I'm like okay for going with Wonder Woman as one of the things that I am green lighting you to have some exposure to so that was interesting another one.

18:04 Disney I'm not down but the the Disney Pixar character Merida with brave actually was pretty much a feminist young hero. It was anti-marriage and she you know was really she's a great Archer and and the core relationship was between the mother and the daughter and I really like that and so and also visually Maritime is Scottish and has this hugely puffy hair, right and so is interesting last Halloween my daughter wanted to be Merida. And so I said great let's do and she's like, I want a wig and I was like no way if you have hair just like Meredith we're going to get some orange hair spray paint. I'm going to spray your hair orange, which we did would like I'm certain I poisoned myself.

19:04 Aerosol hairspray orange paint stuff, but I felt very strongly that you know, that would have whoever she was going to be playing she had to have the sense that she was fine as that character and you know, we went as the parents from them. We had a family Halloween costume. I feel like it is it is a constant battle bail and you don't you know, I don't want to be so unwilling to let her engage in any of it becomes like TV forbidden fruit. Like I don't want it to be so utterly fascinating. But I also you know, I'm just constantly trying to make sure that it leans in the direction of content and images that are forming.

19:52 Laughing because I think

20:00 I just feel like all kinds of color are dealing with some some level and there's just no there's no way to escape and I think for us one of the big things are trying to maintain the balance of having him feel a sense of Pride. And and in at the same time, not you to sleep. Demon eyes everything, you know, so that you have to have that balance that looks like it's going to be dark Vader. It's going to be. Keep the mask on and he don't but I think it's a big part of it. What do you feel?

20:36 I think I'm

20:39 Which we talked about this before?

20:43 What do you feel?

20:46 Resume questionnaire

20:48 Have there been any times at school that you felt like it was Adlai has come home and said anything about anything race can color hair. Just whatever. I think I mean, I think it's complicated. The thing that I really noticed about her school that was interesting for me in terms of shifting from the perspective of kind of an adult thinking about Race 2 what happens in a 4 and 5 year olds eyes. It was a really interesting shift for me.

21:24 You know, she said something about like, you know, I'm one of the amount amount of to brown kids at my school. And what's interesting to me in Berkeley. Is there a lot of multiracial kids in Berkeley and so I come from a place if I didn't have identity politics. I think it's been it's been really important to shift and reclaim narratives and communities of color that it's not that people are not black enough for not Latino enough for not Asian enough for not native enough for not terrible enough that multiracial people are part of the community of people of color and you know, maybe having some differences and experience but let's expand the black experience to include people who are multiracial with expand the Latino experience to include people who are multiracial. There is no in between, you know, you're not neither this nor that like, you know, these are the cultures of our planet and you're part of one of them or you know hybrids that create that have different experiences, but there's no there is really no other

22:25 So that's been really important to me and that's part of the politic that I carry but it's still interesting to see that from the perspective of the brown girl with the two African Heritage parents that she at her school, even though there's 30% kids of color like love those kids are blond or no have lighter colored eyes. None of them have really dark brown skin. It's like her and one other African Heritage girl who also has two African Heritage parents who look really darker than the other kids. And so there's that sense of being different and so it's been really interesting for me to notice that to notice her noticing difference and I think if it weren't for all the racism of the society, it could just be any little different but I also think about how when I walk into a supermarket, I'm rushing I'm looking for five things. My eyes are only looking for the five things. I'm looking for but you know like you said

23:25 Sponge face when I'm in a supermarket. My daughter is soaking up everything. She sees all those magazines. She's learning. You know, what women are supposed to look like that woman's images of women are everywhere selling everything attracting people's eyes, you know, all that stuff that she's learning and I it's so not all but I think that a lot of times in the questions, I'm I'm starting to understand how much she's taking in and and what an impact all of that nonverbal visual material in the media has in our socialization. I don't notice it anymore, but it doesn't mean that it hasn't historically impacted me that it's not impacting all our kids and it's just it's very profound. So I think yeah, that's the thing that I've seen I seen her noticing difference. I seen her, you know kind of wrapping her mind around their friends for a while. We didn't use

24:25 Racial words or spell them now course, she started this thing of like leadership and

24:41 Wanting her to have media literacy to cuz as I mentioned before the

24:48 You know in terms of creating black lives matter actions for small children, one of the keys for me has been not about talking about current events, but helping them understand what depression is and also helping them understand the depression is based on socially constructed things that don't that aren't actually real and it is hard for adults to wrap their minds about that race is socially constructed but yet it's affecting people's why? Yes, that is that's the deal. It's socially constructed and it's affecting people's eyes. And so for example with the parents Adams organizing with we I really pushed hard instead of us talking about race or police for us to use the story book The Sneetches because what's great about the story book The Sneetches is you have these two groups of Sneetches who kind of look like Burns of creatures one has stars on their bellies the other one doesn't and that

25:49 Random little thing is the basis for social hierarchy and then some guy comes along who offers put stars on the other ones and then the social hierarchy is raised and then you get upset and so then they're like the other Sneetches going to take their Stars off cuz they're not in style anymore and basically goes through this and makes all this money off of The Sneetches until they learn like actually a Sneetches kitchen were all equally good and that to me is the lesson that we want the kids to learn for them to understand the formula of Oppression understand that there's a divide-and-conquer going on understand that there's a manipulation going on before they start applying that model to anyting race gender class nationality to understand that there's an underlying basis of humanity and that attempts to divide US based on whatever are not real.

26:48 And yet McBean does get away with all the money there is there is a level of reality but what is based on isn't reality and I feel like the small kids. That's really My Hope because they're so literal. You can see them, you know thinking like, oh, I am Brown and you are this and this person's hair is that and they're still trying to figure out what can change and what isn't going to change right? So I feel like those are such Chi lessons for them around around this age and that's sort of where I've been trying to put my energy in terms of protecting from the white supremacy images and ideology and like you said trying to do damage control around the imprinting will you know with these different white role model to they're just like, oh they're so amazing, you know and figuring and picking my battles right always

27:48 And I love that just fat lady as a lesson and I think it's it for me. It's always like we sharing to hear of a way to approach it because I've been really hesitant to take me to go to any kind of you know, there's been times where people like always going to be family friendly, you know protest and then it's like five hundred more people showed up and I'm done for me and you know it took to take him to place where I don't feel like maybe isn't save or even just mentally like, I don't know what he's going to be picking up from the documentary the adults were upset. So I want to do more but I think it's really about how to approach it where I'm not going to be scaring him. I'm not going to be scaring us and that we are in a place where he's he's learning and also feeling like he has kids who are sharing that experience and I think one of the things that I really I think it's so important for us in terms of raising Mateo with keeping him in a community of kids who have similar

28:48 That our understanding how he feels that our understanding and so we've been doing sort of its informal soccer and he isn't even like soccer but it's really about the color. I do families that are like-minded because I want him to understand because I think was specially when it comes to schools you don't have as much control over who's in your school community in a while. You'll find you know, a lie isn't in People's Community. There is also a lot to battle in and I mention that I went to this conference about cultivating joint education for black boys and so much of our conversation during that conference was really kind of how to sort of amend the kind of that sort of Silence cars at the kids are taking it, you know, when it's time to draw their self portrait in there. Like why don't I have blue eyes X on Hulu or you know, how come my hair doesn't do with this person's does and and really getting them to continue to feel a part of a community. Where may be there.

29:48 But they're not and Sophie creating communities for us is important and so having friendships with kids who are of color of the of the age having parents, you know who are progressive is really important and I'm realizing now and it's such a different parenting world for me. Now from the first time around where you kind of disappeared played with where was in the neighborhood you had your few friends and it was just sort of the he know they negotiated their own relationship where we are now building their relationships and we're building their community and we're building the images that are exposed to even more so than that and I was in the early nineties and I'm realizing the impact of it, you know even more because seeing the difference of him hanging out with a few kids, who are there UV I start to see he's like all you know, and so we're really working on it with some things. I appreciate when you guys are around.

30:39 Sleep around more kids, but by realizing you and raising our kids we have to constantly think about that and if you are in a neighborhood or school or any place where you're feeling I swear that you have to create that sense of community regardless of where you are and I and I don't know if either parents have to think about it as much. Yeah, I mean, what do you wish that my parents knew about raising my kids?

31:08 I know it's like a bit more work. You have to do to carve out a space for your kid. But what else do you wish I think for me, I wish that they understood how much?

31:29 Guess

31:32 The additional work that our kids are negotiating all the time, you know, their kids are in all kids are trying to figure out everything, you know, right now. We're into the solar system in this is all of these would have educational lesson and then the social and I think for our kids they're really trying to create a place. Where do I belong and because kids are often looking for something to identify with? Oh, you've got the same shirt as me or the same truck as me that if they don't have that they may be feeling lost. And so I wish parents would understand the impact of you know, TV, what would it be like to have your kids watch TV and never see a character that looks like your kid. What would it be like for your kids to go to a place to maybe get their hair combed Orcutt Oriental something like that and there's nothing that's appropriate for them. And so that the work of parents of color is a we are always having to do the extra work. He knows his teeth.

32:32 Display the media that you know, the physical space and times to make sure that our kids are feeling not isolated that they're feeling celebrated. And I think that celebration is so important when you were talking really about couldn't the protection that we do and should have what we introduce them to raise so much of that protection is making sure that they're actually loving themselves and I can say for myself anything for you know, almost every person. I know it's some point we have our own identity issues in crisis and you know, so Patron moments because we did not have enough of that and it is not even a parent who I think can do it all but I think that we have to try our hardest to create that environment. So I would want my parents to know that if there's a lot of other work that goes on for our kids and that they're negotiating a lot of other understanding the relationships that the kids aren't you were saying that I remembered what you were.

33:32 Before about retail battle and I think one of the things that I that popped into my mind if I would like white parents to take on those retail battles with us, right because it's this private if this private property approach like my children need these images. So I wish my children could have these images and I'm going to find other parents who look like me and we'll decide we wish we had more of this kind of doll, but I think you know, one of the things that would be great because at the end of the day, you know, these products are about what cells like, what would I go out and buy some. Even if it's not your kids favorite one, right and to push, you know, like what would I

34:24 Just got a wild. What would it look like if white parents were having some of the same battles that we're having like you want the Brown doll now, like what if they're having some of those battles, you know, it's it's shocking outrageous but not surprising what you were saying earlier that here. We have Home the movie with the brown girl and you can't and they have like made everything else the car the mushroom The public's no the cat the little creature, you know, the spare wheel the building in the distance. They made a toy out of everything but the brown girl, right and so but what would it be like if white parents were like my kid wants that that girl character. Where is it? Right that would be incredible and I have to say to that it's been interesting. I have mixed feelings about these about these merchandising characters, but it's been really in

35:24 Mustang to see white children come to school in Dora Diego Doc McStuffins paraphernalia, right and I had never like in my childhood in my Adolescence in my young adulthood. I never ever saw white people, you know wearing any kind of children's cartoon characters that were of color like ever ever ever maybe by the time they were young adults who would sometimes see white people wearing like hip-hop musicians like music, but by the time folks are into music they're in their teens and Beyond so it's been interesting. I think that that makes a difference to like if you get into a half that you know with retail battles half the time you're buying stuff and you're just like, here's your new underwear right? Not like they're choosing and when my parents make those kinds of

36:24 Choices, it really sends a different message. I also would say like when it comes to Disney, I really think that stuff is so poisonous and it's poisonous for everybody because it's poisonous for girls and boys because of the, you know Romance by occupation in sexualized unrealistic body shapes and you know preoccupations with marriage. Like I just think that stuff is really toxic but particularly, you know, like out of school a white parent with a white kid who looks reasonably like those dolls, you know can can can bring them to school The Lunch Box shirt the jacket without sort of without

37:06 Without it being

37:08 So different from how their child looks that their child would definitely kind of get that scrunched up frowny face Aiko your face my face so different which one's okay, right, but just what it means to the brown kids in their school environment when they are in an intimate space like that being bombarded by yet more images of the sort of White characters. Yeah. I definitely love her folks to know that favor for you, you know just for folks to be aware aware if you know some of the negative stuff I think for all kids, but particularly what that means for brown children to have just this never-ending parade of white images and I would even follow up with the idea that when there is at least in our house winner is that one black action figure out of the group of 10, he's usually not presented as a leader who remembers and as the most exciting so I'm like sitting here trying to talk.

38:08 Lando I'm sitting here trying to talk to tell me the cloud city. I mean is all of these wingz it, you know, I thought about this but around Christmas and Kwanzaa. I went on a mission and I probably thought maybe 10 different, you know, kind of figures at all. And I was like, that's all he's getting right now. There's not going to be as you can go if you've got enough Luke Skywalker's in the house, but he didn't have the connection with those in the same way because they're not plastered on the TV or the movies of the side guy that the background characters, you know, and so even answer you like we're sitting here trying to fight to get these toys the kids aren't even excited about everything. That was my calling. You got to love talkin and he's like whatever but I would want you to parents it be curious because I know if more why parents brought these Brown dolls Brown dolls and store totally know and so I wonder about that do I parents don't even think about having diapers toys and their household, you know, it's something that that we think about and something with her, but she's got

39:08 You know, I don't know how many countries but I I wonder if that's the same thing. And so I think the awareness that the parents of color always have is you know that we're always trying to make sure our kids are seeing and being aware of everything and aware of themselves. And so I would want my parents to know that it helps us and helps our children to also make sure their children aware of those things. That's right. Either to make sure the children are seeing the disparity if there's this way that we sort of start hijacking The Narrative will actually but one of the things that I also have found that really has been making a difference has been like literally hijacking The Narrative like writing almost fanfiction for my daughter about these characters where I'm just hijacking narratives, like one of the things that she's so into right now is these Rainbow Magic fairy books and you know the fairy

40:08 Various colors, but the the core of the story is very very white very middle-class England. You know, when you have these two girls with who are utterly interchangeable characterized it's not even like there's the sporty one exactly the same and I was like her and her friend and you know where everything all of the cultural references in the story are European. I just started writing one with some African, you know kind of cosmological in mythological

40:49 Character in a mythical underpinnings because I just think there's there's someplace where we have to you know, where parents of color until we can shift things in the society in the literature in the media and in the kind of marketing of these toys to our kids just creating other stores and I edit while I read like I just change things all the time. Yeah. I think that that's also really important. I mean for me it's even got as far as like I want to write or let me see if I can sell some of this before that and you know, as you know, I did a puffy hair book just have pictures of kids with puffy hair, but I think even Beyond products is just like creating those those stories and I know like with bedtime stories when kids are going to bed, you know that she wants us to read before she also wants us to tell her stories.

41:49 Good Lord by Byron. It's like it's late. I'm ready to go to sleep. But I want to make a long story but thinking about like what are the stories I can tell right and what's missing out there and one of the stories that I will just take it upon myself to try and tell and no put together some kind of vague plot, you know, and what are the political what's the political content that I'm trying to get in there? It's hard. It's hard to figure out but it's yeah, it feels like it's kind of the good fight. It is 11:00. It's it's interesting to I think all parents do but we do a lot of Stories on the S5 what I call them and they always start Mateo and he's always like very quickly with the Bears make Mateo eat, whatever they got in the car. Now where were driving and when he's bored or getting anxious I start a story and then I have him do a part in the Takeover. And so that's been a lot of fun. But you know, I was thinking about that too cuz we're all feeling of the books or any of the books in the toys. I like the two places you have to constantly be pushing it and I found it.

42:49 When people give me books that are supposed to be in about promoting diversity I have issues with those books, you know, and so and I and we hold onto a lot of my books. We've had books generations of our family and and we really mean it's just I think as a writer that such an important part of our our time with him and I are teaching him but what it comes to meet with it with all of this is there's not really like I think one big race talking with a constant conversation and that conversation isn't what we let them watch what we let them hear what we read to them what we were talking about themselves and that we are always kind of having the race talk in different forms and that we are always a no finding ways to you know, sometimes breaking the more sort of hard news and that, you know harder kind of moments in in brutal awareness, but we are also having to kind of teas and cokes and you know it

43:49 Courage them to find that out of the way to love themselves with this awareness at the same time. It's like these are really terrible things but great you're still fantastic. And so I think that you know, all of these things that we do or where are just kind of the small parts of our constant conversations about about raising it and identity and if our kids self-esteem and you know, even now with my 21 year-old, there's there's no end to the conversations in are now we talked about the Buddha Parts because he's old enough to understand them but it's just reminds me of how to work, you know, the work doesn't end and it's all connected and that even when it's seemingly just a game or just a fun story that it's all it's also Depart of the fight and I think you're right. It's a good fight and I think there's a way that you know, the talk is really important and I don't I don't remember a talk from when I was a kid and you know, I'm sure there were plenty of talks and talking that happened but

44:49 Like I also remember the actions, you know, so I think that part of it for me in terms of like, you know, like you said you want to raise young people of color with the ability to love themselves in spite of growing up in an environment where there's racism and white supremacy and the the sense of their inferiority is reinforcing a long way. And so I think one of the biggest things that we can do is of course love them and also that they can see loving relationships between people in their community and it doesn't mean like you must marry someone who's exact same course, it doesn't mean that it just means that they need to see loving relationships. And so that means you know, either between their parents are between, you know, whatever parent who's raising them in that person's friends or you know, family members like just seen that warmth and that love is really really important in figuring out when people have you know,

45:49 Co-parenting relationships marriages, whatever that don't work out that doesn't mean that you have to like keep the postcard picture. But just that they are seeing different kinds of relationships. I think that we're people like love and respect and care about each other and that's so important and I think you know, my my parents were activists and my mom bought police brutality in the eighties and I grew up with probably TMI about it around the dinner table, but I definitely grew up with the sense like, oh no, this is we're not we're not having that buy people are fighting people are fighting and and I think that that was really important. I think that's a thing to like you said it to have those fun places like when you were talking about soccer with other families of color. That's great. Yeah. I just having people getting together and having kids seeing that and also I think trying to find those age appropriate ways of protesting. Oh and you know, when we see stuff what are things that I did that I

46:49 I was like really good we were in Target and whatever there were no girls on the yo-yos. They were like all these boys and I might want to take a picture of the sense of life being part of the outrage, you know, being part of the outrage and having them in our as I call Delia's I might take a picture of you make a mad face Edo Ya Ya and just noticing and I am I don't know, you know, who knows what she makes of it, but the idea that like what this is not okay, we're going to do something when I thought she ever now that she sees it gets fixed. But I think that you know for me, that's the thing about trying to raise leaders that you want to have a sense of like we're going to do something we can do something and then we feel better after we do something.

47:40 And that's how I know you're leading your teaching her to be a waiter and that I think that that's you know, the only way we really can do any of this and said we have to leave by example and get them to learn to leave themselves and that's

47:56 And yet I mean, you know, we've talked about this a bunch of just all the things on our plate as black mom like its extreme, you know, like the just the work of parenting even under the best of conditions is a lot of work then you know, we're both working moms. We're both writers with these writing projects that you know are labor-intensive for many years with no income and then you and also being really intentional in X terms of trying to curate our kids experience at the world any thoughts about that.

48:42 We kind of talked about this before I said all those experiences in some ways, I think also inch alright, so we are always bouncing kind of the mental weight of all of those other experiences to our own personal Journeys are kids Journeys are Partners during these are political Journeys in some ways I think for us individually for you and I really really work I think into are in some way and some interpretation and so I almost feel like we never drop that load balancing it in some way he know where juggling it. We may be moving things around but they we are always holding on to some part of it and I know from me I never feel like I can just write exclusively in the repair work. I can just do anything inclusive way. It is always with five things in my hand and something on the end of my toe and something on top of my head. And so I think we're you know maintaining a balance.

49:42 You know this conversation we've been having about raising leaders and then just the thought that comes to me is like and motherhood is this place of really deep leadership, you know and is black moms and black women like really taking that place of leadership and figuring out

50:00 And it's that it's that world and domestic sphere balance, right? Because you know just in the conversation that you have privately with your kid and the decisions you're making the supermarket in the conversation to have with the preschool teacher in the other parents. Like there's a level of leadership there. And then the writing is sort of taking it out into the world right and trying to have a bigger platform or soap box or whatever for our leadership and just it seems like really at every it is the good fight like at every turn. There's just this huge set of obstacles whether it's you know, the sex is of how things are set up in marriage both or in parenting both in terms of like policies, you know of the society or expectations in the home that it's this battle but yet it really is a good fight and I feel like one thing that I really appreciate about you is like yes, I'm not fighting this alone.

51:01 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I feel like that that makes that makes the good fight not just tolerable but good.

51:13 I know. I know you were talking about way back but sort of the way.

51:21 Racialization for young girl plays out and I was wondering Milan if you could talk like a little bit about like

51:28 The way that plays out for boys and part of his enacted on male bodies as something you're trying to carry in opposition to definitely kind of I think my first response is just that

51:45 We spent a lot of time and you making sure girls feel beautiful and important but not too much with boys and both of my boys have had certain parts of their lives have had questions about their hair, you know and wanted to have different hair and and wanting to have different skin and I think that people forget the boys have the same needs and we spent a lot of times and girls image and Body Image stuff but not too much for boys. And then if it is a boy in the end it's a black boy is in immediate usually got to be this, you know, super strong physical kind of character, you know, it's not really about being intelligent. It's not about you know, being creative and so you're sort of in a position of number one trying to get them to still feel physically like they love themselves and to not compare themselves to these kind of difficult sudokus stereotype or or just even these unrealistic characters heroes. You know, what about just a regular black man, there is no, you know could have a doll for that and

52:45 I think I'm it's something that that I struggle with and especially right now with Mateo and and come out has gotten older but he went through a phase of we not wanting to come here like other characters and Ann Mateo has two and so really trying to find ways to help them see that the beauty in themselves and to also understand that they're much more complex than what is so that you know, what were the fridge and girls to do science and all these things that we also remember that with boys and I think that was a Buena Park Boys in particular. It's something that I think that's me in the conversation.

53:22 How can I chimed in and it's so great. It's so great hearing you talk about this and you know in that I haven't raised the boy. I don't I'm not as aware of that and I think

53:36 I just had a thought about with sexism.

53:40 You know girls get taught that their value as their parents right and boys get taught that their value is sort of their powerful mess with their ability to accomplish or achieve or mass resources and in both cases there, you know, people are systematically taught to feel bad about themselves across-the-board whether it's for their mind or their power or their appearance, but because that isn't the thing that then gets home din on for boys, it's like not something that we've necessarily put a lot of resources into helping them feel better. Right because girls get told well appearance is everything and so then if you're not Measuring Up in terms of appearance, you're all anxious and whatever where is you know girls are a lot of times will be like Oh, I'm not good at math and that's fine like, you know for sure if they probably would be good at math. But second of all, it's just sort of abandoning these things and so it's interesting to think about

54:40 How the places where boys don't feel good about themselves, whether it's you know boys of color around raise or just Boys in general around not looking like Superman that gets pushed aside survival. That's not important just focus on the things that the society thinks are important to you, but then they're sort of operating on top of this sort of swamp of not feeling good about themselves. And we and I think we see that show up in a lot of ways. It's really interesting to think about boys vulnerability there. I think, you know raising a girl it's just in my face and such a strong way cuz women are objectified but it's damaging for boys who are into sports and I won't go out me to buy older son was not into sports and that sort of like, where is your black boys? Are you there? What can you eat now contribute oneself and come very very limiting.

55:36 Good question.