Michael Hill and Nicole Lockwood

00:03 My name is Nicole Lockwood. I am almost 38 years old at today's date is July 16th, 2016. We are at the San Francisco Public Library and I'm here talking to my dad Miguel Ortiz Hill.

00:25 I am Miguel.

00:29 Ortiz Hill

00:33 I published a book Center they Michael Ortiz Hill.

00:40 I am 59 years old is July 16th, 2016?

00:49 We're in the San Francisco Public Library.

00:54 And relationship partner partner would be self I guess.

01:02 Oh, I know partner know Nicole my daughter.

01:11 Okay, Dad. It sounded like you wanted to start this off by singing ritual song. So I'll let you.

01:23 Well

01:25 In Zimbabwe they call her and meet Zemo, which I translate from Shawna.

01:32 As the ancestor beneath all of the ancestors her name in Shona.

01:40 Which is a language in Zimbabwe is mbuya boy boy grandmother spider.

01:49 Her name among the novel people in their language is called the neighbors. I'd let their language.

01:57 She is not Jay Edda.

02:01 Spider-Woman

02:04 And this song is a hybrid of both Shona and Navajo.

02:14 I'm blue your boy boy boy.

02:18 I'm Bo yo boy boy.

02:21 I'm Bo yo boy boy.

02:25 Mambo ya boy boy

02:28 Send a guy a whole show.

02:35 9 J and Zoe

02:41 And that's it.

02:44 What made you want to invoke Spider-Woman for our interview today?

02:55 I'm a medicine man. Otherwise known as a manga.

03:00 With the Shona and the Zulu people of Zimbabwe

03:06 And when I first met the man is known as member patch cough, which means my twin brother.

03:14 Who initiated meme?

03:17 Yes, baby who brought me there?

03:23 And I said spider. She makes all the connections.

03:29 So as a mizimu I call on spider to help me with my evening rituals.

03:39 And she comes well as at you know part of our dichotomy, I guess in our relationship visit your very spiritual and as we were talking about on the way here, I'm an atheist and not don't identify as spiritual but I do appreciate symbolism and and I connect with this idea of invoking Spider-Woman because the imagery of of the web and connectedness is is Meaningful to me and I appreciate this.

04:21 Image as we go forward with this conversation of thinking about the the connectedness between the two of us and in recording this having the this recording available to Future generations to my son-in-law when he's older to listen to and to have this recording be something that can can connect with our family to us. So I appreciate you invoking Spider-Woman and of course, the spider makes me think of your tattoo of the spider which we were together when you got that tattoo in Ashland Oregon vs. And

05:15 And the I know for you that tattoo was also really symbolic of of healing from your multiple sclerosis. The spider on your lower back has a line which is the web going all the way down from your lower back all the way up to your skull really following your your spinal cord. And my understanding is that that is about really helping your brain connects with your body because that's one of what happens with Ms. Is that your brain and your body aren't communicating in the way they should so do you want to speak to that a little bit about your decision to get that tattoo and and what that means to you with the MS?

06:12 Long time ago, meaning 2003

06:17 As in Mariah the show de had Ms. Lesions.

06:23 Frankly on my heart chakra my throat tracker of my third eye.

06:29 My corpus callosum

06:34 And my brain stem

06:37 So I think of the thread

06:41 We being together.

06:46 What is been damaged?

06:49 So I've been with that since

06:54 And

06:57 Spider is a peerless.

07:05 A long time ago

07:08 I was in Zimbabwe.

07:11 With my ex-wife

07:14 And my massage, my twin brother.

07:20 Boys getting married to his girlfriend to zoo the woman now the Shona and the Zulu

07:29 Traditionally we're enemies.

07:32 Are the Bloods yet?

07:35 So

07:38 He and his wife smoke, okay?

07:42 Harassing my wife

07:45 Formalize the marriage together

07:48 So

07:50 We're performing the marriage ceremony.

07:54 I know green spider crawled on my hand.

07:59 And I went to my patch. Can I put it in his hand?

08:05 Any

08:07 British transfers a spider took his body.

08:13 And I said in my mind, it's a I am really out of my depth.

08:20 I don't know how you do a weddings at Monday with us.

08:27 I was just Little Women and the spider.

08:31 But I did so

08:34 As did my ex-wife.

08:39 TubeMate

08:41 Heading red

08:47 As I often said to you non sequitur.

08:52 My first interaction with my dad's awesome.

08:56 I said I must fight in your war of Liberation. We should just say to liberate the African people.

09:08 From Rhodesian apartheid

09:14 I was involved with terrorists in the United States.

09:18 And they were going to

09:24 Train and fight in Zimbabwe on behalf of the anti-apartheid forces.

09:34 And my bochco said to me, she said I know why you didn't fight.

09:41 And he said your ancestors are peacemakers.

09:48 They are warriors.

09:52 And with that I will begin my initiation into the Inn, the water spirits.

10:00 Which is a peacemaking tradition.

10:05 Na using tradition

10:08 Winter Jam mid zimu like spider

10:12 The water spirits of the oldest of balls of the ancestors

10:18 The ancestor World beneath the ancestral world

10:25 And because I'd almost bought.

10:30 In in what does that road Zimbabwe?

10:35 Amazon spot in their War

10:39 I was totally accepted by our clan, which is shown that end in the belly.

10:49 Well, I have always thought of you as a peacemaker as well. And when and I feel like you were a real model of of that when I was growing up that you

11:05 When we travel together, you helped me see the differences the different ways that people live when we travel to Mexico and Guatemala Belize and but also there was a strong sense of

11:28 Of the shared humanity and I be really instilled a lot of values in me around seeing our shared Humanity with with people in spite of their differences and really operating in it in a peacemaking way just in day today relationships and that serve me really well in my relationships.

11:58 Again by way of non sequitur

12:06 It was baby toddler, Nicole.

12:12 I realized I was really after getting shot.

12:19 I mean

12:21 I would my real spiritual practice when I was trading with my Terrace friends.

12:31 I would imagine.

12:34 Everyday many times a day.

12:38 Pointy Granite somebody and pulling the trigger.

12:45 Mean worm

12:48 I had a little baby today Sheriff.

12:52 And ain't no way I was going to fly off to be a war.

12:59 When I had a kid to take care of really glad that you had those priorities straight and and that you made that choice and you related really show up as a dad for me. And I know we had a relationship when I was a child that was really much closer than most of my friends had with their fathers and it's been really I know at times we've talked about the MS as a gift or the gift of illness and I think that and I'm one of the aspects of it being a gift is that we have reconnected over the past year or so and ENT because of the Ms. And you coming to live closer to me and being a real active Parton.

13:59 In my life and in your grandson Shiloh's life and that's been really really a great gift to us. And and I hope you feel the same way you express that you do and very much. So that's it's really been wonderful. I know that it hasn't been easy. Yeah the things that kind of brought us here to this decision to for you to come and be live closer to us and

14:33 That and I asked and that accepting your limitations as a result of the IMs has not been easy.

14:48 Non sequitur wives

14:53 I've

14:56 As I wrote in one of my books.

15:00 I've been a freelance hermit.

15:05 Ice have spent two years alone completely alone in the forest.

15:14 And dumb

15:18 Her for years

15:21 I took care of an old woman who had a mass.

15:26 And as she had only control of her facial muscles.

15:33 And I would been staged all night.

15:36 One time

15:39 I want to say I'm is atheist.

15:44 I came to Elsie I had been in this weird ass.

15:54 How do you say post Catholic hallucination?

15:59 I would meditate a longer bed all night long.

16:06 And in my post Catholic mind

16:11 She was a virgin of Christ crucified.

16:16 I was sure she had to be very depressed.

16:23 And one time I came to work.

16:26 Was breaking up with my girlfriend. Vianney.

16:31 We would do.

16:36 Well my ex-wife Tina cause of trespass. Oh.

16:41 We would look into each other's eyes.

16:44 And I told I'll see that.

16:47 And she said why don't we do it that's looking each other this eyes together, and I said I'll see.

16:56 Yes.

16:58 With Elsie because she was at a tracheotomy and was on the ventilator.

17:05 I had to read your lips.

17:08 For our conversations

17:11 And if I could read the word I'll get Nampa back in and squeezes through a tracheotomy so she could vocalize of word or two.

17:23 I said I'll see you know.

17:29 Some people in your situation. She asked me how I was doing I said

17:35 I'm a little sad.

17:39 He said why I said well I think life is sad sometimes and she said I rarely feel sad.

17:49 I said LC.

17:52 She's been in bed for 30 years.

17:56 People would think it would be hard for you and she said I just don't play things worry me.

18:05 And I realized that moment.

18:12 LC was fine. This was not Christ on the cross for God sake.

18:19 She had

18:23 Loving nurses and her husband.

18:28 And she was definitely a Pentecostal. She had Jesus.

18:34 She was fine. I realize okay. I've got to drop my own this nation, and I realized take care of Elsie was just talking with her for

18:51 20 minutes at the beginning of your shift and then meditating all night long.

18:58 Then severing suffering through

19:02 Pat Robertson in the morning

19:06 But then I will go home and then go to sleep.

19:11 Wake up a few hours later.

19:14 Is it time to be a dad?

19:18 Selm

19:20 Her for years I was with her.

19:24 And after those four years

19:28 I went to the forest and spend a few months alone meditating.

19:35 So I was a freelance hermit.

19:39 It was simply sitting alongside LC that learned for the wires to sit still and meditate.

19:49 And that was my job.

19:52 It it seems like when I mean, I'm sure this relationship with Elsie and your time with her was on your mind when you found out that you also had Ms. And I think a lot of people who know you would would feel the same about you that you don't protect self-pity or about your your condition and you really carry it with a lot of with a lot of Grace.

20:25 Do you how would you how would you describe your your mental state or your process of acceptance of is really great. Give to my adult life.

20:41 I know you've talked about it being a gift in the sense that it liberated you from working as a nurse in the hospital and the conflicts that you had with being with what you had to do in hospitals with the type the the way they're caring for patients there. Sometimes felt more like torturing them you

21:16 And that was again LLC.

21:20 Home Care

21:22 Heaven I realized after 4 years is that

21:28 Hell I haven't even taking a blood sugar in 4 years much less start to have Foley catheter me down.

21:37 Routine stuff you do in the hospital. I was trained in it, but I never practice. I realize I had to go to the hospital.

21:48 So I did.

21:50 You can but when you went to work in the hospital and I think all the time.

22:00 About this man that I killed.

22:07 Which is to say quiet in ordinary story.

22:12 As a nurse

22:15 Following doctor's orders

22:18 There are studies that say

22:23 What they call a guy a transgenic killing had to drink meaning that's the Greek word.

22:35 English Greek origin about people being killed by Western medicine

22:44 And more people die.

22:49 From Western medicine

22:51 The new thing else certainly allow more than cancer or heart problems.

23:01 And dine, I think about the people I killed.

23:06 Think about the people I saved and that real.

23:12 And the people I drove crazy. So I told you as I recall.

23:20 God

23:23 In her infinite kindness alleviated me of my career.

23:32 And I don't regret it at all. I see that and it's giving you more time to write which you've also.

23:43 So I'm just thinking something I wanted to share in this context is just about what I what I feel I've gained from you Dad growing up. A lot of people are surprised by me friends have said that that I just I just I guess how down-to-earth I am or how I don't how I'm not so materialistic or things like that and I really need your credit you a lot to do that. I feel like you very intentionally raised me with this with this idea that you really don't need a lot of material things and that those are not the most important things. We you know living

24:39 Living with you in a in a what we used to call the reconverted garage, but they weren't really reconverted. Basically just living and sheds growing up in sheds growing up dumpster diving spending time in the third world. It really I always had enough, you know, we we were quite poor and buy some definitions homeless not living in a typical what some would consider adequate housing but but I never felt deprived at all. And in fact at times I felt very I mean I loved of course dumpster diving and the candy Harmony Foods getting deformed gummy bears and stuff and and discarded Easter candy after Easter and you know, it was quite a fun adventure and

25:39 Any and then N1 memory that really comes to me is when we lived at when you built me that little Shack next to the shed. I was you know, you built me the shack out of scrap wood and and scrap carpet remnants and I remember I got to splatter paint the walls. I got to paint it. However, I wanted I got and I had my own I felt like I had my own separate space and I was so proud of that. I was around 11 years old and I was so proud of that and just thinking when I tell people about that now, you know that they assume that a child would be embarrassed to bring friends home when they lived in a in a shed, but I was actually Beyond proud of my own little Shack and then I had my own space and and it was also just very you were you were conscious that I was getting to an age where I would

26:39 I want my own space. That was a really aware aware of you two to realize that.

26:47 Are you evil?

26:50 I do want to say maybe especially girls boys. Sure.

26:57 To have a private place.

27:00 Where you want me make out or something, you know?

27:08 I wanted you to have a private place for whatever.

27:15 And then of course the earthquake game.

27:20 And then we're really officially homeless that at all now that you say it that way I can I can see how you know, if that was the case that we but we ended up staying at that very nice place and Paradise Park and it was actually it's funny that you say then we were officially homeless when in fact that was the first time we actually lived in a real house. We had to leave the shack. We are living in end move in and live in I don't even know how you came by that a friend's house and myself but mostly her living in a house for the first time.

28:10 Well, if fishing them, let's go to the bank at the Salvation Army to get food and I remember that I remember, you know, you getting food from the Salvation Army and you know powdered milk and things like that and I think they gave candy bars while I remember we would sell remember in front of Salvation Army. I would sell Donuts that you found in the trash like the day-old Donuts. You remember that whatever throw away the day after I got them at the dental place on Ocean Street a discarded donuts and then I would sell them on the street, but it's always always just such a big adventure these things that could have been thought of his like this embarrassing Act of poverty of selling Donuts from the trash on the street corner and yet for me that was, you know, absolutely an adventure. Thanks.

29:10 Always such an adventure with you and Jim.

29:18 When I was them.

29:26 I was homeless in Santa Cruz for 3 years.

29:31 And I definitely there dump dumpster diving.

29:36 Which I continued obviously when I was a young Dad at work all night and Elsa's place. I know you don't get food.

29:52 And I will collect Lord.

29:58 Yeah, thank you. I meant I would collect food to bring up to the Black Panthers in Oakland.

30:07 And those making alliances

30:11 With black nationalist

30:17 Who among those were send me going to send me after Zimbabwe? I mean to Rhodesia.

30:26 Bite

30:28 But I will collect all sorts of food for the homeless people in Santa Cruz because they didn't know how to collect food. So I would bring huge amounts of food.

30:48 And leave for them before I will go to sleep.

30:53 And God knows for 5 hours.

30:58 And wake up.

31:00 Dizzy Whizz statelessness

31:05 To be your dad. So I am I want to steer the conversation a little bit in the direction of things some thoughts for Shiloh from yeah 6 year old now and

31:23 Why I'm obviously not taking him dumpster diving but I do also which is not something you can really do. So easily these days anyway, but but I do try to instill in him just to be joyful in with simple things and not not get sucked into the commercial commercialism and all the toys and me he has toys obviously, but just any even in the sense of at his birthday party encouraging our friends families to have their kids give him hand-me-down toys or second hand toys and he was delighted and I was so happy that he only had it, you know, maybe 8 or 10 presents and most of them were used and he was totally content with that. He wasn't overwhelmed like some kids. I see who get a million toys brand new fancy toys and they're just they become so overwhelmed they don't really in

32:23 But I guess just thinking when I was a kid you always we would do these time capsules and it would record me and asking these questions. So let's think about this for a moment. This recording is somewhat of a time capsule. And what would you is there anything you'd like to say to an older Shiloh? Who might call Yard to this recording in many years.

32:53 Just follow with the kindness of your heart.

33:00 It's for real.

33:03 And it touches everybody.

33:07 Yeah, yeah.

33:11 He's remarkable. He really

33:16 I mean, he's such a peacemaker himself and that he he likes to tell these stories about superheroes, but he doesn't want the superheroes to kill or even like jail as a bad guys or fight the bad guys. He always wants them to to make peace with the bad guys and to help steer the bad guys on the right path.

33:44 I think I should say a couple of words to have how I became, Grandpa Jojo.

33:54 My mother Nicole's grandma. She went by the name where Lita.

34:02 Which means little grandmother she's was a Mexican woman.

34:09 And I introduced myself to Shiloh when he was too when I said I am Wade Leto.

34:18 And he said go go. I said no way a leader and I pinched his toe.

34:28 You said yo, yo.

34:31 So I've been Grandpa yo-yo ever since and he adores you and when and when I tell him we're going to be seeing yo-yo. He just jumps up and down and the excitement is just visible and in him.

34:53 What man will you save these last 5 minutes?

35:01 No, let's think I guess it is there anything?

35:06 You

35:10 About what you learned for me from being such a young father and what maybe what you can say about parenting what parenting meant to you and I'm so proud of both of you.

35:29 And your ex Justin?

35:33 That like me and your mom.

35:37 Collaborate and raise the kid

35:42 Divorce yes and frankly righteously Happily Divorced.

35:51 But knowing that there was a kid.

35:55 It had to be loved and you and Justin do that.

36:02 Together you collaborate and

36:08 Whenever you and then try you and me try to figure out.

36:16 When you're going to be with Jess or he's going to believe he's going to be Shiloh to whatever.

36:25 Anyway

36:27 I can only think.

36:31 A poem about when your mom and I were always dealing with that. Yeah, she's talked about that to my mom and talked about how you would get together. She always says you get together one about once a month and just go over the calendar and figure things out and you really modeled that to me that this can be a family that does non traditional type of family can really still be a be a family and I I feel felt totally parented by both of you and never had any desire that I remember to have a family that all lived in one home and I for me it's extremely natural and normal to be raising Shiloh in the same way. And and I know that he is getting you know, a really great of bringing in this non-traditional family, and I know that Justin and I have talked about

37:31 Wanting to kind of take this to another level even then what you and my mom had in the sense of we want to do things more together all three of us and and we will be doing that more. Wish I was spending holidays and doing trips together. So we really are trying to kind of reinvent. What a divorced family can look like and right and take even what I had with you and my mom being a very amicable divorce family and taking it even to another level of closeness.

38:08 I'm remembering of course, you'll remember.

38:13 Marcia live like two blocks away from us forever and I came to units that you know, I'm getting along so well with your mom we could all live under the same roof. And you said no, right? Yeah. I remember that. I was around fifteen. I think it 14 or 15 and you and my mom was willing to rent out her laundry room to you as up to be your room and that we would all live under the same roof. But by that time I was so used to having for 10 years lived in two houses and kind of had my very individual relationship with you and with her and different rules applied at one house in the other and I was so used to that the idea of not having that seemed very strange and uncomfortable and and I see that was Shiloh that he has a very I think there's something special about an only child.

39:13 Who has divorced parents who are both very present in his life because he has such a close relationship with me and such a close relationship with his dad has been very intense one on one.

39:28 Connection which I also had with you and and my mom which is very unique I think way to be raised.

39:41 Among other things. I'm an author I have eight books publishing working on my 9th.

39:48 We just kind of drive me nuts cuz the perks of being terminal.

39:55 I think that's as we're wrapping up thinking about this idea of being terminal which as we've talked about know, I'm unconvinced you seem quite alive and and there's no signs that you are in in fact going to be dying anytime soon. But but I guess is they're you reflected a lot on the MS send and what it what it may mean to be losing. You know what it means. I guess Embrace today and not knowing what snacks so I guess any last thoughts on on that what if any advice or any advice to all of us who have not been at who have not been diagnosed with a serious chronic illness about how we should live

40:55 Well, you have it exactly one day at a time.

41:01 And me now if I fell righteous sending you.

41:06 A response to the lab. So you send me and they were so damn normal. I thought I sent you those the results of your lab test and you were totally within normal range. And and I loved your response were you said I'm a chronic or Terminal E. Where do you stay at Trump? Terminally healthy something like that something like an accurate enough?

41:36 You guys have any last words for each other? I love you. I love you too. You're the best I mean.

41:49 You are my hero and frankly.

41:55 Aside from you rescuing me as a toddler.

42:01 From being a terrorist.

42:04 Let me tell you.

42:12 I did it for you.

42:18 And

42:20 I have never regretted.