Sherri Harris and Sharon Becker
DescriptionColleagues Sherri Harris [no age given] and Sharon Becker [no age given] reminisce on their collaborative effort assisting victims of human trafficking.
Subject Log / Time Code
- Sherri Harris
- Sharon Becker
Recording LocationVirtual Recording
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00:05 It is in Orange, California. Today's date is March 19th, 2021.
00:21 My name is Sherri Harris.
00:23 And today's date is March 19th, 2021. My partner is sister, Sharon Becker. I'm sure Joseph Saint. Joseph has orange and we are colleagues.
00:34 Sherri, tell me a little bit about your background.
00:39 Well, that's complicated. So I currently I've been in the anti-trafficking field for about 19 years. So I started out very long time ago because I was interested in working with refugees until I actually got a degree in public health, where I studied refugees, and I thought I was going to live my entire life abroad and East Africa, or southeast Asia. And I kind of spent a lot of my time focused on the world. And I love that part of myself. I was raised in Southern California. So I had a lot of amazing opportunities to interact with people from all over the world. And I also have an amazing opportunity to work at a university. And I just had a really amazing life and I was on my way to work with refugees. And I took a group of students to Southeast Asia on a trip.
01:39 At one time. And I realized that I had a major heart for Injustice and I needed the kind of shape my life to focus on. How do I be a a person who interacts with Injustice and how do I help move the needle from being up in just world to a world where we actually care for people and take care of them. So my experience in Southeast Asia sent me on a different password, to get my Master's Degree and I Global health and then I ended up having to stay in the United States and I stayed in California and I worked at a little place called the Cambodian family, and we are Refugee organization and I a great time. I was working with immigrants and refugees and I was working with their children and I thought I was on my path until the federal government US government.
02:37 In 2000. And by 2003, they had started giving funding or Grant to ngos to work with victims of trafficking and just happened that in 2003, at the refugee agency. We got something I need to work with trafficking victims. And so I started on my journey from moved from working with refugees into working, with Travis mind-blowing, because we didn't really know what we were doing. But I spent my last since 2003, for my last 19 years, working in anti-trafficking, and I moved from California to Washington DC, so I can work for the federal government in about 2015. So, I am about 6 years into my work with the federal government working on anti-trafficking and trying to be a person that can make some movement at this level. Now that I have 20 years of experience in the India world. So that's kind of a little bit about me.
03:37 I have, I love kids. I have a wonderful family and I'm pretty passionate about coffee.
03:46 What about you? Tell me a little bit about yourself to st. Joseph's of orange, for fifty years, and I have a masters in Nursing & Women's Health, Women's Health, and also, as a certified nurse-midwife, in the University of California, San Francisco. I worked along the US, Mexico border, and also in Australia and Papua New Guinea. And in those times, I've worked with high-risk populations at the time. When I met you, Sherry, I was on our leadership team. And we have a very active Justice Center, and all of us were concerned about
04:29 Growing in a greater understanding of a human trafficking its causes and also how we might be able to help.
04:39 So sure you chose a little bit that you were working with Cambodia family, and I'm wondering how you actually got directly involved in working with survivors of human trafficking.
04:53 I think it was actually a random act of.
04:58 Something important because I was happily working with immigrant and their families when the scratch came out and to be honest, there just wasn't anyone else at the agency that was available to do the job. And so I agreed to be the program coordinator for our little trafficking program. At the Cambodian family and we were a group of 5 in California, Orange County, California that were funded to create an anti-trafficking program. And so I really came about by it by accident and it is amazing that it kind of shift in my entire life. So that's really all that happened. I'm just so glad that I was available and it piqued my interest in and out of the five ngos that were working on that issue. I've kind of had the longest duration and and been doing it longer than just about anybody. That was part of that that program. So
05:58 That's kind of how I got involved. And I kind of want to spend a little bit of time talking about how you got involved if you don't mind. Cuz I have a really
06:12 You, you made a big impact on my life in 2003 when I was a new case manager for trafficking victims. And I ended ended up identifying my first victim, and she was a pretty, I'm in a pretty precarious situation and her traffickers were high level and looked in our community and we really thought that there was some safety concerns. And so we were trying to find the best location to house her because of the time, you know, she was my first victim. We didn't have our systems of care set up like we do now. So we were struggling and I had participated in a Justice for him with another one of the one of your colleagues at the sisters of st. Joseph is orange and I loved her, I found her gauging and I trusted her from the beginning and I just thought she truly understood what Justice was and so I
07:12 As I was trying to figure out how to best. How's my client? I thought of her and so I gave her a call and I asked her this exact question. I asked her sister. Have you ever watch the strap?
07:31 Literally, that's what I said. And she said, well, yes, and I said, have you ever ridden people?
07:41 And she asked, again, I'll let you know. Seriously. I have you hidden people and she just kind of chuckled and she says, well, I'm not so sure about that. But why do you ask? And then I told her about my first client? I will call her Jane. And I, I was talking about Jane and how I really needed a safe place for her to start her new life outside of her trafficking situation. And she said, well, let me, let me have some conversations with some of my colleagues, and the leadership team at sisters of st. Joseph of orange. And so, she went and talked to you. So I am kind of curious how what you thought about when she came to you and asked about housing human trafficking victims. What was your first side? Especially when I asked if you can hide people?
08:35 Well, I think originally, what I was thinking about was we didn't understand.
08:42 And the other thing is, what we didn't know, what were the implications of creating a shelter or a home actually, where we would a house human trafficking survivors. And so I gather together a group of sisters, those who would say, yes, indeed. Let's offer them shelter and I also had around the table, a group who I thought would say. No, this is too risky. We cannot do this at this time. And I also invited you to be a part of that conversation and over the next six months. We became educated. You alerted us to some of the implications and you actually shared with us. What the needs were that the human trafficking survivors needed. And from that we assess our resources that were available to us and we thought about should we offer emergency housing or should we offer long-term housing? And in the end we said that we would offer long-term house.
09:42 Because most people would be offering emergency housing. The very few shelters at the time. Would be offering housing for a two-year period and we felt it would take at least two years to help in culture at the women, help them with their English and also to help them with a survival skills here in the United States.
10:06 And so it was so sure. It was because of your being a part of this that we created an inter-agency agreement between Cambodia family in ourselves and you were you would be the case manager. We would provide the Supportive Services that these women needed.
10:25 Yeah, what what?
10:29 I remember we were talking about how many women you could housing and we decided on two women so that they wouldn't be me if they would have company. And I, I just remember being so grateful because at the time, you know, we were having to use domestic violence shelters as our main form of housing in, you know, they served a purpose in and I still am so grateful that they took our clients at the beginning. But we knew that the other they didn't always belong in the domestic violence shelter. And so, you know, I was just so grateful that you were willing to kind of have this discussion with me and learn. And I just remember you becoming friends. Like, I still like you and your sister colleagues, we're friends now because of this journey that we went on and making sure that we did it, right? So, we make sure that we had good systems in place. When we made sure that, you know, we understood the risks, and we understood the benefits, and we got our boundaries, clear.
11:29 I was so pleased because at the time I was serving only foreign National victims of trafficking, because that's where the federal government with funding ngos in 2003 and 2004. We had initially thought that trafficking was mostly a issue with foreign Nationals come into our country that were being trafficked in. So that's where all the funding wasn't. So, you know, it's really stressful when you have a woman that doesn't speak English, or even Spanish in Orange county in California and you're putting her into a environment where her language isn't isn't spoken. And so, I was really trying to be careful and make sure that we were putting these women into a place where, you know, they would. That cultural context would be honored. And where you guys would we work? The remember our agreement was that if I asked you to take care of our house, survive,
12:29 Legends speak English or Spanish that that I would provide interpreters. And so that was my agreement with you. I just remember, you know, I had to work when I knew I was going to send someone from Thailand or Philippines are Ethiopia and Eritrea, which I did all of those that I was going to have to make sure that you had the language access you needed. So that you could provide care for them in and I just felt so comfortable when you had decided that that was. That was something you could facilitated. Remember also that, you know, I can only you were with them 24 hours a day and I may be provided an interpreter a couple hours a week. So I just was always impressed by the creativity that you and your sister. The other sisters had in here figuring out how to communicate and finding your own interpreters and making sure they had English and giving them some confidence in.
13:29 Not speaking a language. I actually remember one time. You bought one of the survivors at the time, we didn't have the internet and you bought them a little technology device that it was like a translator from English into their language in and you guys bought that for them so that they would have a way to communicate. So I just remember, you know,
13:51 Having those early conversations is trying to figure out what we're going to be the challenges and and language was definitely one of them. And I would say that if we did a survey to all survivors that lived in your home, that none of them, would it say that then not speaking English, hinder, their ability to feel cared for there. So, that was just a wonderful place for women who came from another country to settle into their new life and in America and it really, I just think that was just a wonderful gift that you gave them along with the food and the job skills in the English in the taking them shopping. Another favorite activity. That thing that you did is just the shared meals. I loved that. I knew that my clients were eating meals with wonderful women that cared about them and that they were invited to all the group activities that you and your sister.
14:51 Hiding, but they sell part of your family and I just really appreciate the intention to home that I felt there.
15:00 What was the important for us to provide them a safe environment where they did feel like they were at home? Cuz we realize that they were separated from their families. They didn't have friends. They've been horrific circumstances and anything that we can do to allay their Stress and Anxiety and to increase their trust in US was very critical for us.
15:26 I was thinking such a Sharon, you know, I
15:31 You know, this is kind of become just normal. Like for 10 years. We we did this work where I was the case manager or one of my staff was a case manager and you provided care. But I'm curious, what was going, what you thought? The first time I brought our first clients to your house and we are home. And I remember clearly that I had two women that we had decided, we would really be able to embrace the sisters and living there. And so we had agreed to bring them to your home. And so they had been staying at a domestic violence shelter for six weeks that was their time limit. And again, it was, it was fine. They spoke Spanish. So they were communicating fine. But that was the largest at the time, the law in California, if it was really chaotic and there's a lot of activity. And, and so, it was a lot different than the sisters of st. Joseph home because I would not consider.
16:31 Your house, your home chaotic, or busy. So I was a little bit worried about how they were going to interact with with their new environment because they started placing and the sisters of st. Joseph is so peaceful in and, and just so calm Spirit there. So I I just remember, they had been a shelter and they had come with nothing literally the clothes on their back so they could have hoarded a lot of donated items. So we were in my car and we were packed. I just remember them having boxes on the seat and on their on their laps. And we were kind of really embracing the moment just chatting and they had had tears when they left the DV shelter. And I'm like, oh my goodness. Am I making the right decision? Cuz they had it wasn't a bad situation for them. And I was like, oh my gosh is this wrong? And we got in the car and I just was like ladies.
17:31 First clients are going to stay with the sisters of st. Joseph. So you have to promise me that you will. Let me know if there is any problems. You have to promise me. If you're not feeling comfortable and I made them promise and they said that they would. But they would tell me if if they were having a hard time in your home in cuz I was worried, they had gone from here and they're going to end up in peace. And so we got to your home and I just remember walking in the door and I had these two ladies with their badge and we walked in the door and you and two of your sister if your colleagues were there to greet us.
18:18 Because we walked in the back room and we felt unconditional love and we all started crying and I knew at that moment. I didn't say I couldn't, said it wasn't going to be without challenges. But I knew that those women we're going to strive under your chair because of unconditional love that saw we needed info from that moment on. I never asked them.
18:45 If there's any problems cuz I knew there wasn't and they never complain to me. They completely Embrace being a part of the sisters of st. Joseph of orange. And so I just want to thank you for being a place of unconditional love.
19:05 What were you thinking when we walked in that door? When I first saw them? I think my heart was just
19:14 Like you said, it was just filled with compassion for them. And because we knew a little bit about their stories, all we wanted to do was love them and actually to give them their dignity back. That's what we strived for. And
19:33 You know, we talked back and forth. We were discussing, should we give them private rooms? Cuz you know, in in the western culture, everybody has their own bedroom, or should we put them together and maybe we have a long debate over this? And in the end we decided to put them together and it we realized it was the best thing that we could have done because they needed each other because they were afraid your they were in a different time and they didn't know it was going to be asked of them. And I remember, you know, we were thinking about what would be the test? How would we know that they were comfortable with us? And I remember in the beginning, when we knock on the door. We didn't realize that a knock on the door, was they were suffering from. You know, we were all learning and there was suffering from post-traumatic stress syndrome. And what we didn't realize that the knock on the door, to invite them to dinner, actually was interpreted for them that they were going to be taken out, and taken away, and have to do favors for somebody.
20:33 We didn't realize that at the time and I remember gradually, it took probably about 6, to 8 weeks, then knock on the door, or the door, would open chill. So a little bit so that the pupil of the eye could compare out and gradually over time. The door was finally left open. And when the door was finally left open, we realize that they felt at home in that they felt safe.
20:57 The other thing, I remember, even with the first two, we weren't sure about their names. And what we discovered was that for some of these women, the names that we were told was actually not their birth names. They had been given by their traffickers. And I remember for one of them when we asked her her name and she said her name,
21:23 It was the Anglo name and I said, no, not that name. I want to know what your mother calls you and when she said she very quietly stated her name and so we all responded. Also your name is and she's I'll never forget this. She said she sat straight up in her chair, and she said, my name is and I remember the cheers that just slow down her face because she hadn't been able to use her name for over a year. And it just took us all back because we realize how little we knew about what these women had gone through.
22:02 So giving them back their name was a way of giving them back their dignity.
22:12 I know that you actually called her moon. I want you got a nickname for her when she felt comfortable in and I'll tell a story about her and then I'd love to hear some of the things you've learned from from Moon, because she was really important person in both of our Lives. Cuz she was such a strong woman what she got her boyfriend.
22:35 We were actually was almost the end. She'd been there several years, and we were now starting to talk about what her next up for, she had learned English. She had gotten her immigration documents and she was working and she would let you know. She was just doing really well. And so we were trying to figure out her next steps. And so we started, you know, we were starting the plan and she's like, Sherry, I have to get out of here. Like, I'm afraid I'm going to become a Catholic and we just chuckled because she's a, she's a very strong through this, then she wasn't going to become Catholic. But when we realised afterwards that she just felt so comfortable with the sisters that she felt like she was one of them and I was like, oh, that's so great. But I loved and I just tried that was so funny. And in reality you and the sisters that lived in her or in an integrated with them at the home base.
23:35 You never, you never pushed your face on them. You were just faithful women. And they saw your example of, of your face. And, and if they were catholic, they embraced it more. And if they were catholic, they were able to embrace the, the religion that they, that they knew from person. And I thought that was wonderful because I'm not going to lie at the beginning, is we don't understand how wonderful sisters women religious war and how, you know, willing you are to engage with other faces, such a compassionate way until we work on. If you know where they were going to feel obligated to be Catholic or go to the Catholic church, but they weren't because you helped them embrace the face that they that they came from and what they wanted to believe it until I I just wanted to let you know, that that was also some that was super important and something that I think now and then
24:35 Twenty years later. We all know that I'm in religious, who work in the anti-trafficking space are just truly, hopefully confident and socially aware and able to handle the different nuances of the anti-trafficking space light shape, and I think you were just a good example of what that could look like, and I'm so far from Moon. I was just tickled that. She felt so comfortable with you, but she was worried. She wouldn't be Catholic. There were many things. I think probably she gave us a clearer picture of what the women went through when they were placed in these environments. I remember when they were walking into her room, and she just had a total meltdown. And I remember she slammed her hand on the bed, and she said, you give me free food. You give me freak.
25:35 Clothes and their new. You give me a bed to sleep on and I know work. I need work. And I looked at her and I was like, praying really hard at this moment. Trying to figure out how I was going to respond to her. I said, you know, Moon my job. My work is provide you a safe place to live.
25:56 Your work is to learn English. Well, then what happened was? She started studying and I was told that she was staying up till the wee hours of the morning, learning English. And then she would get up very early in the morning to learn English, to do her study and what we realized when I had a conversation with her that she needed her sleep. She said
26:21 I'll just say this in the proper English. She said, if I don't learn English fast enough, you will throw me out. They said no moon. We won't throw you out, you will, you will be able to stay here, but we need to also to sleep. So, there was trauma around. Not if they didn't live up to the standard that they thought everybody expected of them. Then there was a fear that they would be thrown out and they didn't know where they were. I think that was another thing. She taught us as some of the others to, because in terms of location, they don't they don't know, Southern Orange County or Southern California, so they didn't know where they were in relationships, were the perpetrators were and so even things like, taking the bus was horribly traumatic on some of them because they were always concerned that the perpetrators would find them on the bus or that they would get lost. And then how would they notify us that they were lost and I'm a rat.
27:21 I believe you gave them cell phones so that they can contact us. Yeah, that was the early days of cell phones. I think you're reminding me that one of the other things that you provided that I couldn't provide as a social service agency was stipend to send home, cuz I remember Moon had a part of Labor trafficking scheme. Is that she had taken out a large debt to pay for a recruiter to bring her and also, she actually paid to get married fraudulently. And so she has a very large debt. That was being in. There was pressure for her to pay for make payment and her family was under a lot of stress because they were still on the country where her perpetrator of family, where the debt was supposed to be collected and ends, but she was it was very stressful for her and other others of the clients that stay with you as well in
28:21 Can you explain kind of how you helped Rectify that what we did was we worked out something to where they would be learning job skills. And at the same time, we would give them a stipend comprable to, what our employees would receive. And then, that way, they were able to save the money and be able to send it home, unfortunately, and moon Circumstance. The person who got her that loan was killed because the income wasn't or the payback on the loan wasn't coming in fast enough. So we realize how critical it was that they'd be involved in some sort of work so that they can repay these loans. It was quite serious actually. And it's only look at where they might be able to get a job later after they left us. So we try to give them experience in housekeeping, cleaning dishes.
29:21 Things like that. Making bads laundry.
29:26 Yeah, they volunteered with some of your Elder sisters as well. So, you know, just to help learn to take care of people and it took me awhile. You didn't even tell me you were doing that. I like, I didn't even know that you were trying to figure help them send money home because if you ask any survivors of trafficking who receive services in the United States, with all of our amazing program, the one thing I'll say is, you know, you can give me, you can give me all the things. I need to live comfortably here in the United States, but I have to send money home. Most of them have kids or family that they're responsible for in the reason why they came took the risk to come to the u.s. In the first place is because they never really believed that they were going to be able to help their family. So having that stripped away from them, is just terrible. And so I love that. You had figured out a way for them to be able to receive some stipend, while they were working on their immigration.
30:26 So that they could still you don't help pay their dad or take care of their families. And that was just super that was super creative and I felt that you had within the organization. So that was just really an interesting story place that I found you being helpful. This was, I think true for some of the survivors when they were finally able to call home and let them know that they were in a safe place now cuz perhaps they hadn't hurt family members had not heard from them in a while. What we learned what became very difficult was What story. Do they tell? Because they were ashamed of what had happened to them. And if they told them actually, what happened to them, they risk the possibility that the family would reject them.
31:27 If they told them now, the true story, then the question to be then why aren't you sending money home? And because every in a federal program where there was no resources, then the family thought they were saving their money and becoming rich in America, not realizing how expensive it is to live here in Southern California. So really created a huge dilemma for them and that's why we tried to problem. So what could we do to help them with this and to address the problem?
32:03 You definitely did just using Moon as an example. If you know, I I I
32:10 I know that some of the sisters than that. We're big part of her life. When she lived with, you still keep in touch with her, which I think is an amazing gift. Like this is maybe eight or nine years after she left the program in and again just a testament to family and unconditional love. And and you know, I recently interacted with her and she's doing great like she, she is actually a very independent and she is able to help her family. I saw a picture with her and her niece recently and she's just was glowing able to be part of her family again. And, you know, I just think of all the women that came through your home that are now like independent and able to raise their families and take care of themselves in. And it was because they had that stable foundation. For those couple years were, they didn't have to worry about anything except for you? No moving forward in and becoming the person that they want to be in.
33:10 Jesus, really an amazing example of how all of the time and effort you put into this home and creating a safe place is still, it's still receive benefits because she still, you know, is it's communicating with your sisters. And she's an amazing woman that while we were working with her. She was having a hard time finding her voice. But by the time she left, she she has found it. And I just think that the, the other thing about, you know, the sisters of st. Joseph taking such an interest in these women, is that, you know, even after they graduated from that to your program, Shuffle of them, you were critical in, helping them reunify with their families. And one of the parts of the trafficking victims protection act is that if you get a Cheesy side, which is a trafficking Visa, you're able to reunite with your family, your immediate family. And so that two of the women that lived
34:10 With you, you actually help them either you let them stay in one of your homes while they brought their families over. So they could learn to adjust to each other or you help them get into another sister women religious program so that they could have a safe place too. So, just kind of get to know their kids. Again in one of those families, one of those kids, and a husband that you're your colleagues just embraced made sure they had every single thing they needed. So that, that family could, you know, kind of settled into life in America, they just driving now. So that's another thing is think about. You didn't just do the two years. You actually figure it out with me. They had after and met those name is, it was amazing. I was talking, I was talking to my mom about it about the other day and she just remembers a welcome home party that we had it for one of our, one of our clients that
35:10 You helped that she brought three of her children up in and she was so proud of her house and proud to fix us a meal and my mom was there and we just have a celebration of her making it through and thriving and so and that was that was that one of the women religious homes that you guys owned and I just know what a gift. You have his gift that kept on giving. Yeah, you know, I think that brings up a good point. We just saying about how strong this person was. I think all of them were strong before they came to the United States and they were all entrepreneurs wherever they were, they worked hard. However, they didn't have enough money to help meet the needs of the family. And I think the sadness for us that we observed was how broken. Some, at least one that I can remember how broken they were and how long it took them to be able to get their voices back and to feel confident within themselves.
36:07 Is this one of the tragedies of human trafficking does? Sometimes, I think people think that
36:16 I don't know what they think in terms of how people are when they are back at home. But all I know is from all these women, they gave testimony to how hard they worked when they are in their country of origin. And I see. I see that we just have a few more minutes left and I'm wondering if there's something that you want to say. I'm more curious about how you thought this one hormone that switching to st. Joseph's of orange created for the clients that I was serving in Orange County, California. How did how do you think it kind of helped shape the
36:54 The chocolate women religious are now regularly helping care for traffic victims throughout the United States. Like what what do you have? Just one, one, a group of women that chose to take care of of the survivors that were in Orange County.
37:15 Well, I would say that we became experts in providing services and we had we know the difference between what emergency housing would look like and what long-term housing would look like. So we were able to speak to both of those sand people. Women religious would come to our home and look at what we had done and then ask us questions and we were able to share with them. The specific needs that this particular population would need, and this is what they would need to assess in terms of. Could they provide the services that they needed? And would they be open and willing to providing long-term care? Because really, this is what they needed, was long-term care and not to be up there from when agency to another agency or shelter.
38:03 And also the other thing that we did we became very active and educating the public both here in Orange, County or hospitals. And also nationally, we became part of the education circuit and then would speak to groups of women religious across the country. I am in across the country about what we had learned and what we would recommend for them going forward. And what they needed to look at it as well.
38:30 Yeah, that's cool. I'm just so
38:36 I think the anti-trafficking movement considers women religious all over the country has bestowed natural part of our community in and I'm just so grateful grateful that I was there at the beginning when we were all trying to figure out what we were doing and you can you access to the st. Joseph? Ave. Warren, just came right along side of us and we all learn together and we were here now. And, you know, I was reflecting on my 18 years of being in the anti-trafficking space. And, you know, this is one of those moments that or one of the. Of time where I learned the most. But also started building my main philosophy of how I approach anti-trafficking work. And my theory is that it only takes one significant connection for someone to be able to keep going in to turn her life around and to have the confidence to succeed and and the sisters of st. Joseph of orange and
39:36 Was a perfect example of investing in of being that one person that they could trust and that's all they needed to rebuild their lives. So he kind of started my philosophy and I kind of worked on it over the last 18 years and it's still one of my bedrocks, is people ask me what they can do to help in the anti-trafficking him space, and be that one person for victims. Who get involved in your community and figure out where you can still contribute to the growth of a Survivor. And just be there. One person and I think you were there you were moved one person or there's probably about 12 of you just say impact that we can have on someone's life just by his were willing to engage them in and be present and accept them for who they are and offer them. What you can?
40:36 In order for them to grow. And and that was a perfect example, and I'm just, you know, now that I'm at the federal government. I used our work together for those years of is the part of my guide is I'm working with interagency groups that the federal government or some spending ngos and always remembering how we took an idea and made it something sustainable. And I I know that you actually even once the sisters of st. Joseph's of orange closed down the home that you ran. I know that you made sure that it continued on and into another NGO. And so, the works even going on. Even now, you know, we were going to be bringing this to a close in a few minutes. And what I want to say is relationships are very important. I think the reason why this collaborative worked with you and the commodious family in the other NGO that you worked with is that we
41:36 We spent time to helping the relationship and I think so often times in the western culture. We're all about the business first and then we develop the relationships. I just think it was a huge learning in terms of the importance of relationship first. And then we can work out the business piece of it. But if we have a good understanding of one another, and what we can offer for the, what we can offer, the traffic Survivor, then we can, we can kind of sort that all through and and meet that. I just want to thank you very much for inviting us to share in this ministry as we called it on to survivors. I just asked God to bless you and your ministry. Now is she continued to work with survivors and refugees and all into the future.
42:29 And I want to thank you for being somebody that I still completely enjoy interacting with. This is been fun to reconnect and reminisce over years past and that was a very long time ago that we started. I was like 18 years ago and I still feel like we're still colleagues. Yes, I do too. It's been. Yeah, so this was a great time down there Elaine, but also just a reminder of what would call good friends. We are going to be my friend sister, Sharon. Thank you for being mine and God bless you.