Shirley Crawford and Jacquinlan Quinlan

[00:03] SHIRLEY CRAWFORD: My name is Shirley Crawford. I am 54 years old. The date is September 17, 2024. I am in the library of Virginia in Richmond, Virginia, and I'm here with Jackie, my one small step conversation partner.

[00:18] JACKIE QUINLAN: My name is Jackie Quinlan. I am 43 years old. The date is September 17, 2024. I'm also in the library of Virginia in Richmond, Virginia. I'm here with Shirley, my one small step conversation partner.

[00:34] SHIRLEY CRAWFORD: Okay, in Jackie's information, Jackie is 43 year old woman raising a teenage daughter. She's never been married, but recently met her forever person. She loves to travel and experience all that they can. She grew up in a low income interracial family and has one brother who has disabilities. Her background drives her passion and efforts toward diversity, equity, and inclusion in both her personal life and through the organization, organizations that she is a part of.

[01:04] JACKIE QUINLAN: And Shirley's bio. She is the fifth of six aunts. Great aunt and family is very important to me. She loves to travel and experience other cultures. She's never been married, never engaged. Sorry, never been married, but very engaged in my community, first of in my family to go to college.

[01:29] SHIRLEY CRAWFORD: Okay, so we start off with our first question. So, Jackie, why did you want to participate in one small step?

[01:39] JACKIE QUINLAN: I like talking to people. I like meeting new people. So I think it just seemed like a great opportunity to get to meet someone else. I love my time in LMR, so specifically knowing that I would be meeting another person that went through LMR was probably the biggest draw for me. And what about you? Why did you want to participate?

[01:57] SHIRLEY CRAWFORD: I think it's really important in general, because there's so much friction in our community nationally, and so we don't tend to talk to each other anymore. We talk at each other. And so any opportunity to be able to have an intelligent conversation, even with conflicting beliefs or et cetera, I thought was worth having.

[02:19] JACKIE QUINLAN: Awesome. Yeah, I would agree with that. Tell me about your life growing up.

[02:25] SHIRLEY CRAWFORD: I am a native Richmonder, which they seem to be far and few between these days. I am one of six, so grew up, low income, public assistance, the whole nine, very heavy in my faith, and I grew up in what was then an entirely african american community, except where there was one gentleman on the far end of the road who was a german immigrant. And so that experience for me was amazing because it gave me an opportunity to see the teachers were there, the police officers. The gentleman next to me owned gas stations. And so any profession you could think of, there's a doctor there. So it was all there. So even though technically low income. We were all there together. Like, my neighbors could spank me. They never had to, but they could. I mean, it was a real community, and it's something that we just don't seem to have anymore.

[03:21] JACKIE QUINLAN: Gotcha. I do have a follow up question. I'm also born and raised in Richmond, so I'm curious if you don't mind sharing, like, which neighborhood, specifically, which.

[03:28] SHIRLEY CRAWFORD: Highland Park.

[03:29] JACKIE QUINLAN: Highland park.

[03:30] SHIRLEY CRAWFORD: All day. Highland park. I'm a northside baby, and so. And I actually moved back there because so many of us are moving away. I moved back into the home that I grew up in. So, yeah, Highland park. But I was a part of the results of civil unrest, and so I was bussed across town. I was like one of the. When they had white flight in the schools here, it's because we were coming. And so, like, we were bused to Mary Mumford at the crack of dawn every day. And all the kids who used to go there left and went to private school. And so it was really just a bunch of black kids and a few others, I guess, who were also of low income, who were there as well. And so. But for high school, which I think is what you ask, I went to merchant community, so all of my schools have been experiments. So, buster, Mary Mumford Henderson was, you know, the. It was a concept school, and so it was totally different. All the classrooms were open. Went there, then went to community, another project that was created by Miss Dabney and a philanthropist in the area. So it was semi public, semi private school for gifted and talented minority students. So that was that background. Okay, but you were supposed to be answering now.

[04:48] JACKIE QUINLAN: Yeah, so, as I said, I was born and raised in Richmond as well. I like to tell people, I'm like, I was born at Chippenham Hospital. It doesn't get much more like you were born here if you were born in Chippenham Hospital, or MCV, which is where my brother was born.

[04:59] SHIRLEY CRAWFORD: Yeah, that's it.

[05:00] JACKIE QUINLAN: But lived sort of bounced around when I was younger. I grew up very poor as well, and lived in Richmond for a little bit before I was really able to remember. But then my family, my mom and my dad and I settled down in the, like, Middlesex area.

[05:20] SHIRLEY CRAWFORD: Okay.

[05:21] JACKIE QUINLAN: So we lived in at least one trailer park there. I think we might have bounced around a little bit there as well. My parents separated when I was probably five or six. My father has schizophrenia. And so that started to surface. They were 18 when they had me. I think that was surfacing as I was born. And, you know, my mom was trying to deal with living with him and all that came with that. So we ended up moving to Powhatan. We lived with my grandparents in Powhatan for first and second grade. During that time, my mom met my stepdad, who she ended up marrying eventually. So we moved to Chesterfield to live with him when I was in third grade, and I basically stayed in Chesterfield. They're no longer married, but was there from third grade on, lived with him, my stepfather, who basically raised me. That was a little interesting just because it was a small, little sub community within Chesterfield that was owned by his family. So his family had owned the property and distributed parts of the land to their kids. And so it was a very small little community. My stepdad was a black man, and so I was surrounded by all these black aunts and uncles and cousins, and I was this little white girl, like, you know, in the middle of it all. And that really, I think, impacted the rest of my life in terms of how I view the world, but also just the injustices of the world and even just how we were treated. I mean, it was just, people were disgusted by the fact that our family was interracial. That was back in the mid eighties in Chesterfield. And so it just really, like, from an early age, I was like, why is this, like, so hard? Like, why has it got to be like this? So, yeah, I graduated from Manchester High School first in my family to go to college. I went to VCU first. I wanted to do pre med, worked at the Massey Cancer center for my work study, and realized I was not built for the medical world. I just got too close to the patients, and it was just too hard for me. So switched my major, went to Radford University, graduated from Radford with a degree in psychology, lived up there for a little bit, and then moved back to Richmond in 2006. And I've been here ever since because.

[07:52] SHIRLEY CRAWFORD: There'S no place like home.

[07:53] JACKIE QUINLAN: Yeah, yeah. I was always. I used to talk about Richmond so much when I was up there. I know people got tired of it because I was just such a sense of pride about being from Richmond. And I know they probably were like, okay, enough about Richmond. Anyway, that's my brief, my overview of my background.

[08:08] SHIRLEY CRAWFORD: Okay, but you said a lot in there. There was a lot packed in there, and so. But I think the thing that I'm most curious about that I. How impacted were you by the schizophrenia with your dad?

[08:24] JACKIE QUINLAN: Well, it's still a part of my life to this day. He lives in South Dakota, was able to buy a house out there. He's been on disability his entire life. And so he's bounced around across the US quite a bit. But for the last year and a half, he's been. He was in jail for a little while and then he's sort of being cared for by the human services department in South Dakota and is about to be released within the next month. Back to home. And so any day now, I'm waiting for the call. I'd have to drop everything and go to South Dakota and help him transition from where he's been for the last year and a half and reestablished back in his home. And I guess I was impacted when he was very abusive to my mom. So I'm at a young age, some memories of witnessing some of that.

[09:17] SHIRLEY CRAWFORD: But.

[09:18] JACKIE QUINLAN: Then just basically he just wasn't a part of my life through like, middle school, high school. And so all the feelings of, like, a teenage girl feeling like, you know, my dad's not around. He's actually been much more involved with my daughter's life. Like, our relationship, I think, has improved over the years and he really has been as good of a grandfather as you could expect, dealing with what he deals with. So. Yeah, and I think it helps me. He's a very brilliant man. He even wrote a book, and that book, which I. He never published it, but he did bind it and figured out how to do all that on his own. It is the most interesting, like, look into the brain of a person with schizophrenia. I mean, it does not make sense otherwise, but if you could read it just as a case study of what it means to be schizophrenic, I think it's pretty interesting. So I think overall, my experience with him has helped me to better understand people that are dealing with mental illness. Do you have any experiences that. I mean, does that strike a chord with you in some way? Is there, do you have family members or any experience like that?

[10:36] SHIRLEY CRAWFORD: It's not so much that it's family. I guess I've always been fascinated. So initially when I went to school, I was going to be a psychology major. I mean, I wanted to do business psychology, mind you, let's not go too far. But I've always been fascinated by people and just how we think and how we process, how you can talk to, you can have two people, same room, same experience, and two different lenses on it. And so to add to that PTSD or other stress or other mental challenges or even depression, there's so much that impacts how we see the world. So I think it's always really important to step back and not always judge what the person is saying, try to put it situationally. So when you said that, it's just something I've also. I've not dealt with. So because I always think of. I'll put it this way, the world always poses schizophrenia like Jekyll and Hyde, as opposed to understanding that there are spectrums when it comes to everything. And I just wonder in particular, like, of all the things in my life that were not the best, I always knew my father loved me. Like, that has been the foundation for me, for everything. All of my confidence literally comes from the fact that I knew my dad loved me without a shadow of a doubt, would lay down his life for me. And I always wondered what it's like when there is any kind of friction in that relationship. And you also said that they were both very young. So I'm even curious to know, like, where did you eventually find that support? Or are you still searching for it?

[12:25] JACKIE QUINLAN: Right. Well, my mom. So when you were saying, like, your dad is, like, where your strength is, and you know that it's unwavering love and support, that's my mom. I mean, she was young. Yes, she was 18, but she figured it out and did the same thing with my brother. I have a brother who's about eight years younger than me. She's a fantastic. I mean, she has been just our backbone. Her love is never ending. So I would say my mom is that one strength. And then my dad's family was really great to me. So his parents, I think, really stepped in where he couldn't and made sure that I had experiences. Any of the travel that I did growing up was because of them. Like, they would get me out. And we went to California and Canada, and, you know, those were things that I wouldn't have had the opportunity to do otherwise. And I don't think I realized at the time. I just thought it was awesome we were going on a trip, but, like, they were making sure that I was experiencing the world, you know, and that I think they knew that I had a lot of promise academically, but, you know, I was in a situation where that could have been limited if, you know, I didn't have that support from them, financial and otherwise. I mean, they definitely paid for me to be able to go to college, and that wouldn't have been possible otherwise. And so, yeah, I think I definitely had others who stepped up to the plate to make it happen, no doubt. But my mom really, at the end of the day, with my mom in terms of the love and the support, that's the person I call, you know, for anything.

[13:57] SHIRLEY CRAWFORD: So moms have been holding it down for a long time.

[14:02] JACKIE QUINLAN: I am curious. We've been talking a lot about history, but I, with us both being an LMR, and you shared that you were interested in psychology, but where did you land? What are you doing today?

[14:13] SHIRLEY CRAWFORD: Oh, yeah, we dropped the psychology part of it. We kept the business.

[14:16] JACKIE QUINLAN: Okay.

[14:17] SHIRLEY CRAWFORD: Yes, because I wanted to do IO psychology. Industrial organizational psychology is what I was initially interested in. And here in Richmond, one of the companies that was on the forefront was life of Virginia, which wasn't. I'm dating myself. So they were an insurance company, and they were, like, nationally known for how they had applied IO psychology to their business. They were eventually bought out before I could go work for them, they were bought out by Ge. So it's now Genworth. And so ge bought them out. It became Ge financial, and I went to work for them because I was like, I'm determined I'm gonna work someplace that has life in Virginia. So, yeah, that was how that path began. But now I do small business consulting, which is my heart and my love. And the biggest reason that I do it is because, unfortunately, there are not as many opportunities, especially for minorities, but lower income in particular, like. Cause even when you're talking about the trailer park, like, that registers in my mind, because a lot of people don't get to transition from that. And the only way they're going to is that there has to be something either external or there has to be an internal opportunity, and most of those, the easiest way to find income, to find a way up and out. A lot of our little kids think it's sports, and that can happen, but it's far fetched. But starting your own business is an immediate way. And so a lot of these people have, like, grandma's cookie recipe, or they sew or they clean houses, and they make it a business, and it's their way out. And so it's my pleasure to help those individuals who want to have an economic impact upon their families and not have to be on welfare, which, you know, I think we both have experienced that. I'm assuming that on your part, from what you said, I'm assuming, yes, we do. So, having done the public assistance thing, I don't want that for people because you're treated kind of subhumanly, and so the humanity is just lost in the process. And so the way that I think of the story, and I'm not going to draw it on. But there was a young lady who was at social services or one of these offices, not here in Richmond, thank God, but she was there waiting with her son. She's just waiting for services. And so the waiting room is full because people without money are treated like cattle. And so all she's doing is waiting. She gets tired of standing, so she sits on the floor and they come over and basically accost her. And it's recorded. I mean, not to say it's unfortunate, and this day and age, because things are recorded, we're actually getting some justice to happen. It's unfortunate that it happened, but it's recorded. And so they are trying to pull her child away from her and trying to. All she is doing is sitting on the floor, waiting in a crowded waiting room. And so it's just the total, it just goes beyond my understanding how we can treat people so poorly. But that's what happens when you don't have wealth, you don't have influence, you don't have someone who can advocate for you. And so every time I think about that situation, I'm like, I'm going to do my best to make sure that people like her, people like me, never have to be in a situation that they have the economic resources, that they don't have to go to these offices and participate. And admittedly, they came back later after the videos were shown and apologized. But this is the kind of stuff that happens all the time. And so the consulting for me is to make sure that people really have the money they need to be able to not just survive, but leave a legacy.

[18:02] JACKIE QUINLAN: That's powerful work that you're doing. That's awesome.

[18:05] SHIRLEY CRAWFORD: I thoroughly enjoy it. So what do you do?

[18:08] JACKIE QUINLAN: I actually work at sports backers, so I have been there for ten years now as the director of youth programs. And so as you were mentioning, Mary Munford and Henderson, I'm like, yep, yep. Know all those. Our club at Henderson just kicked off yesterday. So very familiar with that story. School, the open concept school, which is so bizarre to me. Whenever I'm in Henderson, I'm like, this is just so different.

[18:29] SHIRLEY CRAWFORD: They've closed up some of the walls now, but that's not the point. Continue.

[18:33] JACKIE QUINLAN: Well, it wasn't like they hadn't started to close them. Well, at least from what I saw when we started there about ten years ago, I mean, it was still very different than any other school in the city. Can you say a bit more about what an open concept? I'll let you. You went there. So.

[18:51] SHIRLEY CRAWFORD: So Thomas H. Henderson Middle School was a project school. I'm trying to think who created the program. I do not recall. And the way that it's set up is that you have four teachers all together in basically a square. Right. They're all in this square. And there are walls on the side, but in the center it's open. So you can see the other classrooms from your classroom. So they're teaching and it's basically a big room. And you can see all the teachers teaching at the same time. And it was all, in theory about community. And then what happened is instead of having to get up and go down the hallway, you just went to your next class in the next section. And so eventually they stopped doing it as much because it was getting disruptive and everything else. But initially it worked out very well. And then it was alpha, beta, gamma, delta are the areas that you're in. Like, beta was for advanced students. And so. But that was. That was the general concept. So open room is what we're talking about. We talk about open concept. Yeah.

[19:53] JACKIE QUINLAN: And that. That is different than what I saw when I went in even ten years ago. It's just at least what I've seen is more of like. It's almost like these circular partitions for classrooms. And so the noise from the hallway can go into the classroom and then vice versa. At least is what I've noticed in the last ten years or so there. Yeah. So I started out working in mental health. So worked for. Really? Yes. Yes. So. Which is. QMHP is qualified mental health professional. In case that acronym is breaking down. That acronym is helpful. So I worked for a company up in. I started out after college living in Radford for a little while and worked for goodwill Industries of the valley at the time for a couple of years as a case manager for people with disabilities in their sheltered employment center. Left from there to work in a school system. My heart was always with the kids. So I loved working with people with disabilities. That was really rewarding. And I learned a lot, but I really wanted to be with the kids. So I got a job at Dublin Middle School with doing therapeutic day treatment. When I moved to Richmond in 2006, I got a job with a organization called the New YCAP, which stand for, stood for youth challenge advised and positively promoted. And I was there for eight years. Started as a case manager, moved up to site supervisor at Oak Grove Belle Meade on Richmond Southside. Became area manager of our south side sites, including Hopewell and some Chesterfield locations, and then eventually became regional director. And so was sort of leading the day treatment operations at YCAP. And during that time, I was coaching a run club at Oak River Belmead. Even though I wasn't there on a daily basis anymore. I had been there for years that my heart was really in. In that community and with those kids that I had worked with for years. And so I would go back and coach the run club with the PE teacher, and then eventually got introduced to sports packers. There was a program called Kids Run RVA. They had heard about what we were doing at Oak Grove and wanted to help support and get kids out to their races, and I just got more and more involved. I personally am a runner, and so I was on marathon training team with sports backers, and so it was just getting more and more plugged in as a volunteer, and a position became available to do. I think the title was community engagement specialist, and it was to help lead the expansion of their outreach work through kids Run RVA and a fitness warrior program. And so I got the job, and that was in 2014, and I've been there ever since. So, yeah, that's what I do professionally.

[22:46] SHIRLEY CRAWFORD: Well, I will say thank you. I have done. I started off with the five k. I did the ten k. Okay. And then, which I don't run anymore at all, but I volunteer every blue moon. And then because of all that, I did the half marathon in Honolulu.

[23:02] JACKIE QUINLAN: Oh, wow.

[23:03] SHIRLEY CRAWFORD: A few years ago, and now I don't plan to run anywhere ever again. But it started with you all. It started with sports records, so I'll say thanks for that.

[23:12] JACKIE QUINLAN: I'm not running much these days either. I had a trail running accident a year and a half ago on North bank trail and landed an MCV for five days and had to have major surgery on my ankle. And so I can run. I have run a five k since then. I have recovered to the point that I can get out and run some miles, but not the half marathons, full marathons. And honestly, it does irritate it enough to where I'm just trying not to, really. I do more walking and strength training now. Yeah, I've had my fair share of injuries with running, and I think it's time to put it in the backseat a little bit.

[23:52] SHIRLEY CRAWFORD: Aw. Okay. Before I can see you're about to transition, but before you do, I'm just curious to know, with regard to running, you said marathon training team. Have you done a marathon?

[24:00] JACKIE QUINLAN: I've done five, yes.

[24:01] SHIRLEY CRAWFORD: God bless you. Have you done any internationally?

[24:04] JACKIE QUINLAN: I have not. No. I've done Philly Richmond a couple times. I did the Marine Corps marathon in DC. I did the Shamrock marathon out in Virginia Beach. I ran an ultra marathon, which was a only. That's on the trails.

[24:23] SHIRLEY CRAWFORD: I'm sorry.

[24:24] JACKIE QUINLAN: But no, not internationally.

[24:25] SHIRLEY CRAWFORD: I'm sorry. Fifty k. Fifty k. Yeah.

[24:28] JACKIE QUINLAN: I did that once just to say I had done it, like, more than a marathon. And that part's done, so I survived it.

[24:34] SHIRLEY CRAWFORD: Bless you. I watched the shamrock marathon of Virginia beach from my window. Yeah. That's my involvement there.

[24:42] JACKIE QUINLAN: It's a brutal course. It's not a ton of fun for the course, but they do such a good job with their post race party that, like, it keeps people coming back year after year to. It's a great party right on the beach after you're done.

[24:53] SHIRLEY CRAWFORD: Yeah, I'm not into hurting myself, so I'm just gonna pass. But it was fun while it lasted.

[25:00] JACKIE QUINLAN: I gotcha. It's pretty awesome. Not a lot of people have done five k and ten k. I think people. Sometimes people are like, oh, I haven't ever done a marathon. It's like, yeah, well, most people haven't. Like, the fact that you've done any events is awesome, so. Especially one in Honolulu. Like, that's so cool. I'd love to hear more about that.

[25:18] SHIRLEY CRAWFORD: It was bucket list. And so I knew that if I went there, I wouldn't quit. Like, I would have paid too much money to go and to register. And I was like, I have to set the goal so that I make sure I'm going to complete it. So I was like, I'm here. We're going to finish. But when it was over, no need to repeat it.

[25:35] JACKIE QUINLAN: You did it. You did it.

[25:36] SHIRLEY CRAWFORD: No need. No need to repeat it at all.

[25:37] JACKIE QUINLAN: So besides Honolulu, and I know you mentioned in your bio that you love to travel and you experience other cultures, so what are some of your favorite places you've been? Because that speaks to me, too.

[25:46] SHIRLEY CRAWFORD: Okay. So I will try not to go on forever because travel is my favorite thing. So I actually just got back on it. I just got back from a trip. So last week was New York, but that was business related. And then right before that, so I recently quit my job, which, you know, I say my job, but I started this, the women's business center, RVA with a partner. And so been doing it for six years. Amazing outcome. And so I've been. It's just been a big part of my heart. I love the impact that we've had, but it's time for me to move on, to take and to do some more things. So I wrapped up there. June 28. June 29 is my birthday, so I had a book signing party, and then the next week, I took my mom on a european excursion, because she had never, she's never been.

[26:35] JACKIE QUINLAN: I haven't either.

[26:35] SHIRLEY CRAWFORD: So, like, this is a hard working woman. I'm. I think I mentioned I'm the fifth of six kids. She has brought us through everything, and she doesn't have a lot of expectations of what she should receive. She will fight tooth and nail for us, but has very little expectation, like what she should be given. And so she casually mentioned, I don't know, last year, that. That she wanted, that she was like, she wouldn't mind going to Paris. And so, and I think it's because a friend of a family extension friend was in the Olympics, and so I think that general conversation was going on, so I think that's how it got in her head. So we smiled and said, okay, that's nice, and didn't say anything else. So then for her birthday, we gave her exactly what she asked for. And so I, being the entrepreneur, I don't have a traditional schedule. I can do these things, and I do a little travel agent stuff on the side, because I travel so much, I might as well get paid for it. So we took her. We went to Paris for a week. I went to a couple of olympic matches while we were there. Then from there, we went to Rome, Venice, Milan. Then from Milan, we went to Athens. Make sure I'm getting. All right. From Athens, we went to Piraeus, which is a port in Italy, and we went on a greek cruise of the greek isles. Then we went to Barcelona. Then from Barcelona, which I love, back to Paris, and we left. So we were there for three and a half weeks. And so, yeah, love to travel. It is. And I just feel like she has earned the right to have anything she wants. If she wants it, she should have it. And so my siblings all agreed, so we got together to make that happen. But my favorite place that I've ever been to, I love Paris. When I went, I wasn't, I didn't really want to go. It was an opportunity, so I took it. I'm all about that opportunity. I'll take it. But then I went, and I loved it, and so I do love Paris. Haiti probably has my heart. I have a nonprofit in Haiti, so I lived there for a year and a half, and I haven't been back since the pandemic, and I need to go soon, but. So, yeah, haiti is pretty big. I love South Africa. Amsterdam is great. I've done a lot of traveling.

[28:58] JACKIE QUINLAN: No kidding.

[28:59] SHIRLEY CRAWFORD: Because to me, that was. People measure success differently. For me, success is being able to do whatever my mother wants, whenever she wants it, and to be able to travel without thought. And so I'm not totally there yet, because what that means is if tomorrow I decided that I want to go to brazil, which I'm planning to do next year for my 55th, I shouldn't have to go. Oh, how do we pinch the pennies? How do we make it happen? Not totally there yet. I still budget make it all happen. I have to prioritize it. But to me, that's how I, you know, that's how success is measured for me. So I dare to ask, how do you measure success?

[29:38] JACKIE QUINLAN: How do I measure success? I don't think it would be through travel. Like, I think. I mean, I think that's a really cool concept. I love it, but I don't. And I love travel, but it's not through that. I think one of the ways I measure success is through. Now that I say this out loud, I'm like, is it even the right way to measure it? But really through my daughter, I mean, it's. As a mom, she's 16.

[30:09] SHIRLEY CRAWFORD: Oh, wow.

[30:10] JACKIE QUINLAN: And so we're just at that interesting phase of life where, like, she's starting to make decisions about what's going to happen in her future and, you know, being able to make sure that. I think mine is pretty typical, actually, if I want her life to have been better than mine was, and it has been so far, you know, in terms of what I can provide her with. And travel has been a part of that. As a young mom, I immediately was like, I want my child to have an annual vacation. That's just important to me. I remember talking to her dad about that, and I'm like, it doesn't have to be anything crazy. It could be just the beach down the road, but we're going to go on a vacation, we're going to stay somewhere, and she's going to have that experience. And we've done that. The travel has gotten. I think she was seven when we first went out of the country and she went to the Dominican Republic. She and I did a big deal as a single mom to, like, take your little seven year old out of the country. So I think making sure that she has, you know, a very comfortable life that she never has to worry about, you know, how she's. How she's going to be able to pay for college, like, having, you know, having done what I need to do to make sure that that's available for her, I don't think she's in a position where she'll be able to. I don't think she'll really benefit from financial aid, which is great. I mean, that's a great problem to have. Good problem to have. But, you know, being able to pay for that so that she's not in debt. I still, to this day, am paying off my graduate student loans.

[31:40] SHIRLEY CRAWFORD: Left the student loan.

[31:40] JACKIE QUINLAN: You know, I'm like, I can't wait for that forgiveness. I hit ten years with sports packers, so I'm like, it should be happening any day now because I'm on the nonprofit. Yeah, the nonprofit. And I. But anyway, that program is slow moving, and so it probably won't happen for another few months. But I'm still paying off my student loan debt from graduate school, and I don't want her to be in that position. And so I think to be able to get my daughter out into the world successfully debt free is a way that I measure success. And just generally, like, am I happy? Am I enjoying life? Like, those things are important to me, you know, making sure that I'm in a place where I'm comfortable and that things aren't as hard things have been. I actually sold my home two years ago and bought a condo. And so all of that was about, like, my quality of life, just not having to take care of a big house and take care of a lawn and all of that. So just sort of, like, peace of mind and happiness and comfort. All of those are ways that I measure, I guess, success, too.

[32:47] SHIRLEY CRAWFORD: I was thinking of something else, and then my old age kicked in. No, before you go, I just have to ask this. I have to ask because this is something that my friends and I always have conversations about. So eons ago, the Gates family, Melinda and her husband, the gates. There was this whole article about the fact that their kids were not going to inherit everything that they had, that there was a specific amount that they were setting aside for them because the idea was that they needed to work for it, although their working for it is far different than what we would consider working for it. And I always think about the fact that almost all parents say, I want my kids life to be easier than mine or better than mine, but aren't there things in your life, those difficulties that made you stronger and better? And so then how do you make it easier but not too easy?

[33:47] JACKIE QUINLAN: Yeah, it is a balance. She. Luckily, I have a child that I think has always had a little bit of an entrepreneurial sense to her. She's always wanted to have her own money. She started a little babysitting business when she was, I think, twelve. She got her as soon as she was able, I think she was twelve, got her certification for first aid, and the Red Cross was a babysitting certification and she was out there making her own money. Fast forward this past summer, she got her first real job at tropical smoothie. And so I think she knows that with college, I'm going to support you. I've got your college covered. Luckily, that was part of the deal of me selling my house. Like, I made money that could go straight into her college account to shore that up because I was never going to be able to save enough on my own. I had been saving, but it just wasn't ever going to be enough for four years. So like, I want the college to be covered, but she knows she's going to have to work to pay for her own. So I think there's a certainly a balance. I definitely worked for everything I have. I had support too, and so my grandparents helped support me through college and, but I always worked, I always had a job. And so I think she has grown up knowing that, like, it's not all going to be handed to her, that she's going to have to work and she's going to have to, you know, do her part. But I just don't want it to be where she's, I really, it's more about the debt, I think, than anything else. I just don't want her to be in debt after it all. But yeah, it is a balance. And I've even had conversations with friends who were like, why are you going through these? Like, it's pretty extreme to like, part of the reason for selling the house was to make things easier on me, but also to make the money I knew I could make at the time at the market so that I could have enough money for college. So I was starting to realize, I'm like, there's not that much time left. And at this rate, she's gonna have enough money for one or two years, not all four based on my savings. And so anyway, I've had conversations with friends who are like, why are you doing all that? If she wants to go to college, she'll have to figure it out. I'm like, well, for me, my value is that I would love to be able to provide that for her. And I don't know, I think everyone has different opinions on that, but that was something that was important to me to be able to provide her with that opportunity to go out and get the degree. And if she chooses not to get a degree, I'm okay with that too. Maybe even more. Okay. It's not like, get that money back. Get that money back.

[36:15] SHIRLEY CRAWFORD: You'll get a percentage of it instead of getting all of it if you don't go.

[36:19] JACKIE QUINLAN: But I just wanted her that opportunity. I didn't want her to have to worry about it. And if she wanted to go to college, I wanted that to be an option for her and for her not to have to figure out how to finance that. Cause it's just. It's insane how expensive it is at this point.

[36:31] SHIRLEY CRAWFORD: Indeed. Sweet.

[36:32] JACKIE QUINLAN: Yeah. To go into, you know, undergrad and think about coming out with, you know, being 80,000 in debt before you even start. Like, I just. I didn't want that for her. So I think that's beautiful. Okay. You mentioned Haiti. So you have a nonprofit in Haiti?

[36:48] SHIRLEY CRAWFORD: I do.

[36:50] JACKIE QUINLAN: I would love to know more about the nonprofit, and I would love to know your thoughts on how Haitians are being dragged through the mud right now politically.

[36:59] SHIRLEY CRAWFORD: All the dogs and cats piece.

[37:00] JACKIE QUINLAN: Yeah.

[37:01] SHIRLEY CRAWFORD: Which part? Because they get mistreated on a lot of corners?

[37:06] JACKIE QUINLAN: No, the one, the most recent or the biggest spotlight.

[37:10] SHIRLEY CRAWFORD: As if that is. Anyway. Yeah. Nonprofits called heart helping educate and provide us through technology. I moved to Haiti in two. I graduated. I moved to Haiti in 2006, lived there for a year and a half. And so I didn't know what I was going to do. I didn't know anybody there, but I'm a woman of faith. And so the way that it all transpired is that I was coming to the end of a degree here at VCU Virginia Commonwealth University, and I was asking God what I should be doing next. And so my friends and I had a 40 day fast, and so they had their reasons. And I was asking God about what's for the future. And so during the fast, I heard God's voice very clearly, and I kept hearing Haiti. And so I was just like, uh, okay, I'm american, so geography is not my thing. And I really had no. I didn't even really know where it was. I mean, it wasn't a part of my life. I was living my everyday, and I wasn't thinking about, you know, everyone else in that way. And so after that, I kept praying, and I was just like, okay, if this is really supposed to happen, God, that's on you. It's not on me. So I accepted okay. The acceptance came with a slightly longer story. I'm going to tell it efficiently. And so I prayed again, and I said, I know I heard it, but I don't know what that means. Like, I don't understand. If it's really you and not what I had for dinner last night, then I'm going to need you to show me a sign. And so the next day, there was a big bill, a gigantic billboard, and they said something about Haiti. And I was just like, okay, lord, maybe literal. It literally was. But I was like, uh, lord, maybe it was there all along, and I just didn't notice it, you know? I said, I need something else. I need another sign. I need something else. So I went to church that evening, and one of the assistant pastors was sharing, and he said, I was going to talk to you about something totally different. But he said, but God told me to talk to you all about Haiti. And I was like, okay, got it. Done. Done. You can't do anything else. And it's not like there was all this stuff going on. The only thing that I thought about Haiti was because that's when all the boats were coming over and they were sending them all back, and they were drowning in the water, because Haitians in general don't know how to swim. I never understood that. I was like, why are people drowning, like, swim? They don't. That's a whole other story that I learned when I was there. They're surrounded by water, and a lot of them are afraid of water or don't swim. It's just totally interesting. So I moved there. In between that, I had gone to France. Previously, I'd gone to Paris through VCU with another individual I'd met there. She reached out to me. I hadn't talked to her in forever. She reached out to me, and she was just like. I was just wondering, did you say something about Haiti? I hadn't told anybody. I hadn't shared it. I hadn't done anything else. And I was like, I hadn't. But anyway, she connected me with someone else. I went there and stayed with his family for the first six months, got a job at the American University of the Caribbean, and then moved out into the city amongst the people. And everyone was like, are you really doing this? Like, there's a compound where missionaries stay? And I was like, well, that's it. I need to be with them, not with you all. So that was how that all transpired. So I'm an honorary haitian. It's not in my blood. We're not blood relatives that I'm aware of, but it's a big part of my heart and my passion and how am I feeling about things that have transpired? Haiti has a very rich and amazing history, but the US has done them a disservice time and time again. And so at one point, they had a booming tourism. Like, if you think about the Bahamas, they'll tell you 80% of their income is tourism. The little islands of most of their money is tourism. During the time when we were trying to figure out where HIV came from, where aids came from, the US put out a report saying that it came from Haiti, only to later discover that there were two american women who came and brought it to the country, not the other way around. And so it totally ruined tourism for the country. And they never came back and apologized. They never came back and corrected it? None of the above. They quietly put out a little report. And so my heart is always there with them. I think they've just been done a disservice on so many levels, but they're a vibrant, rich community of people who take care of one another. So that is my love there. Part of my disillusionment at present is not just with the comments that former President Trump made, the lens that we have on a country that we have done wrong and not the other way around. And so right now, we've had coups, we've had problems with president. They have some violent things that happen in their history. By nature, they are the kind of people who riot and fight, and so they've been burning some things down. And I feel like they're going through enough without us adding it in. For those who are trying to do better, most of the money they receive in Haiti comes from Haitians who have moved to either the US or France. And so now for them to be under attack, I'm like, you're basically undermining the entire economy of a country. So not in love with the comments, but I will put them into the box of ignorance where they belong, and I'm just gonna move on from there.

[42:42] JACKIE QUINLAN: Gotcha.

[42:46] SHIRLEY CRAWFORD: Oh, that went, that went by.

[42:52] JACKIE QUINLAN: I am so intrigued by the, like, living abroad piece. I've never lived abroad. It's definitely something that I guess I would say it's on my bucket list in life. Just do it. Yeah, I mean, I gotta get my daughter settled first. And so that's part of it. It's just, you know, not wanting to leave her high and dry until she feels really comfortable. And I don't know, I think I. As I listen to your path and my path, I feel like mine is definitely a little more traditional in terms of, like, got this job and stayed there for eight years. Got this job and stayed there for ten years. And so I am the type that I'm not as much of a risk taker, you know? And I think that can be a disservice sometimes. I have a lot of drive and expertise and knowledge, and yet I'm, like, scared to make moves just because I've always got to make sure that, like, first and foremost, that the bills are paid and me and my girl are good. Right. But living abroad is something that I just think is. I wish I would have traveled abroad when I was in college. I didn't. I think I was always nervous to ask for support for things that were sort of optional. I think my grandparents would have done it for me and yet understood choir, show choir in college, went. I'm sorry, the jazz choir was then in college, went to Europe in high school, getting my years wrong. I sing in college, too, but in high school, they took a trip to Europe, and I didn't go. And there was only two students who didn't go, and I was one of them. And they even offered to make it half off. They were like, the coral boosters was gonna cover half of it, and I just would not ask my grandparents for that support. And I look back on it, I'm like, why didn't I ask? Like, they would have done it, and I would have had, you know, and I'm 43, and I've never been to Europe. Like, it's. That's. That's a big bucket list for me, is to get to Europe. So. So I'm definitely, like, intrigued by your travel experiences and specifically, like, just jumping to a country that you really didn't know a ton about and living there.

[44:57] SHIRLEY CRAWFORD: There's so much that I want to say to that, but I know we're coming soon in, so I will try to be succinct, and then we can talk after. So one of the biggest things to me is that, especially living in America, even before I ever left the country, I've always been, like, a BBC fan or international news, and the understanding that the lens that we have here is media driven, whether consciously or subconsciously, we all tune into these themes that everyone else tells us. And the moment you start looking at the lens of America, outside of America, you realize there are so many other things going on. So, like this past trip while we were away, everyone was talking about the election the election. The election. The election. The election. The election. I could keep saying, because that's how much they were saying, the election. And then when Kamala Harris decided to run, it was about, oh, Biden, Kamala, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But then I wasn't here. And so looking at this other globe, there was an entire crisis that was happening in Africa. There were. There were all these strikes that were happening in Europe. There were so many things that were happening that here we don't look at, we don't address, we don't think about. So to me, that's really the whole benefit of international exposure. So one of the things that I haven't done recently, but I used to do every year, was take a group of kids on a mission strip. And the number one reason for it was because they came out of America spoiled, even lower income, still spoiled, because we have so much. And they came back grateful. And so to me, that's the real benefit of having exposure to different cultures, different people, and realizing that America isn't the center of the world, no matter how we keep trying to pretend and make globes that make us look larger than we are. The truth of the matter is, we are a part of a global community. And so the more you travel, the more you experience, the better you are.

[46:59] JACKIE QUINLAN: What about traveling within the US? That's something I've done quite a bit of, and I value that maybe not just as much, because getting out of the country is a whole different experience. And you do get exposed to other cultures, but there's other cultures even within our own country. We're such a big, like, land mass wise, we're big. And so you can go to Colorado, and I. It's like, this is totally different than anything I've ever seen. I'm curious. There's equally as many places in the US that I still want to go to that I haven't gotten to yet.

[47:31] SHIRLEY CRAWFORD: And the thing you have to know is that the US is huge. We talk about France, we talk about the history. It's really tiny. You can plop down most of Europe inside of the United States. So when you talk about that diversity, we do have lots of it here. I think the thing that makes it different is that when you're here, there's one economy, there's one language, there's one majority language. Like, it's just that we have so many things in common. But just traveling here, like, one of my goals is to go to all 50 states. I have ten left to go.

[48:03] JACKIE QUINLAN: Okay.

[48:04] SHIRLEY CRAWFORD: And so if you go from, like, Appalachia, right. When people talk about poverty, they always show these pictures of these kids in Africa. But we have poverty right here. Like, we don't have to go far. Like, we're in Richmond. I can go across town. We don't recognize or know that the kid who was making all this effort to have these shoes might not have a meal. And so they're so reliant. Like, I know for me, growing up, like, school lunches, like, we relied on those meals in the summers. We had those summer programs. I don't know if you ever did any of those at, like, Hoskins Field and pine camp, like, the community center parks where they provided you with a meal. They had. You had breakfast and lunch and between all your activities. And so here we forget, because we have this vast disparity of, like, people who have a lot and people who have a little and. But still, like, when you talk about the diversity, it's. Here we have, we say melting pot, but we're not really, because it doesn't all blend in together. We have these pockets of culture. But the point is, within the United States, yes, there's lots to see. There's. I mean, I, one of my bragging points, I always tell people. Cause they're like, well, why do you live in Richmond? You can live anywhere. I'm like, in Richmond within 2 hours. I can have mountains, I can have valleys, I can have oceans, or I can have a large city. Mm hmm. Where else would I want to live?

[49:28] JACKIE QUINLAN: Gotcha. Do I go to the last question? Sure. I forgot that we were supposed to do that. Thank you for the reminder. All right, shirley, I think our time is about up, so I'll kick us off with this last question. What's something that you'll take away from this experience?

[49:48] SHIRLEY CRAWFORD: Although I am an introvert, no matter how it seems, I will take away from this experience that there is always a commonality. If you just take the time to search for the thread. Okay. And then I get to ask you. So, for you, what's something that you'll take away from this experience?

[50:08] JACKIE QUINLAN: Hopefully a new friend, because I honestly have loved talking to you, and I feel like we could have talked a lot more. I don't think we ever got to really any of these questions that are actually on the paper. Optional question, which tells me that obviously, like, conversation can flow with us, and there were definitely commonalities between us. And I think it's amazing how, I think maybe I take it for granted sometimes of how far I've come in life and to hear someone else share, like, your childhood and where you are today and being able to travel and do own businesses and help other people own businesses, that is amazing to me. And I want to surround myself with people that are good people that have overcome things. Right? That it wasn't all handed to. Like, that means a lot to me. So I hope I've come away with someone that I can be friends with and that we can get together and share our travel stories and talk some more. That's what I. I hope.