Shirley Griffin and A.E. Griffin

[00:11] SHIRLEY CLEMENTS GRIFFIN: My name is Shirley Clements Griffin. I am 54 years old. Today is Saturday, September 24, 2002, and we are located in Kalamazoo, Michigan, here with StoryCorps. And I am speaking with my wonderful husband, Anthony Griffin.

[00:30] ANTHONY GRIFFIN: Yes, hello. My name is Anthony Griffin. I also go by AE Griffin professionally. I'm 53 years old. And it is indeed Saturday, September 24, 2022, here in Kalamazoo, Michigan, with Storycorps. And I'm speaking with my lovely wife, Shirley Clements Griffin.

[00:47] SHIRLEY CLEMENTS GRIFFIN: Terrific. What do you want to talk about today?

[00:51] ANTHONY GRIFFIN: Isn't that always the way? You sit there and worry about, like, what are we going to talk about? And then you and I will have a coffee on Sunday morning and talk for hours about all kinds of things, then go. But I think maybe the pressure is the concern. Like, somehow we'll say something that'll be archived throughout history, wise and clever, and just realize someone will go, man, they didn't know what they were doing.

[01:08] SHIRLEY CLEMENTS GRIFFIN: That wasn't clever.

[01:10] ANTHONY GRIFFIN: Nothing clever about us.

[01:11] SHIRLEY CLEMENTS GRIFFIN: I think I'll start with just saying that this building we're in is. Anthony works here. He just started this job, and he.

[01:18] ANTHONY GRIFFIN: Started ten days ago with the public media network. That's the community media access here. And, you know, it's, the job description matched exactly the things that I've been working towards in my career. I'm basically in the third phase of my career at 53, having first, basically, I was in the military, and then I went to school, which is where we met here at western, down the road here.

[01:41] SHIRLEY CLEMENTS GRIFFIN: Nice to be back in Kalamazoo together.

[01:43] ANTHONY GRIFFIN: Yeah, it's really nice. We went out for lunch, and we were up and down the Kalamazoo mall here, just thinking about where we're going to go for this last third of our life and how we're going to navigate it. We don't have children. We do have cats that we treat like kids. Of course, maybe not that bad, but we did lose one of our little cats a couple weeks ago, the annihilator. And we realized that she, in a lot of ways, was the alpha to our little crew, a small, little wild, feral cat that we eventually domesticator. Maybe she domesticated us. And it's been hard. It's been this weird lack of gravity in the house. So we've all felt a little lost and hurt by that.

[02:24] SHIRLEY CLEMENTS GRIFFIN: It's amazing how much you learn from the animals that you bring into your life. Just the resilience that this little girl had. She was not bothered by anything, not really.

[02:34] ANTHONY GRIFFIN: When we first got her, she was very bitey. She had three teeth had ear mites. And we got her at one of the pet supply stores, and we erroneously thought that the other cat needed a partner. And we realized pretty quick that wasn't the case. But Nyla was about five to seven pounds, depending on what it was. And seriously, we'd pick her up and she'd do this thing with her arms. It looked like she was flying. So we called her God's butterfly or Niza La pepelanous. It's really odd. We just picked up our ashes and.

[03:10] SHIRLEY CLEMENTS GRIFFIN: You still, just this morning.

[03:14] ANTHONY GRIFFIN: It's that sense of, like, you know, people understand they love you. Yes, I understand. It's an animal. Yes. We project a lot of our own empathy and human foibles onto them. And yet there was something also about how the way the rest of us sort of circulated around. I think I mentioned when I came home after the. The first couple days, I said, it feels very quiet in here. And it wasn't like she was a scream or anything and ran around. I mean, at midnight, she had this habit of coming and doing.

[03:42] SHIRLEY CLEMENTS GRIFFIN: I know. I find that odd, too, because she mostly slept all day because she was, you know, a little old lady with arthritis. But she was such a big, giant presence. I'm just remembering one of her other nicknames was Pesci, like Joe Pesci, because she was a little tough girl.

[04:00] ANTHONY GRIFFIN: Yeah. And she swatted us and bite and scratches, and then eventually something about that. We never responded. I don't feel we did in a negative way. We just were like, okay, you just don't want to be anywhere near us right now. And eventually, I think I always see it as a sense of, like, she taught us a lot about how, especially in middle age, about you're slowing down. There's changes, there's thought patterns. Certainly in the last five, six years of our culture and society in America has been really tumultuous. I feel it has been. And there was just something about watching her. We had her for that five years, since we adopted her, had no idea how old she was. And there was something about that pacing that mirrored everything that we'd been through as well, just as people and our relationship in the last five years, that she taught us a degree of resilience, and I love her for that. And that's the part that I'm, like, terrified about what's going to happen next. But also, like, you know, she was a good example for that.

[05:01] SHIRLEY CLEMENTS GRIFFIN: We have two other pets as well, so we had basically three senior animals in our house. And I just have really loved, fallen in love with senior pets. And I just, I feel like at least as long as I'm able, I'd like to continue to adopt senior pets and just love them up and maybe in ways they might not have gotten earlier in life or, you know, there's all kinds of reasons pets are alone. Sometimes they have to be rehomed because their owners die or move on. But, yeah, I was just thinking, I read this book once. Pam Houston is one of my favorite authors, and I think that the novel was called Sight Hound, but the story was about how your animals are with you to teach you something. And then when that they've taught you that lesson, then they move on.

[05:56] ANTHONY GRIFFIN: Right.

[05:57] SHIRLEY CLEMENTS GRIFFIN: And even though that was fiction, that always seemed like truth to me. And talking about Nyla now, Nyla, aka the annihilator.

[06:08] ANTHONY GRIFFIN: The other cat's name is Deathshade. And then we have Casey, which we, we call the hard case. So we needed these really cool names because we want the veterinarian, when they call us, to say, hey, it's time to come and pick up deathshade. We're like, yeah, so you were saying.

[06:24] SHIRLEY CLEMENTS GRIFFIN: I guess I'll segue into the fact that we were not able to have children. And it's been, for me, that was painful, but it also feels right now the way things happened in our lives. I was. I'll ask you what you felt about it, but we've had such a wonderful relationship and marriage that I was a little concerned that we would lose that if we did have children.

[06:50] ANTHONY GRIFFIN: Interesting. You know, the thing that I'm having that moment where I'm like, do I want to talk about this or not want to talk about it?

[06:59] SHIRLEY CLEMENTS GRIFFIN: You don't have to. We can just say interesting, and we can change the subject.

[07:02] ANTHONY GRIFFIN: No, I think it's important to note this. Cause it's probably something that other people can empathize with at the time, that our relationship had these strange up and downs. Right. Certainly the maturity level, and I'm speaking for myself here, was not where it was appropriate to even be in a relationship with another person.

[07:21] SHIRLEY CLEMENTS GRIFFIN: Well, yeah, both of us, certainly before we got married, but it's almost. We used to joke that we got divorced, and then we got married because.

[07:29] ANTHONY GRIFFIN: Right, we got divorced, then we got our therapy, and then we.

[07:32] SHIRLEY CLEMENTS GRIFFIN: All that immaturity and fighting out of the way before, and then we just were like, are we going to do this or what?

[07:37] ANTHONY GRIFFIN: Yeah, we went to the marriage counseling. Yeah, we went to the marriage counseling. The pastor said to us, like, oh, I wish my married couples talked as well as you guys communicated with each other, and we realized, oh, it is time for us to be married. And I remember at a point just before that or around that time, you had asked me about children and me being angry with myself and how I grew up and how I was raised, I was like, well, I just. I don't see myself having kids. And I remember how incredibly upset you became. It was almost like I had slapped you. And I think about that occasionally when I either lose my temper or I don't empty the dishwasher in time or something. There's that moment in me that just has this overwhelming, deep well of regret for having said it the way I said it to you. And I'm so sorry that I had done it that way. Like, I don't want kids or something like that. You just looked so devastated by it, because, as I recall, was like, well, that's what I feel God put me here to do, is to be a mom. And later, when we found out that we had gotten to the point in our life that was a little too late in our early forties, and we were trying, and it didn't turn that way, the same emotional state happened. We went to the fertility specialist, and their conversation with us was so cold and clinical that I felt that I felt devastated by, like, how dare you talk to us like that? How dare you suggest this donor, this surrogate, or this. That. Like, it was just very obviously clinical. That's their job. They were doing their job. But I was really frustrated by the lack of empathy. And I felt incredibly guilty because of how I behaved, not even, like, four or five years earlier, by saying that.

[09:20] SHIRLEY CLEMENTS GRIFFIN: I honestly just remember crying in the parking lot and then saying. Making a joke, like, I'm sure not the first people to cry in the parking lot of the fertility clinic.

[09:29] ANTHONY GRIFFIN: Yeah, the duck lake, the traffic going by. There was this moment. And the thing that really, I think, struck me was, like, how much it reminded me of that moment where I can't believe that I'm present. I caused it once. Now, these other people caused this to happen, this experience to you.

[09:43] SHIRLEY CLEMENTS GRIFFIN: I don't want you to feel that way. I will tell you that there was a moment, well before we got married, where I just gave it to God. I think it was even on a good Friday, because I was at church, and I don't go to church regularly now, unfortunately. But at the time, it was very helpful to me. I remember just sitting there and going, okay, God, I'm gonna give you this children thing that's on my heart. I don't know what's gonna happen. And I just felt like he was gonna give me that opportunity to, like, you know, how if you even. You don't have children of your body, you still, like, are able to help so many people in so many different ways. And maybe it's, like, through teaching or something, I'm like, it's going to be okay.

[10:30] ANTHONY GRIFFIN: Yeah.

[10:30] SHIRLEY CLEMENTS GRIFFIN: And just gave that away. Gave that up. Gave that up meaning, like, that desire that I had to have that.

[10:37] ANTHONY GRIFFIN: Sure.

[10:39] SHIRLEY CLEMENTS GRIFFIN: And just said, I'm going to trust you to give me what I'm supposed to have and to help the people I'm supposed to help. So please don't feel that way.

[10:49] ANTHONY GRIFFIN: Okay, well, thank you. I guess it's the moments of weakness where that regret kind of creeps in and you doubt in oneself.

[10:58] SHIRLEY CLEMENTS GRIFFIN: I think we all do that. You have, like, there's certain, like, moments. You're like, remember when I screamed at that person in the parking lot? One time in my life? I did that. I still remember that person probably remembers me as this person who caused them anxiety. And they think about it the rest of their life. And it was one moment of me being immature and emotional. You know, we all have moments like that.

[11:19] ANTHONY GRIFFIN: Sure. Even in our jobs, because of exactly that, where it feels the response was aggravated. But then to have someone else's response to that, a reaction being so over the top that you kind of. You see the reflection of that going, did I create that? And in my assertion that reflection back to me is like, is that who I am? And I know that I've run into that. And sometimes that's the guilt. Just as myself, as a programming my person, and is like, I I tend to look at things a little harshly because I can't help but take it personal. And it was interesting you mentioned this to me earlier this year when certainly all the health issues I was having, I was like, you know, sometimes the way you see things is almost like a persecute, you know, persecution complex. And I'm like, what? How dare you? I am. Just because. Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean it's not happening. And it was a very interesting. The way you had posed that to me in such kindness and thoughtfulness. I'm like, do I do that? Should I be more careful about my. My cynicism versus skepticism? Because I don't want to be toxic positive either. But being cynical is useless degree of what it is. But I want to be skeptical. Like, when tv, like, oh, they're trying to sell me something, but when we do it to ourselves, we call it truth. And that's not necessarily accurate.

[12:42] SHIRLEY CLEMENTS GRIFFIN: Well, I remember that I said it sort of like, okay, he. He has a tendency to think everyone's against him sometimes. Okay. But he also is very empathetic and intuitive, and sometimes he sees things other people don't see that, like, later, I'll go, oh, you were right about that. So I'm weighing these two things, and I decided to discuss that with you. I'm like, I believe you. I know that this is real for you, but let's consider whether it's. Sure it's your fear of someone, you know, taking advantage of you again, or if it's something that is not there.

[13:30] ANTHONY GRIFFIN: Yeah, well, it's growing up in an emotionally abusive household and at times, physically. So you're always kind of, like, gauging where the landmines are and trying to be ahead of the curve. And I understand that now, being this age, it took a lot of time and understanding to kind of figure out, like, you know, I'm not responsible, but I am accountable to my own actions. And there's a lot of things that I've done and behaved as a younger person where the drive to be a filmmaker and try to get things done. I made our relationship secondhand. But the part that I always remember about it now is how kind and supportive you were. It wasn't, like, times that you weren't going, dude, knock it off. You're a workaholic 80 hours a day. I don't like getting the scraps at the end of the day.

[14:10] SHIRLEY CLEMENTS GRIFFIN: Right. But we were friends for ten years before we started dating. So I remember thinking, and I was very immature at the time, too, like, very afraid, because I'd never really had a relationship that lasted, and I was afraid you were going to leave me, even though you were, like, my best friend.

[14:25] ANTHONY GRIFFIN: Yeah. So our relationship did kind of go up and down based on relationship, where we were in our lives and who we were with and the distance kind of always there. We were always friends with each other. And the friendships that I've always had with people have always been in their time and how they operate. I remember one time you had written this really cool story, and you sent it to me, and I had rewritten it because I was inspired by it, and you came so incredibly mad at me, and rightfully so, I literally rewrote.

[14:56] SHIRLEY CLEMENTS GRIFFIN: Because I was jealous of how easy creativity was for you. And then that I'm like, oh, I finally made something, and I show it to you because I admire you as an artist so much. And then you, like, rewrote the whole thing.

[15:08] ANTHONY GRIFFIN: It's so stupid on my part. The things that you learn later in life when you look at it and go, they'd be like, you give me a song or a painting, I go, beautiful. But it'd be so much more beautiful if I do this to it. Not accepting and acknowledging the gift of what you did. And that was so absurdly awful of me. And I may have apologized. I'm definitely apologizing now for austerity.

[15:28] SHIRLEY CLEMENTS GRIFFIN: It's going to be the apology conversation, the apology episode.

[15:31] ANTHONY GRIFFIN: It won't be. But I do want to ask you about this, because the part that I find fascinating about a relationship is you have such wonderful, incredible, giving, thoughtful parents. And I know we talked about kind of in this question sheet and everything, you had one in particular. You want to talk about your heritage and where you came from. And we talked about this before having, like, people might ask themselves, like, well, why don't you guys just get a, why don't you do adoption? You could adopt a kid, and you are adopted. And I've asked you that a few times in our life. Like, do we want to foster? Do we want to adopt?

[16:06] SHIRLEY CLEMENTS GRIFFIN: And I never felt ready. It's one of those things you have to just jump in both feet and go, okay, we're doing this. Yeah, we never got there. We still could, you know, we could still foster kids.

[16:18] ANTHONY GRIFFIN: I don't know, move away from cats.

[16:19] SHIRLEY CLEMENTS GRIFFIN: And dogs in the house, adopt at this point. I in my seventies, by the time they get out of high school.

[16:25] ANTHONY GRIFFIN: Yeah, there's a degree of, like, is that fair to them? I mean, we're not like some celebrities.

[16:29] SHIRLEY CLEMENTS GRIFFIN: In, unless you adopt an older child. We could, I don't know.

[16:31] ANTHONY GRIFFIN: Anyway, yeah, not something we're gonna solve here in the next 20 minutes. But it is a fascinating conversation that we've had a few times. We've talked about this, and I've always.

[16:41] SHIRLEY CLEMENTS GRIFFIN: Tried to take, your parents always told me, they told me from, I don't know how old, but I was old enough to know, I guess, to have a conversation about it. They always told me, what are you? And I'm like, I'm adopted. Why? Because I'm special. That's kind of how it was growing up. People would say, oh, you look like your mom. And I go, oh, ha ha ha. Yeah, sure I do. Right? Because I'm adopted. It was just always part of who I was. I never, I mean, I occasionally think, oh, I should find them. And I wonder if I have brothers and sisters.

[17:14] ANTHONY GRIFFIN: Sure.

[17:15] SHIRLEY CLEMENTS GRIFFIN: But every time I go down that path, I just get so terrified. I'm like, I don't want to know.

[17:20] ANTHONY GRIFFIN: Okay?

[17:21] SHIRLEY CLEMENTS GRIFFIN: Because my parents are my parents, my adopted parents, you know? And I really, I also, having said that, I really just can't stand it when someone says something like, oh, this is my adopted child, or, this is, is my stepdaughter, or this is my. That's your child.

[17:37] ANTHONY GRIFFIN: Yes.

[17:38] SHIRLEY CLEMENTS GRIFFIN: End of conversation. That's all you have to say.

[17:40] ANTHONY GRIFFIN: You share a lot, many traits with mom that are just like, the things that are back and forth where it's like, I'm my. And it's always been, you know, I'm my mother's daughter. And it's that really beautiful idea of, like, it has nothing to do with the genetic materials. It has everything to do with the behavioral and the environment. And the conversations and the stories they told have been just a matter of fact about growing up and struggling with lack of money or security or something. They always made sure you all were taken care of. And I look at that and think like, thank God there's not two of us in the same relationship trying to figure out these issues. In some degrees, we have a strange abandonment issue type of connection, but for different elderly, different reasons. And. But we're really good about pointing that out to each other, going, am I projecting this, or is this an issue, or am I just being full of nuts right now?

[18:36] SHIRLEY CLEMENTS GRIFFIN: Yeah, I can see how you would have that based on the way your family treated you. But it's always a mystery to me why I have abandonment issues, because I had a lovely childhood and wonderful adopted parents, and I just, I don't know. I grew up with some kind of insecurity some way, and I was very shy as a child and kind of overcame that just by being bold. And so those are two parts of my personality, super shy and super bold.

[19:07] ANTHONY GRIFFIN: You're one of the strongest people I know. And when people talk about you to me, they always admire and compliment about how you will come in and assess a situation or look at the room and listen. You demonstrate really great active listening skills for people to go the quiet authority of, like, going to decide what the context is, make sure you have the right questions, and then offer something either when it's appropriate or even when you're asked. And I really try to do much more of that now because of the great example you've demonstrated, as opposed to, say, when I was younger, as a young filmmaker, and I had something to prove of myself or prove to others that I wasn't just like this guy who got started late and he didn't know anything and I had something to prove, which is probably not uncommon for young guys to do. But I felt like I got started late, so always felt like I was running out of time or that I was going to die young or that my depression was going to take me out of the box and I was going to kill myself. And I was like, I got to beat. I got to beat this. And it got to the point where I was like, with the health and your love and just kind of stepping back a second ago, what am I racing towards? Especially with this last couple of years.

[20:17] SHIRLEY CLEMENTS GRIFFIN: Right. Crisis now, that's what you were going through.

[20:19] ANTHONY GRIFFIN: I think maybe if you want to get a little perpetual crisis from the twenties into my midlife crisis, and hopefully, you know, with the hormone changes that we all deal with and everything and definitely improving the health aspects and losing weight and just really the focus of getting a decent job and doing something that is of my highest level of contribution with people I actually dig working with. That means a lot.

[20:45] SHIRLEY CLEMENTS GRIFFIN: That brings me back around to something you said earlier about how I supported you in the beginning of our relationship when I wanted to spend more time with you, but you were out doing your filmmaking. It's because I had known you for ten years and I knew that I was seeing you finally find something that you loved, and I wasn't going to tell you to stop doing that, to come spend time with me as much as I wanted you to. Yeah, I knew that I had my own insecurities to get over with, to get over as well as I needed you to go and do what you needed to do for yourself. So we both were in that place.

[21:23] ANTHONY GRIFFIN: Well, thank you. Just, you know, looking back on that and thinking about you, that weird sort of tinting of like, oh, it wasn't as bad as it was, and it's not as great as it was. Trying to look at it sincerely.

[21:35] SHIRLEY CLEMENTS GRIFFIN: Well, it wasn't fun. We were both trying to grow up and, like, be people who were able to be in a relationship. We were both so, like, yeah, I.

[21:44] ANTHONY GRIFFIN: Don'T know, didn't have the capacity or the bandwidth. But now getting to this point, we're.

[21:48] SHIRLEY CLEMENTS GRIFFIN: Not loving ourselves enough to be able to be.

[21:51] ANTHONY GRIFFIN: It's right around this time, it's been like 30 years, right? 30. 29 years since we met.

[21:55] SHIRLEY CLEMENTS GRIFFIN: Yeah. 1993.

[21:57] ANTHONY GRIFFIN: We met 93. That's right. And do you remember the first time that we meth.

[22:02] SHIRLEY CLEMENTS GRIFFIN: I don't. But I have this vague memory, okay, of like, our what?

[22:07] ANTHONY GRIFFIN: Well, I remember it well.

[22:10] SHIRLEY CLEMENTS GRIFFIN: I remember you were taking a writing class with my friend Dan Stockman, who I knew from the newspaper I worked at in college. And he brought you in to meet me so you could become a writer and get to know us because I think you wanted to write for the section I was the editor of. That's what I was.

[22:27] ANTHONY GRIFFIN: Yeah, I used to be an entertainment reporter for the other school, and then I transferred two years in to go to school here at Western. And Dan and I had creative writing class together. And him and I, of course, just hit it off like peas and carrots, right? So he says. And I found out he worked for the newspaper, and I said, hey, I'd like to get a chance to come down there and meet someone. And you are running the department for the entertainment section. And that's when we first met. And I came in and did some writing or gave you some samples, and you're like, oh, such a hack. I can work this.

[22:57] SHIRLEY CLEMENTS GRIFFIN: No, you were great. I don't know. I liked you right off. I thought you were super smart and really nice and cute.

[23:07] ANTHONY GRIFFIN: Totally hateful.

[23:08] SHIRLEY CLEMENTS GRIFFIN: Until I. Here's my joke. And it's true, though. And I'm like, I thought, oh, he's kind of cute. And then I find out you were in a relationship. I was like, oh, okay, we'll be friends.

[23:17] ANTHONY GRIFFIN: Yeah.

[23:17] SHIRLEY CLEMENTS GRIFFIN: And then, you know.

[23:19] ANTHONY GRIFFIN: Yeah. Well, you and Dan were at my first wedding. You were also at the second one, too, so.

[23:24] SHIRLEY CLEMENTS GRIFFIN: Yeah, well, I was standing up front.

[23:27] ANTHONY GRIFFIN: We didn't invite Dan to the second one. He was just like, no, you can't come to it. We did a real small wedding for the way we want to do. It was like, we did a real small wedding at our friend's farm. Lit up the tree. It was on 4. July, 4 July. And we basically didn't reverse. We did the dinner, we did the photos. We did the pictures. Then we got married in the evening under the tree with the lights. And then we went, did fireworks, and then we drove the hell out of town. It was absolutely one of the best days of my entire life. I still look at those photos and get that warm, I know, heart whelming feeling of like, this is incredible. And then a couple weeks later, we had a reception in downtown Grand Rapids at the old McFadden building. Haunted, apparently. I didn't know any of those, but it was. It was an amazing event.

[24:15] SHIRLEY CLEMENTS GRIFFIN: People haunted by people hanging, dancing, haunted by dancing.

[24:18] ANTHONY GRIFFIN: We let people do their own djing. It was. It was really quite an event.

[24:23] SHIRLEY CLEMENTS GRIFFIN: I kept hearing friends tell me how they'd have these giant weddings that their families had imposed on them, and I'd see them being unhappy during the day, and they'd talk about how the whole day was just a blur and they didn't even remember their own wedding day or necessarily enjoy it. And that's why we were like, no, we're going to do something different. We're going to have this really small ceremony and really enjoy our time and our day and make it about us.

[24:48] ANTHONY GRIFFIN: Yes.

[24:49] SHIRLEY CLEMENTS GRIFFIN: And then we can have a party later.

[24:50] ANTHONY GRIFFIN: Yeah. Friends and family. It was just. It was just really an emotional, beautiful moment. I really enjoy that. And I. I like to think that maybe in some degree, that's what heaven's like, right? We get there, that's, you know, that kind of emotional state. Nyla will run up to us and be like, hey, I want to fly.

[25:07] SHIRLEY CLEMENTS GRIFFIN: Up that tree in northern Michigan. All lit up in the dark of summer. And the cats are running around.

[25:13] ANTHONY GRIFFIN: Yep. Lily and Nyla and then Casey Deathshade will still be around, but, you know, we'll be there with her when she gets here. So. I love these questions. These are really cool. Is there anything that you've ever wanted to ask of me that you want to know that I might not have told you or suggested I can't think of? Pretty open book when it comes to that.

[25:36] SHIRLEY CLEMENTS GRIFFIN: You tell me things you want to talk about. I know there's a lot of things that you're like, ugh, I'd rather forget that.

[25:42] ANTHONY GRIFFIN: Yeah, well, I'm always a big memory guy, right? As a writer, you're always trying to delve into these emotional states or hooks to put into stories, to kind of do things, because people might not see that, but it's an emotional release to say, oh, I kind of got rid of that demon, or I got rid of that thing that was spooking me a little bit. I don't want people to judge me for it. So I'm not going to sit there and go, hey, this, this and that if it means this to me. But there's some things also that just are just left. Just let them.

[26:09] SHIRLEY CLEMENTS GRIFFIN: Well, I don't like people to revisit their trauma just so I can learn more about them. But I am someone who likes to talk about people who are gone, and that has upset people before. Like, my friend Andy died when we were in college. He was in a diet of smoke inhalation in a fire. He was the brother of my friend Vince, and I used to always talk about him. I'd be like, well, we'd be together. I'd be like, oh, let's drink one to Andy. And I not even thinking that this would be upsetting because, you know, I'm just trying to celebrate someone we loved, and he just started bawling. And ever since then, I'm like, is it okay to talk about, you know, like, we have our friends who lost their baby. And I talked to her about it and said, I like to celebrate those who are gone. Can I talk about her? Or would you rather just not? She's like, oh, talk about her.

[26:59] ANTHONY GRIFFIN: Yeah. And I had a chance to talk to him about that earlier this year and how upset I. And angry I was. And I think maybe someone was just me also feeling the sense of, like, one there. They'd be amazing parents. Like, if I some other form of life, I'd like to come back and be their kid because they're that amazing as people. And when this happened, it was utterly devastating for them. And to see them go through that, and then I felt so guilty. I think maybe just tying it back to what we're talking about, I just had the sense of, like, people who deserve to be parents. And I'm not saying we didn't deserve to be parents, but it's like, you know, do this or don't do this. They want to be parents. They should be parents. And then they have that happen. Certainly during the midst of COVID and this pandemic, it was like, not one more thing, not one more step. But this is absurd. This is not fair. Yes, life's not fair, but to see something awful happen to really great people, I don't even really understand how to process that still.

[28:04] SHIRLEY CLEMENTS GRIFFIN: Yeah, I was just. You were just reminding me how she got really sick at the beginning of COVID I don't think it ended up being Covid, but I was, like, hysterical. Like, oh, my God, I was so angry. Angry at her employers for making her come in when she could have done her job from home easily. Yeah, angry that it happened to her when she had just gotten pregnant. And, you know, it also just led my thought pattern to, like, we don't know anyone who actually has died from COVID We know people who have had loved ones died, but.

[28:36] ANTHONY GRIFFIN: Or have long Covid in their lives.

[28:38] SHIRLEY CLEMENTS GRIFFIN: How is that possible that we gotten through this? And you. My. Neither of you or I have had it, nor do we have any loved ones who have died. From it.

[28:47] ANTHONY GRIFFIN: Yeah. We have many people we love and care about who have extended family who've had to deal with that. But we've been really grateful and blessed to at least in some ways sidestep that devastation. And I count it as a blessing, clearly.

[29:02] SHIRLEY CLEMENTS GRIFFIN: Oh, it is. But it's just, you know, nobody's special. We're all in this together. So how did we navigate that? I don't know, but I'm grateful.

[29:14] ANTHONY GRIFFIN: Well, we say that now and then. You'll find out ten years from now. We died from COVID We just got.

[29:18] SHIRLEY CLEMENTS GRIFFIN: Our shots today, so our rooster here.

[29:22] ANTHONY GRIFFIN: The cultural archivist in 21 50, will go, oh, jeez. And yet they got Covid. I do want to ask you about this you mentioned thing, and I think this would be a great thing to talk about, about religion, about finding a church you want to go to.

[29:38] SHIRLEY CLEMENTS GRIFFIN: Yeah.

[29:39] ANTHONY GRIFFIN: I've always practiced. I've always felt a need for faith in Christianity. Even as a little kid, I just had this sense of desire and necessity for something outside of myself to. I don't cling to. To believe in or just knew that was an existent thing for me, that there's more to this. Like quit. I like to say coincidence is no accident. There's. There's. To me, God is the space in between. It's neither active or reactive. It's just. It's not some dude in white beard up in the sky. It's not the spaghetti purple, spaghetti monster. It's not a devil in the ground. It's just this connection we have and we bring it together within ourselves by acknowledging respecting each other and even those that we have run afoul with. We can always find a correction to bring it back around. Sometimes that may not have happened in our lifetime, but maybe it will. Because I can think of friends that we've lost over the last few years because of political stances or decisions that were made or even just terrible things that have happened. We're like, I can't endorse that behavior anymore. I'm going to have to go this way now. And I understand that. I always felt that that was like, not a separation from God, but like, I'm listening to the next right step. But the thing that I know, having watched you go through your paths and things, like, I look to you for, like, spiritual leadership without putting a crutch on you or making it your mission to teach me anything. But I always acknowledge that you were very thoughtful in those manners and you're very well skilled. Having readdez and studied and being very certain about how pieces put together that I always ask you. I check you, like, hey, which book is this in? Or where is this at?

[31:26] SHIRLEY CLEMENTS GRIFFIN: The way I think of it, as I've done more study than you have, but I think you are the person who I've seen most walk the walk as far as your faith from anyone I've ever met, and it's amazing.

[31:41] ANTHONY GRIFFIN: That's very kind.

[31:42] SHIRLEY CLEMENTS GRIFFIN: I had a church that I was when I lived in Detroit for, like, five years, and it was very important to me, and I met a lot of good people, and it helped me grow up, and it helped me, you know, learn how to study God's word and have my own relationship. And then over the years, I've just realized the huge difference between having a relationship with God and a religion. It's odd being in. We live in Grand Rapids, which has, you know, some say more churches per capita than most places in America, but.

[32:18] ANTHONY GRIFFIN: Restaurants, nonprofits, churches, and theaters that I.

[32:21] SHIRLEY CLEMENTS GRIFFIN: Really want to be at. So I just do my own thing, you know? And it doesn't mean I love God less or I. I do miss the relationship of being in a group of.

[32:31] ANTHONY GRIFFIN: Yeah.

[32:32] SHIRLEY CLEMENTS GRIFFIN: People I consider Christ followers, but it's just. Just been so weird lately. The way people call themselves christians and don't behave in ways that I think are appropriate.

[32:42] ANTHONY GRIFFIN: Or the whole galvanizing and commercialization of using fear and God as the remedy for making money off the backs of scared people is disgusting. It sickens me. You know, they'll say, and I've heard this from any number of conduits or sources, like, there's no worse hate than christian love. And to see a philosophy getting damned by this. And then also, because that's the whole aspect of Christianity, this sort of persecution complex. Oh, no, I meant to say, when.

[33:11] SHIRLEY CLEMENTS GRIFFIN: I was back in the phase, when I was doing all that studying, I mean, you wouldn't believe how many people don't even read it. They just. Whatever the pastor says or the priest or whatever religion you follow, just.

[33:22] ANTHONY GRIFFIN: It just blows my mind. I mean, Jesus goes on the new covenant. I was like, yeah, that's. So the other one is the. Is the history, how we got here, particular building.

[33:32] SHIRLEY CLEMENTS GRIFFIN: I go in every week, told me this. That's what I'm gonna follow. Whatever fear based thing they're gonna tell me to do, or whoever they're gonna tell me to vote for, however they're gonna tell me to behave.

[33:42] ANTHONY GRIFFIN: Yeah. You know, the whole, like, oh, white, blue eyed Jesus told me this. And you go, that's not that's not even accurate. Why are you. Why do you behave with any kind of. It's non christian to act so Christianity, with the way these people do these performative things, and I find it insulting, which is weird, because as a, as a christian, true Christian, I feel not to judge, but I am. I will. I admonish those who act christian and don't actually practice Christianity. It's insulting. It's insulting to see that behavior like we're supposed to give of ourselves. I like to tell my students, I'm.

[34:19] SHIRLEY CLEMENTS GRIFFIN: Calling myself a Christian and call myself a Christ follower.

[34:21] ANTHONY GRIFFIN: Now it seems.

[34:22] SHIRLEY CLEMENTS GRIFFIN: It's real to me. I don't want to be.

[34:24] ANTHONY GRIFFIN: I hate that the labels get taken away for that stuff. It's, like, ridiculous.

[34:29] SHIRLEY CLEMENTS GRIFFIN: So we follow our own path together.

[34:31] ANTHONY GRIFFIN: Yeah, well, you fill your pitcher so that you're able to serve others by filling their cups. And I used to do the reverse. I'd be so angry because I'd fill other people's cups and my pitcher would be empty and be like, I'm giving to myself the self sacrifice. Like, okay, put the messiah complex away. Let's. Let's actually behave like you're supposed to pick up the book and read it once in a while. And then I also got back into stoicism and started reading those and those texts and how those things influence each other and really work on my temper and my temperament.

[35:05] SHIRLEY CLEMENTS GRIFFIN: Stoicism. And there's a lot of different tools in the world that come from different religions that can help you with your daily life practices, how to improve your own behaviors and your mindset. And so, you know, whatever. I think. I don't know. I think there's one God, and we all just call it different names. Honestly, that's how I feel about it. But whatever you follow, I don't think you should cut yourself off anyone who's listening to this, to that. I mean, unless it really offends you to not read anyone else's beliefs, which is an odd way to, like, be in the world, because you can't really have relationships with people who are different than you. But, like, stoicism, for example, or, like, some people take things from Buddhism and sure, yes, you know, and other religions that have helped them.

[36:02] ANTHONY GRIFFIN: I like to find tools to live.

[36:03] SHIRLEY CLEMENTS GRIFFIN: In the real world. I mean, we all have to take that spiritual guidance. We find and find a way to, like, put it into our daily lives. Nerve.

[36:14] ANTHONY GRIFFIN: Stand for something or you're gonna fall for anything. And I think if we don't demonstrate by good example, standing up for something. And, like, I have something I can say here. I can be anti racist. I can make space. I can demonstrate good choices or options for people that I feel is our role as human beings on this plane of existence, however this means, or whatever that is. I don't want to get all granola and woo woo about it, but it's like, that's my way of coping with the bat shit insanity that's going on in the world right now. In 2022, we just went through five years of utter turmoil. We're probably in another five years of this turning, as they call it, before we get to something new and innovative. So it's just. It's wild. Five minutes. We can go for hours.

[37:07] SHIRLEY CLEMENTS GRIFFIN: Yeah.

[37:09] ANTHONY GRIFFIN: What's your favorite beer?

[37:10] SHIRLEY CLEMENTS GRIFFIN: What's my favorite beer? Well, anything from Bell's brewery in Kalamazoo, Michigan. Thank you.

[37:15] ANTHONY GRIFFIN: Yeah. I like the Miller High life. Right? Like grandma beer, as we call it. Oh, geez. Now they're going to think that we're actually trying to sell it. Well, there used to be this beer called Miller High life back in the day, and it was just something really.

[37:26] SHIRLEY CLEMENTS GRIFFIN: Relaxed comes up in our life because it's called grandma beer. Because his grandma used to drink.

[37:30] ANTHONY GRIFFIN: Yeah, he used to drink it. And it's like that drink you have. Like, some kids have had cocoa, other kids have this. And we always. Not just. And they gave me beer as a kid, although that might have happened once or twice, but it is that kind of thing where you just go. It's cultural, it's a familial thing for us. And I think it's so charming that you recognize that. So back when I could drink a more alcohol or that was a part of my lifestyle, you always made sure there was grandma beer in the fridge.

[37:59] SHIRLEY CLEMENTS GRIFFIN: I'm there right now. Let's go home. I got so for you.

[38:03] ANTHONY GRIFFIN: I know we talked about ending this with the idea of, like, what we could give to people to tell them what makes a marriage work. I don't even know if successful is the right word, but what works for us?

[38:15] SHIRLEY CLEMENTS GRIFFIN: Well, we talk to each other. That was the problem when we. The joke we made about our divorce before we got married is we just were holding grudges and not talking to each other. I remember one time we were, like, talking to each other in a mean way, and I just heard the words coming out of my mouth, and I'm like, I'm never doing that again. I'm not talking to anyone I love like that. So just being respectful, but saying your true feelings in a way that is kind, that is also, like, helps you come to an understanding of each other and find a new way.

[38:54] ANTHONY GRIFFIN: I remember there was a situation in one of the festivals, situation we were doing, and this guy had written to me, and he was really angry because he hadn't been acknowledged by the people he worked with. And he wanted us to acknowledge him and his contribution of the work he'd done, like, five, six years earlier. And I was like, I have no way to prove this. It's just your word against whatever it is you're saying. And I don't. Not part of this relationship. Send me some proof of it. Send me the name of the guy, and I'll talk to him. He goes, I don't have to do any of that. And I started kind of going at him a little bit, like, why are you dumping this? It's not my baggage. I don't need carrot. And you saw the interaction, and you were very thoughtfully said, hey, listen, we don't know what's going on here, but there's three things you should always keep in mind. Responding to people. Oh, yeah? What's that? And you're like, no, is it true? Is it necessary? And is it kind? And I've used that so much with people. I think we've moved more towards what you use as a definition of honest with people, because people's version of truth can be very perspective oriented. But being honest with someone isn't. When you're honest with someone, you're speaking your truth. So I try to think of you.

[40:03] SHIRLEY CLEMENTS GRIFFIN: In a relationship with them. Sometimes you have to say hard things. If it's some stranger who's writing you an email, because something you did in your film festival five years ago, you're like, dude, come on, how can I help you? Or go away? Cause I don't.

[40:18] ANTHONY GRIFFIN: Yeah, I think I've learned, like, where do you put your energy into these types of things? To say, I acknowledge that you were hurt by it. There's nothing I'm going to do about it by that acknowledgement other than to say that's how you feel. And I respect those feelings, but I don't see a sense of having an apology for something like that because someone else is hurting.

[40:39] SHIRLEY CLEMENTS GRIFFIN: I forget which part of those three things that you said affected you.

[40:45] ANTHONY GRIFFIN: I think all three of them, the truth, the necessity and the kindness. Because I always found, like, yeah, I always speak the truth. I always think it's necessary. And then I go, but my kindness.

[40:54] SHIRLEY CLEMENTS GRIFFIN: But for me, it was, is it necessary? And I'm like, yeah, yeah, you're an idiot. But do I really have to tell you that? Can I just let it go?

[41:05] ANTHONY GRIFFIN: I find the kindness part for me is the struggle. And I've learned, really, by watching your example and how you've taught me to be more kind, but not just other people, but myself.

[41:16] SHIRLEY CLEMENTS GRIFFIN: That quiet deliberation thing I do is actually a skill because I didn't even know wildly.

[41:23] ANTHONY GRIFFIN: I can't tell you sometimes I've stolen from you.

[41:26] SHIRLEY CLEMENTS GRIFFIN: I was like, oh, I'll lean into that. Then.

[41:29] ANTHONY GRIFFIN: I've actually had people acknowledge. They're like, I love that you come into a room and you're quiet and you're observing and you. You wait to talk. I'm going. I didn't learn that. I learned that from my wife, that's all. Surely she taught me that.

[41:39] SHIRLEY CLEMENTS GRIFFIN: Well, everything good, I know that I learned from you too.

[41:42] ANTHONY GRIFFIN: I was just about to say the same thing. Everything good you learned from me. I mean, you learned was from me. Yes. I love you so much.

[41:50] SHIRLEY CLEMENTS GRIFFIN: I love you. Thank you for the wonderful conversation.

[41:52] ANTHONY GRIFFIN: Yes, likewise. It's an honor. And I'm humbled to know you. I can't wait to spend the rest of my life with you. No matter what we do and where we go.

[41:59] SHIRLEY CLEMENTS GRIFFIN: Okay. We're adopting three more cats.

[42:01] ANTHONY GRIFFIN: Done.

[42:02] SHIRLEY CLEMENTS GRIFFIN: Okay.

[42:02] ANTHONY GRIFFIN: All right.

[42:03] SHIRLEY CLEMENTS GRIFFIN: And a dog.

[42:04] ANTHONY GRIFFIN: And a dog. What.