Stephen Pagel and Mona Brenneman

[00:01] MONA BRENNEMAN: My name is Mona Brenneman I am 58 years old. Today is October 11, 2024. I am in Wichita, Kansas and my one small step partner is Stephen.

[00:13] STEPHEN PAGEL: My name is Stephen. I am 69 years old. Today is Friday, October 11, 2024. I'm in Wichita, Kansas and my one step partner is Mona.

[00:26] MONA BRENNEMAN: Steven's bio Born here in Wichita, Kansas and the only child in a mixed bi marriage religious family. I am gay. Graduated high school at 16 and college at 20 and currently retired. Have spent at least a week in 48 of our states. Based my life on these two statements. The measure of a mind's evolution is its acceptance the unacceptable and I'm exactly where I want to be and when I want to be. I prefer live one on ones instead of virtual ones.

[01:03] STEPHEN PAGEL: Okay.

[01:03] MONA BRENNEMAN: And whatever you'd like to ask. All right, so tell me a little bit. Explain a little bit about the mixed by marriage. Tell what is that?

[01:12] STEPHEN PAGEL: My mother was Catholic, my father was Lutheran and when they got to marriage, when they got married, basically my father signed my life away. When they got married, it was required for the church to approve it to my mother. He had to agree to send me to a Catholic grade school, high school and if at all possible, college. So that's where I got my education. And that was at times a problem. Second grade, second week of school. Remember this one very clearly. A nun approached me in class and explained to me that my father was going to go to hell and it was my problem. I stood up and I slapped her and walked straight down the principal's office. And that started my grade school education. But that was to some friends and some people I went to school with a problem and so their kids did not associate with me.

[02:13] MONA BRENNEMAN: Wow, what an experience. Tell me a little bit about the challenges you faced growing up. And as far as like being gay, I don't know when you started that realization.

[02:28] STEPHEN PAGEL: Probably somewhere around 8th grade or so when all the guys are talking about the girls and I'm like, don't feel that way. High school, same thing. A lot of things going on. I dated some girls, did some, you know, kissing and things. I was like, there's nothing here. Part of the reason why I realized I was only missing government. I could get out of high school at 16 and head off to college. And I went to Omaha, Nebraska, totally on my own, no parents, no other friends. And that's where I came out. Have honestly not had any personal problems other than parents chose just we're not going to ever discuss it. And I was like okay, that is fine. And though at one time my mother totally shocked me because she called and my father had passed out. And so I arrived and she said, you didn't bring John? I said, no. And she goes, well, don't you think that sort of rude with a family matter? You didn't bring the person you're living with. And I'm like, okay. So from then on out came to dinner, John came different things like that.

[03:51] MONA BRENNEMAN: Okay. They found acceptance or she did.

[03:54] STEPHEN PAGEL: Yeah, dad. Dad was very simple. He said, one of the things I did is I edited a three volume science fiction fantasy horror series on gay and lesbian characters. Had to be short stories. And I discussed my dad, mom had already passed away about dedicating it to him and her. And I said this. And he just said, I can talk to anybody about it except you. And I went, fine. So I dedicate to him. And he had it sitting on living room coffee table.

[04:25] MONA BRENNEMAN: Very nice. Yeah, great. All right. Well, you sound like you've had an interesting growing up and that's amazing that you finished high school at 16 and went on to college. Very good. What have you done for a living in your life? You said you're retired.

[04:48] STEPHEN PAGEL: That would take a long time explaining. I've had probably, I think one time, my God, kids wanted to know and we worked out. I had like 28 jobs or so. But the major things is I taught high school when I graduated and did that for four years. And then my roommate, actually Teddy, worked. She worked at computer programming company here and said, they will pay you twice as much. Get your butt down there. And so at the end of the school year I did and I went and did that. Then moved to New York and did programming there. And then because of my reading, ended up going to Barnes and Noble, becoming working my way up to being management and then in the corporate office as a buyer of science fiction fantasy. Then moved to Atlanta to head the production some things of a science fiction company there. And then decided they aren't doing what I want to hear and got with a friend of mine who is an artist and we set up our own independent independent publishing house after that, got done, worked at Kroger up to assistant manager, transferred back here to Wichita and that's where I end up retiring from.

[06:02] MONA BRENNEMAN: Wow, very nice. You've been busy in your lifetime.

[06:06] STEPHEN PAGEL: Yes, it's. I do at times get bored. So I'm like, okay, it's time to move on.

[06:12] MONA BRENNEMAN: Mm. Okay. So looking back on your life, what's your biggest regret?

[06:23] STEPHEN PAGEL: Carrie, we were dating. Everything was working out great and decided that because our apartments came down, we were actually going to move into each other, with each other. And in the middle of the conversation, he found out that I was a legal power of attorney to a friend of mine I've known since high school to her two children. And he turned around and said, well, when are you going to let her know that you're not going to do that anymore? And I said, I'm not. And that's when I found out we always did things in the Village. I didn't think about it. He was actual heterophobic and refused to deal with straight people. And I walked out. And it hurt. It hurt so bad.

[07:11] MONA BRENNEMAN: Yeah.

[07:11] STEPHEN PAGEL: Because that was the one. Except for that one thing.

[07:14] MONA BRENNEMAN: Right. It's tough.

[07:16] STEPHEN PAGEL: So. But I said, no, no, I'm not giving up my family. My best friend, if something. Because she did have health problems. So every now and then, I'd get a call and say, I'm going to be undergoing some surgery. I said, fine. She knew if something happened, I would sell everything in New York, move back to Wichita, no problem. That was it.

[07:35] MONA BRENNEMAN: That's tough. Yeah. You got through it, though.

[07:38] STEPHEN PAGEL: Yeah. Honestly, the only time in my life I have been drunk because I called up my cousin who lived there, and she heard from my voice, she said, come over. I went over, explain what was happening. It's the only time I ever got drunk. And she made me stay. Of course, it stayed at the house, but I was just wrecked.

[07:54] MONA BRENNEMAN: Yeah. It's an emotional.

[07:56] STEPHEN PAGEL: Yeah.

[07:57] MONA BRENNEMAN: Big letdown.

[07:58] STEPHEN PAGEL: Yeah.

[08:00] MONA BRENNEMAN: All right, so tell me your quote. You've lived your life on those two statements. Tell me what those mean to you.

[08:11] STEPHEN PAGEL: Well, the first one is. Well, they both come down to one thing, is that you end up. If you take your responsibility for your life, then that gives you an immense amount of freedom. And most people don't see that. But if I'm in a situation and I'm not comfortable, I can leave. And there's one thing I noticed when I was really looking, I did forget to put. And it says that I am exactly where I want to be when I want to be. And somehow I left out who I want to be. And that allows me to have all the different friends. Teddi, she did drugs, and she was a member of the Hell's Angels when the Hell's Angels were really. I was gay. And we simply had a rule at the house is everyone has the right to say no. Don't freak out. If I say no and you think I'm a narc. And my friends don't freak out if they say no, and they think they're gonna get beat up. But it's allowed me to associate with so many different people and just always. They knew who I was. They know who I am, and I always did that. And then the measure of the mind's evolution is there's so much going on out there and so many people close their mind to it that I don't. And that's why I'm constantly changing and constantly growing, and things will happen. And my friends are just like, how do you associate with them? Why not? How do you think? And that's where I'm always at.

[09:43] MONA BRENNEMAN: Very good. I had one more question. I think I lost it in my head. Do you feel like you're happy?

[09:54] STEPHEN PAGEL: Yes. Overall, yes. It's one thing my God kids talk about and their kids, my God son just had a baby. And I'm constantly. I'm one of the adults that comes in and I get on the floor and I play with her, and they look at me and I'm like, hey, this is fun. I get to do things I don't get to normally do as an adult because everybody would look at me funny if I did. But with a baby, you can get by with anything.

[10:22] MONA BRENNEMAN: Yeah. What do you think happens when you die?

[10:31] STEPHEN PAGEL: There was an old song that I used to deal with, and I always said, I know there is no heaven, but I pray there is no hell. There's that whole dichotomy in there of one or the other. I think it's more like an evolutionary thing. I do think we have the chance to come back and just be something different, to learn something different. And that's what I'm looking at right now, and that's what I'm comfortable with. Though I do have a lot of friends that are into different religions, and we talk about it, and you're like, okay. And as I get older, have you changed your mind? I go, no, because it's easier when you're young to think about anything. And as you get older, you're like, hmm.

[11:14] MONA BRENNEMAN: What if we die and we find out there is a God?

[11:18] STEPHEN PAGEL: Then I guess he's going to decide I'm going to hell. I don't think I, quote, deserve it. But if that's the judgment, the only judgment that he considers important, then, yeah. And right now I'm willing to take that risk. I realize that quote from other perspectives, that's eternity. I'm not going to change out of fear. If something happens along the line and I may, but I won't change out of fear. I've never. Can't think of really anything I've done out of fear.

[11:52] MONA BRENNEMAN: Okay. Sounds good. Thank you.

[11:57] STEPHEN PAGEL: Okay, on. Wait a minute. I gotta read the bio first, right?

[12:03] MONA BRENNEMAN: Yes.

[12:04] STEPHEN PAGEL: Yes. Okay. Okay. I'm a parent of three grown children who are in their 30s. I have seven grandchildren. It's important to me to have a relationship with God and that moral compass of my life. I'm a mental health and substance abuse therapist. I've had lots of changes in the last four years with going through a divorce, getting remarried, moving to a new city, finding a new church, trying to make new friends and adjusting to a marriage and bought a house. I guess my first question is, you do talk about religion, but don't discuss what kind of religion?

[12:41] MONA BRENNEMAN: Christian religion. Just that there's one God, Jesus Christ, and he's the only true God.

[12:49] STEPHEN PAGEL: Is there a particular church?

[12:52] MONA BRENNEMAN: You know, I grew up in the Methodist Church.

[12:54] STEPHEN PAGEL: Okay.

[12:55] MONA BRENNEMAN: I've since gone to the Wesleyan Church for many years, which is a branch off the Methodist Church. However, I've been in Catholic churches. I've had relatives who were Catholics. Relatives and friends. So I have been in the Catholic Church. I don't necessarily agree with what they teach. I used to go to the Baptist church for several years. Very similar to the Wesleyan. I've been in charismatic churches which are just promote a lot of healing, a lot of speaking in tongues, that sort of thing. So basically, I feel like the Wesleyan Church mostly lines up with the Bible.

[13:38] STEPHEN PAGEL: Okay. Which I'm not familiar with. Can you tell me a little bit about the Wesleyan Church?

[13:43] MONA BRENNEMAN: The Wesleyan Church is just really. Gosh, it's hard to even explain it. Just if you've read any of the Bible, it just lines up with God's scripture. It's really very similar to maybe the Methodist, the Baptists, those kinds of things. It's just that the few differences are mainly that just kind of. The Methodist is more structured. They have their more sayings and that sort of thing. And there's a lot of. There is some similar similarities in Catholics, you know, just a little bit of the beliefs only, you know, kind of differences. Catholics believe in more Mary and confession, whereas, you know, maybe the Wesleyan. We believe in just asking God, repenting to God rather than repenting to a priest, that sort of thing. You know, we pray to God rather than to Mary. So just kind of like that.

[14:44] STEPHEN PAGEL: If I'm hearing right, it sounds more personal.

[14:46] MONA BRENNEMAN: Very much so. You know, I believe, you know, I was raised in a Christian Home, however. So that gave me a really good foundation. However, you know, have I questioned God? Of course. Have I talked to people in depth about different types of beliefs, evolution, Wiccan, witches, Buddhism, Jehovah Witness, Catholic. So I've talked in depth to a lot of different types of people and not necessarily to question what I believe in, because I truly believe that God is real and alive. I felt his presence many times. May sound crazy, but I do feel like he does reveal himself to people when we seek Him. I feel like he's. When you do seek him, he does, like I said, he does show himself. I lost my mother in law years ago to cancer. And just one example is it was when she was diagnosed with cancer. I was devastated. She was like my mom. And so I just really did a lot of praying and seeking God. And in the Bible it says, you know, if you seek me, you'll find me. And I took that literal and I told God, I said, I need you, I need your peace, I need your strength. And I prayed about it a lot. And some people can kind of call this, okay, your brain's working overtime or whatever. But I do feel like that God gave me a dream. And in that dream he told me that she would pass away and it would happen. It was his exact words, it'll come to pass. And he didn't tell me when, but it was a way to prepare me. And so within a few months she did die. So I had that opportunity to spend with her and prepare my children for her death because they were close to her too. So, you know, it's. There was a lot more to that dream because in that dream he showed me where she would be and that she would be with him. So it was comforting in that way.

[16:55] STEPHEN PAGEL: That's good.

[16:55] MONA BRENNEMAN: Yeah.

[16:56] STEPHEN PAGEL: And then I have to say, reading about all the changes you've been through, I initially read that and part of me was like, that's exciting. That's a roller coaster. Also, it could be very frightening.

[17:13] MONA BRENNEMAN: Yeah.

[17:14] STEPHEN PAGEL: What? And one, you didn't say you went, excuse me, you said you went through a divorce, but you didn't say if it was your or his choice. And that would, I would think matter depending upon how that started. So what was that whole process through that?

[17:30] MONA BRENNEMAN: Well, good and bad, you know, like you said, a little bit of excitement, a little bit of, a lot of grief, a lot of hurt. I was married for 30 some years to my children's father and it was me that wanted out of the relationship. He was and is a good man. And however There were circumstances where I wasn't happy for a long time. And so I felt like that I talked with him about working on things more, which is something that we had talked about or I talked to him about a lot through the years. There was a lot that went into our relationship where I felt like that he just did not engage well with me or the children. And I had to raise our children by myself for the most part. And so there was just a lot of internal unhappiness for me. And he wasn't changing. He didn't work on things. Long story short, I initiated it. We separated, agreed to work on things that didn't happen on his end. And so I asked him for a divorce a year later because nothing had changed. And so it was very much a grief time for me, very difficult time. And through that, again, I sought God more. Not that I wasn't before, but really leaned into God. And there was some negative relationships after the divorce that happened to me that I won't go into depth about, but hurtful situations that happened. And I didn't date for a long time. I was divorced, separated and then divorced maybe a year and a half, then decided I would date, dated a couple of guys, and then I met the man I ended up marrying. And I was living in Oklahoma, so I've only been in Wichita a couple of. Close to a couple years. But my children, meanwhile, had a lot of difficulty with the divorce, and there was a lot of emotions they were dealing with. So they went through a time period where they slowly just stopped talking to me. And that was very difficult because my children were and are everything to me. So I. I still got to see my grandkids, part of my grandkids. But my children and I are amending that relationship. We're working on it. And today we're doing so much better. And I get to see them on a regular basis for the most part. And we're rebuilding, and it's. It's good. And, you know, I always will love their father. There's always going to be a part of my heart that loves him, you know, how can you not when you've been with someone for so many years? So anyway, moving from Oklahoma to Kansas and remarrying, and I left all my friends behind, and my. My family is still there. My parents were still alive. So I. I try to visit grandkids as often as I can, my kids and my parents, and try to stay in touch as much as possible. We FaceTime, we talk on the phone, we text with the Grandkids or I do. And then my children are getting to know my new husband. So it's a new journey for everybody.

[21:14] STEPHEN PAGEL: Curious. Where in Oklahoma?

[21:16] MONA BRENNEMAN: Alva, Oklahoma.

[21:18] STEPHEN PAGEL: Okay.

[21:19] MONA BRENNEMAN: And it's close to the Kansas Panhandle, but it's closest to Hartner. Kiowa, Kansas. I don't know if you know where that's at.

[21:27] STEPHEN PAGEL: Okay, just ask, because I have, like, relatives in seven different cities in Oklahoma. That's where both my parents all grew up, throughout Oklahoma.

[21:37] MONA BRENNEMAN: Really?

[21:37] STEPHEN PAGEL: So I was like, oh, wow.

[21:39] MONA BRENNEMAN: What are some of the cities?

[21:41] STEPHEN PAGEL: Ponca City, Oklahoma. Perry is where they all grew up. Stillwater, Tulsa, Tonkawa. I know I left a couple out.

[21:49] MONA BRENNEMAN: Yeah, absolutely. If you go down I35 from Wichita to Blackwell.

[21:54] STEPHEN PAGEL: Yep.

[21:54] MONA BRENNEMAN: And head straight west and don't make any turns, you'll run right into Alva, about an hour and ten minutes down the road. You'll run right through it.

[22:05] STEPHEN PAGEL: Okay.

[22:05] MONA BRENNEMAN: Very familiar with Ponca City.

[22:08] STEPHEN PAGEL: Okay. I think that. With that. So let's see. Since you started, I guess I'll grab my first question. Oh. What made you want to do the interview today?

[22:20] MONA BRENNEMAN: My main reason for doing this interview was just to step out of my comfort zone and get to know someone who is different from me. I knew that they were going to place me with someone who probably was maybe opposite in many ways of who I am. And I wanted to work on finding that commonality because I believe that as human beings, no matter who we are, what we believe, there is some sort of commonality somewhere. And if there's, you know, I believe that. But if there happened to not be, I still wanted to get to know someone who was different than I am. I feel like I said, in the past four years, I've made a lot of changes. I feel like that these changes have changed me in a very good way because it has opened my eyes a lot of looking at different perspectives, different people, different challenges, different. Just different things. And that maybe I didn't consider before. I feel like when I was younger, and probably mostly throughout my life, I've kind of had a closed mind to people, to certain types of people, and whether it's someone with a different race, different ethnicity, that sort of thing. And I've had gay friends before. There was a couple of guys in the town I lived in that were very kind and sweet and got to know them a little bit. But, you know, for the most part, I don't. Don't have gay friends. And it's not that I don't want them. It's just that, you know, Right. We. We all tend to associate with people that we kind of who believe kind of like what we do. Right. For the most part. So I just wanted to experience something different.

[24:31] STEPHEN PAGEL: Good.

[24:33] MONA BRENNEMAN: What about you?

[24:37] STEPHEN PAGEL: I really enjoy meeting unique people because you're going to throw thoughts and comments at me that are going to get lodged in my brain of a particular file cabinet. I give my brain as a file cabinet, and they're going to go in there and off and on. I'm going to just look at them and go, this is different. And see if that puzzle piece can maybe fit in my life. Maybe not. Maybe so it doesn't matter. But it's the. For me, this is the way of learning. Like I said, I don't like, you know, using the cameras and everything on the computer because you really just don't. Or sometimes texting. But that's just. Yeah, I was really, like. I said, I was looking forward to this. I told her I was really excited, a little nervous because you never know, you know, and part of it was funny. But I wear T shirts everywhere. I probably have 60 T shirts. My God, kids are constantly giving me T shirts. And one of them, actually, I should say I probably have maybe a half dozen of them are very strong gay T shirts. And I thought about it and I said no, because I don't know how the other person is going to feel. And I don't want to be sitting here across from you and having you force you to look at something you're not comfortable with. That's just me. So I threw on this because to me, this is love, is love. And I try not to define it all. It's there, and hopefully we all find it in different ways.

[26:06] MONA BRENNEMAN: Well, I love your T shirt. And I will say I'm a T shirt junkie. I love T shirts. Everywhere I go, I have to go, oh, I like that T shirt. I want to get that T shirt. And I drive my husband crazy because he's not a T shirt person. But I have a couple of drawers.

[26:22] STEPHEN PAGEL: Full now, See, that is sometime we could get together, do lunch, and talk about our T shirts.

[26:28] MONA BRENNEMAN: Absolutely.

[26:30] STEPHEN PAGEL: Okay. Could you briefly describe in your own words your political values?

[26:38] MONA BRENNEMAN: I tend to fall more conservative, and I do believe that my political values do follow my moral beliefs, my Christian beliefs. The reason I feel like I align more with that is because I want a fair and just country. And I. I want people to be treated equally and, well, you know, it's. I'm fine if people are Buddhism over here or gay over here or religious or not religious or whatever it may be, or, you know, it doesn't matter to me what people believe in and you have your beliefs and that's okay. But don't try to influence me against Right or right. And so I just want a fair and loving country where people are. Can live and exist and be happy and be true to what they want. And that's what I see in a lot of society. More with the Democrats, I feel like with what they're presenting, you know, I'm fine if people want to come into our country, but they shouldn't come illegally. They need to go about it the right way. Right?

[28:06] STEPHEN PAGEL: Correct.

[28:06] MONA BRENNEMAN: We are. We are a country of immigrants. You know, my family came from Prussia, Russia, and they went to Canada and they filtered on down. And so, you know, I think that's what makes our country so diverse. How do we figure out how to put that together and live together? And I feel like a lot of the politics with what I see with the Democrats when I'm kind of looking at both sides is, you know, they're letting in the immigrants and their. But they're funding them and they're housing them. And we have homeless on the street and we have veterans who should not be on the street and who should be taken care of, who fought for our country. And those kinds of things bother me. Let's spend the money on the homeless. Let's help get them jobs, let's get them what they need. Let's help our veterans. So those kinds of things really bother me. And so to me, that's kind of where my values align more with the conservative side because they're helping the economy, they're supporting the people there. They're not saying, don't come into our country. They're saying, come in, but let's do it legally. Okay, so what about you?

[29:33] STEPHEN PAGEL: I've been registered as an independent ever since I could start registering. I vote for, I would say, ideas and concepts. I don't vote ever in a party line. I spend my time. I look up who's running on both sides, look at their voting record. If it's somebody, you know, I'm not totally familiar with, that's come on board and they. And I look and see who. And you're probably not. But Kansas used to be what they called a purple state. Half of representatives were from Democrats and half were from Republicans. And that was that way until Bob Dole ran because he was a Kansan, you know, and I would. A lot of times were voting both sides because I'd Say, okay, this person has got, like you said, I'm aligned with where you are and what direction you want to go to on these ideas and concepts. But I'm more aligned to this person and their direction on those ideas and concepts. So I vote. Like I said that I have never voted a party line because I don't agree with everybody in either party. And friends of mine will talk. And, you know, it takes a lot of. Takes a lot of digging because they'll talk about stuff and I'll say, what? And I said, I think you got that from a blog. And I get nothing from blogs. They occasionally can make a mistake. Occasionally they will reword on marijuana. So go find. Hey, you got time. Look into congressional records. It'll tell you exactly who your politician has voted, how they voted, and what goes on. Take time to learn all that information. And they're like. And so, like, as we're getting closer to the election, I'm spending more and more time still trying to track down some things. And you know what? Because like I said, you can listen to what they say, and you're like, okay. But then sometimes you find out they actually voted differently. And you're like, all right. And things are happening right now in this country in so many ways. It's very interesting. My father's parents were both from Germany, and their families moved over at the same time. So my grandpa and grandma were in arranged marriage. They really had not known each other when they got married.

[31:58] MONA BRENNEMAN: Wow.

[31:59] STEPHEN PAGEL: So it's very interesting talking to them as I grew up about what it was like and things like that. So I do my best to try and find out who's doing what, and then I make my decisions. Some people have you pre voted? I go, no, I am still working some things out right now. And you're right, it's not easy today. Everything going on, to me, it's worth the effort of finding out, because why aren't you voting? And it's the old phrase. I said, honestly, if you don't vote, you have no right to say what happens over the next four years.

[32:39] MONA BRENNEMAN: Exactly.

[32:39] STEPHEN PAGEL: You take a stand or not.

[32:42] MONA BRENNEMAN: Very well said.

[32:46] STEPHEN PAGEL: Tell me about one or two people in your life who have the biggest influence on you and what did they teach you?

[32:53] MONA BRENNEMAN: One person that has the biggest influence on me and still does today is my sister. I'm the youngest of four. My sister is the oldest. There's seven years difference between us, and there's two brothers in the middle. And my sister stepped in my life in a different way when I was about 9 or 10. And she actually said. Led the. Led me to Christ and said a prayer with me, and I accepted Christ in my life through prayer. And just at that time, I was just going through a lot of emotions and some difficult circumstances, and my sister saw I was struggling. And in my parents, like I had said before, I was raised in a Christian home, and my parents were young when they got married. I think they were 17 and 18. And they were on their own. They didn't really have instruction or much help necessarily, so they were really just kind of surviving themselves, working. And we always had food on the table and had a home and clothes and that sort of thing. But then they didn't know really how to help us with our emotions and things like that. And, you know, they just were doing the best they could. And so my sister saw that I was struggling with some things, and so she talked with me one evening, and we really bonded over that moment. And so my sister has always been very much a mentor, a friend, almost of sorts, a mom figure of sorts in my life. And she has always been there for me no matter what. Never judging, never condemning, never always loving, always there. And she. I love her so much. And, yeah, she just had a visit here about a week ago, so I only get to see her about once every year or two years because they live in Washington State. So we talk on the phone quite a bit. Stay in touch. But what about you?

[35:16] STEPHEN PAGEL: Who's actually. It was my cousin in New York City, Dorothy. I'm an only child. My mother and dad had the opposite RH blood factors, so the first, second, and fourth were all stillborn. So. And like I said, going through school was rough, and she just always. She was about a decade older than I was and just took me under her wing back then. We had some pretty impressive phone calls talking because you had to pay for it. But my parents would go out and mom would go visit her brother, and we would do things, and she was always, like I said, and we would talk and I still remember. And she had. It was like me, she has a great sense of humor. And so always when she flew out and the first place we went to eat was Taco Tico or Taco Bell, because she said everybody was fancy Mexican back then and nobody had the good American stuff. So we would. And we would talk about it. We knew everything about each other. One time I came home and she was talking. She goes, oh, I need to run some errands. Will you drive me? And I was like, okay, this is the Phrase, we need to talk a moment. And she goes, you do know that right now your mother is having a major internal war inside of her? And I'm like, okay, no, I didn't. And she said, well, you've become legal guardian to Karen's daughter Stephanie, who she told everybody has been named after you. And Karen was not married at the time. So your mom discussed with me if it was wrong to pray for the mortal sin that you have a child out of wedlock instead of being gay. And we both laughed. And she goes, I just talked to her and said, you know, gotta be comfortable, whatever. But she said, I'm really. You need to accept I think your son is gay. You know? And so she like I said, yeah, I was always there. We went through a lot of stuff, and we would talk and all that. And then the second person, when I met them, I didn't know they were who they were. I'm a big science fiction fantasy reader, and Theodore Sturgeon is, like, one of the authors I absolutely love and adore. Most people don't know him. Did you ever watch Star Trek? Do you remember Amok Time?

[37:43] MONA BRENNEMAN: A little bit.

[37:45] STEPHEN PAGEL: That was his. He did several shows for Star Trek. They ended up being some of their top shows. And so I met him, actually at a philosophy convention where you only used your first name. And so I didn't know who he was until the end of the philosophy. And then I found out, and I was like, oh, my God. Oh. I remember talking about him. He led some questions, okay, but he also had a pendant, and it said, ask the next question. Because he thought that was the entire problem of the world is you ask, you hear an answer, and then you make a judgment call and you walk away. He said, always take the answer, turn it into a question until you both understand that you're talking about the same thing. And then he had a pendant made for me that I wore for decades and decades. So he also influenced. I'd meet him at conventions, we would do things, and he'd say, okay, is this happening? You know, so between them. And then Thea Alexander, who came up with these phrases, the two of them really put things together and have sort of set the guiding of my life. Because, like I said, just unfortunately, the guiding I had in the Catholic school was not the best. And it took me a while to get over that. That, like, okay, that may not be everybody, but that as a child, things get imprinted on you and it takes a while to get rid of them, you know? So, yeah, that is that. Okay.

[39:20] MONA BRENNEMAN: That's awesome. Yeah, I like that. Ask the next question. Yeah, I like that a lot.

[39:26] STEPHEN PAGEL: Yes. It just. We do it.

[39:29] MONA BRENNEMAN: I think sometimes when people talk to us about things, we're forming in our mind an answer instead of really listening to that person. And I know I have found myself doing that in my life.

[39:47] STEPHEN PAGEL: One of the things I enjoy is listening to sometimes the debate in different interviews is when the interview asks a question and they're already giving a prepared response. And I'm like, you didn't even think about, you know, that if I hear that a lot, that sort of dings it negatively. But yeah, and I did some friends while talking, they're going, oh, you're doing that ask the next question thing. And I go, yes, I am. Because I'm not really sure I understand. Like I said, I repeat some things because I'm not sure I grasp that. So that's the only way I'm going to learn is, you know, to do that.

[40:22] MONA BRENNEMAN: Right. I think that's what helps, is to have that open mind. And not everyone has that open mind to ask and listen without forming that judgment.

[40:37] STEPHEN PAGEL: One side thing, when I was in third grade, my senior would come in and do a religion class once a month. And after the second month, I didn't know at the time, but he had requested that I not attend the religion class because I would ask him questions because I read the Bible and I would ask him questions about the Bible and he would just get very upset at me. And I thought. I mean, because when I was interested, the part of the beginning is where it said, the sons of God looked down upon the earth, saw the daughters of men, came down upon the earth, mated with the dollar, and a third race was born upon the planet. And so I said, okay, I know there's humans and there's giants. What's the third race? And that was the one that was. He said, no, I don't want to ever have a discussion with him. And I was really disappointed because that interested me. You know, things like that.

[41:32] MONA BRENNEMAN: Yeah, so, absolutely. I think the Bible is very complex and there's a lot of the things I don't understand about the Bible. And you would think that someone who's teaching a religion class would welcome those questions for curiosity, for learning purposes.

[41:49] STEPHEN PAGEL: I don't think he was used to teaching a class to kids. He mainly did adults, I don't think, because kids, we ask all sorts of things.

[41:57] MONA BRENNEMAN: Kids are very open. But you think about it, if he shut you down, that's not really going to make you want to explore that again? At least not with him.

[42:08] STEPHEN PAGEL: Okay. Do you want to pick a question or you want me to.

[42:14] MONA BRENNEMAN: I'll ask you. Okay, so what. What are some incorrect assumptions that you think people make about you?

[42:32] STEPHEN PAGEL: A lot of times when they find out I'm gay, there have people that have then decided I cannot be anywhere near their children. And I'm like, didn't even discuss. Didn't even. It's just I'm not allowed next to their kids. And I've learned. The first couple of times, I was like, sort of. And they're like, no, that's where they're at. And for me to challenge them is not going to help the situation at all. And then there. I've had the reverse happen where that started out. And then one time, I mean, I actually had a mother say, my son's babysitter, something's happened. Do you mind coming over and spending about four hours with him? Because I have this work I have to do. And I was like, okay. And there was an initial, am I being set up? I said, no, and I did. And then she talked to me afterwards. She goes, you're very, very different than I expected. And I was like, okay, someone got educated. You know, a lot of them assume I'm going to be a flaming queen because they watch, you know, they hear RuPaul's drag. Do you ever. And I was like, no, though. You've heard of Rocky Horror Picture Show? I did perform Frankenfooter in Rocky Horror Picture Show.

[43:48] MONA BRENNEMAN: Okay.

[43:52] STEPHEN PAGEL: One particular incident with that is I got a phone call about 6, 7 o'clock on a Sunday morning. And I picked up the phone and said, hey, mom, how you doing? She goes, how do you know it was me? I go, nobody calls me at this time. She said, have you seen the paper? And I was like, no. And she hung up. And I'm like, okay, go find a paper. And I'm thumbing through in the timeout section, I'm looking at it, and all of a sudden I fold it out and I go, that's a really good picture of me. Yep. I knew I got interviewed the night before. I didn't realize they were taking pictures.

[44:23] MONA BRENNEMAN: Wow.

[44:24] STEPHEN PAGEL: So I talked to her and she goes, and what do you think they're going to say tomorrow when you go into school to teach? I go, don't know. So I walked in, walked immediately over, got there early, immediately over to principal's office. She goes, oh, yeah, he's waiting for you. And I sit down and he goes, saw the Paper. And then he looked at me and he goes, I see a lot of kids already in school with it, so let me be the first. Would you autograph this for me? And I did. And he goes, be prepared. There's gonna be a lot of questions. And so they did. And they were like, do you. I mean, how do you perform? Da da da da da. But it was all. They. Everybody that talked to me was really cool. They were actually excited. Oh, we have. We have a teacher that does Rocky Rock Picture Show. You know, in fact, the God kids and their kids, we're all going in two weeks because the ortheum's having it, you know, so I've had both extremes with that. Most people are just totally cool one way or the other. But, yeah, I've had both extremes with that, and one's a lot more enjoyable than the other.

[45:29] MONA BRENNEMAN: Sure.

[45:34] STEPHEN PAGEL: Let's see. She loaded me up on one type of question here, so I'll pick one. Was there a moment when you felt misunderstood by people who have a different political belief from you?

[45:59] MONA BRENNEMAN: There was a situation years ago. It was really a family situation. Not my immediate family, but some extended family. And they were very much Democrats. They fell on that other side. And I, again, very. I'm a very moral person. So I line up, have lined up more with Republican side. You know, if you were to put Democrat and Republican in front of me, and I didn't know who was who. They neither had any name. I would still fall on one side. That is my morals and values and the Republican. And anyway, we had a conversation about abortion, which is a hot topic very much. And I told her that I would never vote for someone who was for abortion because I believe that's killing babies. And she got really upset with me. She's like, well, I would never vote for blah, blah. And, you know, I said that, okay. You know, it's okay that you feel differently. It's okay that I feel differently. But, you know, we just kind of had a little bit of a tough conversation in those moments and didn't stay mad at each other, but it was a little bit tense for a little bit.

[47:18] STEPHEN PAGEL: Good, good.

[47:19] MONA BRENNEMAN: This was several years ago that that happened. So. So I'll ask you a question. Not sure I want to stay on politics, but tell me something that. Tell me something that you. That's your greatest achievement in life.

[47:51] STEPHEN PAGEL: Greatest achievement of life. Actually, it was when I had a very dear good friend in New York who was an artist. In fact, he did album cover for the Rolling Stone. He did work for Star Wars, I mean, and he was also into science fiction fantasy. And we were both upset over what was going on in the direction and out of the blue decided we were going to start a science fiction fantasy independent publishing house. Not a little, not a small press that just dinks around, but and found some people to support us on doing that. His wife was like, okay, this sounds cool. And a ton of time and effort went into that and we launched it and I knew several authors and they put out the word that we knew what we were doing. And there were a couple of major New York Times best selling authors that got in touch with me and said, we've got a book we want to publish and New York houses won't do it. I'm like, okay, let me read it. And then I had one author get in touch with me and say, I have this awesome book, but the lead character wears glasses. And the New York house said they will not put her on the COVID with glasses because if there's glasses on the COVID people won't read it. And I'm like, send it to me. And so we did multiple award winning books. And so it was like awesome living the life of what I was doing. And I got to go to the people I met and I said, he did stuff his. Every now and then his wife would shoo us away from the table and then we would come back later and he goes, why do you do that? And she goes, because we're at a convention with a bunch of boys and I'm hot. So I always tell them if they're gonna stand here and talk to me, they have to buy a book because you'll come back and I haven't sold any books and you'll be upset. That's how I sell books. And I was like, fine with me.

[49:59] MONA BRENNEMAN: Right? That's awesome.

[50:01] STEPHEN PAGEL: Yeah. So that was it. Oh, yeah. Okay. Was I who you expected me to be?

[50:11] MONA BRENNEMAN: You know, yes and no.

[50:14] STEPHEN PAGEL: Okay.

[50:15] MONA BRENNEMAN: You know, a little bit, yes. But I didn't know what to expect, honestly. So what about. What about you?

[50:26] STEPHEN PAGEL: Both the same. I wasn't sure, based a little bit on your religion, if I would be accepted. Because if not, that could make this go. But you've listened, we've talked, and I think you've paid attention. And so that is like the best I can ask for from meeting anybody and talking to them for an hour, you know?

[50:47] MONA BRENNEMAN: Yeah.

[50:49] STEPHEN PAGEL: Cool.

[50:49] MONA BRENNEMAN: Yeah, I've had fun.

[50:51] STEPHEN PAGEL: Yes, that is right. Yeah. This has just been a lot of fun. And we've disagreed and as far as I know. Arguments or no bristling. Nothing. So now we got to convince. How do we convince the other 99.99 in whatever percent of America to do that?

[51:07] MONA BRENNEMAN: Right. That may be a hard one.

[51:11] STEPHEN PAGEL: It's a challenge. We'll have to think about that.

[51:14] MONA BRENNEMAN: I think that's why this is called one step. Right. Putting different people together who are from different backgrounds, different livelihoods, and that's how you change America as one person at a time.

[51:28] STEPHEN PAGEL: Yep.

[51:28] MONA BRENNEMAN: Right.

[51:29] STEPHEN PAGEL: Very good.

[51:30] MONA BRENNEMAN: Kind of start in your own circle.

[51:33] STEPHEN PAGEL: Yes, it is.

[51:34] MONA BRENNEMAN: Yeah.

[51:37] STEPHEN PAGEL: I guess. Real quick, what are your hopes for the future?

[51:42] MONA BRENNEMAN: Hmm. My hopes to be happy. And my greatest hope is that my entire family accepts Christ because I want them to be in heaven with me.

[51:55] STEPHEN PAGEL: Okay. And my goddaughter and godson feel like you do. We have little talks every now and then. You know, I really wish a lot of other people could sit down and do what we've done and see the commonalities. That's a word. Yeah. We have instead of our differences, because you can build on anything. And I really think we've lost that communication, that ability to do that in a lot of ways.

[52:31] MONA BRENNEMAN: I agree. I watched the vice presidential debate the other day, and I was most impressed with both of them. They're very different individuals. They have very different beliefs, but yet they were respectful to each other the whole time. They were, and I liked that.

[52:50] STEPHEN PAGEL: Yes, they were, very much. And I wanted, like, see if they can do it. Why can't we do it? You know, because they are, quote, on opposite sides. One of them is going to help win the situation. Why can't we sit down and talk just like they did? It's not that hard, people.

[53:06] MONA BRENNEMAN: Exactly. Thank you for your time, Stephen.

[53:09] STEPHEN PAGEL: Yes, I enjoyed it. Thank you very much. Well, I did, too.