Sue Reel and Lisa Bickell

[00:02] LISA BICKELL: My name is Lisa Bickle. I'm 45 years old, and today is Monday, June 20, 2022. I'm in Missoula, Montana, and I'm here with Sue Real, who has been a colleague, mentor, and is now my friend.

[00:16] SUE REEL: And I'm Sue Reel My age is 66. This is Monday, June 20, 2022. We're in Missoula, Montana, and I'm here being interviewed by Lisa Bickle, and she's my colleague and friend.

[00:34] LISA BICKELL: Yeah, Sue, I was thinking about this for a long time because I was trying to remember when I was introduced to you, and I honestly couldn't remember. It's kind of like I've always known you, even though I'm sure at some point we were actually formally introduced. But looking back, I kind of feel like you were just always there, kind of woven throughout. I don't know the last, I'm not going to say how many years, but let's say it's been probably the most impactful portion of my career in nature education. And I'm just curious. Curious if you can remember being introduced to me or if you remember ever meeting me.

[01:14] SUE REEL: Well, Lisa, you've been around as long as I can remember, also with the Montana Natural History center. Center. But that's probably not true. You had folks before you, but you were the best and have been the best program manager. So I have to say that that was pretty much the heart I consider of our relationship professionally. But 20 years, do you think?

[01:44] LISA BICKELL: Well, not quite. I think I was there about 15, but it feels honestly like that.

[01:48] SUE REEL: Yeah.

[01:49] LISA BICKELL: But anyway, I think. I just think it was pretty funny that I just don't remember meeting you. I just remember always knowing you anyway, I'm sure at some point, I think I. Maybe at a board meeting or. I don't remember what role you played when I first started, but what was your first?

[02:12] SUE REEL: Just, I'm trying to think, were you program manager right away or did you do programming? How would we have met? At the very beginning?

[02:22] LISA BICKELL: When I first started, I was a youth programs coordinator in 2004.

[02:25] SUE REEL: Okay. And then eventually, maybe that was it, with kids, our kids, my kids, and some other programs, we could have met right away.

[02:35] LISA BICKELL: Yeah, yeah. But eventually, at some point, you just became a mentor to me. And then, I think, eventually became a partner, working through programs, developing programs together. And then I've just, over time, I think, as I left the organization and then even began to work with you in different programs outside of your organization. It's just been fun to get to know you as a friend.

[03:01] SUE REEL: Yeah, that's wonderful.

[03:02] LISA BICKELL: I'm glad to chat with you today.

[03:04] SUE REEL: Yeah, I think that's one of the neat things about what we were doing, is we were building a community of like minded folks in nature education through a lot of different partnerships, through schools and organizations. Because I worked for the US Forest Service pretty much when I first met you for most of the time at the Montana Natural History center. Is that one of your questions?

[03:32] LISA BICKELL: That was actually, and that was going to ask you is can you tell me a little bit about your educational background and what you did in your career prior to becoming involved at the Montana natural history center or even as you just became involved?

[03:48] SUE REEL: Yeah, I mean, it is kind of interesting. I got a wildlife biology degree from the University of Montana, and I was an older student, so I had been working for about ten years. Then I graduated and was lucky enough to get on as a full time permanent employee with Lolo National Forest here in Missoula, Montana, for the forest service. And my job was kind of unusual. It was called wildlife interpretation and education. It wasn't your typical job for the agency. And I had a kind of unusual, what could I say? Mission. And actually part of that mission, Washington, kind of dovetailed into helping found the Montana Natural History center way back almost 30 years ago, 91. So then I had only started two years before that. So it really was, I kind of look at the career, my own professional career in the forest service, which is paralleling with the building of the Montana natural history, did not realize that.

[05:01] LISA BICKELL: That's amazing.

[05:02] SUE REEL: Yeah.

[05:03] LISA BICKELL: As you look back, what was it that drew you into conservation education work or nature education work in general? What pulled you in that direction?

[05:12] SUE REEL: You know, it's so funny. It's like our favorite question to ask people, certainly in our business of nature education and conservation. And there's two things that stand out for me about what happened. For me, the aha moments is I, myself, a third generation nature nut, and my grandfather kind of got my mother into it and my mother got me into it. And we fed birds in Chicago, suburb of Chicago out there. And I just remember winter mornings with beautiful cardinals and bluebirds and even quail underneath our bird feeder after a big snowstorm. And just something that I always kind of, it was a touchstone for me as a kid. I kid, I was always outdoors. And then the other thing is, I remember having a social studies class in middle school, and they asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up. And I said I wanted to be a conservationist, so who knows? So I got all these pamphlets from the National Park Service and put it in a little binder and I still have that. It's like, I guess it worked, you know? How about you?

[06:28] LISA BICKELL: You know, I would say somewhat similar, I think when I was a kid, I had, I grew up in the woods in south Florida, and we just were outside a lot. And I had parents that always took us camping. And even, honestly, even visiting Disney World, we never got hotels. And I don't know that it was because my parents, I mean, they did love camping, but it was probably because we were trying to save money, but we'd sleep in a tent at Disney World. And I remember traveling out west when I was probably twelve and going to Yosemite and thinking that I would really like to figure out how to live in Yosemite. I thought the only way you could do that is probably to be a park ranger. And so somehow I just decided that I had to be in forestry. And I think I did a summer camp in forestry. And I thought, I don't really think I like forestry. And so actually, I decided I met somebody who was in wildlife biology and I thought maybe wildlife biology is what I would do. So I moved to Montana.

[07:33] SUE REEL: Wow.

[07:34] LISA BICKELL: I went to the University of Montana and actually took a class with your husband, doctor hutto, and made it through wildlife biology. But then somewhere in the middle of that decided that actually education was something. My mom was a teacher, and I was more interested in connecting with people and helping people to, I think, understand about the world around them, I think, and make that human connection rather than the research. I think the research was interesting, but I'd rather be more engaged with people, I think, than the fieldwork. But it was the same thing. And I think it's, and you know, this, I think in the, we always talk about, like, the magic ingredients are time spent outdoors and adult mentors that encourage that relationship. And it's a theme that just kind of always comes up when you ask people that question.

[08:29] SUE REEL: Yeah.

[08:30] LISA BICKELL: And I find that fascinating.

[08:32] SUE REEL: That, and if you, and that's so interesting is if you have family members that are outdoorsy, then it, there's that quick, natural, young exposure. But I think one of the reasons we did put Montana Natural History center together was for those families that didn't, they didn't have mentors or their parents were busy or hadn't been exposed to nature that much. So we wanted to help through schools and summer programs and how, any way we could think of after school, any ways we could think that we could make that nature connection early because we'd had it, and it meant a lot to us as young people growing up. It was like my best friend being in nature, you know, and either I was reading a book or I was one of those nerds, you know, reading a book or out playing on the beach or something, but a lot of kids don't have that access, so.

[09:28] LISA BICKELL: Yeah. So tell me more about those early days of volunteering with the Montana Natural History center. And, you know, what do you remember about those fledgling days and what made you want to be part of starting this. Yeah, this effort?

[09:44] SUE REEL: Well, let's see. As I said, it started kind of when I started my career with a forest service and just me. I mean, I was the only game in town, and there were a few others, but I realized that the capacity and the need was so much more than I could provide to. So you find out that you have to have a partnership of some kind to be able to really reach out to young people and adults about nature in a lot of ways. So it was just kind of a melding of individuals that had like minded interests. And the very beginning it was with the University of Montana's Bird and Mammal Museum and also the National Wildlife Federation and the lolo. We got together and we'd put an exhibit booth at the western Montana Fair, county Fair on wolves, of all things, back in the day, when wolves were just being reintroduced to Yellowstone. So it was informative. It was always the base. The whole idea was to be mostly educational, not activistic, but just getting people connected. And so anyway, that was kind of the first project. And from that exhibit and working with those individuals, Bob Hutto and for the University museum and Pat Tucker from Nashaway Federation, the three of us kind of said, wow, we need more of this. So what should we do? Oh, let's start a nature center. You know, we were young and naive and didn't really have any idea what a big thing we were trying to take on, because starting a 501 is a big job and tough to do. Right? Not many make it, certainly not with longevity, but I think the reason it made it is because it was a need that there were no nature centers in Montana at the time, and there was a lot of interest in nature education and nature, but there wasn't any one place to go. So it was just through a lot of interest and partnerships. And we sort of started at the university in a closet in the Jeanette Rankine building with a volunteer, and just, I think, what was a good idea that we had? And we had many faculty and people from the community together. But one of the things we always felt was we needed programs to prove that we had some high quality ideas in programming to help kids connect to nature. So that's when we started. All these kind of wild programs are still going, like field notes for the radio, Montana public Radio. We produced curriculum trunks on all kinds of critters, from wolves to songbirds. We did summer camps. That was real important. We had a lot of kids in the summer and they're not in school, and they need to be doing something. Parents need some help, and that's still going strong. One of the best programs that I think the center offers. And then you and I started. That's how I think we really got close was this visiting naturalist in the schools.

[13:22] LISA BICKELL: Yeah. So that, you know, and it's, I'm glad you brought that up because I would say that is, that was pretty pivotal in the organization's history. And it is exactly when I stepped in. I was hired in 2004, and I remember coming in in July and basically being dropped in and finishing summer camp. Like, here's summer camp, and you must finish that. And then here's the scaffolding for visiting naturalists. And I remember thinking what a truly unique program it was, because this program unlike anything I'd ever seen. And I had at this point, I had taught environmental education in Minnesota, and I had been in Washington state teaching in some, I would say pretty great or working for some pretty great organizations. But what the Montana Natural History center was going to do was work with fourth grade classrooms only, which was somewhat limiting. However, we were going to go into these fourth grade classrooms once a month, every month of the school year. And so, you know, this idea that you need to give a kid time in the nature and a mentor, like, that's exactly what we're going to do.

[14:41] SUE REEL: Right.

[14:42] LISA BICKELL: And I just had never seen anything like it. And so I just, I remember getting in there and we had the scaffolding. So we had, here's a structure. You're going to go into these classrooms once a month. And I think we only had maybe 20 to 25 classes, so it wasn't that many. I think now today, what is it, 1617 years later, they're working with somewhere around 50 to 60 classes every single month of the school year. So the program is thriving, but, you know, not as many classes. I think it was myself and one other naturalist, Charles.

[15:18] SUE REEL: I remember.

[15:19] LISA BICKELL: Yeah, we had, you know, here's the program. You have to write the curriculum as you go. You have to buy all the supplies. You have to figure out how to train all the volunteers.

[15:28] SUE REEL: Yeah.

[15:28] LISA BICKELL: And we're gonna take them on two field trips throughout the year.

[15:31] SUE REEL: All day field trips?

[15:31] LISA BICKELL: All day field trips. So we had to do one in October and one. And actually, I think it was in winter when we were doing our field trips at the beginning. Now they do them in the spring, or. No, I'm sorry. We didn't do an October field trip. We did a January field trip. Yeah, spring field trip.

[15:45] SUE REEL: So that's. That was huge.

[15:47] LISA BICKELL: That was huge.

[15:48] SUE REEL: And I think what the reason it worked, it was because one of the things, it's great to get kids outside, but for them to really be able to build it into part of their lives, they have to understand it. And then one of the problems was, it's overwhelming for teachers to take kids in the woods. Say, take 30 kids in the woods, and it's kind of a crazy event if you don't have mentors and helpers and have curriculum. And so I think that whole structure, those nine visits and two of them field trips and there every month, built that kind of relationship with the classroom and the center and the teacher. And you're teaching the teacher how to do these things that they could do on their own, too, which was. That was a perfect and obviously successful cause. It's still going and growing.

[16:43] LISA BICKELL: Yeah. To me, that was amazing. I think we'd have, in between visits, the kids would see things, and they'd come, and they'd tell you when you walked in the door, and by the last day, the kids were giving you hugs, and you would establish those relationships with the teachers. And over time, the teachers would start expanding upon their curriculum, and so you'd start to see those relationships build and that confidence in the teacher to do things, do more things than they had been doing. And now the curriculum is reaching rural classrooms. It's on the Flathead reservation. It's actually, in the last few years, it's actually even been developed so that it can be taught virtually so through distance learning, so it can reach communities that are well beyond Missoula, which is pretty amazing. And it's gone through many iterations since I've been there. In fact, my youngest son just finished fourth grade, and he just finished the visiting naturalist in the schools program. And he was asking me how much of the curriculum is the same. He didn't use that word, I'm sure, but how many of the activities are the same?

[17:52] SUE REEL: Did you teach it like this?

[17:53] LISA BICKELL: Did I teach it like this, mom? And I said, well, you know, there might be one lesson that's the same. It's had so many fantastic staff go.

[18:01] SUE REEL: Through it, but it's always a little different depending on who is teaching.

[18:06] LISA BICKELL: Yeah.

[18:07] SUE REEL: What a great program. Fundamental for. I wish we could do it more than fourth grade or third grade as we started, too, but that's what all the other programming's so great about because it expands it. We even work with adults.

[18:22] LISA BICKELL: Yeah, I was thinking about. Because we started or we ran a few years of the force for the classroom together.

[18:31] SUE REEL: Yeah, that was fantastic. I thought. I'm thinking at the end of my career, the last, I don't know how many years, I would say it was at least a half a dozen years that we were running that together. And it was really rewarding to work with teachers. I think I found they were so much fun. They were there because I wanted to be, and it was exciting on both ways for us, helping them with science curricula and ideas on how to get out. They would develop the curriculum, which I learned a lot from them about. It was a great program, and I think they used it hopefully for the rest of their careers. That's one of the neat things about teaching teachers, is they multiply your effort because once you've taught a teacher, they can continue to teach the kids.

[19:27] LISA BICKELL: Right.

[19:28] SUE REEL: Yeah. You enjoyed that, too, I take it.

[19:31] LISA BICKELL: That was. Well, and I think the reverberations and seeing the teachers come back and I think especially, you know, just a few of them, I remember the ones that were so new to nature based education or place based education that had never. Well, some of them had never been camping before.

[19:51] SUE REEL: Yeah.

[19:53] LISA BICKELL: And how they kind of took to the, the program and then those were the ones that kind of kept coming back to us for resources and activities and kept bringing their students back to the center for art and science lessons, and they really built a relationship and they became the mentors for their students and really expanded on it in deep ways.

[20:17] SUE REEL: It's great stuff.

[20:18] LISA BICKELL: Yeah. But, gosh, yeah. I mean, there's a, I mean, between master naturalist for adults that connect adults with the vast majority of, well, letting.

[20:31] SUE REEL: Them to be students again. Right. And become a naturalist, which some folks have a little training, but we also get college students, too, who want to be certified. And so I think that's another relationship that's been developed with the center, and the university is trying to help young college students find their way and get internships and take classes and work for the center. Think of all the people that have worked for MNHC a lot. 30 years. That's good.

[21:09] LISA BICKELL: Yeah. So when you look back at the original vision for the center was it was a nature center that served all ages. Part of the original plan, was it predominantly for children, and then it expanded to include adult audiences, or was it.

[21:33] SUE REEL: I think it was always for everybody. I think one of the things that's pretty interesting was students, grade school students love nature, and it's just a natural. And you've also got this structure that you can go into a classroom or take kids out into the woods. So that's kind of got the system set up. But I think it's been real important to work with all ages. That's more of informal education, which you need to be, which I think Natural History center's done well, is you've got to be entertaining and fun and interesting to get adults to participate. Go to a lecture or become a master naturalist. You have to be really good to be able to get adults out of their routine or working or whatever to participate. So I think that's a. A little more of a challenge, but can be really rewarding, too, versus the kids, which they're just hungry for nature.

[22:46] LISA BICKELL: So one of the lesson, or one of the workshops, I guess, or even, I guess, adult learning programs that's offered by the natural History center that I've run into you the most frequently at lately are the journaling workshops, the field journal, mostly the ones that focus on illustrating nature, predominantly led by Nancy Seiler. And I'm just curious, what draws you to nature journaling? Nature journaling and illustration.

[23:21] SUE REEL: That's really a good question. It's so funny because Dick and I, my husband, the ornithologist, retired ornithology professor, we try to teach people bird watching. And I was just thinking the other day how journaling and drawing actually gets you to stop and look closely. This is what we do when we nature journal is we really pay attention, not just clicking things off a bird list, per se, but would look at that bird for as long as we can and take notes and figure out what it's doing and where it is and how it's moving. And all of those observations get you to be better skilled if that's what you want in understanding nature. And that's what's really that art. It's kind of a different kind of learning, that observation, art exposure, that I think is really rewarding. Even though you don't have to be fabulous artists taking the time, it's almost meditative to do it, don't you think?

[24:30] LISA BICKELL: Yeah.

[24:32] SUE REEL: And then there are a lot of folks that are very artistic and it just blossoms by taking the time. It's a practice. So, yeah, that's where I would be today right now, being out there nature journaling during this interview. So, yeah, that's something adults can do. Kids also, of course, you can do that for the rest of your life, be a nature journaling person. Yeah.

[25:01] LISA BICKELL: Some of my most early memories of the Montana Natural History center programming are of nature journaling workshops. So that's been a consistent thread throughout that organization's history is that close observation of things in nature and different ways of recording. And I think that's been woven throughout. Even the visiting naturalist in the school's fourth grade program is observing nature and recording nature, or you're recording your observations as an artist, scientist, and a writer is deeply woven into the curriculum because there are many ways of knowing and many ways of observing and understanding nature, and we can value them in different ways.

[25:46] SUE REEL: Yeah. And, you know, I was just thinking when you're talking about what it does for you, but it's also this element of science and learning about nature and being kind of detectives, that's kind of what we started when we did the visiting naturalist. It was kind of nature detectives is that kind of critical thinking component. It's not like, oh, isn't that a pretty bird? But it's like, why is that birdhouse red? Or why is it on that spruce tree? Or that whole kind of observations lead to questions which maybe lead to figuring out why and what they're doing and why. It's pretty. It's kind of a. It's kind of hidden within that nature study that I think the natural history center does really well.

[26:35] LISA BICKELL: Yeah.

[26:35] SUE REEL: Did you find that with your students when you worked with them in the classroom?

[26:39] LISA BICKELL: Yeah.

[26:40] SUE REEL: Their curiosity, I mean, that's one of the things that's critical with nature study, really. It's not just telling kids what is out there, but having them ask questions about it.

[26:53] LISA BICKELL: Yeah. And I think that was the foundation of a lot of the curriculum across even the adult programs, and everything was just the asking questions and making observations and not just providing the information, but wondering and then welcoming the different ways of knowing. So, you know, there's lots of ways of gathering information.

[27:21] SUE REEL: Right.

[27:22] LISA BICKELL: Yeah.

[27:22] SUE REEL: Well, and then one thing we haven't talked about is just how the center developed exhibits. Right.

[27:29] LISA BICKELL: Yeah.

[27:30] SUE REEL: So that some folks that aren't in a classroom could be exposed to some of these things. In the wonderful exhibit halls that are now available for visitors to the state and families who come, there's a place to go which wasn't always there. I mean, as I say, we started in closets, so it's a pretty special thing to have a building that looks so neat and has so many neat.

[27:57] LISA BICKELL: Things in it, which showcases, you know, a lot of the University of Montana's collections and.

[28:03] SUE REEL: Right. There's that collection.

[28:05] LISA BICKELL: Yeah. Zoological museum and Paleontology and all kinds of stuff.

[28:09] SUE REEL: Yeah. Right. It's not just birds.

[28:11] LISA BICKELL: Yeah, not just birds, but many birds.

[28:13] SUE REEL: It's like, a lot of birds.

[28:15] LISA BICKELL: A lot of birds.

[28:15] SUE REEL: A lot of cool other things, like mountain lions, dinosaurs.

[28:19] LISA BICKELL: Dinosaurs.

[28:20] SUE REEL: I know. It's really cool. Yeah. Yeah. And so that's, you know, if you asked, you know, why. Why do it and what do you think about it? And, you know, it's hard to. We all work, and then we. I've been retired now for six years, and you kind of have your career. But one of the things that I think was most rewarding for me is to start the Montana Natural History center and then to have it continue, because it's really hard to do. I mean, it's hard to keep a nonprofit going and growing. It's a huge accomplishment. And there's been so many people besides myself, and I was just kind of. I was like a flame or start. But all those staff and board members that worked hard. Cause they were passionate about it, too. I mean, it must be the right thing to do because there's a lot of people who are passionate about it.

[29:26] LISA BICKELL: I think about that, too, when you go in there, and it's just thinking about when my son asked me about the lesson plans, and you can look at the whole scope of the fourth grade program, and you can. I mean, I can see where decades or a decade plus of staff and volunteers have had impact on that program. And it's just, it, you know, that organization, over, well, 30 plus years, has been influenced by so many different people.

[30:01] SUE REEL: Right.

[30:02] LISA BICKELL: And, you know, everybody has just kind of left a little impact, you know.

[30:06] SUE REEL: Here and there, a little piece of themselves.

[30:07] LISA BICKELL: Yeah. And that's. That's kind of, I think, what, you know, just when you think of grassroots, I think that's right. That organization. And I've, you know, I've had the opportunity to work for lots of organizations that have had a lot of resources, and that organization has always been sometimes held together by tape and string and whatever weird stuff we had in the back storage room and the things we never threw away. I remember when there was burlap that would hide the base of our weird specimens in the exhibit hall because we just couldn't afford much else I know. And so, yeah, over the years, we've done so many things to make it what it is, and it just, it kind of keeps the little pieces, and it's the people, I think, more than anything else, that have made it right.

[30:54] SUE REEL: Continue and you just feel like it's the right thing to do or it's a good idea because it has, it keeps going and it keeps growing, and more people get involved and, you know, the programming gets bigger. And when things were slowed down because of COVID the staff stayed on and they created this incredible online material that went national, if not international. So I think there's this, like, two levels. It was a great idea that was done well, and that's those two things, high quality and, and a big need and keeps it going. A knock on wood. You know, our grandkids will be here taking classes or working, or working there at, which would be wonderful.

[31:54] LISA BICKELL: When you look back at why you became involved in the foundational work at the Montana Natural History center and you see it now, what do you see, or what do you see in the organization now that you. That you envisioned? And how is it the same? How is it different?

[32:18] SUE REEL: Well, I guess, you know, that's a good question. I've stepped back. I was on the board for many, many, many years, and then I step back and still participate. But coming back now, it's so awesome to see there's so many people I don't know. I mean, it keeps going, and there's all these young people that are taking the reins or even having their own families. I remember that was a big deal because I had my children when I started the organization, I was pregnant, the first whatever. It felt like ten years of the organization, and somehow I had all the energy to continue to do that. And my work and volunteer work at the natural History center, and that's critical. So I see a lot of young faces and enthusiastic, passionate people continuing to take it on, and then I see a lot of older folks that are going to make sure it happens with fundraising. And I think the stability that I see is wonderful to see that it isn't a shoestring anymore. It's working on an endowment, and it has had angel donors. It has its own building. Yeah. I can't think of anything that hasn't done better personally. There's a lot of nonprofits in Missoula, and we have some really good foundational non profits. But I'm glad that the center, Montana Natural History center, is one of them. So, yeah, it's a great organization. And that's because of people like you, Lisa.

[33:54] LISA BICKELL: No, thanks. Well, I have one last question for you. You know, we talked a little bit about, you know, those stories that, you know, why we get involved in the work that we do. You know, this idea that there's something that draws us to conservation work as a whole. And you and I, somehow through separate paths, came into the world of conservation education or outdoor or environmental or nature education. But, you know, here we are living in a world where, gosh, there's fire and there's flood and there's drought and there's all these things happening. But still, I think there's opportunity to find hope. And I guess I would just love to know from you what gives you hope?

[34:52] SUE REEL: Nature. That's it. I am so grateful that I have this nature connection because when I unfortunately pay too much attention to the politics, the news and so on, that I have to get this reality check that that's not all there is in the world and that there's this wonderful planet that is sustaining us all and we all need to love it and protect it. And it's kind of an obligation, a responsibility. And when I know things get too tough, I just go out in nature and know that it'll do fine without me, too, which gives you that kind of comfort, that there's something that's always there. You just have to take time and be in it. That's my kind of spiritual charge, is to be in nature with the birds and butterflies and just the whole water and trees and wind. Yeah. So that, it's a selfish thing as much as anything else. It keeps me going.

[36:10] LISA BICKELL: And you, I would say it's probably, you know, when I look at my daughter, she's very much, she's twelve and she's very much drawn to social media and the mall and the clothes that she's going to wear that day and how she looks. But I did what I could to kind of give her those foundational experiences that I thought were really important. And I noticed that she'll still try to pick up slugs at age twelve. And then I'll take her to the beach and she'll still insist on rolling in the sandheen, get it in her hair. And just like lately, in the last probably four months, she keeps insisting that she's going to be a botanist. Oh, awesome. And she came up with that on her own. And I don't know, but when I was her age, I wanted to work in Yosemite and it got me to where I am here so I don't know. But it gives me hope that even though there are a lot of distractions that may send her in lots of different directions, that maybe she got the foundational things that she needed to kind of keep her a little bit grounded so that she'll find her way back to those things. And now I just got to work on the other one.

[37:36] SUE REEL: I don't think that'll be.

[37:38] LISA BICKELL: Sure doesn't get lost in the world of Minecraft or something.

[37:40] SUE REEL: Both my boys, in their late twenties are both biologists, so it's not like we were, you know, were successful because reproduce biologists. But it is gratifying that they kind of want to take the baton.

[37:55] LISA BICKELL: Yeah.

[37:55] SUE REEL: And go do good somewhere in the world with nature and other people just know that.

[38:04] LISA BICKELL: Yeah. You passed it on a little bit.

[38:06] SUE REEL: All right. Yeah.

[38:08] LISA BICKELL: And I think that.

[38:09] SUE REEL: Yeah, that's good, isn't it?

[38:11] LISA BICKELL: Yeah.

[38:12] SUE REEL: Congratulations, Lisa.

[38:14] LISA BICKELL: Thanks. We'll see how it works out. We'll get back together in about ten minutes.

[38:18] SUE REEL: Yeah. Doctor Reid, about four years when she's 16. We'll see how you do it. Awesome.

[38:26] LISA BICKELL: Well, thanks for.

[38:28] SUE REEL: Yeah, well, thank you for thinking about this.

[38:31] LISA BICKELL: Thanks for helping start the Montana Natural History center because it gave me something really great to do for a very long time.

[38:37] SUE REEL: Well, my pleasure. Me too. Great. Thanks.