Susan Amussen and Diane Amussen

00:00 Okay.

00:04 You can start.

00:07 My name is Diane amussen and I'm 89 years old and today is Wednesday, February 12th, 2020. And we're in book location. Where in Fresno, California.

00:23 And I'm being interviewed by my daughter Susan.

00:29 I'm Susan amussen. I'm 65. It's Wednesday, February 12th 2020 in Fresno, California. I'm here with Diane amussen who is my mother.

00:43 And so Mom, I've always wanted to do this with you. So you didn't know this is like one of my secret dreams and when when I told John and Gretchen my siblings that I was doing this they both had questions and Gretchen started talking about your activism in the interracial youth group in the 1940s and John asked about your changing careers, and I was interested in all your activism and Community organizing and so I just thought when I asked you you said well I talk about organizing the building and so maybe you want to start with talking about when you started organizing the building.

01:39 Actually, I think I should back up a little bit and say that I learned we were talking about Manhattan in the 1960s.

01:56 When you became public school students, I became a Public School parent and that's where that's the real training ground. You know, I heard the president talked about the government schools and referring to Public Schools public schools are not government schools and the parents make all the difference and I learned from the very Savvy parents who taught me about going site selection meetings in New York and

02:31 Whatever whatever if we did, so I learned a lot.

02:36 In the process we encounter the Lenox Hill Lenox Hill Neighborhood. Well the neighborhood house. That's what it was in them and they were

02:52 Usually on the other side of us was we were talking about site selection for schools and they were talking about housing but I learn from them and that are building.

03:04 Became board up and people began baby. I'm putting tin on the windows. I went to Lenox Hill Neighborhood House and asked if they would come and talk to the telepaths and got them the tennis to come those who did, you know, I'm not saying everybody did but we had

03:26 We were part of

03:28 Three buildings big buildings. They were 10 buildings and all they were built Speculator.

03:39 I feel I know about Developers.

03:46 I see the president because

03:49 He's a developer developers of Developers.

03:56 You know what I found was that the tenants of our building and many of them are older. Most of them are older at least 1/2 pound.

04:06 By my standards older at 65 which is kind of a joke now. But anyway, but they were also mostly white mushrooms. They didn't know the systems that sort of thing. So I bet you know, it was it's one of those things when people are taking advantage of you gets me.

04:35 I don't know what it gets me. But if it makes you have you have that you have a strong sense of justice. But anyway, whatever it is. I didn't think it was right. No, so.

04:53 We began talking to the first it was very

04:58 Not much because not much was going on, but as more went on.

05:04 It became more and more and we began.

05:08 Meeting in a monthly way and the wife of the news dealer became our Trevor. This is pollock. She she was after every dime she could get to know them.

05:25 We have meetings in our Apartments as you know, and you were studying Russian at at school and you were talking to a George and lady who?

05:39 Well, that's what she was older than she was in the 80s and she had learned to read she said she her all her schooling was the Russian because Russian.

05:55 The Russians Ram Georgia. So so you got a chance to talk Russian and we learned something although I have to say I remember those conversations is very difficult because my Russian was not very good and hers was incredibly elegant elegant lady and you know, if I was to 16 year old who was not very elegant so led to another and we got involved with the community group, which is where the political connections were naturally and because we didn't have them and them

06:43 So we turned up at meetings when they said they were going to resume the empty lots which happened to be where we were living and

06:54 I remember saying at the Planning Commission, you know, ho ho they were zoning rezoning these empty lots of Broad in the tunnels and I said where the people who live in the empty box.

07:12 A year went by and they said they did the same thing and I said it was funny and people laughed the first time. It's not very funny now when a year later.

07:24 Self, you know

07:26 What's up with the New York City Planning Commission?

07:30 Guess yeah, cuz I remember speaking to them. Oh, yes, and remember that was the night when I spoke to them about.

07:38 You know you spoke to. Yeah, I I quoted the Joni Mitchell song They paved paradise put up a parking lot zoning of the neighborhood, you know, but and it's funny cuz I go back to the neighborhood and it's now it was then Brownstones and 6 story buildings. And now it's all this tall apartment building. Yeah, it's it's we knew it was going to go right? Well anyways.

08:13 That was my introduction. So how did you say, you know, I know at the end you had negotiated a deal that protected the tenants in some way and how did that even start? I mean that I mean I kind of know the end of the story, but I don't know the beginning.

08:38 Well, I don't really know the beginning either. I think that's some of it came about because the head of the neighborhood organization red pepper to the he he had done a couple Times Square or whatever. So he had the political connections and he obviously did some talking and obviously we also made some noise, but I've and I'm not sure how it came about really back in The Mists of time, but you can't visit the idea was that the older people would be would have lifetime rent subsidies and would be relocated on the site and there was one building called The Alamo.

09:25 Apple developer that I negotiated with called at the Alamo. I mean via alimony.

09:33 So he did not like it well, but he also tried to lure me by saying he have a three-bedroom apartment safe for me someplace else, you know, he have something for me and he didn't and the all the time of to do cuz I told them is very interesting cuz nobody tipped my hand though. I was moving away. I mean I have concluded that was no room for me in, New York.

10:05 Am I think about it? But you know, it was a ramp somebody's going to die when they hear me but love it was $147 a month, but I'm about I could support you and the even the proposed.

10:21 Section 8

10:23 Rents would have been a lot for me cuz they required an extra bedroom because I have a sum as well as two doors can't have them in the same room, which of course I did was put a sleeping in the dining room.

10:42 So I couldn't afford it any of that. So I just figured I couldn't afford New York and New York and decided they didn't need me anymore.

10:51 Amanda and that made me think so I had to change my profession because I was in book publishing and New York is the real Center for book publishing. So

11:04 I do have to go someplace else am I about so I was Community organizer, which I really wasn't, you know, I mean I did it with a time when I'm not an organizer really and so anyway, or at least I don't think so.

11:21 So, you know that my question is where would I go?

11:27 Am I went to visit an author in Bemidji, Minnesota and we flew over Minneapolis.

11:37 And if you fly over Minneapolis what you see is three is likes. It's wonderful and here I came from New York City where you could barely see the sky.

11:48 Honda Sol

11:51 I thought well, I'll move to Minneapolis and then I began trying to find people.

11:57 New somebody in Minneapolis crime know anybody in Minneapolis and being in a New Yorkers. Somebody said to me when I got the job in Minneapolis. They said the why are you moving to Milwaukee? So I did?

12:19 Could get a job in Minneapolis and miraculously they paid my moving expenses, which is wonderful so we went there but it was you know, it was hard. That was air.

12:35 I think what nobody tells you that I've learned is that when you move when you're older, it's very hard to Merced. That was really hard. But I mean, I remember moving to New Haven when I was in my 30s or so and even though you know people had their lives set, yo, they have their patterns. So so

13:07 Anyway, but Minneapolis was in fact wonderful place for me, and I did not last long at the Developers.

13:18 Cuz I guess I am a community organizer and I could see you know, it was nothing.

13:28 It was it was terrible. You know when I would write him I thought of myself as a bee and my fault the bees are kamikaze.

13:39 Characters because when they sting you they die, so I figured I was writing these Kamikaze memos about various things, but they were so suspicious of me. They had decided that I was going to organize the opposition and do whatever. I don't know what they thought I was going to do. I really can't figure it out. But that's I mean they hired you first organized the tenant but then they thought that I was going to set up an office in the building something. I don't know what the hell I was going to do.

14:16 I don't think they they don't I don't think they knew what you were going to do. And I don't think they knew what they wanted. I think they had to have someone in that role is it when they wanted they want to tell about the cell but they didn't really want you to Advocate. Oh God. No anyways, so we'll see I moved there in about June and I met with the president.

14:48 I'm John's birthday and he drove outside of town. So nobody would see us. I mean you don't the developer in Minneapolis was

15:02 Very suspicious of everything so he he drove me out and I told him I wanted to leave and that I didn't want to live in there of those tall buildings anymore when you came for Christmas the ice along the floor, so

15:29 Like I told him that I wanted to live on the old properties.

15:34 He found us the little house and John and I moved there and I must say New Yorkers. We are we were.

15:44 And what we did most of the time in the beginning was just with the cats did we went in and out in and out the idea that we could just walk in and out and in and out hang up one piece of laundry when we go out, you know, it was such a treat. It was a wonderful place and the feel of course, I was unemployed for a year and a half and them but that was a wonderful time. It was I went to an alternative school and

16:18 Which accepted by life experience as well as my two years of college, but beforehand?

16:26 And so you and I graduated in the same month you graduated from Princeton and I graduated from Minnesota Metropolitan State University. I tell people all the time that we got her bachelor's degree the same year. Yes, you know and I think that it's one of the reasons I've always liked teaching adults truth, you know, I worked with a lot of adults and it's actually one of my gifts as a teacher so older

17:05 And it's just that I work well with older students. I mean not as many as when I was at Union 1, of course, all of them were older. So now that we're older is is relativism that I mean, they're not 18% of the students while the older students, you know are in their thirties and forties, but they're not 18 to 22 year olds. It does that when I went to to school it was one time. I went to a workshop and somebody who was there's got very Huffy on sale. I didn't know there going to be a student's here.

17:44 You know, she was really angry.

17:47 Hey, hey and that it doesn't matter how old you are or what your experience are when people look at you as you don't have that degree blah blah blah. That's a no. So anyway, I got my Master's and them.

18:05 I got a job.

18:08 Finding older people in the Red Light District of Washington DC which is kind of funny because

18:17 IPhone going to Washington for Cadets congressmen wearing nice clothes high heels teetering around them and being I don't know what none of those things for what they didn't make any sense to me. So I've been. Nobody was interested in me in that way, but I wasn't interested in them either. So so I was in the red light district and I started a mass and

18:48 I think what comes out of that because Emmaus.

18:52 Was a community organizer organization and we

18:57 We had a dreadful office. Most of the time didn't have heat just one room. And that was way back way way back in the building was back in the building and it was a big building of National City Christian church has huge building and of course it cost a mint to heat it and they didn't hate it. So we have a little heater in the place, but it was it was cold office and it was it was not a nice office, but it was a good office to go out front because you don't want to stay in it. Anyway, so we got talkin to people that's a long process and

19:38 One thing and another but the help the people who got the most helpful people for me with all them tears. I remember one volunteer who have been working in Africa and escorting potentates to officials and she told me that if you talk into an official they always want to talk to you if I'm if I bring an older person in they want to talk to me instead of the older person. So the secret is to look at the person Opus that you want them to talk to and not to look at them ever after after the interviewer. I'm looking at you right now thinking about this, you know, and obviously as your daughter, I've been watching you and observing you for my whole life.

20:34 You had to I had to and one of your gift is that you talk to people and you know, I'm going to think that was what connected your work in, New York.

20:45 As a parent in the PTA and like the 1968 School strike and the Tenant organizing and then in Minnesota and when you did a Celtic Haitian, I mean you once said to me while I'm I'm really an adult educator and that's what community organizers do is to educate help people see learn these things. So I was

21:11 If School of Ida's, I had a good friend named hat mailer. I remember her if she was she was wonderful. She was she knew all about for organizing volunteers volunteer person. She said she said what we were doing an addled education was what in the thirties they had done in social work, but social work has become, you know, credential authorized. Unfortunately. I'm so

21:41 When I was working with the Office on Aging in Washington.

21:46 They didn't think I was social worker so late. They said no you don't have to do that because I'm so sorry. You're not feeling social work. They're doing Outreach what they think I was doing talking to people and listening to them and figuring out what they had to do who they have to see, you know, I'm getting them to see them. I mean anywhere. Yeah, I know that's it's it's funny, but that's that's always been one of your talents. Well, the other thing was to figure out what it was they needed but I thought they had to go to the doctor or whatever. Usually the doctor the doctor is the keeper how to get them SSI and you know, because I remember you had lots you had especially older black women who'd worked for families and never contributed to Social Security because household employment was outside of the system.

22:45 And so these old ladies had no money and you got them SSI. Will I didn't know somebody else? No, I

22:59 I think there was some hard times and I'm going to mention one woman in the demo leave the horror stories out because frankly I was very welcomed into what was considered a very rough area less. So as time wore on but in the beginning Washington was rough

23:24 Pizza by idea of teetering around in high heels ever had been there, but the woman whom I really loved.

23:39 And her name was mrs. Knight.

23:45 Some of these women have sons who are alcoholic and she have one she had a great daughter-in-law, but she had the sum.

23:56 Did you see junior junior?

24:01 Did what he did anyway?

24:05 Ms. Is Knight's case, you know, she wasn't he wasn't very helpful, but

24:10 She lived in the White of mice apartment and she had a wonderful dog and she was totally bed bombed when I first met her. She had one leg amputated, but subsequently, she lost the other one and them.

24:26 And then of course, she really could hardly even she couldn't get out of bed and she you know talk about isolated.

24:34 Nobody came, you know, it was no need for nurses because or that maybe the nurses came once a week or something and she

24:46 She did what she had a carried, but she was alone when they've left and that was it. And when on weekends, of course, nothing happens on weekends, so we created a weekend Response Group.

25:03 Cuz this is life needed meals. We brought meals on weekends did things like that?

25:13 It was one Sunday when the volunteers came and she couldn't seem to be quite right but I think the volunteer thought that she would be okay after with a meal. I miss his night with smoker.

25:30 She smoked them.

25:33 She probably had a little stroke or something and she dropped the cigarette lighter bed.

25:41 I'm dumb.

25:47 That's what you don't like that took me 20 years even to talk about it, but

25:53 So I found out about it. I lived in the neighborhood to I heard fire engines and it was something.

26:00 It made me feel.

26:03 You know, I have some feeling and it was mrs. Lights building. Of course, would it be if I went and looked?

26:12 With the volunteer and of course, it was all charred.

26:16 And though

26:19 So that's all I know about that when I will say that we rescue the dog from home, but I do know that you thought it was important.

26:42 Prince I think was the name of her husband.

26:45 She apparently apparently she run an after-hours Club in Washington for years. That's how my Outreach in, New Hartford, New York.

27:00 So anyway, that's that's the story about.

27:05 Anyway, how do you go on for the from that you can't wait?

27:11 Go to something else. You know, what's

27:16 That organization I think was important because it was very much a part of the neighborhood. And if somebody wasn't feeling well and was acting funny we could just go and go go see them. They will make up a couple of blocks away the genius of the program which was full of by Arthur Fleming posted it. Nothing was more than 10 blocks away was with to census tracts only so we work flying around and so we walk there and we walked all over the place.

27:49 Random and people in buildings would tell you if somebody hadn't been seen right you got known?

27:57 It was a man of my building super said that he

28:05 The sky was kind of funny who kept kept dropping his pants. You know what everybody say would be horrified by that and so I went and met him and I went into his house and I Look to this icebox and there was nothing they are but glasses of water. He had no food and yes, I dropped his pants and they got attention the wrong, and proceeded with some help so

28:33 You don't like that's that's the kind of thing. You know, there are stupid things people think they know when they that they don't I know.

28:43 Well, I think people are are also afraid often involve having to keep keep helping helping out, but I understand that but you know.

28:57 That was a tough act act to follow. You know, I think starting Emmaus was I mean if if you kind of learned all the most of the tools of the trade in the buildings in New York in the 60s, I think the 80s and 90s in Washington. It's really an amazing thing that you built.

29:25 Because the other part of it this is what I saw what I saw was that you

29:39 Also connected the volunteers to a world. They didn't know.

29:45 Oh, yeah and said that that was the other part of the education, you know when Gretchen and John were talking when we were texting yesterday. I think that's the other thing that really interested if it interested them in interest me is you know, you were this well-brought-up girl from Park Avenue in New York and you started from a very early age you branched out of that world. I mean I wanted to get out of it you wanted I wanted to believe there was another one.

30:27 Oh, that's an interesting thing was you know, I think even when I was about 14

30:36 I felt pop there have to be another kind of world.

30:40 I'm so awesome.

30:43 About time. I visited my best friend who lived in Stony Brook Long Island, and that was a different world to but I that was when I began to learn that there were other right worlds of I was looking for them. So who was it who connected you to the interracial a classmate of mine? She told me about it when she was she introduced me to them and then she never want to go.

31:14 Why didn't you know I was really struck when you talked about going up to Park Ave up up to the Schaumburg Library number Schaumburg Schaumburg Library, then Nichols just library on 145th and Lex Lenox.

31:32 But the interesting thing to me was I just I was about thirteen then I took the subway up. What you doing New York and I couldn't find my way to the Schaumburg Library and people were so nice to me my God, you know, I mean those white kids, you know, they were just so nice and so we went there and I had a meeting I never went back. I never had a reason it was only later that I figured that that's where the Schoenberg collection was them.

32:10 You know, I lived in such a white area. The Harlem was a revelation to me that everybody was black. I mean hey, you know.

32:21 LOL, really opened my eyes because I have never seen it.

32:27 But you know.

32:29 So

32:30 It's hard to know if you want that contact.

32:35 It's hard to get it because

32:42 Read live in the White Community. We are white right and them.

32:48 Where do I live? There's one black woman? I mean that's the most horrifying thing. I am aware of that of the black community and how warm it is and how wonderful it is and that I do in Washington, you know to see something like that was just a killer, but you know what?

33:16 Others, you know people have to be black or white, but you know.

33:23 But you are what you are but you know the church has any my God. I mean when I was washing tonight then to mix church, but you know, I couldn't find that when I came to New York for like I'm back to New York.

33:44 Rehab

33:47 We had a group called women in conversation and that included black people, but it was mainly, you know, it was mainly white there, but there's no real opportunity to be equal with each other. So

34:10 That's just sad.

34:13 Well, you know, I mean, I remember your telling me that when you died you were having a homegoing which is and I would have would a home going which is not a term that is used mostly in the white community. So, you know, one of the clues to me of how much you learned in Washington and how much it meant to you. Was that you that that was the term you used to think of our farewell to you. So, you know, that's a but you know, I'm I mean, I guess I'm just really struck about the way you always kept growing and reaching out into that was the 5 minutes well,

35:04 Are you emo?

35:06 I think

35:12 It's you know, I seem to need.

35:16 To meet to know new people and being new situations that seems to be a need cuz I'm always thinking about something else. There's another there's another one. There is another world. I can go into science fiction to the other way. You've always been exploring new subjects and getting to meet people and it's always been part of Who You Are

35:49 Well, it's not so much now, you know, I mean, well it can't you Don't Get Around Much a don't see well and hey, you know well

36:02 In a way, I'm out of state, you know.

36:06 And in the way you carry other memories, I mean just somebody on Twitter the other day asked what was the first political campaign until course. My memory is 1960 when you took us out up to 125th Street and Park Avenue for the Kennedy rally. Oh, yes. Anyway, you know it been that way see, you know.

36:35 Yes, you're out of date. But you're also at the historian in me says you're also a connection to.

36:42 What has happened and how people did things LM out of date in some ways, but I think in a fundamental way, I'm in date. So I don't think everybody's going to agree with me so I don't.

37:09 Well, I look out at the life C.

37:12 But the values are on the corporate Samba, you know, we're in the high heels Etc.

37:19 And yet I am I

37:23 Well, I see that Community stuff is where the power is but it's sloppy. It's messy if not tidy is you know, and sometimes you think oh my god, when is what's going on here, but that's where it is. You know, that's where the Beast is so

37:46 Yeah, that's things start from the bottom up.

37:52 I think so, but you know.

37:55 When when we talk about Solutions we seem to be talkin from above and that's very white. I think that's unfortunately that's how we do things with a butt.

38:11 If you were to run for Congress talkin from the bottom up the people say hey baby, they say your Noble but they say you weren't so anyway, but it's it's

38:29 You wonder I wonder.

38:33 Awesome, if it could have been different and I certainly have enjoyed my editing and I enjoyed.

38:40 Working on the newspaper or things like that.

38:44 But it's always the fault that I can get out and talk to people books.

38:49 In the neighborhood more interesting to me, so

38:55 So you've always valued the people that you've talked to.

38:59 And you suppose there's some people we've all talked to people that we don't value.

39:10 Good or bad?

39:13 So, okay. So I think we're almost out of time. So just I'm so glad you were willing to do this at the last minute. Anyway, it's I'm so glad we did this and that you got to tell some of your stories.

39:33 Thank you.