Suzan Martinez-Bigelow and Margaret Marty

[00:20] SUSAN BIGELOW: Good morning. My name is Susan Bigelow. I am 69 years old. Today's date is May 24, 2022. And I am in the StoryCorps virtual recording booth. I'm here with Margaret, my one small step conversation partner.

[00:42] MARGARET: Okay, my turn. My name is Margaret. I'm 55 years old. The date is May 24, 2022. I'm in the StoryCorps virtual recording booth. I'm here with Susan Susan, my one small step conversation partner. Nice to meet you.

[01:01] SUSAN BIGELOW: You, too.

[01:03] MARGARET: A little nervous.

[01:10] SUSAN BIGELOW: Julia. Should I proceed? Okay. Why did I want to do this interview today? I first heard about Storycorps, I don't know, a little over a year ago on a radio program. And it intrigued me from the beginning. And if I had to narrow it down, I'm going to say that the historical aspect of what we're doing this morning resonated most with me and potentially becoming a part of the historical record of those of us who are living today. Perhaps people can learn about in the future. I just think it's important we learn from each other. And if we can document our experiences, people can continue to learn from us as time goes on.

[02:01] MARGARET: Why did I want to do the interview today? I don't know. I do this all the time. I been listening to Storycorps since 2009, and I fell in love with the stories. And I thought it would be so neat to be a part of that someday. So here I am. And it's a topic. I'm going to warn you, I normally do not discuss any kind of political things publicly. I tend to keep it to myself, and I'm very nervous right now.

[02:31] SUSAN BIGELOW: I'm on that same page with you, Margaret.

[02:34] MARGARET: Yeah. So, I. I have an anti politics bumper stick on my car.

[02:39] SUSAN BIGELOW: Exactly. We have beliefs. We just don't share them with everybody.

[02:45] MARGARET: Well, I don't like debating things that are personal to me.

[02:48] SUSAN BIGELOW: Exactly. Yep.

[02:50] MARGARET: Especially people I don't know. You know, never know what kind of reaction you're gonna get these days.

[02:57] SUSAN BIGELOW: That's right.

[02:58] MARGARET: And that's a little terrifying sometimes. Okay, so you want me to read her bio? Okay. I am a 69 year old, white, hispanic, childless woman. I became a window. Window widow on 8121. Sorry for your loss. And now live with my best friend, Bella the dog. I first heard about StoryCorps listening to Glenn Beck's morning radio program, and it was intrigued. I could have never. I could never have imagined I would live to see such a rapid decline in so many critical aspects of the state of our country. And although my natural reaction is in all things to remain hopeful. My hopeful nature is being seriously challenged. Me, too.

[03:47] SUSAN BIGELOW: Okay, Margaret. Margaret used to be a moderate Republican, but now leaning left lately, especially after the blurred line of religion and politics.

[04:03] MARGARET: That's me. That's it. So, yeah, that's, that's been an issue lately. And in my house is we, you know, we, we feel that we're starting to confuse, you know, I don't know. I'm just confused and concerned.

[04:21] SUSAN BIGELOW: Well, and to that, you know, to that, Margaret, I actually, because of the preamble to this conversation and the fact that you and I, you know, we don't, we're not out there on a soapbox and proclaiming our beliefs. And in hopes that, or with the intention of bringing people to our way of thinking, I wanted to ask you regarding the statement, the blurred line of religion and politics. Could you help me understand where, what's in your mind about that particular statement?

[05:02] MARGARET: Sure. I feel, first of all, I avoid commercial media. I avoid corporate media. I don't listen to it anymore. And I feel that the way things are being covered, you know, with the hard right, it's always a religious issue, or they bring it up, whether they do or not, that's what's being said. And I think people that follow those, those things, I believe in separation of church and state, but I understand that for people, religion is the basis of their, of their, I guess, their opinions in politics and life and everything. And I think sometimes people get a little confused as to what our government and our leaders believe or don't believe, because we're only being told by common people who do commentaries, what they believe or don't believe. They themselves don't. And then you do have those that do, but they seem so radical that you almost don't want them there on either side, left or right. Cause left has some real, the far left has some real doozies going on. Okay. But I feel sometimes when we get into the extremes and I feel theocracy, I've studied history and I've read history and have yet to see a successful theocracy going on. And I feel that go ahead and have religious beliefs, but don't make that policy or a reason for a policy. But it's hard to know what's going on with the people in our government because of all, there's a confusion between news and commentary, opinion and fact. And I think some people read, I get so frustrated because you got to remind them that's commentary. That's not news. And I feel sometimes we're being influenced instead of informed. And I feel the line between religion and politics is getting blurrier and blurrier for the sake of sensationalism.

[07:11] SUSAN BIGELOW: Can I reply, Julia, or expand on it? I hear what you're saying, and personally I do live by religious doctrines, but I think that the state of corporate media you mentioned has been the culprit in the mass confusion that goes on and the appearance that people are coming to the, coming to a conversation with religion being first and foremost in their mind. Now, I believe there are matters that probably do take root in what might be considered religious subjects, but I have never. I don't feel that it's my place to debate religious matters when it comes to regard comes to political issues, policies. Okay, they may factor in to your ultimate result, which would be the way you vote or whatever, but I really try to not make that the leading force. The big picture. Okay. There's so much going on right now. The big picture is distorted, you know, often regarding what you might be talking about, but I hear what you're saying. And unfortunately, I think it's the state of what we have devolved to where so much emotion is going into the political discussion, that it's not about policy and what's best in all situations. I feel like everybody who has different opinions, we should be able to exist with one another, and there should be a laws of the land that benefit everybody regardless of how they feel. But we have separated ourselves, fractured ourselves into emotional groups that, and it seems to be. And I think that's what I meant in my bio about the state of things is so chaotic because we've allowed emotion. I use the collective we, okay? I try not to participate in that, but I can see it's going on everywhere. But I don't think it's the answer. We have a big world, a big country. A lot of things can go on at the same time harmoniously. But evidently the way we've gone is people refuse in a hole to try and do it that way. Everybody wants you to join their camp and think like them. And that just. I don't think that's working. I don't think that's working. So I have to say I was a little vague on the blurred line of religion and politics, but I listened to your explanation and I applied it to what I see as going on, and I think it's totally relevant. And I think it's not good. It's not a good thing.

[10:50] MARGARET: Wow. We agree on this, right? Religion for me is in politics. Politics. I didn't get really, really involved until my kids got older. Cause I simply just didn't have time. But then we dove in headfirst, and I noticed I was getting depressed and angry and frustrated. And I felt like my community was being torn apart. And I realized that I was taking in so much, you know, media and reading so much that it wasn't good for my mental health. And so I'm trying to get my husband to get to this point. He's still pretty involved. And I realized when I cut off all the media and I just go to a few reliable sources or just read a few things. If I have questions, I go looking for, like, the 911. I'm reading the 911 authorized report right now, and I'm learning things that weren't covered or stated. And I'm getting away from all the news and turning all the feeds off. My mental health is better now. I'm actually happy again, and I'm out in life again, and I'm. I got color. I'm in the sun.

[12:12] SUSAN BIGELOW: Good for you.

[12:15] MARGARET: The best move, because where this country is going, nobody seems to know. No one knows.

[12:25] SUSAN BIGELOW: Yeah. There's no clear leader. There's no clear direction. It's just chaotic.

[12:31] MARGARET: I think it's been this way a while. Definitely been this way a long time. This is not a sudden.

[12:37] SUSAN BIGELOW: No. It didn't happen overnight.

[12:40] MARGARET: No, no. And I. You know, my. The first time I voted was for Ronald Reagan. My first election, his reelection in 1984, I got to vote for him. And then I felt like after him, I wasn't really voting for anyone. I was simply voting against someone all the time. I didn't care for who the candidate was, but I wasn't too terribly concerned who the other person was, as long as it wasn't theme. And I think a lot of people were probably doing the same thing. And leadership, it changed. It just changed.

[13:21] SUSAN BIGELOW: What? What? I don't understand a couple of things. I have a sister. She's three years older than me, and she is. She scares me when I talk to her. She knows all of the underlying dark, what it's called. What is it called? Dark something. She knows all the. The store, the terrible stories and about what's actually going on. She follows people and she learns all this stuff. And I have to. I have to shut her down because I tend to be hopeful and I don't want to hear about. I don't want to hear. I mean, I feel bad for it because she's in that dark place all the time. But here. Here's my thing. I believe that no matter who is elected by the people, they should. That person should be able to rule over the land for all people, regardless to the well being of all people. And I feel like we've gotten so far away from that. When a certain party or the opposite party is voted into office, all of a sudden we go down a dramatic road with no thoughts to the other half of the country who voted for the other person. And there has been such a. I don't understand how the part. And maybe this has always been okay. I can be kind of naive about things because of my beliefs. I think that whoever is ruling the land should be able to do that to the betterment of all people. That just doesn't seem to be the case anymore. You know, when. When either party gets into power, unfortunately, that's the ugly word. They. They take off with it, and I feel. I feel. I feel like just something floating in a big ocean of, you know, chaos. And I hang on to my beliefs because what else do we have, you know, if we don't, but. And you hope that everything goes well, but it's kind of a. It's kind of a weak way to. To go forward, so.

[15:40] MARGARET: Mm hmm.

[15:41] SUSAN BIGELOW: That's that, you know, I don't know. I I'm gonna hang on to the belief that whoever is ruling the. Our country, they should be able to do that reasonably with everybody. Everybody's not going to be happy all the time. We know that.

[15:57] MARGARET: Right.

[15:58] SUSAN BIGELOW: But the. Whatever's done should be for the good of the country.

[16:05] MARGARET: I agree. And I agree with you on that. I feel that whoever is our president or whoever, you know, we elect, there has to be a certain degree of respect for. For the office, and. And there has to be a certain degree of respect, but in exchange, they have to respect the people they're, you know, overseeing or. I don't. I don't like that word. That's a terrible word. No, but that's absolutely charged with leading.

[16:31] SUSAN BIGELOW: Yes, yes.

[16:33] MARGARET: Charged with leading. And I feel, like I said, I think it's. There's always been some chaos, but I think with the Internet and streaming tv, you know, if there's a shooting in New Jersey, we hear about it in California within the hour.

[16:48] SUSAN BIGELOW: Yes. Yes.

[16:49] MARGARET: You know, there's no filtering, and there shouldn't be, but I think my husband's fallen into this trap. He only listens to one vein of thought when it comes to politics and people, and so he's not able to see another side of anything, you know, so we don't agree all the time. So we made it a pact where he talks, and I just shut up and listen and, you know. Okay, whatever.

[17:16] SUSAN BIGELOW: Whatever works, right?

[17:18] MARGARET: Get this off your chest. Whatever. Better here with me than somewhere else.

[17:22] SUSAN BIGELOW: Yes. Yes.

[17:23] MARGARET: I just. I don't know. I Miss Walter Cronkite a lot. I miss that man.

[17:29] SUSAN BIGELOW: A voice of reason. Yes.

[17:32] MARGARET: And he could deliver bad news, but he. We'll get through this. It'll be okay. We're gonna get through this. And now I feel like everybody's tossing everybody off the boat.

[17:43] SUSAN BIGELOW: Yes.

[17:44] MARGARET: Yeah.

[17:45] SUSAN BIGELOW: And. And everybody's talking, and you're not absolutely certain who's telling the closest thing to the truth.

[17:52] MARGARET: Right.

[17:52] SUSAN BIGELOW: You know?

[17:53] MARGARET: And what. The truth. Good luck finding it.

[17:57] SUSAN BIGELOW: I know. How. I mean, seriously, how many versions of the truth can there be, Margaret? You know, there. Is it enumerable?

[18:05] MARGARET: I don't know. Like I said, I. You know, we. My husband. The reason I'm reading the 911 report is because my husband and I got in an argument, sort of, over this. You know, he's. He's a conspiracy theorist by nature, and I.

[18:21] SUSAN BIGELOW: Like my sister.

[18:23] MARGARET: I have to be the voice of reason. Unfortunately, I don't always want to be.

[18:27] SUSAN BIGELOW: Uh huh.

[18:28] MARGARET: And he believes. He believes the government did it on purpose. And I always believed they had the information, but for some reason, they didn't take action. So I read the report, and what's frustrating me right now, and I think this is part of the problem, what's happening with our leadership and our government is. I noticed throughout. I'm only, like, through the first 3rd. But I noticed there's, like, a plea of incompetence.

[18:59] SUSAN BIGELOW: Mm hmm. Definitely.

[19:00] MARGARET: They're saying, well, we knew, but, you know, this agency didn't know, and this agency knew. And that's pure. Do you remember the Volkswagen scandal with Germany?

[19:11] SUSAN BIGELOW: No.

[19:12] MARGARET: Okay. They did something to their cars to where they passed our EPA checks and everything, but it was a lie. Okay. These diesel cars, they were supposed to be, you know, environmental. I might. It's been a while.

[19:27] SUSAN BIGELOW: They did it on purpose.

[19:28] MARGARET: They did it on purpose to get through our EPA standards and sell cars. Well, they got caught. And when they got caught, the first thing they said is, yep, we did it. We're sorry. We screwed up. We're going to try real hard not to do this again. Right. So they rather plea fraud than incompetence, whereas in America, the best defense we have is incompetence. I listen to our senators and everybody else, and all you hear is, I don't know. I don't recall. I didn't do that, you're just like, come on, grow up. Be an adult. Take responsibility. Admit what you did and let's move on. You know, our children and our next generation and young children are watching this and they're absorbing this and this is things we try real hard not to teach. Don't admit when you've done wrong and take your responsibilities. And I see that being used all across Congress on both sides as an excuse. And now my frustration is, who's really running this country now? Is it the courts? That's the frustration because with the courts you have no idea which way it's going to go. And that's. Yeah, so, wow. Yeah. I'm not the only one.

[20:53] SUSAN BIGELOW: Well, and the thing is you hit on something that opened up in my mind and that is, I think it's critical that our future generations, our young people see the leaders admit to incompetence because it's going to happen forever. Okay. And it's the most reasonable of the excuses as to why something went wrong. Our children, instead of pointing fingers and saying, well, it's my fault that happened over here, they need to learn that ability to take responsibility. And if something went wrong, raise your hand. That is the quickest way to resolve something. I've learned that myself in my work history. You know, if something went wrong, I would raise my hand whether I did it or not because I wanted to get it fixed. But that, Margaret, I think, is a huge part of our division. Nobody is taking. And there's so much being lied about. I'm going to use the word lie, okay, on national tv, on anything that we see that's broadcast nationally, there are people out there that are saying things that are untrue. All types of people, not just one side, okay? We know as citizens that what they're saying is not true. Do you know, I believe that's really harmful to our psyche. Like, wow, I know that I'm a reasonable peace person. I know I'm reasonably intelligent. And that person standing up in the front of the country and telling me something that is not true and they expect me to believe it. I think people everywhere, no matter what you believe in, that infuriates them. That's disrespectful. And with all the media, all the fast paced way that things fly around the country and we learn about them and we hear about them over and over and over again. You don't just hear once, you hear every day until the news cycle's over and we might hear the lie multiple times. And not just that lie. But then here comes another one. And here comes another one. And I know that's frustrating to me, and I definitely chalk that up as a huge part of the chaos. That truth seems to have died in the dark. Okay. It's definitely not the go to option for. I'm going to just narrow it down. For people in politics, truth is not a mandatory requirement, you know, and it's untruth is employed by everybody, and I don't know how you get away from that. I remember being a kid and I was afraid and I talk. I'm talking about a little kid, like under ten. I would tell. I wouldn't tell, you know, disgusting lies, but to not get in trouble, I would. I would twist the truth and I would. I actually spent time worrying that I was developing a habit of not telling the truth. And it scared the heck out of me because I didn't want to be that person.

[24:05] MARGARET: Right.

[24:06] SUSAN BIGELOW: To this day, I am fanatic about being honest. I'm not cruel, you know, but I'm going to be honest to a fault, because it just doesn't seem a quality that people are overusing these days, you know?

[24:25] MARGARET: I like that. I like that.

[24:27] SUSAN BIGELOW: Yeah. I mean, one person at a time, right?

[24:30] MARGARET: I.

[24:31] SUSAN BIGELOW: Well, and, you know, I feel better. I feel better.

[24:35] MARGARET: Do you?

[24:36] SUSAN BIGELOW: Yeah.

[24:36] MARGARET: I see. I think with politicians, we've always expected lies like advertising. You know, it's part of the job. And I think the bar just got lower and lower and lower to the point where we expect this. But I agree with you, it's infuriating, especially if it's something you're passionate about or you feel deeply and they're distorting something or twisting it for political reasons. You feel used? I feel very used by these people. And I'm, you know, in our permanent homes in Montana, and we have two senators. One I like a lot because he works hard. He's out there. You see him with the people, and the other one is political. Okay. The only time we ever hear or see from him is if it's a. I feel like the minute. Well, I feel like most of them, the minute they get elected, they start campaigning. They don't do their job. They just campaign. They're not even legislating job is campaigning. They don't even pay attention to what's coming across their desks. That was obvious a few times, and all they're concerned about is how to campaign. So now they're grandstanding and they're saying outrageous, crazy things on both sides, and they're trying to get attention and they're trying to sort out, and I think they've lost touch with most of America, paying attention to a small segment that gets all the attention and not paying attention. I think the majority of the people are more reserved than what portrayed by our politicians as and by means of. I've talked to a lot of people, not in depth, but I've heard remarks and things will get said. And I noticed people are tired. They're tired and they're just tired of it all. And they just want. They just want them to do their job.

[26:33] SUSAN BIGELOW: Yes.

[26:34] MARGARET: Your damn job. And quit. Sorry. With the show boating, turn the mics off. Turn the cameras off. Go to your office and do your job. Yes is what I want to see. I want to see a working government again. At least some lie to me, tell me you're working. I don't care, but do something, you know, let's get something accomplished.

[26:57] SUSAN BIGELOW: And I happen to be one of those people. My heart's on my sleeve. I'm very emotional. And the, the idea you touched on this, that we are being blatantly led with untruths is so. It's so unacceptable to me that it takes me to a place that I can't not care. Okay, I can't get there. But I live in this place where I'm always frustrated because I just feel like my opinions don't matter. Somebody's talking to me like I'm an imbecile. And I eventually get angry about that. You know, my emotion turns to anger, and I can't be the only one. Okay? So that means there are a whole lot of angry people out there. How do we move forward in that frame of mind? You know what I mean? And we're just stuck.

[28:04] MARGARET: Yeah. We're stuck in this moment, and we can't seem to get past this. I like the question. I think we hit it. Well, there's a pipe dream now, isn't it? Honesty. And.

[28:19] SUSAN BIGELOW: Yeah, all we can do is embrace honesty on a one on one basis, because it's not. It's not catching. It's not catching on in the country, you know?

[28:31] MARGARET: Right, right. You know, I think one of the most, the honesty thing, that. That's driving me nuts. I. My kids, I told my kids, if you work hard and you're honest, you'll always do well at your job. When they first entered the workforce, they weren't seeing this. You know, they were. My son was working 16 at McDonald's, and I remember he called me coming home crying, and I said, you know, michael, what's wrong? And he says, you know, he went to work, and he works hard, and he tries to be honest. And these women that he works with, because he worked days in the summer, were being mean to him and picking on him, and they were criticizing him, and they were putting them down, and he's yelling at me, you promised me if I worked hard and I was honest. And I'm like, well, Michael, I didn't say everybody else was.

[29:24] SUSAN BIGELOW: Yes, exactly.

[29:26] MARGARET: You have to. To be the one is how I taught my kids. Now, today, they're both, you know, they're not, like millionaires, but they're doing well in their fields, and they've moved up, and they've become trusted people by their bosses.

[29:38] SUSAN BIGELOW: Perfect.

[29:38] MARGARET: And I told them that's success.

[29:41] SUSAN BIGELOW: Yes.

[29:42] MARGARET: And then when they started voting and getting involved, they had a lot of questions.

[29:48] SUSAN BIGELOW: Oh, yeah.

[29:49] MARGARET: You know, good. Using these beliefs. And I told them, I says, you're just gonna have to do like the rest. This is life. You've got a weed through you. Find a way through. My concern is, like you said, your mental health issues with what's going on with our leadership, because they do set the tone. And I think the deception thing is, it's getting on my nerves. I'm tired of it, because now people think, remember the eighties where it was, grab as much as you can, get a make as much as you can, as fast as you can, and then fail. I think we're still stuck with some of that. I'm listening to people. They've got their wants and needs. And now our politicians understand that people don't understand the difference between wants and needs, and they use that. Mm hmm.

[30:39] SUSAN BIGELOW: Yes.

[30:39] MARGARET: And like I said, with the media, we're being influenced. We're not being informed.

[30:45] SUSAN BIGELOW: Mm hmm.

[30:46] MARGARET: And it's. It's gone too far. And I live in a small town. I live in Fresno. I've been here a year, and I see a difference. Whereas in Montana, our little town is so torn apart over this. You know, we. We have, you know, conservatives, liberals, and their neighbors are literally fighting with each other over these issues. You know, each other's signs down, they're having parole. I mean, it is completely torn apart. And what made me mad about a certain senator is he came into our community and he played on that. Played on it, and he caused a further divide. He wasn't even interested in what the opposing side had to say. And he actually made cynical, mean jokes on the radio.

[31:39] SUSAN BIGELOW: He wanted to heat up the rhetoric. Yeah.

[31:42] MARGARET: And what he said was meant it turned neighbor against neighbor. And I got, and I said, you don't care about our community. You don't care about us. Care about is getting yourself reelected at any cost. And we're supposed to be united when we're constantly torn apart. And I'm like you. I'm an, I'm an artistic person, so I'm very emotional about.

[32:05] SUSAN BIGELOW: Uh huh. Well, and, you know, unfortunately, and again, I'm going to allude to the fact that if I'm feeling this way, I'm not the only person walking the earth feeling this way, but the people that I can identify as being the one that wants to come in and capitalize on a weakness to their own success, I eliminate that person as somebody that I even have any trust in. And unfortunately, as time goes on, I find myself eliminating more people than I have any trust in, you know?

[32:49] MARGARET: Right. And that's, that's, I think, I wish, I wish they would like, turn off the cameras, turn off the mics, go into their communities and shut up.

[33:01] SUSAN BIGELOW: Just listen.

[33:02] MARGARET: Just shut up.

[33:03] SUSAN BIGELOW: Just listen to what happened to actions speak louder than words, you know? I mean, people would just do, do what's right and not talk about and not do it.

[33:17] MARGARET: You know, just, yeah, just do it. If you see somebody in trouble, stop. Just do it. I like this. And is there something the other side views that you don't agree with but still respect? Yes.

[33:29] SUSAN BIGELOW: Okay.

[33:29] MARGARET: There's a piece of legislation that just went through that caught a lot of news about the, was it about domestic terrorism and upping that? And all the Republicans voted against it and all the Democrats and the Republicans don't care and the Democrats are just capitalizing on it. Honestly, I agreed with the republican point of view, but maybe not for the reason they are stating. They kept saying more resources. And I'm like, why is it every time there's a crisis in this country, we're the ones that lose our rights? Why are we the ones that are constantly, and my husband just lost his mind when I said that. But I think, and it's an objectivity. But nobody hit on the real reasons of what that was about. They were just, once again, we're getting their animals, their crybabies, they're woke. They don't, we're not getting. Nobody educated, anybody on that, on that legislation at all. Nobody really read what it was.

[34:37] SUSAN BIGELOW: And I have, I will, to the day I die, I will always advocate for communication. I believe it has gone the way of the goony bird and it has never lost any relevance as a matter of fact, if anything, it's more relevant today than it ever has. But yet it doesn't seem to be a priority. And it's so easy to communicate, you know? But it's complicated when you don't want to be honest.

[35:07] MARGARET: It is.

[35:09] SUSAN BIGELOW: Yeah.

[35:11] MARGARET: Reality for this.

[35:12] SUSAN BIGELOW: Right. What you're saying about this. It was a piece of legislature is what you're talking about.

[35:19] MARGARET: Yeah.

[35:20] SUSAN BIGELOW: What is, I mean, I don't understand. If it's legislator, legislative, it's black and white. It's written word. Why can't the actuality of it be presented in a reasonable format instead of in a biased format? Then we don't know what the heck is going on. You don't know who. There we are again. You don't know who the heck to believe.

[35:41] MARGARET: No.

[35:42] SUSAN BIGELOW: And I think that's, that's like that with any very controversial, biggest subjects. Okay.

[35:51] MARGARET: It. You're right. You're absolutely right on that. And, and where in the news has anybody, does anybody even understand what that was or what they were trying to do? All they know is, and I, I mean, I literally had to go to gov tracks and look it up and read the, read the, the, like, summary of it.

[36:12] SUSAN BIGELOW: Uh huh.

[36:13] MARGARET: Now. And it was like, okay, everybody cherry picked pieces, parts, but nobody bothered to present both sides.

[36:21] SUSAN BIGELOW: Right.

[36:22] MARGARET: Nobody bothered to educate, nobody. You know, and let's be honest, a lot people just don't have the time they used to. And it's dry, it's boring. Read, you know, for themselves, these things.

[36:34] SUSAN BIGELOW: Right, right.

[36:35] MARGARET: So they rely on what they think is news and they rely on networks to educate them. But you get maybe two minutes of fact and then 30 minutes of opinion.

[36:48] SUSAN BIGELOW: Yep. Yep.

[36:49] MARGARET: And the last thing they hear is opinion.

[36:52] SUSAN BIGELOW: So here's what I'm thinking, because we have, we have landed on a phenomenon that's going on, and it. Maybe it has been going on forever. Okay. But we agree that it's not productive. Do you think that there's a force on earth that can overcome that destructive path that everybody in power seems to be firmly routed or rooted on? Do you. I mean, it's just so jumbled up and funky. I don't know. I hate to think that I'm going to pass out of this world and it's going to be the same, if not worse. I don't know if there's a correction available.

[37:54] MARGARET: World unity. Good luck. We've got so many things that dividend, um. Oh, my.

[38:04] SUSAN BIGELOW: So as humans, we're just, we're incapable of doing what's right.

[38:09] MARGARET: I don't think we are. I think, in all honesty, if we were to teach empathy again and we were to make that something relevant in people's personalities and how they conduct themselves, you know, um. I know people would love to say God could do it, but everybody has a different concept of that.

[38:30] SUSAN BIGELOW: Yeah. That would just complicate it even further. Yeah.

[38:33] MARGARET: Tear each other up part over that. I don't know. We all have such different experiences and different beliefs, but the experiences, I think, is what's relevant, you know?

[38:46] SUSAN BIGELOW: Yes.

[38:47] MARGARET: The only common experience going on, at least in my opinion, in the United States, is we're all being torn apart.

[38:57] SUSAN BIGELOW: Yes.

[38:57] MARGARET: We're being divided. We're not given any reasons to come together anymore. You know, nothing like a good enemy to get the country going. And we can't agree on that now. You know, we can't.

[39:09] SUSAN BIGELOW: I'm just wondering, Margaret, if there's enough people like you and I who see through the veil and if we might be. I mean, I know it's a kind of a pie in the sky thought, but there's power in numbers. I believe that. And I'm just wondering if at this point, if that's the best hope, because our leaders certainly are not every one of them, but they're certainly polluted to a point where I don't have a lot of hope that they are going to bring about a positive change. I'm thinking that it rests with the people. And I don't know, that could be. That could be a turbulent uprising as well as it has in the past. You know, I really am trying to think ahead to how do we start to climb out of this hole that we've dug for ourselves, you know, and I don't. I'm not a give up type of person, you know, and I'd like to think that there are enough decent folks on this planet, and I'm going to limit it to this country where, you know, if we could put our foots down and say, no, no, we're not having this type of government anymore, you know, I'd love to see it happen. I lived long enough to see it, you know, go to hell in a handbasket. I'd love to see it start getting fixed. So my mind goes to, what can we do? And all of the ideas that I come up with are like, yeah, right, you won't live to see that happen. Which is a bummer.

[41:06] MARGARET: That's very. It's. That's. That's sad.

[41:09] SUSAN BIGELOW: I know. It is. It is very sad.

[41:12] MARGARET: I get a little more optimistic I think I have. I think we are, you know, social change is hard. It always has been, will be. And I think we are on the edge of something coming. Socially, there's going to be a change. And I'm hoping, like, through these conversations and meeting other people out there that feel the same way, that maybe there'll be a movement starting to shut all this down and say, no more. We're not putting up with this anymore. We've had enough. Yeah.

[41:45] SUSAN BIGELOW: Because I'm not. I'm not a radical, but I would join in physically and verbally to that type of movement. I would get out there and I would support something like that because I just think it's critical to our survival. I mean, we're talking about crazy decisions that come in front of our leaders that could literally end our existence. Okay.

[42:07] MARGARET: Right.

[42:07] SUSAN BIGELOW: That's acceptable. We can't be in that. In that. In that crazy place. So, you know, I'm gonna. I'm going to hope for the social upheaval and where the people say no. I mean, I know it's happened in past before. We read it about. We read about it in history books, so I know it's possible.

[42:29] MARGARET: You know, I remember a little group of colonists that took on the greatest military in the world at the time, and here we are.

[42:37] SUSAN BIGELOW: I think I remember that it was just a little ragtag group.

[42:42] MARGARET: Right, right. Yeah. And then they decided to start a country. And, you know, we're not going to get into the history debate, but that's a story worth telling. You know, these people, underdogs, and they did what France couldn't do, what Spain couldn't do.

[42:56] SUSAN BIGELOW: Right.

[42:56] MARGARET: All these european countries can do. Couldn't do it, but we did it.

[43:00] SUSAN BIGELOW: And we have. We have the. The heart to do something like that. Unfortunately, I think people, like you said, people are tired. They're like, I got to get up and fight. Yeah. Guess what? And that's the most important thing. You still have to save energy to get up and fight. Not literally fight, but stand up for a better way. Yeah.

[43:22] MARGARET: And I think it's gonna come down to communities, you know?

[43:25] SUSAN BIGELOW: Yes.

[43:26] MARGARET: When the pandemic hit, I relied on our governor and our mayor the most for.

[43:34] SUSAN BIGELOW: You mean Newsom?

[43:38] MARGARET: No, I was in Montana. No, I was in North Dakota. I've lived all over the place.

[43:44] SUSAN BIGELOW: Okay.

[43:44] MARGARET: North Dakota, when it hit. And I went to the guy, you know, I listened to the governor because the federal level was arguing and fighting, and we weren't getting very clear answers from anyone on any level. So I relied on my local leaders, and I made phone calls. And that's what helped us is our community. That's, you know, people in the community could either pull together or tear apart, but, you know, it was all of us together. And I think is once the communities, healthy communities.

[44:18] SUSAN BIGELOW: Yes.

[44:20] MARGARET: I think that's where we're gonna have to start. You know, you can't take on one person, can't take on the government, but one person can sit at a city council meeting and make a big difference.

[44:31] SUSAN BIGELOW: It's kind of like when you think about the. Now, this might be a. I hate to jump from one side of the aisle to the other, but just to make a point. It's kind of like when the parents became aware of what their children were being taught and they started showing up at the school board meetings. Okay, they made a difference. So that's just one example, but that can be done anywhere. I mean, I remember I was born and raised in California, and I remember the voting law change to include 18 year olds. When I was 18 and I went to register, and I. Interestingly enough, I chose to register independent because I didn't know what I was. And it's interesting how, where you reside, what you're exposed to, definitely shapes your beliefs when you don't know anything else. Okay. And I don't even think I voted for the first several elections. You know, I was letting the grownups take care of that, the ones that knew what they were doing. And interestingly enough, over time, I honestly developed my own beliefs, and they led me to a voting preference, but. And I can't remember where I was going with that, but I Calif. Oh, California is. I remember growing up in California, and it was. It was a cool place to live. Okay. And now it's a nightmare.

[46:08] MARGARET: Yeah.

[46:10] SUSAN BIGELOW: Literal nightmare. And I'm thinking, what happened?

[46:13] MARGARET: You know, it's been. This is my first time ever, really, in California, and it has been educational.

[46:21] SUSAN BIGELOW: Yeah. That's a nice way to put it.

[46:24] MARGARET: Never thought I'd ever witness. And we're in the north west, northeast section of Fresno, and some of the things I've seen are just. I can't unsee them.

[46:36] SUSAN BIGELOW: I know, I know, I know.

[46:39] MARGARET: It's been. It's been a life altering year for me here. Yeah. I've never lived in such a large, crowded place in my life, and.

[46:47] SUSAN BIGELOW: Exactly.

[46:48] MARGARET: Tax.

[46:50] SUSAN BIGELOW: It's a shame because it's a beautiful state. It always has been a beautiful state. Unfortunately, it has been transformed to not such a beautiful state. And that, you know, that goes directly to the leadership, as far as I'm concerned, that's what they can do. They can ruin places. We have got. We've got to stop that from happening.

[47:12] MARGARET: Well, I think that's ultimately, as citizens of this country, that's our responsibility.

[47:17] SUSAN BIGELOW: Yes.

[47:17] MARGARET: We need to stand up and tell them, stop it. Not, you know, through the ballot box, through letters, through, you know, our council meetings.

[47:27] SUSAN BIGELOW: We need peaceful protest.

[47:30] MARGARET: We need to take charge of our country again, regardless of our beliefs, and be united in the fact that we all want the same thing.

[47:37] SUSAN BIGELOW: Yes, exactly. We really do.

[47:39] MARGARET: Yeah.

[47:40] SUSAN BIGELOW: We want. We want good life.

[47:43] MARGARET: Oh, my God. I'm so happy I met you.

[47:47] SUSAN BIGELOW: I know. I know. See, and under the. You know, what it is, too, is under the. The umbrella of StoryCorps. We're not bringing to the table an argument. You know, and so many times when people come together in public or whatever someplace else, it doesn't harbor goodwill. It starts out as an argument, and it ends as an argument. So it's critical as far as I'm concerned. Like you said, we need to come together on an equal playing field, because when we do, we can come up with great plans and successful plans. Yes. There's power.

[48:37] MARGARET: It's great. That's what makes this country great, is our ability to come together. And unfortunately, we have a government right now that I think is more motivated by money and power.

[48:47] SUSAN BIGELOW: Yep.

[48:48] MARGARET: And they've forgotten that it's about us, not them.

[48:53] SUSAN BIGELOW: So if I were to blatantly say, what makes this country great is its citizens, not its leaders, would you agree at this point?

[49:01] MARGARET: 100%. You put in the words what I've been feeling and frustrated over for such a long time. My fellow people.

[49:13] SUSAN BIGELOW: Yes.

[49:17] MARGARET: We just gotta, you know, treat people with kindness, be an example of what you want. And I'm. And it's hard. Driving in California makes it very difficult. I have a friend that road rages, and she's not even driving.

[49:32] SUSAN BIGELOW: She's. There's. I think there's always a way forward when we do it with positive intentions. You know, we stop ourselves when we get angry and we take on all those other personality traits that really will not allow us to communicate, you know?

[49:54] MARGARET: Yeah, yeah. And that's. There it is.

[49:57] SUSAN BIGELOW: But we all want. We all want good.

[49:59] MARGARET: You know, we want our country to do well. We want our world to do well. We want humans to do well, but we.

[50:06] SUSAN BIGELOW: Yes.

[50:07] MARGARET: Just because we can't agree on the means doesn't mean it can happen. We can do it absolutely every day in our lives.

[50:18] SUSAN BIGELOW: It's almost like for me, at my age, I'm willing to spend whatever energy I have left. If I. If there's an avenue to pursue that, I'm on board, because I've never had any children. I don't, you know, I'm not leaving a footprint other than my own. So, you know, if I can. If I can go forward and make a difference, that would be important to me because it's important to the success and longevity of this, not only this country, of this world.

[50:55] MARGARET: You know, you did. You made a difference in me.

[51:01] SUSAN BIGELOW: Thank you. I think we. I think we can mutually say that. Margaret.

[51:05] MARGARET: Yeah. I met somebody really great today, Susan, and that was you. And I'm glad I did this.

[51:11] SUSAN BIGELOW: I really think, you know, I wasn't sure I was like you. I was. I was a little nervous because I tend to be chatty. But I think. I think we were talking about matters that were very specific, and we communicated. We connected on a positive level. So we know it's possible. If you and I can do it, then there are others that can do it, right?

[51:41] MARGARET: Oh, yeah. Definitely. I hope the people around me, I want them to be able to do this because I'm surrounded by a family right now that is very angry with me for doing this.

[51:59] SUSAN BIGELOW: Well, I'll tell you what, I don't have a sphere of influence that is exactly going to embrace what I encountered, what I experienced here today. But that doesn't mean I'm going to give up because it's so hopeful. I mean, I've just been sitting in my house with my dog and drowning in what could be despair. But I refuse to give up. So. And I'm going to continue to refuse.

[52:29] MARGARET: So are we good? Are we?

[52:32] SUSAN BIGELOW: Yes, we are.

[52:33] MARGARET: Time, Washington. But I'm so glad I did this and I'm so glad to meet you. And it makes me feel better to know that there's more of us in the center than there is on the extremes.

[52:43] SUSAN BIGELOW: Yes.

[52:45] MARGARET: We're not getting any media attention. We're not getting any kind of credit, I think are the quiet majority.

[52:52] SUSAN BIGELOW: Yes. And we, there aren't things that, there aren't hills that we are willing to, quote, die on. We want to make things better. I'm not going to climb up a hill only to die, you know?

[53:07] MARGARET: Right. Bingo.

[53:08] SUSAN BIGELOW: Okay. Did we have any, did we have any closing? Oh, I hear. Okay. Actually, I think we kind of flew right by these. It says, were you surprised by any of the comments? Or for the most part, were they in line with a. Oh, no, wait a second. Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. I don't think we were surprised by comments. I know. I wasn't surprised by your comments. As a matter of fact, I related to them. They opened up in my mind.

[53:38] MARGARET: So we're feeling the same things and the same frustrations. And I think that's going to be what it takes to get countries act together.

[53:49] SUSAN BIGELOW: And you know what was particularly special in my observation is that we started out in that place because we started out with open minds.

[53:57] MARGARET: Yeah. Willing to listen.

[53:59] SUSAN BIGELOW: Yes. I think that was critical.

[54:02] MARGARET: Yeah.

[54:02] SUSAN BIGELOW: Yeah. Beautiful. Thank you.

[54:05] MARGARET: Women should be running this country.

[54:10] SUSAN BIGELOW: Well, things would be better. Okay.

[54:13] MARGARET: I'll go have a nice potluck dinner.

[54:15] SUSAN BIGELOW: And solve it all.