Sydney Ray and Karen Ray

00:05 Hello, my name is Sydney. I am 27 years old today.

00:12 Hello, my name is Sydney Ray. I'm 27 years old today.

00:18 It is Saturday, February 29th 2020.

00:23 Leap Day

00:25 Things may have changed by the time you hear this recording. But as of now, I'm located in Fresno, California.

00:33 My interview partner is Karen Ray and she is my mother.

00:42 I got it in. My name is Karen Ray. I'm 54 years old. It is Saturday, February 29th. 2020. I'm in Fresno, California my interview Partners Sydney Ray who is my daughter?

00:56 My oldest daughter

00:59 Sydney I'm excited to be here today. Thank you for inviting me. Maybe you want to start the conversation. Yeah. I'm so glad we get to do this together. I feel like it's such an intimate atmosphere to just have a wonderful conversation.

01:16 How did you feel when I was born?

01:19 Very excited you are a big baby and you were induced. So we need the night before that you were coming and we were super excited and when you were born

01:35 You are so big that your face was red and swollen and you looked like a Chinese, baby.

01:44 But soon afterwards. He looks like a beautiful baby and you are bald when you are born and you are bald for about 2 years.

01:54 So even when you are dressed in pink and Bows people called you a boy. I don't know if I ever told you that I feel like that's so crazy because now I have the best hair. I have a lot of hair you do have a lot of hair. It's beautiful to

02:14 I guess you have to suffer the kids hair. That's pretty funny.

02:23 What did you think your relationship would be like with a daughter?

02:30 You know before you are born, we didn't know if you we were having a boy or a girl we wanted to be surprised which was unusual. Most people find out if they're going to have a boy or girl before the birth. And so I didn't have an expectation of having a daughter. I had an expectation of having an a baby a new baby. So when we learned that you were a girl I was super excited and we had a boy name and a girl name picked out. So it was wonderful. I loved having a newborn, baby.

03:06 That's really sweet. I think it's so interesting that you didn't want to find out my gender because even just thinking about that. I feel so much anxiety. I could never cope but thought I would have to know we didn't know with any of our kids. We have three kids while you know, if you have two siblings, we didn't know what any of them if it was going to be a boy across at each one was a surprise. Do you think that I'm a good big sister?

03:34 Lauren and Aaron I did I think you're a very good big sister.

03:39 Although I will say that I didn't know until you were an adult that used to pay your sister to do your chores when you were little.

03:49 We are headed. If you remember when you were in elementary school, we had a list of chores, like cleaning the sayings and the toilets and dusting and vacuuming and every week you guys would switch. So one one week you would have to clean the bathroom and your sister would have to dust and vacuum and then the next week it would Swap and I didn't know until years later that Lauren was the one that did all the chores and you just paid her off.

04:18 Do you remember that? No, maybe she's the one that told me. I can't remember. It kind of doesn't surprise me though. Lawrence always been a hustler.

04:26 Sometimes I feel like I'm not doing enough to be a good big sister and maybe that's why.

04:35 Some residual guilt there. I don't know. I guess that's for you to figure out it made me really proud last night when you told me that you and Lauren and Aaron all went out to eat and you had a really nice sibling dinner together with pizza and beer September didn't have beer I had for sodas but

04:57 Yeah, that made me very proud them. All of my kids get along cuz it hasn't always been like that. I think he had 1414 sodas.

05:07 Possible

05:10 Do you want to tell you want to talk about your brother? Yeah, he's a big part of my life.

05:19 I remember when I was growing up.

05:23 I think I was about eight or nine years old and I was on the playground.

05:30 With my brother and my sister my brother is 7 years younger than me, and he has Down syndrome. As you know, Mom, it's been a journey, right? It has been such a journey and I remember

05:47 Being on the playground and I wrote down a slide.

05:54 And when I got down there, there was another little girl around my same age who's playing on the playground and she looked me dead in the eye and she said what is wrong?

06:06 With your brother

06:08 And I remember in that moment feeling.

06:14 Rage. Wow Rage that's a big feeling for that. It was a big feeling as small age and I felt protective over him and I felt so angry that someone could

06:34 You know ask me what is wrong with this person that I love for being who he has the way that he was born something that he and everybody else had no control over I felt so angry.

06:50 How do you use that experience in your life?

06:56 I feel like that experience.

07:01 Made me.

07:03 Become an advocate.

07:05 For anybody who's getting picked on in society?

07:13 I am not okay with that.

07:16 And I think somewhere deep down inside of me. It Taps into that kind of Rage which leads me to want to protect other people as you know, I'm very active in.

07:29 The fight against mental illness stigma disability inclusion and other people who have got the short end of the stick. I believe in equality for the genders for

07:49 Multiple ethnicities and everything like that. And so I think that that really made me kind of had this weird sense of humility.

08:00 You know you when you say that it makes me think about you always kind of been a spokesperson and after Aaron was born. We didn't know we had Down syndrome before it was for once we got the diagnosis afterwards and I remember being devastated.

08:18 Because I didn't really know what it meant for our family or for him. Even though I am a nurse and I work in I've worked in Pediatrics my whole life. I didn't really know what that meant. And so I remember that we went to church about a week or so we can have after he was born. We went to a small church maybe a hundred people there. We met in a warehouse and we got there early and dad went and talked to the pastor and said, you know, we've had our son and we would like to make an announcement in front of the church. And so you and Dad went up to the front of the church to remember this. Yeah and dad gave you the microphone. And you said you know, this is my baby brother Aaron and he has Down syndrome and I remember sitting in the back in the back row just tears.

09:13 Down my face. I was so it was so heartbreaking.

09:19 To be there in 2 to hear that kind of announcement.

09:26 And I look back at it now and I think at 7 you are such a spokesperson.

09:33 You wanted to say that we didn't make you you want it to say that. You know, you took the microphone and and said that and I was like, wow, that's really powerful. So maybe you've always had it in you to be a spokesperson. I don't know. I think that's a really cool way to frame it.

09:51 I think that when my brother was born I was 7 years old and I am became an adult that day. Yeah, I think that somewhere deep down. I knew time to

10:03 Help hold things together. It's time to be glue.

10:08 Looking back on your early years. You are always really really easy and easy baby a fun kid, very self-sufficient. We never had to ask you. Do you have homework do you need help with your homework? You always just noise just did it was super easy. That's ball from my perspective. You are super easy and

10:31 And I was you know, I had a lot of adjustments after Aaron was born and it was I really appreciate that you were able to

10:41 Do your thing and not need a lot of guidance back. Then the first year was really tough. I think I knew that there wasn't that kind of space for me right there. I'm sorry about that. I wish that was that's okay. Sometimes it's good to learn to be independent. But I would like to hear more about how that first year was for you and what that felt like and how are you kind of processed that news that diagnosis that must have been really big?

11:13 It was tough and sometimes knowing too much is worse than not knowing anything. And so I craved for the first two or three months. I just cried and cried and cried and looking back.

11:32 I don't hindsight's always different but

11:35 I what I was grieving with the loss of a dream the loss of a son that would grow up and be self-sufficient and be a younger brother and when I perceived as what anger brother would be to his sisters and the loss of a dream and so I spent the first year we making my dream and actually spent he's 21 now 21 years remaking the dream because as with all children, they change and grow and learn and so are always changing as a parent. I'm always changing my expectations and my thoughts about my kids. So that was kind of the first year and my

12:21 Part of my coping was to to do everything possible for him. So he was six weeks old when he started early intervention. We went to speech we went occupational therapy. We did all kinds of interventions for him very early on to try to give him the best.

12:42 Outcome possible, you know the most Independence MO stability that he could so that was kind of the first year and readjusting to have another child.

12:57 You know, there's a there's a joke and parenting that when you have two kids, it's one on one and when you have to re at 7 defense, right so we had to make an adjustment to self defense. We didn't make it easy for you. And neither did Aaron. Do you remember when?

13:19 You went back to work. I think you went back to work one day a week and we had our babysitter Kali now part of our family, but she was watching Aaron and he was so mischievous.

13:39 Do you remember when he took all those tiny little clear shampoo bottles that you get when you travel to a hotel and stuff you bring him home? He took all the mini shampoo bottles and he stuck them in the toilet while I think there was some toilet paper involved too because when Holly tells the story she says I can tell you how many rolls of toilet paper it takes to clog up a toilet. That's right. I think it's 12 rolls case. You were wondering growing up. We always had these brightly colored towels. Like they were really plush and soft and I I remember them being like pink and purple and blue just very vibrant and I think every towel that we owned

14:26 Was used to clean up. Yeah that disaster. I think I had color coded towels for each one of you like one of you is pink one of you is purple and one of you was blue so we could keep track of who is leaving the towel on the floor after their showers or somehow. Is that why I did that with Easter eggs to to remember to try to ward off the fighting who got more Easter eggs while we were really good at fighting so I can see why you needed to do that.

14:56 That's part of growing up.

14:59 Fighting with your siblings

15:01 The way of learning how to negotiate the world.

15:04 Pear pear point

15:09 To your mom about like what your relationship is like with your siblings now after thing that you used to call you on so I am very very thankful to have such a great relationships with each of my siblings. Now my sister and I

15:27 Do you remember that we just hated each other? I mean I know hate is a strong word in.

15:31 I hate to say that but it's the true morning and I did not get along ever and I don't think that was.

15:41 Well, to be honest with you. It was mad that she got borned. I'm still a little bit mad about it. I would have been really cool as an only child. Mom has been a spoiled brat. My sister was born four years and 5 days after.

16:02 Me and let's be honest. I've always been a birthday Diva. So the fact that she came so close. I mean she stole my thunder.

16:13 You know that wasn't planned. It's just how it happened. I know and we can infer some things from that. But you know, let's not go there today. I was just mad at her when she was born. I remember a visceral feeling in my stomach of just jealousy. I remember going over to the babysitter's house when you were going to be at the hospital and then I remember meeting her for the first time and just pink Angry. I remember that till you came to the hospital I did and I was not thrilled. I don't know if I tried to hide it.

16:50 Anyting I don't have a thing for I remember you seemed fine. So even at for IRAs repressed if we let you hold the baby we let you hold Lauren you sat in the chair and you held Lauren. I have a great picture of you holding Lauren and she's has she had more hair than you did and she's wrapped up in that cute little baby blanket that they give you at the hospital the pink and white and blue one and you had on a really cute little dress and you set up in the chair and you held your baby sister and looked at her and touched her face and I had no idea that you were feeling jealousy. Angelica. It took about 25 years to wear off, but everything is good now and honestly,

17:36 Lord knows everything about me. I tell her about my good times my bad times. I talked to her on the phone.

17:43 Almost every day since my God, I just feel like so overwhelmed with thankfulness that I get to have that relationship because now I was an adult I see people who maybe aren't close with their siblings or I've met a few only children recently. I know you're an only child. That's so interesting to me.

18:03 They don't have the opportunity to have a sibling relationship. And so I am just thankful that I get to have that with her and with Aaron, so Erin is 21 now.

18:16 I think that our relationship is kind of odd.

18:21 I guess maybe how you were saying you grieve for what could have been I wonder what it would be like to have a brother.

18:31 Who didn't have Down syndrome and yet I'm also grateful because knowing Aaron has made me a better person. I think that is hard to have a relationship with Erin because he doesn't want to know about things that are going on in my life. He just wants to talk about

18:50 Disney movies

18:53 And so I don't really know how to relate to him. Yeah.

18:59 But

19:01 I also know that he has a very strong sense of intuition and he just has a calming presence for me. So when we do spend time together, even if we're not engaging in a dialogue like we are right now.

19:18 It's nice to know that he's there and that we have him so you were talking about jealousy when Lauren was born and

19:30 I hope this doesn't hurt your feelings when I say this, but I'm kind of likes Lauren more than you. I know and so does that make you feel jealous? No.

19:41 This is kind of messed up to say but she can have him I always wondered why there closer. I'm not sure if it's the age difference. I feel more like the sister. That's kind of.

19:57 I'm on a cliff.

19:59 And I'm staring down and I'm watching them and it's a steep Cliff but they're safely below there on the Flatlands below. I feel like I'm overlooking them keeping an eye out and making sure everything's okay.

20:15 That sounds like what a oldest sibling.

20:18 I'd say or feel probably.

20:22 Yeah, so I don't feel jealous that they're closed because that's not my job. My job is to watch out for them.

20:33 Yeah.

20:35 Sounds like you're doing your big sister all very well. Thank you.

20:41 I don't I wonder if it's kind of like motherhood. There's some guilt there.

20:47 And it's inherent.

20:51 Guilt about what not doing enough

20:58 That's interesting.

21:01 I heard mom guilt is a thing. Yeah, we can be.

21:07 How have you managed that?

21:12 Well

21:15 You know part of guilt is about expectations.

21:20 So when you expect

21:23 Something from your child, you know, like you think I do there they're going to succeed in this so they're going to be great at that and then they aren't they don't do that or they aren't that then part of that is built like that. I do not do my part to help them get there.

21:45 Does that make sense?

21:50 Yes, I think so.

21:54 Guilt is it?

21:56 Guilt has a strange emotion. It's a difficult one.

22:01 I agree.

22:03 You know, I never felt guilty about Aaron having Down syndrome.

22:10 I felt guilty that I felt bad that he had Down syndrome.

22:15 Well, that makes sense. Yeah, and so over the course of his life. I have merged actually this is true for all of my kids. I have merged what I thought.

22:30 Who I thought they were going to be are what I thought they were going to do with the reality of who you are and who Lorna's and who Aaron is and now

22:41 It's all fine. Like I'm proud of each of you for what you've done and who you've become.

22:53 Did you realize that you were raising a feminist?

22:57 When was the first time you heard that word?

23:03 From you or in general. However, I don't remember.

23:10 Do you remember when you were growing up when I was growing up when we were growing up as kids and you said to us?

23:19 You will go to college well, Dad and I had this whole thing where we wanted to be parents that praised and dependent children. So from an early age, we when you guys were young. And I sat down and said, what do you need to know by the time you're eighteen? What skill set do you need to know if you make a list or a spreadsheet about it? I think we made a list dad would have made a spreadsheet. I would have made a list and I'm usually the dino list maker. So I think I probably did so things like having a bank account at Bank account 9 how to get your car fixed knowing how to fill out an application knowing how to do laundry all these things, you know, and so we just worked backwards from that list and at different at different ages.

24:09 How do you the different skills? And so one of the skills was doing your laundry to remember this and so I decided that if this was completely random, but I decided that when my kids were in junior high in 7th grade that was the time for them to do their laundry their own laundry.

24:27 And so I sent you down and showed you how to do laundry wash it dry. It hang it full of it and put it away. Do you remember that for the next two to three years? I pretended I didn't know how well you convinced me somehow because you went to the gate Junior High that you were so busy with schoolwork and homework that you didn't have time for it. And so I felt bad. So I still did your laundry for like two more years, but in high school I said, I'm done.

24:58 Yeah.

25:00 I remember a manipulating my way out of that. Somehow Look at me now. I do my laundry all by myself. I know but you don't sort you put lights and darks together, but it's not my clothes so I don't care. I've never had an issue.

25:20 That's funny.

25:24 Can you address where that was coming from? You said did you know you were raising a feminist like so

25:34 I think that growing up you always told us directly. Do you remember this?

25:42 Don't ever rely on a man.

25:45 You need to have a viable career.

25:48 No matter what. I do remember telling you that and I think I always breakfast it by saying if you want to stay home and raise your children, there's nothing wrong with that. But you always need to have a back-up plan in case that doesn't go. Well the funny thing in my mind is that I think as a parent there's many things that you say until you're blue in the face and yet only some of them take only some of them are absorbed.

26:17 Well that took that took

26:21 And now as I'm out in the world I'm looking for.

26:28 A person who would understand that he would never ask me to give up my career that's very important to me. And so I just think it's so interesting that that really resonated with both my sister and I obviously things are a little bit different for Aaron who is going to have a different trajectory, but I think it's so funny. Why and I would say I I wasn't saying that

26:54 From the perspective of feminism. I was saying it from the perspective of being pragmatic because I'm a very pragmatic person and I've seen women who are in unhappy marriages or their husband dies unexpectedly and their lives are devastated because they don't have a way to provide for their family. And so that's where my

27:20 That's where that I thinking and comment and advice came from was I want my children to provide from themselves as as they grow up and honestly now that we're talking about it. I'm thinking that that is true in my life. Not just with a job or profession but becoming less dependent on my husband and more reliant on myself.

27:49 To figure things out and to know how to get you know how to whatever it is navigate problems or issues. It's very motherly that you wanted to protect us from being devastated.

28:05 That's why moms worry, we worry about that that one-in-a-million thing that could happen to her kids.

28:12 Does the worried help it prevent it? No, ok. Just part of being a mom. Okay. So do you remember when I joined Toastmasters? I do remember when you joined testmaster so you went away to college and we were so excited that you got into Cal Poly and it's a hard school to get into and you had really good grades and it worked really hard and I remember the day we took you over there and returned to the dorms. That's probably a story for another day, but

28:53 You kind of crashed and burned over there and that was so devastating for us and I remember.

29:01 When you came back home, I remember the day that you came back home. We brought you home and

29:08 He struggled for many months to try to figure out what you wanted to do and how to put your life back together. And that kept telling you what you should do Toastmaster because you are good public speaker and you like to talk and you're interesting and funny and I'm not sure how you and it actually to be honest with you at that point. You really didn't want to hear much of what advice would be hard for you, but somehow the Toastmasters stock. I don't know why.

29:45 So I join Toastmasters, I was bright-eyed and early twenties.

29:52 And I remember.

29:55 Going there. How did you pick the testmasters group convenience? Okay location the time they met it was over the lunch hour. I remember that thing with Toastmasters is Toastmasters is an international organization.

30:14 Basically filled with clubs all over the world where people get together usually once a week and have a meeting. That's what it is. It's a meeting and it is to practice public speaking and Leadership skills. And then from there there's different things that come out of it. They have competitions and it goes all the way up to International competition topic something to talk about I give you feedback. Okay. So tell us tell me about tell me more about this Toastmasters. So I joined Toastmasters and I remember feeling very out of place when I went there the first few times why is that for the first time I experienced

30:58 Being a minority my Toastmasters Club was primarily made up of middle-aged males who many of whom were immigrants to America? It was such a cultural Smorgasbord. It was a really cool place, but I think most of all the overwhelming feeling was being welcomed as I join the club and I began to go through different speeches that I had to give you no different time allotments and stuff like that and I got some really really cool feedback. One thing I learned is I'm the only person

31:38 Who I've ever met who's not afraid of public speaking.

31:43 Don't tell anyone I'm not afraid of public speaking if I'm all prepared. Yeah, I just Wing It Anyway, I like the adrenaline. It's good times. So I joined this club I start giving these peaches and I gave a speech a humorous speech about how I'm Type A.

32:03 And all the things that come along with that and I won this trophy, I want to go back to that. I want to I remember going to hear you going to the competition to hear you speak and we haven't really been to a test Raptors event before and it was a downtown in a basement. There was no windows to remember that. I remember that I wore a long flowy white dress and it was pleated and it had like a tie around the neck. It was so cute. You look really nice and I think there might have been one other woman that spoke that day. I'm not sure and dad and I sat there and we met your testmasters group and they all raved about how great you were and it was really nice. They were a very kind of group of people to tell me about the trophy that you want. So you won first place, right? I won first place. I I got this huge trophy the trophies sitting in front of us right now in Ada.

33:03 3 feet tall

33:06 I think it's the coolest thing as an adult to enter an activity that unbeknownst to you is going to yield a trophy. I mean, wow, this is not soccer.

33:17 As a five-year-old, this is so cool. So I won this trophy. It's sitting before us of course gleaming because it's partly. So what did you do with the traffic?

33:29 Well, I held onto the trophy for a little while and then when I moved back into your house.

33:38 I don't know what got into me but I just decided it was time for a practical joke. Do you remember when I came to you and I said Mom I hit something it's in plain sight in the house. And meanwhile, I was going around telling everybody. I don't think she even loves me. She hasn't noticed my accomplishment. I put the 3-foot trophy and our house The Gardener was in on it and Nanny. Was it on everybody knew it was a huge joke on my God. You cannot find it and I remember you came to me one day you said I'm going crazy. Can you give me a hint and I was like no. Well, I finally I figured it out but honestly, so we have these bookcases around the TV and they were supposed to this one error supposed to be made for it to all speakers on either side of the TV. I need put it in there and I just I saw it and I just thought Vol University's trophy, but I really didn't think anything of it. I didn't know you were trying to hide it in plain sight so didn't know it was my trophy.

34:38 So I found it and then what did I do with it?

34:44 You hid it in my room. You put it up on the top shelf of my closet in my closet so big.

34:53 They want to do that. Yeah, barely shelves and they're like six feet up the ground and you hid it in there. I had no idea it took me months to find it some kind of the joke's on you, but don't you think I will own that and then do you remember over Christmas a couple years ago?

35:14 Nana and papa had come down to visit and we we put the trophy in that huge green ice chest. They have butt so big it really wouldn't close and then got home and she said what the heck is this and I think she texted you she was so confused and now

35:33 Where you goes all around where did it where was the last place that ended up the last place the trophy ended up?

35:40 My sister she was very clever. She took it to dad's office and when he was gone, he was in the Ukraine. Yeah, and it was quite an ordeal because she didn't want other people in the office know about it because she was afraid that they would tell that so she had to sneak it in and she only had one or two other people in on the joke. How long did it take him to find it less than a week. Yeah. So disappointed. Yeah. It was under his desk and dad was sitting at his desk in an appointment with a client and something sparkly caught his eye.

36:19 And he looked down at her stuff confound the trophy.

36:26 It's so funny. I can't tell if he's mad or not.

36:31 I am worried. He's going to put it in my closet and it's going to take me forever to find it or I'll have to work on a good hiding place. But now it's in our possession. So who knows? We're on the line.

36:44 Trophy meme to you now.

36:47 The trophy for me as a representation of our family.

36:51 And how we can be playful.

36:56 And silly and pulled jokes on each other, but it's still going to be a glimmering trophy. It's still we're still a great family. We're still closed. We're still connected. That's what the trophy means to me. What about you? I think the trophy means to me accomplishment.

37:15 And I'm

37:18 You know it Toastmasters was one stopping you getting better and getting your life back on track. And so it represents that and you know.

37:30 When you're getting your life back on track then

37:36 It's it's a good time to have fun and to be

37:42 Playful and we are a family that plays practical jokes on each other all the time. And so it's fun to have the trophy and we'll see how long that thing will get passed around down the road from yours to come.

37:59 I can't wait. Yeah, me too.