Tabitha Jacques, Susan Murad, and Kira Avery
Description
Tabitha Jacques (37) talks to her friend and colleague, Susan Murad (61), about deaf art and culture, the De'VIA movement, and how the hearing community can be better advocates and allies to the deaf community.Subject Log / Time Code
Participants
- Tabitha Jacques
- Susan Murad
- Kira Avery
Venue / Recording Kit
Tier
Keywords
Places
Transcript
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00:06 Hello, my name is Susan Murad. And today's date is Wednesday, July 14th. 2021. My location is in Canandaigua, New York, which is just a bit south east of Rochester, New York located in here in the Finger Lakes of Upstate New York, and I'm thrilled to introduce to you. My conversation partner, who's also a colleague. And I would also like this think of, as a friend. And her name is Tabitha, jocks, Tabitha.
00:49 Hi.
00:52 My name is Tabitha Jacques.
00:55 Today, I'll be using American Sign Language and here with me as an interpreter, whose name is Kira will be interpreting into English. I'm 37 years old and they have Wednesday, July 14th 2001. I live in Rochester, New York for the next two months or so, and I am pleased to be here today, chatting with my colleague and friend.
01:21 Thank you, Tabitha. Oh, and I did forget to give my age. I don't know how I forgot that. I am almost 62, so I guess 61 right now.
01:33 But I know the important one here Tabitha is and I just am thrilled to be able to share. My, my friends have above, my colleague, Tabitha's Journey, her her history, her experiences with storycorps. And I think you'll all find her as fascinating as I do with Tabitha with personal background. May be where you were born, where you grew up some of your schooling and briefly some of the journey that you've been on as a deaf individual.
02:22 I was born in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, born and raised, and then left home to explore the world. I was born tired of hearing.
02:36 My parents are both deaf.
02:39 On my father's side of the family. I am 5th, generation def.
02:46 On my mom's side of the family. I'm the second generation.
02:51 So growing up. I always had American sign language as part of my life, my entire life.
02:58 My parents separated when I was about two and a half my father moved away. And so I grew up in Louisiana. My mother remarried to my stepfather who I really do consider my father.
03:09 And my stepfather was born in Mexico and moved to United States when he was a child. And so I grew up with a Mexican family with Mexican culture. All of my siblings are Mexican. I was the only white person in that family. That's my mom. Is I just really I cherish that cultural experience as a kid.
03:30 I traveled to all sorts of different schools as a deaf person. One challenge is educational background. It's not easy to access education. That fits your access needs. And so I was born hard of hearing and I could hear enough and I could get by speaking and I was the only deaf person in my mainstream program, and I did not have an interpreter.
03:54 So, I got by.
03:56 Until about 7 where I lost more of my hearing.
04:00 I had Mono and so I started to become more and more death. And the realization was that I would need an interpreter and need to go to a different school. And this school that I was placed in at that point had sort of a self-selected category of students. And so I was in this other class. It was sort of a regular classroom, but during recess I would be able to hang out with the other kids and we just had a blast sharing language and being together.
04:30 I was able to find Community there and then an 8th grade. I realized that socially I needed to have access to it and environment that had sign language. So I went to a deaf school where my mom happened to teach my abs happened to teach there as well. So the residential school for the deaf and I just truly enjoyed my time there.
04:53 I really I just learned social skills.
04:58 I met all sorts of different people and it was a k through 12 program. And so my peers were a varying ages but it kind of sucks to have your mom and dad working at your school. Right? So that was something to navigate has a little bit of a challenge. I applied for a school called the Louisiana School for Math and Science and art.
05:24 It was a gifted residential school.
05:26 And it was 3 hours for my home.
05:33 I was the first deaf applicant accepted to this school. I was the only deaf person there. Nobody else signed except myself, and my interpreter. I lived in the dorms with all hearing peers and I was there for two years and that was one of the most challenging experiences of my life, but it was also one of the most enriching because I just learned so much. It was just a different educational approach. It wasn't a traditional model of really, more of a crap for college and everything else. And so I truly enjoyed my two years there and graduated.
06:11 At that point, American sign language is a need in my life. And I don't want that. So, I applied for college, of course, gallaudet University was the one and I was accepted there where I was in an all signing environment, and I graduated from there in 2006, and I loved my time there.
06:34 Awesome. Thank you very much. I want to switch a little bit and maybe you can take us through this week. Excuse me from your schooling to your personal and professional passion, which I happen to know is deaf art. So if you could maybe give us a sense of that what what brought you to that, your experience with Jeff Art, your own personal experience and how that became such a personal passion to you that it ended up translating into your professional life.
07:18 Yeah, I'll jump around a little bit here. But I promise it, it's all connected.
07:25 Growing up. I hated art and I hated history. I just hated them both. And today, I still have no artistic proud. I can't draw to save my life. I have no passion for creating art in any means. And so with that disclaimer.
07:49 Growing up. I did have the gift of language and culture death language and culture. And so my mom would always mention Jeff artists by name and clean out their work and just to make it clear that there are many deaf children and adults in the world that share an experience to share a culture. And so, I always thought that was interesting, something mom talked about, but I didn't have a passion to create things for myself. It wasn't treating poems about what it meant to be death, for the deaf experience or anything like that. I am pure. I enjoyed listening to other people's reflection, but that was not my priority as a teenager. I had other things on my mind.
08:31 So, when I went to college,
08:37 I was majoring in teaching and psychology and the English.
08:45 They have required elective courses. That's why I took a look at the list. And I knew I didn't want a morning class. So that limited things. Narrowed things down to classes at like 2 in the afternoon or so, and one of the options was art history and I thought to myself, you know, this is probably one of the worst subjects for me, but I'd rather take that because it's an afternoon class and I'll take it over in 8 a.m.
09:15 And that's how I got signed up for an art history course. My very first and taking the course. I ended up really enjoying it and doing exceptionally well, and so my professor prompted me to take the second semester in that track. And so I did, I took that second semester of our history and I enjoyed it even more. And I realize that I have a real talent for this field at that time. I hadn't explored a fart. I just had taken you no more broad art history courses and enjoyed them.
09:48 And then I started talking with different individuals about their experience and they clued me into deaf art, one of the requirements for an art history. Major was to take art classes. Easy.
10:04 So some of the teachers were deaf artists in their own, right? And they were telling me the history of other death artists creating art about the deaf experience. And so I did end up majoring in art history.
10:20 But what job opportunities were there in the world at that time for someone with an art history degree. There were not a lot of opportunities.
10:29 I wanted to figure out how I could fit into industry. I ended up working at the Smithsonian for a time at an internship. I also worked for the United States postal Museum and I was asking around in the deaf community at the same time. Do we have deaf art? And are you interested in it? Would you want to see a museum. About the deaf experience? Would you like a deaf curator and there was interests are in the deaf community in d.c.?
11:02 Folks wanted this and so in graduate school.
11:08 Well, in graduate school. I ended up majoring in art history and Museum studies.
11:16 And then I had to go to New York City.
11:20 It was part of my school, requirements to take a trip there and I lived there for a semester for this program and New York City was incredible. It had a huge program offerings for the deaf community.
11:36 By the deaf community. And so the people who are the docents in the museum or death individuals, and I wondered why DC with such a Vibrant Community, did not have the same equivalent to experience available and I reached out to my advisor and said, you know, if I set up an internship in DC, would you accept that for credit? And I was met with enthusiasm.
12:03 So, I was able to negotiate with the Smithsonian institution to develop a program.
12:11 And this is only as, you know, has 19 museums. And so there's only one that they were going to offer this pilot program.
12:20 They were willing to partner with me.
12:25 And,
12:27 This was sort of out of my own side business. There is no 501 c 3. This was artistic events for deaf people.
12:38 This program was set up. It was successful at the same time. I would go to bars asking the community questions. Like please, fill out this survey. What are you interested in? Do you want to receive our newsletter? Do you want to stay in touch? And so I got a lot of community response at the bar scene. Works to get the deaf community on fire on board. And so, we gathered all this community support and set up a program called Art eyes.
13:12 So I would send out the newsletter or send out emails, connect with folks. And there were one or two organizations in the DC area that would host hearing artists, but would provide interpreter at the gallery itself. And that was so popular. The deaf Community, truly showed up for these events and really enjoyed participating. And so, my goal was to connect the hearing, our community with the deaf art community. I wondered why they were separate. I wonder why they hadn't connected at that point. And I was I don't know. Twenty-three at the time, young assertive and creative, really enjoyed being a part of my community and contributing in this way. And so the deaf Community was pretty small in that area at the time and word on the street was Tabitha was trying to do something with art and So Def artist ended up reaching out to me.
14:07 Saying if someday you get this project going I would love to show my work. I would love to participate. And so I started a Rolodex if you will a list of death artist who and a fart and so my reputation became you know, that deaf art lady.
14:34 My interest was in our history and then a transition to more into a deaf art itself. Expressing the deaf experience, but again, job opportunities were nail at that time in that field. And so I worked various jobs, moved around and really they have nothing to do with deaf art. I was an admissions counselor for gallaudet University of her time. I was the accessibility program manager at the office of deaf and hard-of-hearing and so these these jobs that I had had nothing to do with art, but that was still a passion burning inside me. I would volunteer at various museums offer tours and stay connected to that world and a volunteer sense until I had the opportunity to apply for the director of the dyer Arts Center here at RIT ntid in Rochester, New York. I thought I must apply for this absolutely unique institution and luckily I was offered the position.
15:34 I've been very fortunate to be here for six years in this current position. And I just have a passion for Deaf art, that has grown exponentially being in this place. Seeing how deaf art is valued and having an opportunity to participate and how it's valued its unique to the world.
15:58 That's wonderful. I just want to clarify that ritm tid is Rochester Institute of Technology's National Technical Institute for the deaf. And that is one of the nine colleges at RIT. And it served to provide direct instruction to deaf and hard-of-hearing students as well as teaching interpreting and also students your cross registered in the rest of the University such fun to clarify what you talked about getting to know some of the deaf artist in the community and I just wanted to ask you if you could explain a little bit about a movement within the deaf, art community called de'via.
16:51 And who who you might say introduced that concept to you and what what that is meant to kind of coalescing, art, the deaf artist world and speak.
17:12 Sure, so Divya is an acronym for Deaf view image Art toubia.
17:24 And this was a movement founded in 1989.
17:30 It's by a group of death artists who got together and realize there was no movement or deaf art. And there were deaf artist prior to this time, but they had been overlooked, you know, as a minority experience. And so they wanted to have art about the deaf experience, particularly and that people felt frustrated with the challenges of a deaf, people wanted to show what the deaf experience was like, an affirmation of culture, the resistance they face as a minority culture. And so this group of individuals got together and talked about what that might look like talking about art. That reflects the deaf experience. What is Divya? So they came up with a Manifesto that describe what art would look like made from a deaf experience. And from that point forward, that that moment broke ground for Deaf artist, all over the United States and truly all over the world.
18:31 The person who taught me about the Villa's probably my mom.
18:37 Again, she was a staunch advocate for Deaf culture. She taught as a residential school for the deaf. And so she mentioned Stevia to me as a child. And so I already had an awareness of the term before going to college and learning more about it there.
18:55 Some of the artists themselves were free from that group from the de'via group where my instructors or were my mentors or community members. And so, I had Direct access to the folks who started this movement as part of my education.
19:12 One of the interesting things about Divya that many people don't necessarily realize that that movement started in parallel with the deaf president. Now movement at gallaudet University.
19:27 That was a demand by the deaf Community to have a deaf president of the deaf university gallaudet.
19:35 Now, that movement was influenced by the civil rights movement in the United States. So you can see this cascading effect of civil rights, connecting to a deaf individuals, coalescing as a community saying, we can speak up for ourselves. We can coalesce around our culture and our experience. So prior to Divya really before the 70s.
19:59 It wasn't proper in the community to talk about the struggles of being a deaf person. That was something that wasn't talked about, in the deaf Community. It was taboo. The most important priority was assimilation.
20:15 So, you weren't to express that part of your desk identity. And then at this time, around the time of de'via, there were more and more discussions about this and truly. It was because of the civil rights, that the disability rights movement garnered, a lot of support and coalesced around speaking up for themselves. And so did we again was established in 1989 and is still a very active movement today? It's changed. Of course, it looks different from when it started, but it is still active. And at the same time, there's been other types of movements.
20:49 Within the deaf art community that have a rose as well, but they haven't had the same sort of name or recognition as a group.
21:01 But I can certainly see similarities and just different Generations taking up the mantle different cultures, different identities, connecting with the deaf identity and showing up in their art and different ways than they were affected in the Via.
21:16 And just to add one of the big reasons that deaf art is around today. It's both the deaf community and hearing community.
21:27 Turn always connect.
21:31 There's not a lot of deaf individuals in the field of art history. Not many of them are trained in that field and there hasn't been a lot of scholarship or publication on deaf art itself. Studies is a field and it is a very young field.
21:47 And deaf art is even younger if you will.
21:52 So we're still in the beginning stages of this. But this moment in time is powerful. You can see that we're going to have more knowledge and more access to our about the deaf experience because of places. Like the dyer Arts Center.
22:08 Social media has also made things very accessible. There's opportunities for artists, to gather, to share ideas. And so it's an exciting time to be in and I feel honored and blessed to be right in the heart of all of it at the dyer Arts Center.
22:30 Tabitha you touched on something that I wanted to raise with you and that is kind of the disconnect between the hearing art world in the deaf art world. And what do you feel that hearing people? Let not just artist. But all all people. What can I learn about the deaf experience through deaf art? How how can that be a bridge to understanding the deaf experience?
23:13 Hearing art history field prior to the 70s, I guess again.
23:20 Was predominantly white and male lead.
23:26 Eventually more black and brown folks. Lgbtq folks, disabled, folks, were able to join the field but not without a lot of work advocating for themselves, fighting to be at the table. And I know that that is still an issue. Today, many marginalized communities are not at the table today and deaf art is an example of that.
23:52 Most likely this is because of language, deprivation.
23:59 Hearing people do not know sign language and they focus on English of the spoken language and
24:07 Deaf individuals. Don't often have a strong fluency in the English language. And so there's a disconnect that occurs because the hearing and deaf Community don't often share a language in that way.
24:20 But over the past few years, I've seen in a more of a connection between the hearing and deaf art world's. I think that hearing people would really benefit from thinking about the deaf experience from understanding the deaf experience.
24:40 Most often the hearing Community, looks people with disabilities as having a problem that needs to be fixed.
24:47 It's the medical view of deafness the pathological view that I'm so sorry. We need to figure out how you can fit into the human world as fast as possible, how we can get you to assimilate.
24:59 Answered that framework of looking at the deaf experience as a disadvantage and that you know, I can't speak for people with other disabilities. But within the deaf world are such a rich language of Rich culture. We have traditions.
25:17 Poetry literature. And so we have this wealth of of culture. That is not
25:29 Is not seeing because of a language barrier.
25:36 So I feel like deaf art is one of the best ways to reach a hearing audience.
25:43 Because it's in a visual. Medium is in a medium that you can ignore. It's going to connect to your heart immediately. And you'll wonder. What does that mean? Why does this person is reflecting their heart in this way if the staff person is sad or if they're reflecting the experience of deaf people, why are their hands so big? Why are their eyes so big? What does that do to connect their culture?
26:09 And of course that leads into more of a curiosity to say, okay, what is the deaf experience than? Is there a culture there? And if so, what is that culture like and why is it like that? I feel like I can for my sharing personal experience, but also serve to shift their lens.
26:27 The medical view of deafness is damaging its damaging for the deaf Community, the idea of language deprivation. And when I talk about language deprivation, what I truly mean, our parents in the school system become so concerned about a deaf child need to assimilate into the hearing world that they're so occupied with teaching the deaf child, how to assimilate, to make sure that they can your and whatever capacity they can that they can speak. And whatever capacity they can that they never learn literacy. They don't learn math skills or science or history, that education time on. Those subjects is instead prioritized with speech therapy. And so, I just want to show through deaf art and the, which shows the deaf experience for both children. And adults. Adults, who experienced language, deprivation, who never had the opportunity to learn American Sign Language. We never had the opportunity to learn literacy. What's Derek's.
27:27 And I hope that that serves as a broader message for the larger deaf community that are the largest hearing community, that deaf people being forced to assimilate and hearing culture hasn't worked. And we needed a shift towards a lens of Celebration celebrating difference. Celebrating deaf people for their contributions to the world. And so there's an incredible amount of power in displaying art from a different cultural perspective and having someone from a majority culture be able to do some introspection and think about if I had a deaf child, would I want the deaf child to grow up and create art? Like this stuff. Adult has created that shows this deprivation. And so I hope that would change their experience.
28:12 Change their thoughts into just think that for the deaf Community itself to be inspired to be proud of this community. And a deaf person's identity is to be celebrated. It doesn't matter how a person chooses to identify. There are all sorts of different kinds of ways to be deaf. You can choose to speak or choose not to speak use American Sign Language or not. I for example, have no desire to be hearing I cherish and love my culture and I truly love that we can call us together around this experience. And so deaf art is so important and must be part of the historical story of America, the historical story of our culture because we are part of that story to call sure identity in history is all present in this art. And so, I aim to make that more public.
29:10 Thank you so much. I agree with all that you're saying and it's very interesting that we are. We are recording this in the month of July which happens to be the month, where the 31st anniversary of the Americans with Disabilities. Act was signed and we can we can always debate on whether that piece of legislation has advanced things or not. Or but I always I always look at that as kind of an interesting Milestone and we're we're maybe we are now where we still need to get to then. I think that that's what we're talking about right now is really timely. I wanted to talk to you about some of the major influences are named. Maybe you could do a little name-dropping for us. If there are some particular Jeff artist. I know you don't want to leave anyone.
30:10 Because you do a lot of these people. But who would you recommend if someone were to just say, who would be the artist? I should look at so that I can get kind of an understanding, or a feeling, or an introduction to works by death artist.
30:39 Well, not many deaf artists have websites, unfortunately.
30:45 But the founders of de'via, are a good place to start Chuck, Baird who I absolutely adore. He was a teacher of mine. Unfortunately, he passed away, but everybody who remembers Chuck Baird knows that he was just Larger than Life and it's well cherished in the deaf community that EG Miller.
31:09 Is another artist. I never had the opportunity to meet, but has had a profound impact on the community. She's the one that started it all. If you will, she really thought to bring the deaf experience through ART to the Forefront.
31:25 Then of course there's an silver.
31:28 Harry Williams.
31:31 They were not part of the founding of Divya but we're very much a part of that movement. They need to be recognized for all of the work that they did to advocate for Deaf art.
31:44 I'm thinking about more current artists.
31:49 Ashley Hannon.
31:52 They make work about the deaf experience.
31:55 And then there's people like Laurel Hartman.
32:02 Who you don't see, the deaf experience, explicitly in their work, but they're abstract work does have undertones of the deaf experience. But if you didn't have that awareness and you might not notice it off the bat.
32:19 Christine Sun. Kim is another example who everyone in the world should know a deaf artist who has reclaimed found in her art.
32:32 And then there are some lesser-known artists that are still very important that don't have websites.
32:42 Roy Ritchie.
32:46 He's a black artist and just has a fascinating surrealist pieces that correspond with the deaf experience.
32:58 Juan estrela.
33:01 Is another artist who talks about the deaf experience from a Hispanic background?
33:09 And so they're also people like Nancy Rourke.
33:14 Classic someone who everyone knows if he's creating art consistently about the deaf experience to.
33:22 That's great. I love.
33:25 Seeing you put all those people's names out there and actually watching your expression as you're describing them because I know how close they all are to your heart and to so many about you, happy fortunate experience to get know some of some of these artists and their work which has been for me personally a real benefit of Fringe benefit. I guess you would say for the work that I do. I wanted to ask you a little bit about because with the Via it sounds like those artists are from the US. How does a deaf art internationally kind of connector blend in that way. And are you
34:14 Or I guess I would wonder to about specific you mentioned Roy Richie people who are with Jeff and I got it. I got it. He's so you folks from other countries or folks with a deaf and identity whether it's just and let me text or death and black or however, however that is how are those are those experiences expanding for art for the opportunities? Or can you speak to that a little bit?
35:00 Sure. So because of my art history background, I always like to say that Divya has its place in the deaf art history timeline.
35:13 And there are artists who are deaf and who might say. Yes. The Via is a movement that I identify with, and there's also deaf artist who do not identify with that movement and have their own communities.
35:30 There are Black Deaf artists that their experience as deaf. People is different than the white deaf experience. It's just different.
35:39 And so they create art based on their unique experience, their culture, their background, and that's different than the white death experience. And the same goes for the lgbtq community.
35:52 Is there a deaf blind Artist as well?
35:55 Their experience is so different.
36:01 And like, I mentioned earlier right now, there are a lot of opportunities arising or people to create their own movements.
36:13 But folks, haven't looked in on these movements through Academia or scholarship for publication quite yet. And so, through the art history lens. I mean, I'm thinking about the deaf world all over the world. There are different attitudes and perceptions of deafness.
36:32 Write some countries that people are truly marginalized and are not recognized as human as part of the community. And so, I'm sure that's very different. It is very different than the American Experience.
36:46 There are countries where
36:49 Deaf, the deaf Community is advocated for is supported financially. In ways that are really different than how does people are supported here in the United States. And so I think that is a complicated question to answer but right now is truly a time of growth
37:10 It's an incubating. People are in the kitchen there, cooking, but this hasn't come to fruition that hasn't made it to the table yet. And I'd like to say that the dyer Arts Center helps with this advocating, definite visuals, to create art about their experience and get it out into the world.
37:30 That's awesome. And I know that you're really doing all of that work yourself. I want it in the remaining time that we have. I wanted to talk to you a little bit about her, going back to the personal part of your life. We know that the deaf art actually crosses over through all aspects of your life and in your world, and your work professionally in your own personal passion, but a little bit, tell me a little bit about
38:00 I happen to know that you're a mom now. And how has motherhood? Maybe changed your perceptions of the deaf experience. Where you are now? Where you, you know, what you? What life looks like for you now, I guess.
38:27 My child is hearing and so they're called a child of a deaf adult.
38:34 Akota is the acronym.
38:38 Their experience is unique.
38:42 For me, I grew up with many friends who are cota's. Even my interpreter that is working into English. Today is a Cota and identifies as a Cota.
38:51 I'm really fascinated with the coding experience because I think it's a unique experience that is certainly part of the deaf experience as a whole. And so as a mom now, I see my son, who is two and a half and I understand more about that experience. He has natural fluency in American Sign Language, but of course, I worry about him going to a public school system with a majority of hearing peers and them feeling that he doesn't share culture with them. Deaf culture is very tactile, touch is normal and our community sharing emotions facial. Expressions, Point thing is very culturally normal in the deaf community, and that isn't in public school for hearing children focuses on spoken language. Touch isn't always culturally acceptable. And so my child is going to have to navigate those boundaries between our shared cultures, and the cultures that we don't share.
39:47 And I think that I don't want to destroy that light in him this light that we both share of the deaf experience. Right now this you know language that we both share cherish.
40:02 As a mom. I want to make sure that he appreciates Deaf culture, that he values American Sign Language and that the deaf Community is beautiful and complicated at 1 and is his community. And I want to know that he always feels that he has a place in that world and that we share that world together.
40:24 I love that and I can't believe you two and a half already.
40:30 One of the other things I wanted to ask you about and I know this is going to sound a little silly. But I I like to ask you a question just in general of friends as well as if I'm doing an interview with someone. What does the perfect day look like to you? What is your perfect day?
40:53 Like a work day or anything.
40:56 But with OK, Google
41:01 One of the things that I love about my work is that it's creative. I know I mentioned that I have no artistic talent, but I am creative and other ways. And so my perfect day would probably won't be one. We're in the morning. I'm able to get outside and to go for a walk.
41:19 Where I am thinking about all the projects that I have going on with the dyer Arts Center.
41:25 Different ideas that I have around a fart, I might take notes on what those are and then be able to visit an art museum and have lunch at an awesome, local restaurant for inspiration and then would be back at work and be able to put those ideas into practice, to call specific individual individuals, that inspire me to share ideas, to get the community on board and excited. And at the end of the day to have plans to execute, all of my ideas.
42:02 That's great. I just are there other parts of of your experience of your story that I haven't asked you about that. You'd like to touch on. I want to make sure that I'm not just quote on quote leading the witness here. I want to be able to open this up so that you can have some space to share your thoughts.
42:30 I think this has been great.
42:33 I just have to think Susie, because she is one of my biggest fans and Advocates to make sure that the hearing world is aware of my work. That folks know about the air Art Center.
42:47 We need more allies in the deaf Community. We need more hearing people who make other hearing, people more aware of the deaf community. Did you know about deaf art? Did you know about the dyer Arts Center has this incredible exhibit come with me to see it. We need more people sharing that narrative because this work that I do, I can't do alone. And so I'm thankful for people like Susie who take the opportunity to get the story out about deaf art and the dyer Arts Center to the world. And I hope that, you know, 15 or 20 years later. I hear from somebody who says that I learned about Deaf culture today because of this conversation and that this isn't something new that this is something that everyone can talk about and participate in and enjoy.
43:33 So I can speak for and thank you very much. I can certainly say that some of the most impactful art that has brought me to a deeper level of understanding of the deaf experience has been just a lunch break. Just wandering through the dyer Arts Center and just seeing things that literally, you know, my heart just felt so strongly. And that really helps me to understand more about the deaf experience in sales for myself, and I can certainly say that it brings a new, a y d, a Weider lens to life in general. And I always say that, you know, once you've had an experience of
44:28 Try to to get that deeper understanding you. You won't go back. It'll always stay in the back of your mind and you'll always you. Look at all things differently, you know, is that accessible to people are? Can someone understand what I'm what I'm saying, or what I'm doing, you know, if I if I'm giving a presentation and I turn and write on a board, will in a will, everyone know what's going on? Both those things that may seem very small or overlooked to others, you know, just so important and once, once they've been once you've been exposed to those kinds of experiences through another person's eyes, you don't forget those. So I am grateful to you for opening my eyes certainly and others like me who want to be an ally and will do whatever whatever we can certainly not taking our own weed.
45:28 Following your lead. And so I appreciate that very much.
45:37 So those aren't those were the questions that I had for you. I'm just very thrilled to have been able to participate in this experience and be able to spend some time with a person. I enjoy so much. I also want to thank Kira so much for interpreting for me, so that our communication between one another is is clear and your understanding be while I'm sitting here not signing and trying not to use my hands and certainly Kira is the expert. I would not be nearly as well.
46:31 Those are I guess I would I would also like to just kind of put in a plug if that's okay to tip for folks, to visit the Center website, which is located at ww.w. R. I p e. D, u m p. I d Dyer. I think that's what it is. We're both our family members phone number is, I have no idea anymore because it's just the name that pops up. So. But those will be a great place for interested to start and going to start this journey for themselves. So I would hope that people would would visit that site rit.edu / m p. I d.
47:31 Dyer d. Y e r.
47:36 So, thank you so much. I hope that anyone who's listening to this in B and
47:48 Work cited you to experience more of the story course for for the deaf and hard-of-hearing Community as well as learning more about people, Journeys.