Thomas Wagner and Brenda Ford

00:03 Name is Brenda Ford. I am 49 years old. Today is Tuesday, August 25th, 2020. I am at my home in Atlanta Georgia, and I am speaking with Tom today by three story course military voices initiative.

00:23 And I am Tom Wagner born September 5th 1947. So that makes me 72 almost 73 and I'm very pleased to be able to share my story with storycorps for veterans.

00:41 Set a timer to get started. I'll let's get a little background information. Can you tell me about where you grew up and what it was like I grew up in, Delafield, Wisconsin.

00:56 Less than a mile from our home was Saint John's Military Academy Delafield was an idyllic little town like many villages and towns in Wisconsin. We live right downtown at the corner of Main Street and Genesee couldn't couldn't be any more down town than we were all the stores and shops were within walking distance from memories from my childhood. I have four brothers and no sisters had great fun playing sports in our backyard. The house was once owned by dr. Barnes who was the surgeon at st. John's Military Academy for many years the Park River ran by her home for the fish hatchery and research ponds near our backyard. It was really the perfect location to raise five boys.

01:48 Is there a can you tell me like an important lesson that that you learned during your childhood maybe from your parents or another relative?

01:58 Well, certainly my mom and dad. My father was an Army Air corps pilot during World War II who instilled the discipline and honesty in each of us. My mother was also a very strong disciplinarian, but they were both very caring and demonstrated their love for us every day. A lot of laughter could be heard in our house during those years mom and dad passed away some years ago, but my brothers and I remained very close to her and contact frequently.

02:31 Unfortunately, we lost our youngest brother to pancreatic cancer two years ago Michael other important people in my life were teachers and Military Australian instructors and Senior officers in my chain of command in two officers with ties to UW-Madison for Colonel Ralph Neal and Colonel Duane claven. They stand out the most needed me greatly during my Army Career you always have a feeling that you might I join the military or did it come as a surprise to you and and perhaps your parents.

03:15 Well

03:18 I would say that.

03:24 You know attending st. John's is at an early age.

03:36 Daisy

03:38 The introduction to military life was at a very young age. It was a college preparatory school. I learned a lot about integrity and personal responsibility communication leadership. So I was somewhat predisposed to be in the military and certainly my father having served in World War II had an influence as well.

04:05 And what was it? What was that? What was that conversation? Like when you told your parents that yes, you were that you were joining the military.

04:18 Well, my mother was concerned because of Vietnam.

04:24 And that I might be in combat. My father was as well though. I remember him saying.

04:32 I know you will apply your training and take care of your troops.

04:37 That you lead as well as they will take care of. You just be prepared. Stay alert and come home safe. Those were his words. There was a lot of trepidation. I'm sure my first assignment was to Germany.

04:53 I was here two and a half months.

04:56 Oh that was supposed to be what is called an unaccompanied tour.

05:01 Which meant no

05:04 No spouse. I brought Glory with me. Anyway brought her over which you know, my commander was very nice about it. Unfortunately two and a half months later. I was I was ordered to Vietnam for a year. So we did not have much time in Germany.

05:32 Did your wife Gloria did she stay in Germany while you were deployed?

05:42 Sauk City area live there for a while and then move to Madison continued her final studies you get her degree in social work and lived in an apartment in Madison while I was overseas.

06:10 Well

06:12 I was stationed in the central Highlands.

06:17 And I felt like combat from the from the moment. You stepped off the plane, even though cam ranh Bay was a huge military base the first night. I was here. We had incoming rockets and so forth.

06:35 Very hot very dense. I was in the central Highlands.

06:40 Assigned to a heavy artillery battery

06:46 We moved to a number of

06:49 Fire bases in support first of US troops but within 2 months most us ground forces were we're gone and we were supporting

07:04 The Arvin Army Republic of Vietnam soldiers Americans were serving as advisors during that time and support like US Artillery transportation.

07:17 Air support Logistics things like that

07:22 So

07:26 The firebases were carved out of the Jungle in the central Highlands.

07:31 And up

07:35 It was

07:38 It was scary to say the least but you got used to it. I was in a leadership position in charge of the firing battery. So the soldiers look to me for guidance and

07:56 For maintaining their discipline and their readiness

08:03 So

08:05 Those are my impression of the Vietnam. How old are you at this time when you were put in such a leadership position?

08:17 21 graduated from UW ROTC Army

08:28 As a second Lieutenant. So yeah, it's a lot of responsibility for someone that do no doubt in college in and basic training. Did you feel adequately prepared?

08:46 Yeah, I would have to say that.

08:49 I attended officer basic Course Fort Sill Oklahoma, which is the longest officer course basic course in the Army inventory very technical. It's ingrained in you.

09:06 I knew the guns I knew.

09:10 Permission. I understood.

09:13 The entire process of maintaining those guns and firing them safely.

09:22 I would have to say that training with outstanding. I remember to this day all of the various elements of preparing good gun for fire.

09:33 Firing, so

09:35 I would say that though. My memory is failing about events and names of people that I have never forgotten. So it's interesting. Is there any one particular person that you served with during that time? That stands out, you know fondly in your memory.

09:56 Yeah, and it's somewhat of a sad story as well.

10:05 Lieutenant John Gray first lieutenant

10:09 He was from Salem, Massachusetts. He had a very strong Eastern accent.

10:15 We were both the 12-hour shifts in the fire Direction Center, which is the

10:25 Center upon which fire missions are received in

10:29 Data are given to the guns about where they're to fire what direction what has meth. How far and so forth.

10:39 During our shifts, we would shift change. We would stand outside the fire Direction 10th and just you know chat talk about sports teams. And what we want to do after we leave Vietnam and talked about my wife John was not married.

11:02 I had orders for rest and relaxation R&R as it was referred to but my orders got changed by a week. I got moved a week late.

11:15 I met Gloria in Hawaii. We spent think 7 days there and I flew back the very night. I got back to the Battalion next tire headquarters tactical operations center. My battery was hit.

11:33 And I 122 rocket hit a truck bed right where John Gray and I usually stood and it killed John instantly.

11:47 And 6 others of my soldiers died and about four four more were injured.

11:57 They flew me out there that night that same night.

12:02 And right

12:04 I believe it was I remember how foggy it was and it was raining. It was the beginning of the monsoon season so

12:14 To this day. I wonder

12:20 Why I was not standing next to John when that happen.

12:28 So that's that's a very bad memory for me.

12:32 Do you?

12:35 Do you have any thoughts about the term survivor's guilt that is that is something I've heard from from other other soldiers and I just wondering how how you respond to that term.

12:52 Well

13:01 I think that for me coping with that survivors killing why then why not me if that's what you're referring to was aided by the fact that I had my wife Gloria was very supportive and other friend into military veterans who I knew at UW.

13:25 Buuhan with me, you know who had similar experiences and we we would share we would share our feelings about it and talk about it.

13:35 The other thing for me was that I

13:40 I was within a month of losing my commission. I didn't want to serve after I got back from Vietnam and I bumped into the UW ROTC graduate of mine on campus. I was taking a course.

13:57 Name of the L Vogel in L was in the Army Reserve in a local unit. He said, if you ever thought about re-engaging.

14:07 He said there are some great people in the reserves. They're all soldiers number of them are veterans like you come on and check it out while I did two weeks later. I spent the next 22 years in reserve.

14:23 That helps me because now I was really engaged I was with soldiers. I was leading soldiers and I felt like I was helping them and they help me and be accomplished to Mission together. It got my mind off soldiers that were lost.

14:46 How did you what are your feelings about the public reception went to Vietnam Vets when they came home?

15:00 Well, if you as you may know but one thing I could tell you was going and I were stationed in Germany at the time of the Sterling Hall bombing.

15:11 Campus Life as a ROTC Cadet

15:17 Was difficult I had people to cost me in uniform.

15:24 On campus is the others.

15:28 I remember after my first year. This has been my junior year in advance ROTC professor of military science that gentleman as much as I hate to do this. I don't want you to wear uniform on campus. You come to the armory in you change here.

15:47 And continue your training that way you don't need to be treated like that. So I remember that.

15:58 Then of course coming back from Vietnam. I was in uniform when you came back individually not as units came back as a individual Soldier. I remember leaving.

16:11 Firebase in within two days. I was standing on the ground at Fort Lewis, Washington in the US.

16:19 Gave you a steak dinner. They all processed you the next day put you on a plane home.

16:27 So there was no time to decompress. It was no treatment if you will.

16:34 And I remember walking through the airport.

16:39 I just feeling like I was a plague or something people would avoid you.

16:46 Some people said things that were not very kind. It was a horrible time to have sir.

16:56 Then on the flip side of that.

17:02 After I retired I got involved with a Vietnam veterans group to Vet Center in Madison.

17:13 And

17:16 The five of us that were in that group.

17:19 It was suggested by the advisor by the counselor that

17:25 You know, is there something we could do for Veterans as a group than we thought about it and said, you know, I don't think Madison is in there is ever had them but welcome home for Veterans as a city. I said, why don't we do that?

17:40 So we did we got involved with planning what was referred to as

17:53 Badger base. I think it occurred in 2013.

17:58 Involved

18:02 The

18:05 Shut up of the Moving Wall of Vietnam and we specifically said this is not just for Vietnam veteran. This is for all of it. It was patterned after the event at Chelsea Lambo Factory had the advisor from Wisconsin public television was involved with that help us.

18:26 Structure this homecoming

18:31 It was very successful. We had speakers. I spoke to the Madison Common Council.

18:38 Hey, I'm Paul soglin was the mayor at that time and is you may recall Paul was very active in the

18:48 In his college Years

18:53 Against the war in Vietnam

18:56 But I did I I gave a speech and encouraged everyone to attend and it was it was quite successful. So

19:08 And Paul made a point of saying that after I spoke.

19:14 I want everyone to understand.

19:18 That I was never against our soldiers our troops. I was against the politics involved with why we went to Vietnam. That's what I was fighting. So anyway, it was somewhat point in so that's that's my experience with I have to say the Vietnam veterans have been very instrumental in making sure that soldiers who returned from Duty are treated well,

19:51 And I think we've seen that I mean today it's much different.

19:57 And if you don't mind, can you give me an an example of of of a how how you have been treated or how you've seen other soldiers treated today? That is different. Yeah.

20:14 We we removed and retire to Florida in 3rd. 2013. Florida does have a lot of veterans in this state.

20:26 Yeah, and

20:28 It's a complete 180 degrees if you're wearing a cap or uniform.

20:35 80% of the people say thank you for your service. I even had a a woman.

20:42 Slightly younger than me. I was in the Publix grocery store and I had a cart full of groceries.

20:50 I went up to the checkout counter and she was behind me.

20:55 And she says I'm paying for his groceries and I turned and looked I said scuse me ma'am. You don't have to do that should all yes. I am. I want to thank you for your service. It's the least I could do. So, I mean that's that's an example of my goodness.

21:15 Unnecessary, but

21:17 Ultimate respect

21:20 From people

21:23 What has what has your civilian life been? Like I know you were in the reserves for very long time. But but what how was the transition coming home to YouTube civilian life more less civilian life.

21:48 I had a degree in education science and their physical education minor.

21:55 And there were no teaching positions available. Absolutely none. I applied for everything.

22:05 I ended up working as a teacher with the Madison area retarded citizens Corporation and I stayed with them 11 years and became assistant executive director.

22:20 I never did pursue a teaching position during that time and shame on me for not doing it, but I don't know I was so loyal to them.

22:30 And then they ran into funding problems in my position was eliminated. Then I started my sales career. I was with IBM for few years I was with Sprint.

22:45 I'm into other company. I spent the last 20 years with.

22:51 Small company in Madison call Donnie press and we were involved with digital media books for Association societies.

23:03 Books of abstract in their conference materials. It was a great great little company in a great job related to education but not directly.

23:18 So

23:22 And

23:24 My family certainly suffered with

23:28 Amount of time I spent on that job plus my reserve duty lot of people think that reserve duty is just, you know weekend a month. It's

23:40 In my case being an officer was quite a bit more than that with weekly meetings. It was usually two weekends a month one of which was on paid and then the annual training, but I'll I loved it. I enjoyed enjoyed it immensely so

23:59 What advice do you have or would you give to young people considering a military career?

24:13 Well

24:17 I would say that.

24:23 Yeah, I can think back to my officer basic course and what I learned from that and what it taught me.

24:32 And I would say the one thing that

24:36 Military service teaches you is personal responsibility.

24:41 Taking ownership of your own actions

24:45 And

24:48 Teamwork Integrity honesty timeliness

24:54 Communication up and down a chain of command.

24:58 Those are not.

25:01 Trade store

25:04 Necessary requirements just for the military in all walks of life. Those things are important in any occupation.

25:16 There are

25:21 There is no other experience in life other than the military where you are so dependent on each other especially in combat.

25:34 It it it's just unique.

25:37 And I think that's why there's such a tremendous bond between those people who do sir.

25:45 It's not for everybody. I clearly 40% of basic training washout.

25:53 A lot of people don't qualify anymore to get into the service.

25:58 That I don't feel it's necessarily a bad thing, but

26:03 It restricts.

26:08 Our National Defense as a result of the GI bill is is a tremendous benefit for anyone who has her.

26:20 For those transitioning out of the military, like I can't encourage him enough to engage with and talk to their

26:27 Friends and relatives

26:29 Evaluate your strengths set goals for yourself and work at it.

26:37 Each of them possess the traits many employers value and they shouldn't forget that.

26:47 So

26:58 But all I can say about that I guess.

27:01 Is there anything that that you that you learned about yourself that surprised you as a result of your military service food or bad?

27:17 Well, I think Gloria would attest that one.

27:21 She met me before my military experience after St. John. I've always been somewhat detail-oriented in dub.

27:31 A perfectionist

27:36 But it was even further hold by that experience to pay attention to details.

27:43 Executing the plan making a plan an excuse be able to adjust and adapt when things come at you that are out of your control.

27:55 Work on the things you can't control and don't worry about those you can't.

28:03 I certainly did.

28:07 Learn how to become a better leader through that experience.

28:12 I certainly wasn't perfect. There are no perfect leaders.

28:16 But there are certain principles that are important to being utilized.

28:24 Are ingrained in you?

28:27 So I don't I can't think of anything.

28:34 Yeah about my military service or career that.

28:40 Was on the negative side certainly. There was some people that I met who

28:50 Did not have the same sense of team that I did and they were maybe a little more out for themselves and climbers. They're out there but

29:01 I didn't experience very many of those types of individuals. I was fortunate that way. I had some great mentors.

29:12 In the reserve

29:14 And that's where you find actually because they're successful into careers in the military and as a civilian so and Ralph Neal Dwayne clever to people that come to mind immediately cuz they were very successful and they are under Crazy Life Church.

29:44 So who is crazy Leg Church?

29:52 The one of two Heisman winners from UW

29:57 Spell rehearse what a fabulous man. He was he was tripping so.

30:04 Any way yet? Just walk into Camp Randall. See his name up there.

30:10 Do you keep an do you keep in contact with any of any of your of any of the soldiers that go back with you to your Vietnam days?

30:21 Well, I've lost track since I retired you know, they

30:27 There's a few that you are an email contact. I still am in contact with wink 11.

30:33 He's very active in the ROTC Detachment at UW John there Hall of Fame Wall of Fame. I should say in fact that you had a hundred reunions.

30:48 Was that last year?

30:52 Well one or two years ago.

30:55 And I got to reacquaint myself with some of the officers that I served with in Missouri and some I didn't know so that was put in an ongoing basis. There's only a few that I am able to maintain contact with these days. Most of them are gone.

31:17 Capacitor and since you mentioned your wife, Gloria, how did how did you meet her?

31:26 We met on the Madison Campus.

31:35 Same circle of friends that ended up that she she lived in a house at 101 South Orchard and I lived in a house of guys at 110 South Orchard. So we are very

31:50 We worked at Liz Waters in the kitchen serving food and doing dishes and so forth and she work there as well and we met through mutual friends at a party in the

32:05 You know, it's for me.

32:08 I remember.

32:11 When I was finishing my my undergraduate degree at UW in about to be commissioned.

32:21 Should I not for sure I should get married cuz I think I may end up in Vietnam.

32:29 And I got my orders to Germany and I was ecstatic, you know.

32:35 The Jeep so we both we set a date and we're married and went to Germany and then as I said earlier two and a half months later I was

32:47 Orders to Vietnam which was a real Downer, but we did meet on campus and there are some friends that

32:57 Are lifelong friends that we see so it's it's it's wonderful. My wife's been a rock for me.

33:07 All these years. We've been married 50 years this year. Congratulations coming towards we're not quite there, but we're coming toward the end of our our conversation. Is there anything that I have missed that you want to tell me about want to talk about?

33:31 Thank you.

33:35 Sweetheart glorious meaning of do you want to add anything money?

33:50 Yeah, I can tell him about that. I suppose it's in a row.

33:58 Well glorious chiming in that there was a scary time for her. I had, you know, the only way you could communicate when you were in in Vietnam was the letter they were sent free of charge for us and you to write honey. That's what it's not. Okay anyway,

34:22 I've been in country for 8 months.

34:26 And then I was tasked to go on a support Mission with the 43rd armored Arvin regiment.

34:36 In the tri-border area, that's Cambodia layoffs in Vietnam it it's one of the most dangerous areas in Vietnam. That's where the NBA and

34:48 The Vietcong it was their main Supply Route the Ho Chi Minh trail.

34:54 But

34:57 So I was with a regiment I was the artillery liaison officer. So I was there to help adjust artillery in support of them. It was a macv infantry Captain. His name was John yoram.

35:10 And a Recon sergeant and radiotelephone operator the war for US troops with about 400.

35:20 South Vietnam soldiers

35:24 Well needless to say I couldn't write glorio when I was out in the boonies. Like that was just not possible. It's all of a sudden my letters stopped.

35:34 422 days and

35:39 Of course. She thought the worst.

35:44 But I managed to get through that operation and got back and I called you from a mar station. You could make a phone call. If you can get to a place that has a satellite Communications with a phone and at what time of the day was at like 2 in the morning or

36:06 Ferry oh I caught

36:09 I called that.

36:14 Yeah, she got off work late afternoon. And we finally connected into this obviously was highly emotional for her and the family.

36:25 Not knowing that I was still say or what happened. So

36:31 That was that was one thing I just heard and I have work minutes here Advanced ROTC training occurred at Fort Riley, Kansas.

36:53 And it was a Midwestern.

36:56 Group, you know some big ten schools Notre Dame and Minnesota, Wisconsin, Iowa that type of thing.

37:05 And for the first four weeks you are on the ground there. You never left the controlman area for training area or your billets for the mess hall. You were stuck right there.

37:17 As it's like a hundred guys 18 year old 19th and roll 20 year old guys.

37:27 And they gave me of the gave you a pass and I'm post pass to go to the cadet club, which was a cafe in a bar. They serve three two beer. Well, of course is you know, we could all drink at 18 at UW. So and most schools we've been drinking beer all the time. We had had one in ages.

37:54 Well, there were like eight of us.

37:57 And we consume 72 pictures of beer in two and a half hours. We were chugging pictures.

38:05 Which was dangerous in and of itself, but we had a lot of fun the manager that club was so impressed. He made a sign class of 1968 72 pictures of beer and two and a half hours.

38:23 Some years later when I was within the Reserve at two officers assigned to our unit or UW graduates.

38:33 Rick Brownrigg and Darryl Floyd

38:39 And I happened to ask him I said so, where did you guys go to Advanced ROTC at Fort Fort Riley? Oh, did you get to the cadet club and they said yeah.

38:51 Did you happen to notice any signage there and says yeah, there was a sign over the bar glass the 1968-72 pictures of beer or two and a half hours. If the record that is still good all these secrets and I said that was my class they go.

39:14 Congratulations. I'm at

39:27 That is that is certainly that is certainly impressive what I have weird. We are coming to the end of our time I have so enjoyed meeting you. I'm glad I'm glad we got it too. I'm glad that that phone call to Gloria. She said that was I heard her. I just want to say this out loud. I heard her in the background say that was the best phone calls. She's ever received and then I imagine that it was and congratulations on your 50 years together. Thank you for your service. I mean that I'm a military brat myself. So I know you made me cry.

40:14 You're welcome disease. Is this is he or she still living?

40:23 Oh, I'm sorry.

40:27 Well tough.

40:30 Very tough

40:33 Well, God bless you. Thank you.