Tim Perry and Xenia Kwee

[00:04] XENIA KWEE: My name is Xenia I'm 60 years old. Today is March 8, 2022, and I'm in Powhatan, Virginia. My partner in one small step is Tim Perry. Introduce yourself.

[00:32] TIM PERRY: Yes, my name is Tim. I'm 59 years old. Today's March 8, 2022. I'm in Richmond, Virginia. My partner, Xenia is my conversation storyboard partner.

[00:55] XENIA KWEE: And here is what Tim shared. I was born in 1962 at MCV in Richmond, Virginia. We moved from our home when the so called white flight occurred from north to south Richmond. A few years after that, busing started and we moved to the county of Henrico. I went to Douglas Freeman High School where we were rebels. I was raised what I would describe as lower middle class. I raised two children and owned an insurance agency, which I recently sold in the suburbs of Richmond. I have always been interested in racial matters. And then. Tim, you can go ahead and read senior's bio. Tim, can you hear us?

[02:04] TIM PERRY: Yeah, I can. Now I see us on camera.

[02:07] XENIA KWEE: Yeah. So if you go ahead. If you go ahead and go back to the chat box, you should be able to read Xenia's bio.

[02:13] TIM PERRY: Okay. I'm just trying to figure out how to go back to the chat.

[02:16] XENIA KWEE: If you tap on the. Here, let me try and pull something up.

[02:25] TIM PERRY: Yep.

[02:26] XENIA KWEE: Did it pop up?

[02:34] TIM PERRY: Did not.

[02:35] XENIA KWEE: Let's see. I'm just going to stop the recording.

[02:40] TIM PERRY: Okay, you ready? Let's see here. Migration is the thread in my family's fabric. My grandparents were traders who migrated from China to Indonesia. My father was a scholar who migrated from Indonesia to Europe. A sense of adventure took me from Europe to the US, where I found love, purpose, and community, where I've lived and worked. My life in the US has been enriched by immigrants in the same way that migratory birds delight me with their song and color. People who have migrated, immigrated, enriched me with their heritage.

[03:23] XENIA KWEE: Great. So if you want to maybe each share a little bit more about yourselves, or you can go right into questions, whichever you prefer.

[03:35] TIM PERRY: Were you asked telling me that?

[03:37] XENIA KWEE: Yeah. Tim, do you want to share a little bit more about yourself? Maybe where you grew up, your parents, your siblings?

[03:43] TIM PERRY: Yeah, yeah, I. You know, like I said, I was, you know, I was born here in Richmond and have lived all across Richmond. I was born at the medical college of Virginia down in Broad street, and haven't strayed very far. You know, probably one thing important, I guess, about, you know, my. My background is I believe everybody sees the world through a lens and, you know, and part of that's where they come from and who they are. Along with other things that, you know, occur or happen throughout their lives. And probably one thing to know about me is I was born when my parents were 40, and I had three older siblings, 1517 and 18 year olds, and my mom had me and my twin sister when she was 40 years old. So that was. I always say my parents had really lived a lifetime before I knew them. And part of that lifetime they had lived is, you know, they came from a very poverty stricken part of Virginia out in the appalachian mountains. And when my dad, of course, they both survived the depression, and they, when he was 19, he was drafted and served in the second world War. And if you know anything about the second world War, one thing is that he landed on Omaha beach on D Day, fought his way across France, and then came back to the. Came back alive, and, you know, about the business of raising kids and so on. Moved to Richmond for opportunity. You know, Xenia's bio talked about migrating and so on. And in his case, he migrated from the deep southwestern part of Virginia into central Virginia, where there was more opportunity. And, you know, certainly, you know, having been raised by someone of that generation, you know, as part of the lens, I guess I see the, you know, I see the world through. So I think that kind of. I think that impacts certainly who all of us are, you know, where we come from, how we were raised, and by who. By whom we were raised to. And, you know, so growing up with that, and then I. You know, what I do now? I mentioned in my bio that I was in the insurance business, and I sold that business a couple of years ago to my daughter, that she runs it now. And now my primary role in life is I'm a baseball coach at a high school, and I'm also a teaching professional around the sport or activity or endeavor of pickleball at a tennis club. And so that's kind of, you know, from beginning to end, where I landed, got two kids. One, my daughter, 32. She runs their agency. And then my son's 29, married with a four year old and a two year old little girl, and lives. Xenia probably knows where this is. Lives in colonial Heights. My daughter lives in North Richmond.

[07:16] XENIA KWEE: Excellent.

[07:17] TIM PERRY: So I would add that update to my bio or maybe, you know, some more insight.

[07:26] XENIA KWEE: I appreciate that, Tim. And I know from the bio, we are just one year apart. And when I was born, my father was 39. He, too, the war, world War Two, changed his life a lot. He was living in Indonesia.

[07:51] TIM PERRY: So here, if Xenia is speaking, I can't hear her.

[07:54] XENIA KWEE: Oh, Cecile. Can you hear me? I can hear you. Yeah. Let's work on that. That's. Thanks. Yeah. Tim, I lit up when I heard you talk about your parents. When I was born, my dad was 39, and his life changed completely as a result of world War Two. He was living, as I had shared, in Indonesia, and the Japanese invaded because he was an immigrant there. And he and his family were arrested and put in a concentration camp, and he survived. His brother did nothing. And when he had a chance to leave the country and come to the Netherlands, he did, just to start again. My mother actually grew up in the Netherlands and remembers the d day landing and remembers deliberation. I don't know if your father got all the way to the Netherlands and to the bridges, but I can really relate to what you're saying. The outlook of my parents reflected so much of the past century. The depression, the war, starting a new life and wanting to achieve something better where they started over. It was unusual, I think, for my mother to marry someone chinese. She was from a dutch family, and I recall kids in school or in our neighborhood making fun of us. Orlando also sort of pulling my mother over and saying, well, what do you think you were doing? But my parents had a very, very strong relationship, and I've been in the Richmond area for five years now. I've lived in many parts of the US, South Carolina, Massachusetts, and Washington state. I work in it, and that's been a great field to work in. I've had a chance to work with people all over the world, which is something that inspires me. And I really enjoyed living in Virginia. We do a lot of camping and hiking and outdoor activities.

[11:07] TIM PERRY: I mean, that is, you know, that is very interesting. And I recently watched a documentary, and it was new information to me that at the time of the second world war, that a lot of jewish people coming out of Germany, they fled into. And I had no idea of this, but they fled to, I believe, I don't know, it was Singapore, Shanghai, or anyway, somewhere very that I never would have thought, you know. And the whole documentary is about that story of them going in to that culture. The. I wish I could remember the actual country it might have been China, that the country it was, because at the time, they were at war with Japan. And the. The Germans demanded that they send them back, you know, to Germany. The jewish immigrants and Japanese refused to do that and said, you know, we're not, you know, we're on the same team, you know, as far as the axis powers and so on, but we don't play ball that way, you know, that we're not going to send them back. And so apparently, even today, there's a large population, you know, or more than I would ever thought, the jewish people who live there. And, you know, today, oftentimes, you know, I have friends who talk about the state of the world, you know, and the things that are going on today. Some will go so far as to say, times have never been like this. I think it's the end of the world, you know, or something. And, you know, I'll always think about my parents. You and I are unique in that most of our peers were, you know, when our parents. When we were born, our parents are 39, 40 years old. You know, they lived a lifetime or somewhat. They had a long history. Most of our peers, maybe their, you know, their parents were, you know, on average, maybe in their twenties, thirties, they were young, and that was a different generation. And, you know, you and I were really raised by a different generation than a lot of our friends or, you know, people we're around are. And, you know, I think that I'm really thankful for that, that I have, you know, had, you know, so much, you know, for that, you know, for the type of people and the experiences they had in their lives. And that's meant a lot to me to be able to always felt like I was older than my friends because I had older parents. And I found when I had kids, my first one was at 25. And I always said, yeah, man, I used to get around and roll around the floor and play with her. Four years later, I had my second one, and I could already feel the less energy and less vitality as I was only 30 years old. And I think about coming into my parents lives, you know, when they were 40, they'd raised teenagers, and they had been through all that stuff, you know, and along came a couple twins. But that is very interesting, you know, that we're able to talk and so on. Now, when you say your parents were from or your dad was from Indonesia, what is modern day Indonesia considered now? Is that China?

[14:48] XENIA KWEE: No, Indonesia is a whole string of islands, Tim. So it's sort of in between. I say Australia and China. It's very densely populated, and it was a dutch colony when my father was born there. And then it gained independence in 1949, which must have been an incredible time because that's the same year that India became independent from. From England, from the british empire.

[15:25] TIM PERRY: Okay.

[15:26] XENIA KWEE: Indonesia became independent from the Netherlands. China had its revolution, and my dad was a student.

[15:33] TIM PERRY: So would that be to interrupt. Sorry. Would that be the Boxer rebellion, or am I way off track?

[15:40] XENIA KWEE: That was close. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, my father later told us that he actually became stateless. He had no country to go back to. So when. When I hear about refugees, you know what that is like. He had no, you know, his passport was no longer valid to go. To go anywhere. And, yeah, you know, when you say having older parents, you know, it is definitely a unique thing in. Not only was he older, but he. He was largely blind, never drove. And you think back as a kid, you, gosh, what's the matter with my family? And later you learn the fact that he survived at all, made a new life and had a family was incredible. And I think maybe you're right. You do feel older than your peers. When I met my first husband, he was ten years older than I am, but I felt like we had a similar background because of that perspective growing up.

[17:23] TIM PERRY: Yeah.

[17:26] XENIA KWEE: Even though my. But because, you know, my. My first husband's parents had also been in world War two. So it's. It's very interesting.

[17:41] TIM PERRY: Yeah. I mean, it's really, you know, coming from, you know, what do you think, you know, coming from that history, that background? You know, when I read your bio and you started talking about migrating from Indonesia to Europe, I read between the lines and figured that there was something bad that was going on that caused somebody to do that. I didn't know, second World war or whatever, but. And it was funny when I read it at first it said your parents or your dad was a traitorous t r a d e r. I read it as traitor. And I'm like, they were traitors? What do you mean? You know, so then I reread and understood that, and I, you know, so there was that event that occurred, and then I read that he was a. An educated man, that he was. I can't remember the term you used, that he was a scholar. And usually when a country comes in and starts taking over or whatever, oppressing people, the first ones to go are scholarly people, you know, people who are educated and have, you know, or, you know, that they know. They know the. Maybe they know his. The history or whatever that it sounds like. Like in having friends. I know who were from, like, Laos and Cambodia, pol pot, and, you know, all of that stuff that happened. The first. Some of the first people get rounded up are educated people that, you know, that aren't as. Maybe they're not as easily controlled or they're not willing to follow the. Follow the company line as you say, you know, and so kind of when I read your bio, I kind of read between those lines and thought, you know, in terms of immigration stuff, that there was a why behind all that. Yeah, it's, you know, it's so amazing. I mean, as a guy that's been here forever, I love to hear stories like yours and to understand that it always reinforces with me with all of her flaws and all the rocks people throw at her in America. It's a pretty incredible place that someone can, you know, Europe, Merrick, whatever, can immigrate, migrate. My dad only came across the state, but there was opportunity there. And he, you know, you know, with his values of working hard, providing for his family, there was that that opportunity existed. And, you know, I always think that's an interesting thing or a story of our country, you know, to me, because really, for the first time in human history, when their country started, it was really the first time where people were free to seek their true potential, that in the past, the people who controlled things, it was by a bloodline, it was by a class, you know, or whatever. And it was kind of, and it's amazing to hear the stories of, you know, what occurred once that happened that, you know, here you reference in your biography about, you know, immigrants and immigration. And, you know, I feel strongly about the very same thing, that it's always so impressive to me that once somebody has opportunity and they, and they get in a situation where they're able to take advantage of that and be rewarded for those ideals of, you know, hard work and so on, that what can happen, you know, I mean, you and I are both kind of a product of that, in my opinion. My dad, he wasn't a scholar. He left school in the 8th grade. He was born on, you know, a farm, and he, you know, ran away when he was 15. He quit school. He ended up back at home and survived the depression and then went to the second World War. And, you know, a generation later was my, you know, my brothers and my sisters. And then, you know, me, the, you know, the quality of life I have and the quality of life my children have had two generations later, you know, it's amazing that it far exceeds, you know, what, where he was and where he ended up. And it's, to me, just, I just love to hear stories like that and I love to think about that, you know, the, you know, human potential is just such a, an incredible thing if unleashed and allowed to flourish.

[22:53] XENIA KWEE: Can you tell me more, Tim, about what you shared in your bio, your high school days, your experiences, enrichment. At the time of busing, I was, you know, I've lived here five years and tried to visit a lot of places and meet different people, but I think this is a great opportunity to learn about that time and what that was like for you and your sister and other students.

[23:30] TIM PERRY: Yeah, it was, you know, when I look back on it, it's kind of interesting. One reason I got, you know, involved in some of this discussion is it was a law around racial things, and there was a time when a lot of that stuff was going on. And, you know, a lot of the conversation and stuff that goes on there always felt like, wow, this has been, you know, kind of a theme in my life that we've been trying to navigate here in Richmond since I was a kid. And some people, you know, who were outspoken or had views or whatever, I'm like, man, y'all are late to the conversation because we've been trying to figure this out all of my life. You know, a lot of the stuff you hear out there wasn't, there. It wasn't new, you know, and so, you know, just with my family, my dad, my mom, that, you know, the, the way we were certainly raised at every turn, I guess, back up. Part of the lens they saw the world through were they were devout christian people, and that's, that's, that's how they saw the world. And that was in their daily lives, what they modeled to us. And part of that foundationally was that, that the idea that, you know, God created and loved all people the same didn't matter, you know, what they. What they look like or whatever. And, you know, and they're, they're kind of. My dad, of course, was as a blue collar guy, you know, his standard was how hard people worked. The harder people worked, the more he liked them, you know, and that's what he kind of instilled that in us. So there wasn't a lot as far as the racial part in our family. There wasn't this view of us and them or whatever. You know, our goal was always to get along with people. And as a child, I didn't understand it a lot. You, you know, we lived in North Richmond in the city, and there was some, the way I understand it, some federal legislation that I think it was the fair housing act that, you know, there was a lot of bad stuff going on. You know, there was a lot of, a lot of things codified and in, you know, in our, you know, in our, in the whole, I guess, culture, you would say that disadvantaged people, and those were eliminated, or at least there was a move made in that direction. And so is what happened. When I was about five years old, we lived in north Richmond. I don't know how much you've been around Richmond. John Marshall High School, which is in the city of Richmond over off Chamberlain Avenue and kind of that northern area, and that's where we lived. And all of a sudden, everybody started selling their house and moving to. And it really wasn't, you know, in my family, it wasn't, oh, no, we got to move because people we don't like might move next door to us is what really happened is housing prices, housing, housing values crashed. So it was a race to get out of those neighborhoods for someone who owned a home that, you know, I vaguely remember one time as a little kid, my dad looking out the window and said, there's a for sale sign in the neighbor's yard. We got to get out of here because they knew their home value was going to, going to go down. So we moved into South Richmond, Westover Hills, so west over hills there for about two or three years. Then the idea of a busing came up, and that was, you know, that that's, that's what kind of, that's what happened. And so I always say that if you think about it, back then, there were some things that were very unfair and they were along racial lines. And to me, it was an example of the people didn't take care of that. The people weren't receptive to that. They didn't, they weren't interested in that. And so when that happens, we as free people, you know, we the self governed, the ones who are the real decision makers, when we don't handle things as they should be handled, then the government steps in and offers its solution. And so typically, its solution is imperfect. It doesn't solve the problem, and it creates new problems in a lot of cases, the problem looking to be solved, you know, there's, there's things. And when you do think now, you look at the city of Richmond, the suburbs and all that, so, you know, the differences there that. So we were, my mom had twins. We were two years old. My mom didn't drive, and we lived near Westover Hills elementary school, and she walked us to school every day. We had one car, and that's how we got to and from school. So for us, you know, the way busing, I guess, impacted her and my family is we, you know, they came, I guess, and said, all right, you're not going to go to this neighborhood school anymore. You're going to get on a bus and you're going to be sent down into downtown Richmond to go to school. And so for my mom, I guess as the mother of two cute little, two second graders, that wasn't acceptable to her because it was the neighborhood school. It's like when my kids are at school, you know, and something comes up, they're sick or, you know, just something basic like that. I'm out of the community, I can't, you know, I can't be there, I can't be involved and so on. So then for two years, and if you look around Richmond at a lot of the private schools, a lot of them started about that time. And so for two, so my mom had a friend and this friend was going to, there was a new upstart private school near Forrest Hill park and said, hey, I'm sending my son and daughter there, they can ride with me. And so that was the alternative my parents sought for 3rd, 4th grade. I went to that school with their goal of finally moving. So then like a lot of people took them a couple years but they moved. I guess that was the first 2nd move in our life, you know, as a child. Then we moved to Henrico county. So Henrico county was out in the suburbs. It exploded at the time. And same true with Chesterfield county, that not so much Powhatan county, not so much, you know, but there's a lot of growth out there, obviously. And you know, things seem to start to develop west in Richmond. You know, Powhatan has grown over the last several years. They do have some stuff there where you got to have a two and a half acre lot to build a house. So it hasn't become as densely grown like Chestfield where you have a quarter of an acre and, you know, build. So, you know, that kind of was kind of a common thread in my life were those things. And so then, you know, high school, I found something very interesting. I went to a middle school that was called Harry Floodbird Middle School. So Harry Bird Middle School was, is over. It's on, off of Quiocassin Road, western part of county. And it was named for a guy who was a, I know he was a segregationist, if not a, if not a grand wizard or something of the Klan from the bird political machine, you know, I think there was one in West Virginia, same thing. So he, so that's, and I started thinking one day, and it was part of having some of these conversations that I realized they took his name off the school a couple years ago because of his history, you know, how they're renaming schools and all that, and I think it's now Cuyahkes in middle school or something like that. And so I started thinking through that and I said, you know, that was, that school was built about time Henrico county really exploded in growth named for that guy. And I kind of wondered, the developers out there and so on that were trying to attract people that maybe that was kind of a, I think the term they use now, kind of a dog whistle to say, hey, we're going to name this school after this guy. Everything's cool out here. And growth development, you know, Henrico county, short pump, all that area, how, you know, you know, how it's grown and continues to grow. So I started kind of thinking about, you know, that, you know, those things. The high school I went to was Douglas Freeman High School. So we're there on three chop road. We were the Freeman Rebels. And, you know, back again, back in the racial discussion stuff, we, we as the rebels. I played football and when we air band, when we went on the field, they would play Dixie and they would roll, we would roll out there with the confederate flag. So that's, that now. That name no longer exists. It's, I think they're the Douglas Freeman mavericks.

[33:13] XENIA KWEE: Mavericks, right. Yeah.

[33:15] TIM PERRY: So, you know, I went to, I went to Texas one time and was at a wedding and some guy was, I was introduced to a guy and they said, hey, this is John. He's our family. He's the family civil war expert. You're from Richmond. Maybe you all can talk to each other, right? And so I started talking to him and ask him a couple questions, which kind of told me he wasn't a real civil war in Texas. He was. Right. But so I said something and some guy, Texan stepped in the conversation and he told, john, Jesus, John, you're not going to out civil war. This guy, he's from Richmond, Virginia. Those guys are raised on that stuff, you know, and it's true in that we know a lot of the history and, you know, it's a historical place. And so, you know, there's a lot of. We grew up around the monuments. We. And I always say, look, the high school I went to, it's named after Douglas Freeman. Douglas Freeman's biggest claim to fame is he wrote an autobiography of, or a biography of Robert E. Lee, and that made him renowned and loved. Right? And so that's in, that's in that culture, you know, in air culture here in Richmond. But when I look back on it, I, and so I asked myself, you know, what were, you know, in high school as far as some of those things, you know, how did we really feel right and about racial matters? And, you know, we always, we took it as a rebel, kind of like if, you know, of a James Dean type of rebel, a young teenage, rage against the machine, anti establishment type stuff, you know, and that's kind of how we took that, you know, and that's kind of maybe that's how all teenagers like to rebel, you know? And so it wasn't on the surface people might say, well, yeah, you know, they were probably mistreated doing, you know, the way they looked at people. But no, because regardless of racial makeup or whatever, I, we all felt that way. You know, there were guys that didn't look like me, that carried that flag on the field and embraced the same type of attitude toward the world in terms of being rebellious and, you know, but as I've said that, you know, I had this conversation with a friend of mine who, a black lady that I've known a very, very long time. And at the time, there was a lot of stuff coming up about the confederate flag and banning it. And she asked me, she's like, Tim, what's the big deal about this flag? You know, what is, what is it about people feel so strongly? And I said, well, you know, andrea, some of it, what it means to people like me, at least. It was more of a symbol of rebellion. And I said, you think about it, we grew up together. What was it that bound us together? What did we dislike the most? Right? Was it racial? And she's like, no. And I said, you know, it wasn't me either. And she said, I know what it was. And she said, no offense to her moderator, but she said, people from up north. And I said, yeah. And I'm like, why was that? Well, they always treated us like they were smarter than us and better educated, and they come down here and they think they could tell us how to do things, you know? And so some of the culture, I think, again, what's said out there, you know, stereotypically maybe, and what reality is, having grown up in all of that, it's a lot different, I think. But at the same time, if somebody tells me, if you're my neighbor through my lens, where I'm informed to love my neighbor and to have caring and compassion for them, and they say, hey, you know, that really bothers me. I'm going to come alongside them and try to fix that. And when some of those symbols and some of that stuff that means one thing to me. It's not important enough to me or I don't think should be for me to, you know, if it bothers somebody else. I don't feel that strongly about that kind of thing. I feel more strongly about getting along with people, and I think, sorry, Tim.

[37:51] XENIA KWEE: I just want to give Xenia a chance to share a little bit, too, about.

[37:55] TIM PERRY: Yeah, because I'll talk forever.

[37:57] XENIA KWEE: I want to give Xenia So, Xenia, share with us a little bit about, you know, maybe your high school years, what it was like for you growing up in Europe or wherever you were at the time. Yeah, it's. It's very interesting. When I went to high school, and I went to a public high school that was right across the street in a city the size of Richmond, a quarter million people, very industrial city. And it was in, you'll find this interesting term that in the Netherlands, which was at the time, I think probably, if you would compare it, say, to living in the US, had a socialist type government, we had a labor government. There were a lot of great health benefits, housing benefits, and. But as high schoolers, some of our rebellion or some of our explorations and adventures, there was a group of folks at our high school that were very interested in the southeast, in the american south, the music. And I didn't really own all the stereo equipment or so we would go to people's houses and they would play the Oldman brothers band and Marshall Leonard Skynyrd. Leonard Skynyrd, little feet. And they said, it's called South Rock. And I didn't really know what south rock meant, but there was something very appealing to the music. I was more into Pink Floyd music like that, but I had a lot of good friends that were interested in things from the south. And there was a group of folks in our city that had the rebel flag in their houses, and they called themselves rocking rebels, and it was more about music. They were. They liked Elvis, and they had. They. They had special days where they did various competitions, whether it was, you know, doing stunts on their motorcycles or car or with their. With their cars. And. Yeah, like, I mean, the. The origin of a lot of these symbols was not known to me until I moved to South Carolina in the early eighties with my husband, who was from Massachusetts, which is about as northern like when you look at it. I remember talking to people there, and they said, people from the north. And they immediately would say Massachusetts as a prime example because of, I guess, politicians and universities, like, I didn't know this. My husband and I met in California. I did not know all the nuances of this country. And when we got married in South Carolina, interracial marriage was against state law. And the lady at the courthouse was typing up the certificate and said to me, do you go by the white race? And I didn't really know how to. I said, was there a human, is there a box for human race? But she filled it in so that we were both the same race on the, on the paper. And that was, that was that. And so I learned sort of more about the south. Living in a small town in South Carolina. We did. At one point, just on a Sunday, we were driving around to go to a farm, a farmers market, run into a clan parade. You mentioned Harry Bird, and you mentioned the term dog whistle, which I had never heard. Seeing the clan walk through a parade through a town is very up front. You know, what's, what you're seeing. You, you have some sense of what it means, but the dog whistle from you saying that, you know, I often wondered, are there signs that I do not fully understand that say, this is what this school is about, this is what this building is about. And because I'm, you know, new to the area, and I'm neither northern nor southern, I'm neither white nor black, I don't pick up on it. Or is there, are there other things that I see that make me uneasy? I don't know. You know, am I naive? Am I to. Or am I just uncomfortable? And I can't tell why?

[43:36] TIM PERRY: Well, you're better for it to try to figure out all the complicated, you know, and it's gotten very complicated. And, you know. Yeah. I mean, and it's interesting to study the history. You know, we hear the sound bites and we hear what's said out there. I think that. And sometimes I think that someone that a commentator one time said, and it kind of stuck with me, it says, don't listen to the stereotypes you're being fed. Listen to what's being said. And so that's part of this is for, to be able to have people together from, you know, different in your, in my case, from different parts of the world, even, you know, and, and to be able to learn more about your perspective, how you view things and so on and from mine and the lens we all see the world through. And it's what we find out is you can't really, you can't really label and put and put in and assume things about people based on where they're from or how they look or any of that stuff, you know, and like, you know, I was challenged, and this gets kind of around political stuff. But the same commentator had challenged people to do just that, go out and talk to people and, and you'll find that what you might think or what the stereotype you're being fed said is not reality. And so I spent some time one summer, she was a black lady. She's on the radio, and she said, she said to me this. She said, and I'm involved in the political world and all this. And she said, you know, most in understanding racial stuff, most black people are capitalists, and most of them are conservative. The way they lead their lives, which is totally opposite of what's being said out there stereotypically. She's like, go and meet the people and talk to him. So the first guy I ran into, I was, it was in July, it was so hot outside. And he was, and he was, like, detailing a cardinal, and he had a trailer there, and it had a water thing. And so I knew right away the guy was probably in business for himself and had a mobile car wash business. Mobile car detailing business, right. And he, so I walked up to the guy and started just talking to him, listening to him, you know, and he and I talking. And I said, hey, you mind if I ask you a question? I'm like, what's that? I'm like, are you a capitalist? And he's like, hell, no, I'm not a capitalist. You know, like that. And I said, well, wait a minute. You're out here in the market providing a service in exchange for money, and you're trying to make a profit, right? And I said. And he said, well, yeah. And I'm like, that you're a capitalist man, you know? And so he, he laughed and smiled and he said, you know what? I guess I am. And he said, but I've always been told I'm not because of who I am, right? And so I just think, you know, the more, again, in your case, you ask and said, you know, there are nuances and things out there, culturally or whatever, that aren't, you know, a part of your upbringing or where you came from that, you know, I mean, it all means something different to everyone. And it all, and it all can be made to mean anything. Anybody wants it to be made. And usually, in a lot of cases, typically out there in the political world, it's because it's to somebody's advantage for people to think that way.

[47:43] XENIA KWEE: Can you give an example of that in, say, Richmond.

[47:48] TIM PERRY: In Richmond. So I think to divide people, if I'm a politician or I want to have power or I want to, you know, or I want, or this, let's say power or hold office is to my advantage to divide people. And it's also to my advantage to, if I'm in office, to deflect and blame for stuff that's going on. And so I think that all of us, as people are stronger, more powerful if we're united together around some agreed on core values and beliefs. Most people out there I run into every day, their primary concerns are the price of gas, their primary concerns that they want a safe place to live, they want enough to eat, they want a good job, and they want dependable transportation and a better life for their children. So I think all of us can come around and agree on that. But for some reason, we're 50 50 at odds with each other around things that we're being told, you know, that, or we're led to believe that this person is my enemy and that person is yours and blah, blah and all that kind of stuff. So I feel like we saw it in the city, I think, and I'll give this example that, you know, there were. You remember when there were rioting, riot. There was rioting downtown, and people were angry. They were in the streets, let's say, protesting some rioting, right? And I. They were angry at what? They were angry at their government. They were angry at city government, who controlled the police department. They hired the police chief, and they were mad about how things were being done. So they showed up to exercise their rights to protest. Now, some people, when you turn, take the political side of that. The next morning when that happened, the mayor of Richmond was at city hall, and there were people in his face with bullhorns yelling at him, a mob of people demanding change the next day. And he was literally shaking. You know, he was. He seemed scared, and he probably should have been. So then the following day, he came out and they announced, okay, we're going to take these monuments down. Okay, let's go take the monument. And then off went everybody to argue about that, you know? But there were, to me, two realities there. One, it were, they were my fellow citizens that were unhappy with their government. I'm a conservative. As a conservative, I support that. I do believe the people, you know, are. We're self governed and we should have that voice. I felt like I should have been down there with those folks, you know, protesting the state of things in the city around housing, poverty, education, and all those other things I said that people want, you know, all of us share those in common that we desire for our families. But people like me, the narrative became, oh, those people down there need to sit down and shut up. They're wrong. They're rioters. It's not, they shouldn't be doing the things they're doing right. And I disagreed with that. So on the other end, though, a lot of the issues, those day to day issues people are dealing with in Richmond, those are local government issues, education, public safety, you know, all of the above that I think they've done a really poor job with, but they kind of deflect that and point in another direction, and then you're not pinned on the steps of city hall anymore with people with bullhorns. They take their bullhorns and go yell at their fellow citizens, you know? So to me, from my perspective, that's where people united together toward those common causes based on those things. My daughter and I are at odds around those things. I raised her to have a heart for her community and to help people. We agree with all that. We happen to have two different ideas of what those solutions are, and it's not, it's the solutions we argue around, and we as people do the same thing. So I don't know if that answers.

[52:22] XENIA KWEE: Your question or not, but, yeah, I'll have to think about that.

[52:26] TIM PERRY: Yeah.

[52:27] XENIA KWEE: Because I, I remember going to, you know, to the city and talking to people and, and, you know, there were a lot of different issues that people had is how the police responded to some of the protests, the use of, use of violence, not just at the protests but in other occasions. And, you know, is it, you know, is it possible when you get that kind of situation to say, well, you know, our, here one solution is to improve the schools or to, and then how do you do that as opposed to picking something like whether it's, you know, firing a police chief or, you know, making a more and more visible change right away that, yeah, that can deflect people. And do you, in the end, are we better off or do we, do we create new, you know, it's almost like squeezing a balloon and something else pops out. And that's difficult because I've gotten, I think every time I go into the city and I try to go, you know, once a week, I hear different stories and I learn more. And it is a, it's, it's very complex.

[54:13] TIM PERRY: So I know we don't have much time. Right. And I find, and this is what has helped me and my daughter communicate, because at one time we didn't. And it was a lot of these issues. She's very active in politics in the city of Richmond. I'm out here county. And we were at odds, and I had to learn and she had to learn how we could not let that affect us. And so the thing I would say is, the thing that's really at odds between people out there and the solutions has to do with ideology. My ideology, that I see the lens, I see the world through as a. As a conservative. The word conservative itself means I want to conserve something, right? So I'm a conservative, and I want to. My goal is to conserve for me, the power of the individual, the protection of the individual through the Constitution, and the further the voice of the individual through the republic, which just means local, accountable representation. So those are my three things. And so that's the lens I see things through. On her end, she sees things differently. You know, she looks more from a view of the. The collective knows best to direct the individual and to make decisions from, you know, a kind of a, you know, the word bureaucracy, if you break it down in language, means desk power. That there's a group of people out there who know better for the individual how to fix stuff, you know? So just as in your family and in my family, the thing that really got us to where we were were our parents having the opportunity to be rewarded for their. Their hard work. And it was more than nobody probably showed up and said, hey, Tim Perry's dad or Xenia's mom and dad, we're here from the government, and we're here to fix your life for you. You know, who helped, I think, in my life was my dad with an opportunity, your dad or mom with an opportunity to, you know, for them to better. And so I think when that's equally applied, and I don't think it's equally applied in everyone's lives to empower the individual. That in my worldview, that's the solution, is, you know, deregulate the individual, give them an opportunity. Whether you're in the city of Richmond, Chestfield, controversial thing. Make the government school system accountable by giving the individual a choice to walk, to say, no, this isn't good enough, I'm going over here now, and all of a sudden things change. And that's just my view.

[57:23] XENIA KWEE: Yeah, yeah. And I think my. My experience is. Is different there in that I think, you know, it's not always apparent how much a society or a government contributes. You know, I think that, you know, hard work and achievement happen in so many ways that you may not even be aware of. I don't know. You know, I certainly think that my parents, you know, worked very hard and overcame a lot of adverse circumstances, but, you know, there was also a tremendous rebuilding of, say, their, their country and their cities that, you know, everyone contributed to. It was there were high tax rates and high levels of benefits for everyone. I don't think people would have achieved. You know, when I think about the city that I grew up in that had great industry and research, it wasn't all sort of individuals that took the risks and started that. I think there's a lot that helps us along that, you know, we may not be fully aware of at all times, even from. I think I've had more people. I believe, you know, helping me without me even knowing it. And that certainly doesn't mean I might sit around and wait for people to do things for me. Far, far from that. But I think that there is a great power in communities and in people agreeing on how to do things and how to make things better for everyone. So that's time for us. Is there anything else you'd like to share with each other before we finish?

[59:43] TIM PERRY: I would just share that, you know, I enjoyed the conversation, and I think it very, you know, a unique perspective to be able to sit and talk with someone of both indonesian and. And I don't know how to not netherlandic descent. I. But I don't know what would that be, scandinavian or Dutch? Dutch. And also the path of your life, you know, here in Powhatan, Virginia, of all places, right down the street.

[01:00:23] XENIA KWEE: Yeah, it was very, very interesting to me, Tim, to hear about, you know, Appalachia, World War Two, parts of Richmond that I've visited, but, you know, would not have a sense for what it was really like to live there. During those times, I feel encouraged to ask more people more questions and maybe not. Not look for dog whistles or things that, you know, that sort of are ghosts, perhaps. So it's certainly in a pandemic. I've gotten to appreciate this area more because we spent more time around the house and not just little things and go outdoors. So I appreciate the opportunity.

[01:01:36] TIM PERRY: Yeah. Can I add one thing that I didn't touch on real quick? You mentioned that you like to hike and so on and the outdoors. That something I became really interested in because I am an individualist thinking person, are developing survival skills and going out, and I like to go out with minimal stuff and instead of. Instead of acquiring things to survive, to try to train myself to be able to survive with a minimal amount of stuff and have done some backcountry camping and packing and all that kind of stuff and, you know, boiling my own water because I love the, I love the freedom of being able to take care of myself like that. And so, you know, maybe we'll see out there on the hiking trail somewhere, and if I, if you see me, give me some fresh water.

[01:02:33] XENIA KWEE: Yes.

[01:02:35] TIM PERRY: Because I'll probably need it.

[01:02:37] XENIA KWEE: All right. I'll.