Warren Herndon and Calvin Philpott

[00:07] CALVIN PHILPOTTT: My name is Calvin Philpott. I'm 73 years of age. Today's date is Monday, April 29, 2024. And we are at the Mount Zoa Missionary Baptist Church, where I grew up as a member, small town. And the reason that I would like to ask Doctor Herndon, the first question is because of where we are today. Now we're actually in this church. There's a lot that have, that has gone on around this church. There's a lot of changes that have been made around this church, which was the, the core of this community, probably. Number one other thing besides the church is the school, which is now an elementary school. We no longer have that high school, which was the camaraderie that you and I knew at one time. The main question that I have that was just kind of a backdrop to get it up that this neighborhood, the areas that used to be garden areas, farm areas, they are all now new homes. And I'm talking about brand new homes, not just the homes that we knew growing up. They're not rental property. These are homeowners that are coming in here. How do we take this new neighborhood that's now diverse? Years ago, when I was a kid, most of the people out here I was somewhat related to in a lot of ways, and it was strictly one ethnicity here, and we were all this bad. But today it is so diverse. How are we going to attract a, this new neighborhood? We don't have the high school anymore, so we can't depend on that group because this is elementary. How do we attract these new, I'll just say immigrants, because they didn't, they didn't grow up here. They're from other places. How do we attract them into where we are right now, into this church and create that same type of home neighborhood that we grew up in for these new participants that are out here now, and some of them don't speak the same language, how do we do this?

[02:59] WARREN HERNDON: Great question. Philip.

[03:05] CALVIN PHILPOTTT: Philpott

[03:06] WARREN HERNDON: Philpott First of all, let me just introduce myself again. My name is Reverend Doctor Warren Herndon, and I'm 71 years of age. Today's date is Monday, April 29, 2024. And we are actually in the Mount Zohar Missionary Baptist Church. And of course, I am here with Deacon Philpott. And we grew up together across the street at Merrick Moore Middle School. Great question. So not middle school, but Merrickmore High School.

[03:43] CALVIN PHILPOTTT: Yeah, Merrickmore High School at the time.

[03:45] WARREN HERNDON: So great question. But what I want to do is to start off by just going back a little bit and then I'll come back to answer that question. So moving here to Durham when I was 14 years of age from Granville county, didn't know anyone, but became a student at Merrick Moore.

[04:07] CALVIN PHILPOTTT: Okay.

[04:08] WARREN HERNDON: Was very much attracted to Merrick Moore because I came from the historic Mary Potter High School, from Granville county.

[04:20] CALVIN PHILPOTTT: Okay.

[04:21] WARREN HERNDON: All of my family had come through black high school, african american high schools or what have you. And then for me to come here as a middle school student, you know, I was almost like, in heaven.

[04:35] CALVIN PHILPOTTT: Oh, yeah. And I can not not cut you off. But you see, Merrick Moore was. Was three a. That was how we were classified. And Mary Potter was probably two a or one a. Yeah. Which was it? I know they.

[04:47] WARREN HERNDON: I can't remember.

[04:48] CALVIN PHILPOTTT: Okay. Okay.

[04:49] WARREN HERNDON: But the issue became, is I immediately went to my class, my teacher was african American. I immediately went there. My principal was african American. All the students, as you very well know, we are all african american students. I'm a very proud. I can recall back when I was five or six years old, entrenched into the african american or the black experience. From that time, I spent about three to four years there at Merrick Moore. Best of the best teachers, of course, best of the best. At that particular time, 14, 1516 years old, the best of best food in the cafeteria. Enjoyed riding the bus with my best friends, enjoying looking at little girls, because that's what little guys do when we're 1314 years of age. And the experience was absolutely phenomenal. And I'm gonna move to your question in just a second, but let me.

[05:55] CALVIN PHILPOTTT: Just say something about that cafeteria that you mentioned. It was all cooked right there in the cafeteria. Nothing was brought in. Yes. So anyway, go ahead, go ahead.

[06:04] WARREN HERNDON: No pizza.

[06:05] CALVIN PHILPOTTT: Oh, no.

[06:06] WARREN HERNDON: No chinese food or whatever. It was southern style food every day.

[06:12] CALVIN PHILPOTTT: Every day.

[06:12] WARREN HERNDON: And I can remember my classroom had to be on the basement on the first level. And so about 1115, we could smell the food coming from the cafeteria.

[06:25] CALVIN PHILPOTTT: Yeah, it was downstairs. So, yeah, it would rise up.

[06:28] WARREN HERNDON: It would rise up. And then we look forward to the food. Then I can. In 1968, 67, 68, at 1112, 13 years of age, I became entrenched into the civil rights era. I would go home in the afternoon and I would see the news carrying where Washington, DC, the students are marching. The students are actively involved in the civil rights struggle. Civil rights era. You could turn the tv on. Birmingham, Alabama, the same kind of thing. And then right here in Durham, North Carolina, we had a strong african american sense of respect, sense of understanding, which you very well know. We saw our teachers, we saw our clergy leaders. We saw individuals, city council, county commissioners participating in this.

[07:27] CALVIN PHILPOTTT: Well, and we all lived in the same neighborhood together because it was a little bit different. Go ahead.

[07:32] WARREN HERNDON: Absolutely. And then we would go home on Saturday evening or Sunday evening. We would play in our neighborhood. We knew which neighborhoods to be in. We know that as young african american, young boys or young students, that if your parents told you to be at home at eight and 09:00 or seven and eight, you were there at seven and eight. And the rules was fairly strict. This was the best of the best, which you very well know. Now move to your question. The best way to answer this question is that I've been to 22 countries, 37 states, I worked at major universities, and I didn't know very much about many different cultures. But what I found is that people feel best in their own culture. And I learned that when I left here, don't want to keep going back and forth. I left here to southern high school, and things did not go well there because integration actually was a mistake. I'm going to try to get through this interview without being really harsh because.

[08:52] CALVIN PHILPOTTT: But speak your truth, though.

[08:53] WARREN HERNDON: Oh, yeah, absolutely.

[08:54] CALVIN PHILPOTTT: Speak your truth, and then I'll come.

[08:57] WARREN HERNDON: Back afterwards because I think that there's no I. There's no. We can't place a value on an opportunity to recording like this. On opportunity recording. I've worked on a couple of Robert Wood Johnson projects, and this Storycorps project is really awesome. Of course, I listen, listen to NPR about 15 hours a week and get in trouble with my wife or what have you.

[09:26] CALVIN PHILPOTTT: A lot of good information.

[09:27] WARREN HERNDON: A lot of good information. So it's so important there. So the short answer, then we move on to another question, is that we've got to find a way how to bring the community together. And as I travel around the country, most states, most counties are having this problem. So the short answer to your original question is we've got to be able to knock on some doors and invite people to come.

[09:58] CALVIN PHILPOTTT: Okay. But, you know, I see it. If that's your answer, I see it a little bit different.

[10:06] WARREN HERNDON: Okay.

[10:07] CALVIN PHILPOTTT: Because what is, is what we have now, and there's nothing we can do to change. We can't go back. Yes. Those were glorious years. Well, I call them. They were glory years in a sense, even though some, you could look at it half the glass half full, or you could look at the glass half empty because there were a lot of disparities, as we all know. But now that we're here, now that has happened, and we still have this same structure here and we have new structures in our neighborhood. We're getting three, I think they said, about 300 new homes that are being built on a plot of land that as a kid I ran through those woods barefoot every well all summer. I'll say I did. Had lots of fun. We used to call it the hills back there. And how I see this and the reason when I thought about it and I said, well, I got a Reverend Doctor Herndon here. He's one of the associate ministers. And how I see us being able to capture this new, and it's a whole new generation because these are not people our age. The pastor here, I think he just turned 70. Like I said, I'm 73. And what we have to do or what we really need in order to incorporate this new community that has come in. Like I say, there was a time in 1962, you would not have seen Caucasian walking a dog on Hilleberg street. You would not have seen Hispanics walking their dogs or whatever. That didn't happen because we were so segregated. So now how I see it is we're going to have to work from inside the church. And then, because as you know, the church as it was from that time has died out because that as they got older, the way I see it, there was a young man who came down for prayer and he had on some skinny jeans. Now, he didn't, they weren't jeans, but he had them tight leg pants. We're going to have to, we're going to have to get. That's going to have to be the new pastor that's going to attract this new generation of people that have come in. And this right here. I know, Algin, that some other people in the past, they're probably not going to like hearing this, but it's true what I'm about to say. That new generation, that young man, he may have his hair twisted up or spiked or who knows? Or it could belong down to his shoulder. I don't know. But one thing that in order for him, and this is me speaking, you did your truth that he, this person is going to have to not know Jim Crow. Now that's a hard saying. Well, I don't say not know because you need to know your history. But what I'm, what I would change that to say is that he didn't live Jim Crow because they have a different mindset than you and I who lived it. Not that he. That he ain't, that he's dead. You just don't. You may not see him the way we saw him. But my point. The point of starting right here, that's what I said now. Cause the church just started welling up in me as far as the nucleus of this neighborhood, since the school is gone, that he's gonna have to be a young man that's gonna come in here and probably wearing them tight leg pants that me and you probably. I know I ain't gonna buy them. Excuse me, excuse me. I'll come back. But anyway, that's. That's the. That's the person that will start it. Because the way the neighborhood is changing, the way it's migrating with people from everywhere, because this is. It's now global. Everything is global. Well, now, that's it. That's what I just leave right there. I leave right there.

[15:32] WARREN HERNDON: Yeah, but let me shift. This expression is good, but just careful with touching the table too much. That's when you hear some stuff through the. No, you're totally fine. No worries. Thanks. Yeah. My question is, I like the way we launched off, but what were some of your role models? Because that's what I remember this community, of course, again, when I was in the middle school and high school, I think we find ourselves as children, as students, or even as adults. So who were some of your role models here?

[16:21] CALVIN PHILPOTTT: Well, I had definitely the teachers, the coaches. There were one used to be Reverend Hopper used to live right behind. Used to live behind the church, over that house. And thing doesn't exist anymore, but some of his descendants are still members here. And as long as I live, I remember him. One thing that he said to me at about 14 or 15 years old said to you need to find your wife out of Sunday school.

[17:09] WARREN HERNDON: Absolutely, absolutely.

[17:12] CALVIN PHILPOTTT: But, yeah, I wrote a paper on him and. And when I was at Hunter College in New York. But anyway, yeah, there were, there were plenty of people that were one of the greatest ones that. That caused me to be. To work into left and they working. I worked for bell telephone, Chapel Hill. All tell. I always was red peaks. He was. He worked, he could play. I also. He played tennis, saxophone. So I was in the band. He played for the Jammers on the weekend, and I would see him out, and I loved the fact that he was an outside guy, because I grew up on a farm and he didn't, you know, he wasn't tied down in an office anywhere, and I would see him riding around or climbing poles and doing stuff, and it was just, he had the life.

[18:11] WARREN HERNDON: Same here. And I remember Mister Obi Barrick. He was my industrial arts teacher, Mister Lee Brickland.

[18:20] CALVIN PHILPOTTT: Yeah.

[18:21] WARREN HERNDON: Yes. And all of that. And I think it's so important for today, as we try to reach back and pull our history forward, is to understand that it is so important for students and children to see successful people. And then as I looked around, I remember completing my day at school and going home and internal on the tv. And of course, we saw the rich civil rights leaders, Martin Luther King, Jesse Jackson, Fannie Lou Hamer. And then here in Durham, we had Howard Clement, we had Ann Atwater, we had Chester Jenkins and all of those individuals who came from our communities that we could touch and we could feel. And you can find yourself in that. What are some of the other things that you remember? Some of our classmates, for an example, talk to us about the classmates that impressed you to go on and do great things.

[19:28] CALVIN PHILPOTTT: Well, there were so many great, great. Well, I was kind of a sports person. It never was that great, but it was. There were. I just take a baseball player, what was his name? Thomas Tom day. He could throw. I mean, he could turn. I mean, he wouldn't. He was almost like Louis Tiant, how he could turn all the way backwards on you and fire the ball. But then there was no places for these guys to go. We had all kind of basketball players that at the time that they came out, they were above me.

[20:14] WARREN HERNDON: Sam Jones, Arthur Ash.

[20:17] CALVIN PHILPOTTT: Well, they went on, I'm just talking right in here. But yeah, Sam Jones out of Central, there were all kinds of great. I'm just talking about people that I knew that didn't make it into the major leagues or to the NBA or NFL. My point today is that we. I love all of that. I really do. And I would let you give the history of all of those. But the reason that I said when I sat down was, I'm at now. I'm at now. I love all that was. But I know that we can maybe put it in a book or somewhere, but how do we keep now going without dying? That's what I sure.

[21:33] WARREN HERNDON: There'S no doubt that as cities and counties move and grow when we get into the 21st century, but there's a huge value, just like I'm sure you remember this back in the sixties and the seventies where we had the Durham Bulls baseball park. And I'm sure on Sundays there wasn't very much for people to do from your community. I grew up on Redwood Road and Gear street, and that was pretty close to the Durham baseball. The Durham Bulls baseball. Yeah.

[22:06] CALVIN PHILPOTTT: If you just keep straight up gears, Gears street, you're going to run right into it. Matter of fact, it's going dead end.

[22:13] WARREN HERNDON: And Durham, North Carolina, was one of the most progressive cities where on Sundays we could go and get a hot dog and we could have popcorn and go to the bull sessions. And there was a session for, of course, African Americans. There was a session for European Americans. But now, as you suggested from our earlier conversation, that Durham is multinational, multiethnic, and everything. And I still think that gives Durham a special advantage as we move into the 21st century in order to be able to be able to embrace everyone. And it's evident that that's how Durham is transitioning, just like most small southern city are traditionally transitioning with the RTP here today with Duke University, North Carolina central groin or whatever. So I'm hopeful of the future. I know that you are hopeful, and your background was in technology and those kinds of things. So all of this is coming together to make Durham a destination. That's how I see it.

[23:28] CALVIN PHILPOTTT: Right. But still, I'm not going to leave my position of right here, right now. This is where we all got our basic values came out of the church. Sure. All of your, all of your basic moral, ethnic, anything of value came out of here. I won't go in to start quoting scriptures about that. But without it, we lose so much because there's no. There's nothing that can hold the family together like the church. There's nothing that will hold a neighborhood together like the church. There's the. It is the rock. And that's why my whole focus is how to restructure, realign, rearrange everything possible in order to make this the place where things get done. Just like what we're sitting here doing today.

[25:04] WARREN HERNDON: Sure. Choosing. I'm in agreement with you, with everything that you're saying. And that's the reason why it is so important to choose a faith. But it's also so important that our families are connected. And that's why just across the street from Eric Moore, you know, you and I both received, our parents prepared us to come to the school. And then once we arrived here at school, we had the teachers, we had Mister McCaskill, we had Mister Cherry, we had Miss Jackson, mister Leak, all of those teachers that embraced us. And so, as Durham transitioned, and going back to your original question, that's how, and that's why we call it community. So, Merrick Moore, Cheek Road. And this community will always be a community as people continue to work. And like you said, choose a faith.

[26:04] CALVIN PHILPOTTT: And I agree with you wholeheartedly. I could just give you a quick story of Miss Jackson, who knew that one of her students had a night job working at Topps Drive in and would sometimes sleep too late. She would, on her way to school, drive her car up to his driveway, knock on his door, and his grandmother would let her in and come in. And then he's looking up and his teacher is looking in his face. It's time to be at school now that we will probably never see again.

[26:41] WARREN HERNDON: That's right.

[26:41] CALVIN PHILPOTTT: So those are some things that were great. There's plenty of stories. I'm sure I'm not the only one that could tell them, but that can't happen today because we just don't have that, that camaraderie. We don't have the ability because people are too. They're not open enough for that.

[27:15] WARREN HERNDON: What you're talking about, and we both know this, is that it's the microwave generation. Everybody want everything quick now and in a hurry. But even if we face those challenges, I'm a man of faith and a great optimist. We're going to persevere through it. And because that's what makes Durham Durham. That's what made Cheek Road and that's what made Mount Zora missionary Baptist Church the glue in this community. So I'm excited about our future. And again, I keep calling us back to the different names of our individuals who graduated from us. And then as we would look back over the history of Durham, there is a movie that was made about the history of dormant disc community, which is Ann Atwater. I forget the name of the movie. So we move on. There is a national movie that I can't recall right now that is made here in Durham and here in that community because Ann Atwater and Ce Phillips, Miss Atwater actually was born or lived within 3 miles of this church here. And CP Ellis, what lived here. So I'm excited about all of the things that we have and continue to move forward and stay involved in the work in our community as we continue to tell the stories about how we can move forth in the 21st century and make sure that we pass this information, this rich history along. I'm curious. It sounds as if you guys are talking about some rapid change in this community of new people coming in. Yes, I'm curious for folks that aren't familiar with this neighborhood, are people coming in because other people are leaving? Are people coming in because other people are being pushed out? Why are people coming in? Because what impacts does that have? It sounds like you're saying like new people are coming in, but we still need a sense of community. Is that what the things are, what's happening right now? The first thing is that you're pretty familiar with genderfication. So this community has been genderfied, such as Washington, DC, such as what is it? Oxon Hill, Maryland, Suitland, Maryland, et cetera, et cetera. So that is the backdrop on what's going on. And as Deacon Philpott is saying, that with these transition, how does this church survive, grow and flourish as it did in the sixties, seventies and eighties? And that's a challenge across this all communities.

[30:13] CALVIN PHILPOTTT: Well, it's basically for your question about whether or not people have been moved. No, these were open areas. Just like when you walk out the back door, if you look out this window, you look down, you'll see four or five new houses. Well, that used to be garden space, but the people who maintain those kind of gardens, who did that kind of work are no longer here anymore. The people who were left, they're going to go to the grocery store and get, they're not going to farm out that land, this land down that I was talking about where there are 300, their plan, 300 new homes that are coming that was basically just woods, woodland, woodland that I used to play in as a child. But what I'm concerned is how can, how can the church capture some of those people to bring them here with their new ideas, with their new. They, with whatever they have to come, that this becomes their home, that it becomes a place that their children can grow up the way I did with the sense of community and the church being the focal point or the central. Central point for the central point for the total community. For the total community. And you don't. And it can have programs. It can do things that you don't necessarily have to. Just like vacation Bible school. You don't have to be a Baptist to come and enjoy vacation Bible school for the children. But these areas that we're dealing with out here is just new development. New development.

[32:19] WARREN HERNDON: Why do you think that? Why do you think that's happening now? You know, why do you think people are choosing to live here now? Because the land has been, the property in Durham, North Carolina, has been devalued through genderfication. Can you just. So that we can pick it up good on the microphone. Can you keep looking that way?

[32:38] CALVIN PHILPOTTT: Okay. Yeah, we can keep looking at each other. Yeah.

[32:40] WARREN HERNDON: Yeah. Thank you. But, yeah, continue, please. Okay. Thank you. Yeah, so, and I think again, we both agreed that because of genderfication, because of urban renewal, that Durham has changed and of course, as Durham changed, as the community change of Merrick Moore, East Durham through urban renewal, through urban renewal and the new highways that have come. And as you very well know, and I think you agree also that highway 70, now at one time it was a small rural highway, and now it's a major intersection, a major transportation hub between Raleigh and Durham. And that's why that I've seen and I know you've seen this community change, such as you were just talking about how the number of houses that are coming in here and we're going to have individuals coming from international destination. We'll have people moving from people from.

[33:49] CALVIN PHILPOTTT: Everywhere and a lot of from the north.

[33:52] WARREN HERNDON: Yes, sir. Coming in from Ukraine, coming in from Afghanistan, moving in from Gwalup to south american honduras, et cetera, et cetera. And so we'll have the same struggles as other cities have seen. And I know that you're interested, like I'm interested in making sure that this community is vibrant the way we saw it when we were 14 and 15 years old. Reverend Doctor, could you talk a little bit more about that? You were saying highway was expanded upon and now it's easier than ever to get across these different cities. Right. But that's making it maybe so that a place like this, you can get into Durham easier. Right? Is that what you're sort of. Yeah. The Durham now at one time was a small city. Now Durham has moved from a small city to a medium size and is called the RTP, which is the research Triangle park. We're the major destination that you've seen it. And I'm sure because of the 20 and 30 years that you worked at your company, and I know the 20 and 30 years that I've worked at Duke, we saw individuals coming from Raleigh Durham, Richmond, Greensboro, et cetera, et cetera. And again, that has changed our neighborhoods in Durham and Cheek Road. Now, I'm a history buff, and I don't want to digress, but it is a value in saying this. But back in the 18 hundreds, it was called Fish Dam Road. Today is called Cheek Road, but it was the major passage from Granville county to Virginia. And so this same road now has grown and developed to where now it's the same road that leads into Virginia with Danville and all of the mass transit systems that are coming and how these systems are growing. And I'm sure that you've seen it also.

[35:55] CALVIN PHILPOTTT: Yes, as a matter of fact, you could have called it tobacco Rover because absolutely. As a young boy, that was the main traffic that went back and forth was loads of tobacco going to tobacco factories. And of course, the majority of the people who lived in the area worked either on the farms or in the factories, and none of that exists anymore.

[36:26] WARREN HERNDON: And remember, most of those, most of those relationships that we had with our teachers and we had with our other school colleagues, they were coming from small towns, Oxford, Butner, Cretemore, Johnston county, or whatever. And so with this transition that we have today, because Durham is a destination for all of the people that, and I know that you spent some time out of town and in Maryland. And of course, again, I shared that. I've been to 22 countries, 37 states, and see Durham moving forth. And that's why I'm so excited to see, on one hand, the growth and the development, but on the other hand, we're losing the small town atmosphere.

[37:13] CALVIN PHILPOTTT: As a matter of fact, it's pretty much lost because listening to you say about going to the Durham Bulls ballpark, getting the hot dogs for the price that we paid back then, it doesn't exist. Going downtown Durham anymore.

[37:30] WARREN HERNDON: Absolutely.

[37:31] CALVIN PHILPOTTT: You can't find it.

[37:32] WARREN HERNDON: I think the last summer, I haven't been this year, but last summer, to go to a Durham Bulls game, it's probably going to cost the family about $35, and that's on the low side. And back then, I came up with a family. It was nine of our family, and we probably all nine of us could go for maybe $15. So again, it's good to see us.

[37:54] CALVIN PHILPOTTT: Grow, but, well, I can remember going to the rigor theater, paying a dime to see a movie. Absolutely.

[38:00] WARREN HERNDON: Or downtown Durham at Royal ice cream parlor and getting a cone of ice cream for 25, $0.30 or whatever.

[38:08] CALVIN PHILPOTTT: Oh, yeah.

[38:09] WARREN HERNDON: And again, Durham was a major destination, as you and I have seen over the years, to go for family. And now it's more cosmetology, upper class individuals that are moving in because people from Chicago today hear about Durham. People from La Hear about Durham. People from Atlanta hear about Durham. And so the 21st century has been bright for you and bright for me, and I know it's going to be bright for the newcomers. But as we started out, Durham has tradition of transition, and our community here has transitioned. But remember that Mount Zoa Missionary Baptist Church has been the centerpiece for hundreds of years, and I know we're going.

[39:05] CALVIN PHILPOTTT: To be there, and we have to make, continue to make it a place of encouragement.

[39:10] WARREN HERNDON: Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, as always, sir, it is so great to worship with you, to grow up with you, and now to be elders in the community, to have conversations.

[39:23] CALVIN PHILPOTTT: Isn't that something?

[39:24] WARREN HERNDON: And think about just across the street how Merrick Moore, where it all started, kept us together then. And Mount Zora missionary Baptist church kept us together.

[39:36] CALVIN PHILPOTTT: And look at us, it's keeping us going. And that's all I want for this next group that's coming.

[39:43] WARREN HERNDON: We got 1 minute left. I was just curious. I know, Reverend doctor, you've been talking a lot about hope. That's maybe a good place to end on. Could maybe each of you share what gives you hope for this community in all of its change, what gives you hope for its future. I'm excited because I know that in faith comes hope and in hope comes a sense of value. And I know that you value, just like I value the hope of a bright future in this community, the hope of a bright, bright future from those heroes and sheroes who live before us. Because today in our elderly positions, we are now continuously to give hope to the individuals. As you stated, that comes to Sunday school, that comes to vacation bible study and that comes here to receive understanding of what faith means and that where we find hope.

[40:49] CALVIN PHILPOTTT: I agree. Now you can take that word hope. If I got 30 seconds for this. You got faith, hope and love. And of course the greatest is love. Now if we can continue to bring people into this body, into this church, into this union and teach love, faith and hope will follow right behind it.

[41:14] WARREN HERNDON: Absolutely. Well, I'm looking forward to next time, sir. And we're back again. Another 70 years.

[41:22] CALVIN PHILPOTTT: Another 70 years. I'll be here.