Warren Herndon and Clinton Cozart

[00:05] CLINTON COZART: My name is Clinton Cozart. My age is 71. Today is May 1, 2024. This is Mount Zora Missionary Baptist Church, 2400 Cheek Road. My interviewer is Doctor Herndon and we have been friends for about 15 years.

[00:26] WARREN L. HERNDON: My name is Reverend Doctor Warren L. Herndon. My age is 72. Today's date is May 1, 2024. The location is Mount Zora Missionary Baptist Church. The name of my interview partner is Clinton Cozart And our relationship is that we've known each other for ten to 1515 years. And I'm excited about this opportunity to interview, to have some conversation, et cetera, for the next 20 to 30 minutes. So, Clinton, let's talk a bit here. We've known each other ten or 15 years, but we basically both are from Durham. You and I known about this great church for 1015, 2030, 40, 50 years. And I attended Merritt Moore school. And I used to look at this church and I always wanted to because I grew up in a. My grandfather was the Reverend Presley Royston, and I grew up in a church. And so as a 14 to 15 year old individual, I told my mom and my dad that I wanted to come to the Mount Zohar Missionary Baptist Church. And of course, after I arrived here and over the last 25, 30 years, I found out that the reason that I'm here is because this is a part of my grandmother, Betty Austin sisters and brothers, was worshiping here with the church, with your family. So that's how you and I became connected. So what, what inspires you to continue to be here and this is your choice of church?

[02:13] CLINTON COZART: Well, basically I grew up in this church. I've been here all of my life. My mother, my grandfather and my aunts, they were all members of this church. My grandmother was a member of another church up in Person county. But I've been here, like I said, all of my life. And I real interested in Mount Zora Missionary Baptist Church. I served on several different roles here at the church and I'm delightful. I've met a lot of preachers in my coming in and going out here. So I just love the church.

[02:49] WARREN L. HERNDON: And same with you. My original church is Pettifer girl Baptist church. And then this would be, I would consider this as my second church. And most of my cousins and aunts, they all were members here. And over the years, like you, I've seen this church grow. The people here, they're a loving individual. And of course, as one of the visiting pastors here, associate minister and teach Sunday school and vacation Bible school. And we work on our next college tour. So the reason that I'm here is because we have an awesome amount of young people that surround in this neighborhood and everything. And I know that you grew up in Durham, like I grew up in Durham. And we used to play ball right across the street at the baseball field. And most of the teachers and the principals here were my favorite. And of course, back then, we had capital punishment. So mean that if we got in trouble that our teacher could take a strap or a rule and pop our hands. And I used to always recall about 1130, because the cafeteria was there right above my room. And I could smell the aroma as a student coming to the cafeteria for lunch. And we had the best of the best food. And I know that you come from a smaller community, just like this community. And you attended Hillside.

[04:24] CLINTON COZART: I attended Hillside as high school, junior high school. I went to Whitted and elementary school. I went to East End, which is on Dallas street in north Durham, where I grew up. And I have a lot of memories of North Durham. We had the Royal Ice Cream Company, and we had a supermarket right there across the street, what was called Broadway supermarket. And like, even back in the day, when segregation and everything started, the royal, you know, it didn't have but two doors. One door was for the black people to go in, and the other one was for the white. And on one side, where the white go in, they had booths where they could sit down and eat. And on the other side, where the blacks go in, we just had a door. We go in and order the food and had to come right back out of.

[05:22] WARREN L. HERNDON: I'm so glad that you shared that, because I recall royal ice cream parlor, the Broadway market, et cetera, et cetera. And I'm a history buff. And one of the things that I found out early on in research across this country is that the origin of the drive up window was because of, like you said, segregation. So african american individuals would frequent restaurants, stores, ice cream, polos. And you would come up to the window, you place your order, and then, of course, the person inside would serve you, and then you would go on about your way. But the Europeans, of course, could sit and dine and enjoy their meal. And we just celebrated the 100 years plus of the Carolina theater in Durham. And I know we talking just prior to our session here of how the shifts had occurred through segregation, integration, or what have you. And as we look back at the history of Durham, that there is a lot of opportunities for Storycorps and universities and nonprofit organizations to share this history. So that's why I'm so excited being here with a person like you who understand and know about the good old days.

[06:45] CLINTON COZART: The good old days, yes, I know when growing up as a kid, I was a sickly kid. I had asthma real bad. And if it wasn't for my grandmother, me and her, and I had to go to Duke hospital every day for me to get a shot for asthma. And I was a little fellow, but I come up out of the community, out here off of Glenn School Road. But we moved to North Durham when I was about four years old, and that's when I had asthma real bad. And we would go back and forth to Duke Hospital. And back then you rode the bus, you would pay your money at the front and go around to the back and go on the bus and go to Duke Hospital. And I can remember five points downtown, they had a great big stoplight, which was in the middle of the intersection. And there was about four different streets coming out into that stoplight. And back then, policemen, they walked the beat, and we said, I saw all of that. And, you know, me as a young kid, I was real curious. And, you know, they had silvers, woodworks downtown and stuff like that, but they had. Everybody couldn't go to the same bathroom. You had one that said color and one that said white. That's the way we had to. We had to do things back then. And, you know, as a young kid, I was always questioning why we have to do that, why we have to do that. They said, well, that's the way it is. We just have to go along with it.

[08:23] WARREN L. HERNDON: Absolutely. And I'm so glad that you shared that experience, because, again, I was born in Granville county, but moved to Durham county, and I was an underweight child. And those experiences over at Duke University, Duke Hospital, we had old Lincoln Hospital back in those days. African Americans would get their healthcare from Lincoln Hospital, and then European Americans would get their healthcare through Duke and Durham Regional Hospital back at that time, which was called the Old Watts hospital. And one of the things that concerned me today, and then we'll definitely go back to the inner city, Durham concerned me today, is that the disparities in healthcare. And I started working at Duke University. My mother and father worked there. And it concerned me that we would go to clinics, and then they had a clinic for african american people and then clinics for european american people. And most of the time, the clinics in the basement were for African Americans, and the clinics from the upper floors was for European Americans. And I'm certainly appreciative of your opening remarks and my opening remarks about segregation and how that affected us as a young child. And I would walk downtown Durham or walk downtown New York or Washington, DC, the same kinds of questions. And I guess the overarching question I had was, why did the african american or black schools. We would pass the buses in Durham, and of course, the european american schools had better books. We would get books, and the books had a name in it. And what they were actually doing was they were taking the books from the european american schools and sent it to the black or african american schools. So segregation was really difficult. It was a challenge, and I'm glad that you and I both was able to rise above it, but we still have some semblance of it today. And that's why it's so important for the story to be told about Durham, the story to be told about North Carolina, and the story to be told about this country, because as the OJs had a song in the seventies says, we can't keep living like this. Clint mentioned briefly sort of how folks talk to him about segregation. I'm curious if you had a similar experience with your elders and your parents saying, you know, this is just the way it is, or is that what those conversations sounded like mostly, or could you? Thank you. And I'm really glad that we got to this point, because I came from a rural sharecropper. Again, my foreparents were landowners, so we were not docile individuals. My grandmother in our community would tell the mayor what to do. She would tell everybody what to do. But as it relates to the question of what people told us about segregation, and that's just the way it is. My family was a little bit on the stronger side. Again, because my grandfather was a pastor, we would challenge authority, and we would ask the same question, we would get the same kind of answer. But I remember vehemently across the street in 1968, 130 in the evening, that's when Doctor King was assassinated. But we didn't understand what that big word meant. We just know he was killed at that particular time. And my class in the 8th grade, 13, 1415 years old, our heart sunk. And then from that, we went home to our old black and white tvs. And this was before cable, so the tv was pretty snowy. And then we saw the civil unrest, the civil disobedience in this country, as african american people were challenging the systems and the institutions to find our way, to be self determined people. And one of the reasons that my family moved here is for that reason alone, is because Durham was almost like we thought New York, where you could go and you could get job. You could attend North Carolina Central University. It was started in 1910. We had, at that particular time, we had Durham Business College, downtown Durham. We had the seizure beauty college. So Durham was a panacea for this country and for the state and for the county. And african american people were empowered to challenge authority. One of the first sit ins, of course, was not in Greensboro. And I know this is going to be controversial, but I'll say it anyway because I'm strong enough. It is at the Royal ice cream parlor in Durham, North Carolina. So you had Durham and Fayetteville and Greensboro. But I guess Greensboro received more of the attention nationally. But locally, some of the marches was on Durham Chapel Boulevard. It was called Holiday Inn sit ins. Downtown County, Woolworth county was there. And I know you saw some of that yourself.

[14:02] CLINTON COZART: Yeah, we had Ben Ruffin, right? Yeah. He was one of the organizers there in Durham at the time. You know, I learned a lot from him. You know, he was a real nice guy and everything. And it was when you see Ben Ruffin, there was. What was the other name?

[14:25] WARREN L. HERNDON: I was just blank on it myself. It was Ben Ruffin. Was it Walter? Not Walter. It was. He is now the superintendent in Kansas City, Missouri. Ben Ruffin. And Atwater.

[14:42] CLINTON COZART: Yes, and Atwater.

[14:43] WARREN L. HERNDON: Howard Clement.

[14:44] CLINTON COZART: Yes.

[14:47] WARREN L. HERNDON: And his name escaped him. But let's keep talking, and we know.

[14:50] CLINTON COZART: We'Re going to come up with Ann Atwater. I was in school with her daughter, and we visit her house lots of times. And we grew up together. We had fun and everything. And I remember Ann at water had a confrontation with the Klan. What was his name?

[15:09] WARREN L. HERNDON: CP Ellis.

[15:10] CLINTON COZART: CP Ellis.

[15:11] WARREN L. HERNDON: I know them very well. You go ahead and tell the story.

[15:13] CLINTON COZART: That I'm going to pick it up. Yes, they had a confrontation with the Klan, and they was going back and forth. But he finally gave in to Miss Ann Atwater.

[15:24] WARREN L. HERNDON: Yes, sir.

[15:25] CLINTON COZART: Yeah, he finally gave in to her.

[15:27] WARREN L. HERNDON: Well, as a matter of fact, I'm so glad that you brought that up because when I was about 22 years old, just out of undergraduate from the number one university, Eastern Mississippi, which is North Carolina Central University, and I was attending the Durham committee on the affairs of black people, we also had the Durham business and professional chain. These were organized organizations that started back in the thirties, forties and fifties. And I met Miss Atwater and CP Ellis. And if my memory served me correctly, the Klan was burning crosses out in North Durham. And CP Ellis, he was the grand wizard. Because of the changes and the unrest that was occurring downtown Durham, where people were challenged, the authority of public accommodation, employment. And so somehow the two of them met. And there's a movie that's called what's the name of the movie made of Durham?

[16:33] CLINTON COZART: I can't call it, I'll tell you.

[16:36] WARREN L. HERNDON: But at any rate, they had a charette because during integration, they needed to decide what was Durham at that particular time. It was Durham Public Schools for black students and then Durham public schools for white students. And there was a charette. There was hale and CpLs and Atwater. That's where they met. It's coming back to me now. So they met there during this charette of renaming the schools and renaming some buildings here. And that's how they befriended each other. And they began to move toward the center in order for Durham to be a community that welcomed all people. And so. Yes, and I'm still trying to remember the other strong advocate. Okay. We also had. We had in North Durham, mister, at the church, which is on the street recorder. What's the name?

[17:41] CLINTON COZART: Reverend Davis. Davis. Reverend Davis, yes.

[17:46] WARREN L. HERNDON: So we had a variety of strong african american leaders right there in East Durham, a mile away from this community, which was the cheek Road community.

[17:57] CLINTON COZART: Yeah. Reverend Davis. Reverend Moseley.

[18:00] WARREN L. HERNDON: Yes, sir.

[18:01] CLINTON COZART: And then we had the one who started soul city. McKissick.

[18:09] WARREN L. HERNDON: Floyd mckissick.

[18:10] CLINTON COZART: Floyd mckissick. He grew up in. He was in North Durham. He lived on Roxburgh street in North Durham when I was growing up. But they moved to Seoul city to get it started.

[18:22] WARREN L. HERNDON: Right. And I'm so glad you brought that up. Also been a history buff, and I've done a lot of research, traveled to 22 countries, 37 states, and found out that Doctor King had come here five times. As a matter of fact, Doctor King was scheduled to go to Nashville, Tennessee, I think, where he was assassinated. And he was on his way to Durham and was called here to Durham by the Durham business and professional chain. He also spoke what was called trade week at that particular times in the african american community. We had the tobacco companies that was coming here. We had Duke University coming here. And the brickwork and the block work was done by African Americans. So the trades were very popular here. That was the middle class. The middle class African American moving from surrounding counties came here because of brickwork, plumbing, carpentry, electrician, and H Vac. So that's what the Durham business professional chain was. And then, as you mentioned, the genesis of soul city came from the strong advocacy under Floyd McKissick. Because of these networks, we had. And Doctor King was coming here to Durham. And that was an exciting time for people to be empowered here.

[19:54] CLINTON COZART: Yeah, we had the school here, which was named after the Spaldwin CC. Spalding School.

[20:00] WARREN L. HERNDON: Yes, sir.

[20:00] CLINTON COZART: We have that school. And we have.

[20:04] WARREN L. HERNDON: What's the other North Carolina central?

[20:07] CLINTON COZART: Was it James E. Sheppard and the Clemens? We had Clemens. Yes, we had the Clemens here. We had a lot of people. And they were partly part of the Black Wall street, which was on Parish street at the mechanics and Farmers bank. They called that the Black Wall street.

[20:25] WARREN L. HERNDON: Absolutely. And as a matter of fact, I have to say it because part of it is by name. The first african american or black library in this state was named the Stanford L. Warren Library. It started out in the basement of one of the largest progressive churches still here, which is white Rock Baptist church. So we did not even have a public library. Even though african american people were paying taxes, there was not a public library. And so we had Stanford L. Warren. And then also, you remember, about a block away from here, we had the first enslaved cemetery.

[21:05] CLINTON COZART: Cemetery, yes.

[21:06] WARREN L. HERNDON: There was almost a thousand individuals. And the cemetery was discovered, and we upkeep it. And now there's over a thousand individuals that buried there. And some of the names of the heroes and sheroes that we call in now buried there as their final resting place. So Durham was just a great place, lots of history. And it's so important for us to keep this history alive, especially as we go in the 21st century.

[21:35] CLINTON COZART: Yes. And we had a pediatrician, a black pediatrician, Doctor William A. Cleveland.

[21:41] WARREN L. HERNDON: That's right.

[21:41] CLINTON COZART: Which he was a real good friend of mine. He was one of my main role models. And we took care of him, myself and my wife up until his passing. And his wife was the main secretary at North Carolina Mutual.

[21:59] WARREN L. HERNDON: Absolutely. Absolutely. And I'm certainly bringing that up because when I graduated from North Carolina Central University, the first african american intern student was doctor Charlie Johnson. So you had African Americans coming here at that particular time because, of course, with healthcare disparity or whatever. And Duke University now over the last 20, 30, 40 years, are recognizing African Americans that contribute greatly to healthcare and health disparity. And then we, of course, had the old Watts hospital. So we've just seen a lot of things that turn itself back to history as we move forward. And especially as you so eloquently stated, some of the first doctors across the state had office practices here in Durham.

[22:57] CLINTON COZART: Yes, yes. Doctor Cleveland. He was a real good friend of mine. I loved him to death. He was my mother. She worked for him, she was very instrumental in some of his businesses and stuff like that.

[23:16] WARREN L. HERNDON: And just to shift gears, and I know you remember this part, on Saturday, Saturdays and Sundays, Monday through Friday, we were at school at Merrick Moore and Hillside and Durham High, etcetera. But on the weekends we would go to the Durham Bulls game, you remember with the old Durham baseball park at. Again, you had African Americans on one side, European Americans on the other side, and you had an opportunity to go and get the hot dog, popcorn or whatever, to walk downtown Durham. And to see Durham at that particular time was just awesome. And to see the camaraderie in the african american community, because at that particular time we had what we call the black middle class. Again, on until the fifties, sixties and the seventies, Durham were growing fast. We had neighborhoods, we had the south side neighborhood. We had the Hayti neighborhoods. We had bluefield over in North Durham. And I'm trying to think of some of the neighborhoods we had in south and West Durham and over by Duke University, what we call the West End.

[24:27] CLINTON COZART: West End, yes, that's right.

[24:29] WARREN L. HERNDON: So we could see into the early seventies, eighties, these neighborhoods began to grow. And then of course, as this city went into the year 2000, some of those neighborhoods, and the cost of value of these properties began. And then we had outside people moving in. And then we talked a little bit about this the other day about the infrastructure, which is I 85 leading in out of Richmond, Virginia, Atlanta, and then going down east, you have I 40. So Durham began to transition. And then we have what we call the research triangle park. We have international companies coming here. And so that was the genesis of the growth, development and the decline of the african american community through the urban renewal. Transportation of urban renewal affecting highway 131.

[25:33] CLINTON COZART: 47.

[25:33] WARREN L. HERNDON: Yeah, 147. And you remember the old days before those highways, that Durham was an intact community.

[25:42] CLINTON COZART: Yes, it was. And 147, we had a difference of communities like we had. What was that the.

[26:03] WARREN L. HERNDON: Let me try to help you a little bit with it. And I'm so glad you brought that piece up too. Also Durham. And like most southern cities, you had tracks to the east, which would be African Americans tracks to the west. The train track divided the city. And so as urban renewal had come through Durham, they specifically designed Chicago, Detroit, New York. And we had the african american communities, like I've already named the south side neighborhoods. But the downtowns began to grow because that was on, I guess, the more eastern side. And that's why you see the growth and development from housing and apartment buildings or whatever.

[26:47] CLINTON COZART: Okay, now we had the Petrogrove street. That was the black. We had the Rieger theater, the Biltmore Hotel. We had the green candle restaurant. We had Mister Jones, who was a donut man, his own pastries and stuff like that. We had watch repair. I can't think of the man's name, but he was in a wheelchair, and he repaired watches and all kinds of stuff like that. And we had different kinds of hot dog stands. We had St. Joseph church. And then we had Scarborough Funeral Home, which used to be down on Pettigrew street, right beside which we call a grocery store, was Peter Pan. Yes, sir, we had all of that. And it was striving neighborhood and everything. I remember on Saturdays, my uncle would come by and pick me up and have his three sons. We would go to the Riga theater.

[27:46] WARREN L. HERNDON: Absolutely.

[27:47] CLINTON COZART: Look at movies all evening long.

[27:50] WARREN L. HERNDON: And I'm so glad. I'm so glad you brought that up. Because Durham, we had two movie theaters, we had two hotels, and then we had a nightclub. And that's where James Brown, Aretha Franklin, the four tops, all of them had come through Durham, because again, there was a thriving middle class that we had, and we had over 125 african american businesses. Through my research and study and history, that was here in Durham. And again, that was the thriving part of Durham. And people from around the country would come here. George Washington Carver, Martin Luther King, Frederick Douglass have come here. And all of them saw Durham as a growing in development. And as a matter of fact, the reason how, for my research, that this was called Haytaide, because there was a group of african american businessmen who had gone to Haiti, one of the first free countries in the entire western hemisphere, and they had come here from Haiti. And they sent us back the cross on the top of the roof at White Rock. They sent that back as a stone, as a metal cross to Durham, recognizing Durham, that Durham were moving ahead in the 20th century with the black and african american advancement.

[29:38] CLINTON COZART: Yeah, one of the clubs that we had was the stallion club.

[29:43] WARREN L. HERNDON: Absolutely.

[29:44] CLINTON COZART: That's where all the entertainers come in there. And we had another one on Ramsey Street. I think they call it the Brown Derby.

[29:51] WARREN L. HERNDON: Yes, sir.

[29:52] CLINTON COZART: And the one that was over top of the grocery store. I can't think of the name of that one. That was down on Fable street, right back in there where the Carolina time used to be. I can't think of the name of that club. It's been so long.

[30:14] WARREN L. HERNDON: I'm so glad that you brought up the Carolina Times, because the Carolina Times was one of the less than 100 newspapers that we have. And the Carolina Times would cover the history advancement of the black businesses in Durham, because the Harold sun, which was the white newspaper, oftentimes did not cover the history or the advancement in Durham. And so as a student in high school, in our libraries, we could go to the library and read the black newspapers from over and Carolina Times. The family ran the newspaper until they were called home for over 100 years right here in Durham and Scarborough and Hargit and all of the black businesses that wanted to advertise to the african american community, it was done so in the Carolina time.

[31:18] CLINTON COZART: Yes. And I know in East End school, we had a librarian that would come once a week. I think her name was Miss Royal. Yeah, she would come and tell us all about the different books we could get from the library and all kinds of stuff like that. And then, too, by us being in elementary school, we could bank at mechanics and farmers. They would come by every week and we would take up money. They would get you your own bank account, your own bank book, and you could put however much money you want to in your savings account each week.

[31:56] WARREN L. HERNDON: I'm glad you brought that up also, because we had North Carolina Mutual Life insurance company that was started in the late 18 hundreds, and we're talking fifties, sixties and seventies, was the largest owned and operated african american business in the world in Durham, North Carolina. And today, the building still stands. And it was the panacea of the financial industry because we had North Carolina mutual, we had mutual savings and loans, and there was a variety of banks that they have. And I think at one time in their day, they had about ten satellite offices. So african american. As the middle class was growing flourishing, African Americans then began to bank and invest and to see all the things that are going. And this is exciting time to be able to have conversations about the history, the legacy, the life of african american communities in Durham, North Carolina, and the black Wall street as we grew up and saw all of this around us. So I'm curious, it was explained to me the other day that, you know, the highway and urban renewal project was explained to folks in high tide as a good idea that would help those businesses, hey, this will be better for you. And obviously, that didn't happen at all. I'm curious, in the decades since, how do you continue to engage with local governments when they propose a good idea that says, this is going to be good for you? Where is that distrust, you know, in new developments? How are you guys able to really continue to advocate for really what's best for this community? I am so glad that you brought that up, because from my research and the history, it was done across this country. It was by design. It was by design. It was by design. And it was the largest infrastructure bill passed in the history of this country. So they, they sold a design that it would be in the best interest for african american businesses and african american cities to partner through urban renewal. And it was a federal, state and local granting process. And they went into cities, surgically removed the african american businesses, and they said, if you move between twelve to 24 to 36 months, we're going to rehab the land or the businesses, and then we will bring you back in into the process and your businesses will grow. And it was called Ten City t I nd Tin City. It was the name of the project. And so again, they surgically removed the african american businesses and they started the urban renewal process and they sent the businesses to this tin city, which was a warehouse. And it, instead of the twelve months, the 14 months, 24 months to 34 months, and the 44 months, they never brought the businesses back. So how do we find trust? We haven't found trust because this has been 35, 40 years. It's still going on today in Durham and across this country. And again, I've traveled to 37 countries, I mean, 2037 states. And it is today, it's called genderfication. They're gentrifying across this country and their land is cheap. So the outside investor come in, invest in the land, build new buildings, and run African Americans out of their land ownership.

[36:13] CLINTON COZART: Now we have investors calling us two and three times a day, yes, sir, asking us, I want to buy your property. I know they call me two and three times a day, they want to buy my property, but they don't want to give you what it's worth or what it's worth to you. They want to want it cheap, and then they'll build houses or build whatever, own it. And the prices are outrageous. You know, you a $700,000 house where they can build in what, maybe a month or two to three weeks.

[36:50] WARREN L. HERNDON: Yes, sir.

[36:50] CLINTON COZART: And out the property where we maybe, what, 30 years ago, 50 years ago, might have bought it for $20,000. And now look how. Look what kind of price they are getting for it. Now. I know, like, I grew up in north Durham. I said I lived on Canal street and Gray street, okay? Right around the corner from me on Mallet Avenue. I had a friend that they lived on in the corner, on the corner house there on the corner, mellow and Roxburgh. They come in and bought that house, I don't know how much they bought it for, but they built a little straight up house there, three stories. It looked like a matchbox. And they wanted seven, $800,000 for the house. And I looked at, this is outrageous. This is outrageous. But, you know, you going through now you see where they're putting up condos everywhere, houses. And I remember as a little boy, you could go walk anywhere. I remember, I think I was about seven years old when I first started going downtown, paying bills for my mother and my aunt. I had an aunt that, she used to work at the dry cleaners there on the corner of Roxboro. And what's that Holloway street that comes across there used to be the new method dry cleaner. She worked there and she. Through the week or on the weekend. Sometimes they would tell me, I don't feel like going downtown. Can you go pay my bills? They didn't ask me. I said, mama, mine. I said, I can go pay your bills. They said, you know how to go downtown? I said, sure. I go downtown with my mom every day. And I was about seven years old, you know, going downtown. But you can't do kids like that today.

[38:47] WARREN L. HERNDON: That's right.

[38:48] CLINTON COZART: You cannot send them downtown to pay no bills or with any kind of money in their pocket because they subject to get robbed. Somebody take away from them. Kids could get kidnapped or anything. It's different today than it was back in the day because people disciplined children back in the day. Your grandparents, if you did something wrong, your neighbor called your mama, told them, say such and such a person did it, that you whoop him. And then when you got back home, you got another whooping. So you kept everything under control because they. People didn't play. Nowadays, you better not whoop nobody's kid. I'll say nothing to her. You can't. You can't even say nothing to a kid. You don't know what they might. They might pull out a gun. They might do anything to you.

[39:39] WARREN L. HERNDON: That's right.

[39:40] CLINTON COZART: You just have to be careful what you say and what you do and how you act.

[39:45] WARREN L. HERNDON: So we're pretty much at time. But I did want to end with maybe one last question. Either of you know, what gives you all hope to move forward, to continue? Or either that question maybe, or the question of what needs to change in the neighborhood. And how can we ensure those changes aren't used for further gentrification? I don't know if one of those sounds like a better question to you. All you want to do, first you want me to go first.

[40:20] CLINTON COZART: You can go first.

[40:22] WARREN L. HERNDON: Let me take the question about. I rather asked her which one give me hope. Yeah, let me. Let me stick with that one. Which give me hope. What gives me hope is to know that african american people, black people, are resilient. Just as though we sat here recording ourselves in this church that is 100, 5159 years old, my faith. And as I sat here today with my good friend, who I've known 1520 years, and what I've known about this church for about 50 years and set it on the front row is that we serve an almighty God. And what almighty God we serve. And as long as we stay, stay with our faith as long as we stay as people of love, as long as we stay, which is straight out the Bible say that we are our brothers and sisters keeper, then we're going to be okay. Because when it's all said and done, it's by our faith that we seek to live. It's by our faith that we seek to share and coexist with each other and the common bond of a city, the common bond of a community, and the common bond of a people. So I am hopeful, I'm resilient, and I'm going to continue to live by my faith that we will survive and we will thrive in the 21st century.

[42:19] CLINTON COZART: Yo, what we gonna have to do is everybody's gonna have to work together to get things on board. We gonna have to stay in prayer, read our bibles, and do the things that are right and lift each other up instead of trying to tear each other down, help each other out. You know, that's the best thing we can do, is help each other out, lift each other up and talk to the children, you know, tell them how things used to be until. And, you know, keep them on track. You know, violence is not the answer. Balance is not going to get you anywhere but trouble. And, you know, some of them, sometimes after they are incarcerated for. For a while, they become the seed of light, and they wish they had a thought before they what they done. But like I say, we gonna have to stay on them. We gonna have to stay on board. We gonna have to lift our children up. We gonna have to bring them to church just like our grandparents brought us to church. They tell you, you stay here in my house, you going to church on Sunday morning, you getting up, going to church, and we got to do that. That's the only thing that's going to bring us about. Thank you both.

[43:41] WARREN L. HERNDON: Give me 10 seconds and I'll pause the recording.