Wayne Curtis and Joycelyn Curtis

[00:05] WAYNE CURTIS: Hello. My name is Wayne Curtis I am 67 years old. Today's date, October 26, 2023, in Mobile, Alabama. I will be interviewed today by my wife of 41 years, Jocelyn Curtis

[00:26] JOYCELYN CURTIS: Hello. My name is Joycelyn Curtis I'm 66 years old. Today's date is October 26, 2023. We're in Mobile, Alabama, and my partner's name is my spouse of 41 years, Wayne Curtis Wayne you worked over 35 years as a laboratory scientist, and now you have a business. The mobile, Alabama, Africa town drummers, known as mad, teaching african drumming to various groups. How were you able to make that transition?

[01:13] WAYNE CURTIS: Well, I've been drumming since I was a young kid. At what age do you think you started elementary school? About eight, nine years old. I used to beat on everything, and it used to irritate my parents, and they used to stop beating on, you know, but I realized, too, that was something I was doing to relax me, because I like rhythm. And once I went to Booker T. Middle school and joined the band, I became. Learned to play the drums. So that's where everything began, right there.

[02:00] JOYCELYN CURTIS: Okay, so it's been a long journey in playing the drums. Why did you start an LLC instead of a nonprofit organization?

[02:12] WAYNE CURTIS: Well, my main goal is to teach young people, since we're in America, this is a capitalist society, and they. I try to get them to do the marketing. They do the pamphlets, the social media, advertising, and hopefully I get someone to do the accounting for me. And that way they learn business, giving them business opportunities. But at the same time, learning drumming and drumming is just a vehicle I use to get them interested. And that's, you know, that's what really got me interested. And especially during the 68 69, when I heard the last poets, when I was playing congers, that got me to switch over to Congress. Instead of just playing snail drawing, bass drawing, I started playing congas. And then afterwards, I started learning. Since I am a geek laboratory scientist, you know, I always have to research everything. I had to do the research of drumming. That's when I realized that the african tradition, drumming, started to interest me.

[03:37] JOYCELYN CURTIS: What is one main thing that you've learned in your journey? Learning about the african drums that stood out, that kept you motivated to continue on your endeavor?

[03:57] WAYNE CURTIS: I ask people, especially young people, cause you talk about history, and right now, anything you say about history, people go into. They just go off the deep end. One thing I talk about is the stone old rebellion. When the Spaniards were in control of Florida and the British and had the other parts of Carolinas, the slaves in the stone old river area, decided to leave and go down to Florida because they could be free. And they started an uprising, and they were burning plantations. There were many uprisings, and they realized as they were moving down other plantations, slaves were joining, and they realized they were communicating with the drums. See, people think we play drums. You know, you don't beat drums. You play drums. Cause there's a slab, there's a tone, there's a bass, there's a roll. Kind of like moss code, when you dot, dot, dash, dash, you know, when you create a letter if you be in the military. I used to be in the navy, but so you send encoded messages within playing the drum, even though they were from different tribal regions. And then once the master found out that they were communicating with drum, it became against the law in America for blacks to play hand drum. Now, I always heard that. So that was one motivator for me, because that was usually our way of rebellion, just like bomba down in Puerto Rico, you know, those were rebellious. When I was down in Haiti, when I heard the rhythms, I can hear the sika and hit the different rhythms down throughout Gua Wong ko. All those rhythms, most of those people don't realize are rebellious rhythms.

[06:00] JOYCELYN CURTIS: Okay, so, I hear you saying that the history of white drumming during particular eras has motivated you to share that history with young people, as well as teach them business skills, maybe becoming entrepreneurs themselves.

[06:21] WAYNE CURTIS: Well, the motto is history plus knowledge equal future.

[06:28] JOYCELYN CURTIS: Would you explain that to me?

[06:30] WAYNE CURTIS: Okay, you have to know your history plus knowledge, not education. Education mean, you just been through a education system. You went, you know, like, I had to go and get a bachelor's degree in order to be a clinical laboratory scientist. I had to go to cytology school in order to work in cytopathology. Okay, so you have to do those things. But once you graduate, what is that ceremony called? Commencement. Which is what?

[07:05] JOYCELYN CURTIS: The ending.

[07:07] WAYNE CURTIS: Ending. Commencement or beginning or the beginning.

[07:11] JOYCELYN CURTIS: Yeah.

[07:12] WAYNE CURTIS: So that's the beginning of knowledge. So education system just told you. Just teach you how to research knowledge. So, since I've been researching knowledge back to me being a geek. Cause I used to be bullied quite a bit for being geekish because I like science. But, you know, usually when I'm playing and I start with the clave in western music, they call it the three two clave that came over from the west coast of Africa to Cuba as slaves. And the indigenous people of that island layered their music over what they were doing with the african drums. And then the troubadours of Spain, they told their story by with the mandolins and the guitars, and they lay out that music over top. That's why we have, what we call today Afro Caribbean latin music. That's why I call it Afro caribbean music, because those rhythms are now, in order to understand that, you have to know that's your heritage. And then that came into the mainland. Those same rhythms that we played in the fields, jazz, blues, hip hop, all that is based on.

[08:38] JOYCELYN CURTIS: Okay, what has been in your business? Biggest challenge in starting Mat and if you had to do it all over again, what would you want to do differently?

[08:59] WAYNE CURTIS: Well, here in Mobile, I wasn't really accepted with the. Even when I sit and just played McCongas sitting in with some of the jazz bands they like in Atlanta. When I go to Atlanta, DC area, I played there. They waited on me. Oh, you brought your drum. Let's play here. They weren't. And I played across the country, everywhere, especially when I was in the navy. Wherever I was stationed, I would go play with that group. If I'm in California, in San Diego, Balboa park, that's where we go play. And if you're in San Antonio, you go play. You learn that they are hispanic rhythms that they play. New York, you play those rhythms. DC, come down here. They look at you like, what are you doing? So what I decided to do is focus on the young people, okay? Because they are more susceptible to people that are for real. For example, I was playing the drum, and we were doing this rhythm. I think we were doing cuckoo at the time, which is a celebration, which is a nigerian rhythm. And the young girl, she hold her head back. Held it back and just start playing. And she was just into it. Then a young guy, he started playing. At the end of it, I said, what were you feeling while you were playing? She said, nothing. She gets it. Because there's a thing called therapeutic drumming. Rhythm is therapeutic. I go to the beach and just listen to the waves come in, you know, and count them as if I'm counting rhythm. Come in, go out, come in, go out. That's one and two, and one, and two. By that time, the seagulls go by and they quirk on three, one and two, quick. By that time, the fish on the distance jump in every other rhythm. So now you got the fish, you got the bird, you got the waves, you got the children in the background laughing. Now, you heard one throw the ball to me. That's rhythm. And that relaxes me, okay? Because within our brain, that parent, what's the first rhythm you remember? Cause you know that. Cause I always talk about it.

[11:55] JOYCELYN CURTIS: I'm out of blank.

[11:57] WAYNE CURTIS: Your mother's heartbeat.

[11:58] JOYCELYN CURTIS: Oh, yeah. Yes, yes, right.

[12:02] WAYNE CURTIS: Your mother's heartbeat. Now, because of so much abstract information and so much distractions, and in our lives, we forget about the basic core things like my mother's heartbeat. Not only your mother's heartbeat, but the rhythmic pattern of her voice. Now, here come that geek part of me while you in utero, you in a liquid environment. Sound travels faster in a solid and a liquid environment than it does in the air. Remember when our son, Imari was born? Of course you remember. You gave birth. I mean, duh, almost 14 hours. Yeah, yeah. But remember the monitors going off? The nurse. Two nurses grabbed them. They was doing. I forget what they call the procedure where they test the urine and they test your hearing and they test doing all those things. Then all of a sudden, the doctor was talking loud, wanted something to do. And then they were getting ready. Oh, everyone was talking. And you said in a nice whisper, let me see him. And he immediately, with all that noise in the background, turned to you. Cause he knew your voice, so.

[13:30] JOYCELYN CURTIS: And that's just like a mother knows when her child could be in another room, right. Or whatever. They know the child's cry.

[13:37] WAYNE CURTIS: Yeah, that rhythmic pattern. But see, we get distracted as we get older and start, you know, we forget about those simple things. Yeah. And I. And I try to get people to feel that as I'm drumming or as I'm teaching the rhythm. And once they get it, they start smiling. Cause it's like, oh, yeah. So I tell them, this is a no judgment zone. We don't think about anything but the rhythm. I'm telling you, that makes sense.

[14:09] JOYCELYN CURTIS: And I remember hearing you play for the first time when we were in college. You had written a poem and you recited. It was a black history program, and you had written a poem, and the folk thought you wrote it to me. And it was a very.

[14:31] WAYNE CURTIS: Did I know you then? Were we a couple then or. We were just.

[14:37] JOYCELYN CURTIS: We were just.

[14:38] WAYNE CURTIS: Just starting to know each other.

[14:39] JOYCELYN CURTIS: Just starting to know each other.

[14:40] WAYNE CURTIS: Well, it could have been to you.

[14:44] JOYCELYN CURTIS: But all our time together, the drum has been a very important part of your life.

[14:52] WAYNE CURTIS: Right?

[14:52] JOYCELYN CURTIS: Every place we've lived, you've had your drums, and you would escape going to play those drums or, as you said, relaxed to alleviate stressors.

[15:05] WAYNE CURTIS: And I appreciate you for that. Whatever house we purchase, wherever we live, that's your house. Just give me a room. Our home in Atlanta with my drums in the basement. I go down there and play. You know, I. You know, if I'm coming home from work, had a hard day, work. I'm stressed out. Marriage has been on my nerve, and I can't do anything. And, you know, I go back, get my drums, and just slap pop. Play the bass, play the drums. See, at that point, you are releasing anxiety, stress. Cause all I hear is one and two e and or three and four and one. And that's what I'm gonna play. One and two, e and or three and four and one. And now on the fore end, I might do a bass. One and two, e and a three and bass. Pop, pop, digga, digga, pop, pop, boom, dig deep. So now. So now, my brain, whatever went on during the day, the guy that cut me off on the 285, whatever, I. All that's gone now. I can just play every night. Then I might even throw on some coltrane or something just to, you know.

[16:30] JOYCELYN CURTIS: And that's been a major difference for us in our relationship. Because you love all genres of music, jazz. But I don't like straight ahead because I. It's too noisy for me. But we've been able to, in our relationship, continue to let each person be their own person as far as music and so forth.

[17:03] WAYNE CURTIS: Right? Because, you know. And you have to understand, western music is polyharmony, okay? What we call western music, what we call music Austria, european, you know, they play the woodwinds might be playing one, then the strings playing another thing, or then the brass doing something different. They come together. That's polyharmony. African music is polyrhythm. We were playing today, we played certain rhythms. Some of those rhythms had four parts of. You got the doom dooms playing a part, then the Jim Bay one, Jim Bay two, Jim Bay three. And they all playing a different part, but they come together like a puzzle. And that's what we call polyrhythms. Okay? And once you get in tune and understand what's going on, you really enjoy, you know, like monk. I know you don't like monk. You tolerate it. But see, Mark will play a chord and then he'll play it again. Then he'll come back around. He might just leave one note out. And you was anticipating that note, and he said, oh, okay. Then he'll come back around. Instead of playing. He might play that one note, but he'll skip the one next to it. And plus he hitting it with a kind of. Instead of just playing the piano, he kind of played sometime with a percussion feel like he hitting the keys. And everybody was like, well, what is Mark doing now we have schools of music name after Mark, you know, because he understands that percussive feel also along with the music. And that's the part that moves us. That's that inner what they say down in the Caribbean, that boom, that boom that you know. And you can't teach that, you know, like Mallory's son, Ezekiel, right? I was playing Guai one co on my conga and I went boom boom, boom, boom, tacit tie, boom, boom, boom, boom, takata, boom boom. By the fourth time, he said, mm. Cause he knew I was getting ready to go back over. I was like, oh, you can't teach that. So what I could do is teach him the rudiments and the patterns. But he already got to. He already got the field. That's automatic.

[19:37] JOYCELYN CURTIS: I know some of the places that you played, I think more so two churches, you started doing a lot of playing there. Also festivals, historical events. But how would you say the transition from being a scientist to an entrepreneur who plays music, who volunteers, who works with kids, how have you been able to transition again from the science mindset to a business person, again, a person who's working with all kinds of groups of people?

[20:23] WAYNE CURTIS: One thing science teach you is to be focused, straight ahead. Focus and empirical evidence. And how can I prove it otherwise? It becomes theory. You know, you can work on that. But at least a good example, I was doing a urinalysis, a simple urinalysis. Take a simple urinalysis. And it was negative, but it had kind of a cloudy look to it. So I. Since it was negative, I was not supposed to do a microscopic on it anyway, just report what I had. But since some detail, I said, let me just look at this anyway. And I did a microscopic slide and reviewed it, and it was heavily bacteria. The dipstick that I used to do the urinalysis, only pick up gram negative bacteria. So I went in and talked to the doctor and said, well, I'm going to go ahead and send this in to microbiology because you got a negative report. But there is many bacteria on this patient. That's probably what's wrong. He said, well, it came back negative on the dipstick. I said, yeah, but that's only pick up gram negative bacteria. Because of experience and knowing what's going on. I decided do a microscopic anyway. And he was like, I didn't know that. I, like, well, that's. There's something to do, but that so detail like that. So when I'm drumming and the kids love it because it's relaxing to them, you know, the boys and girls Club, the recreation center, a hope recreation center over in Africatown. The one down off Michigan Avenue. Right there next to the projects right there. See, those kids are stressed out. So if I tell them to play just the slab, and I want this group to play the tone and this group to play the bass. And the first thing we talk about is not drumming. Guess the first thing we talk about. Discipline. You have to be disciplined to play exactly what I tell you, period. The next time we meet, guess what we talk about. Listening. So if I'm playing one rhythm and you playing another rhythm, I have to listen to what you're doing, because they fit together like a puzzle. Even if you make a mistake, I have to stay disciplined and stay what I am. Don't. Then you can come back around and change that mistake. Okay. Then the next thing we talk about is respect. I have to respect your level of drumming, no matter where you are. Then I could play around and with you where you are, same thing, like human interaction. If we don't respect each other or listening to each other, we get what we have today. What's going on? You don't want me to get politics, but you got, I don't care if you conservative, liberal, white, black, you know, what's the character of your heart? Can we communicate? We were just out here earlier today playing as they were preparing, and we sat up. And the people with StoryCorps and Alabama public Radio, they was out there setting up their equipment, doing what they do. So I decided just gave everybody a percussive instrument, the shaker, the bear, the clive. We played the drums. I put one of them on one doom doom drum, and guess what? We made music. We were jamming then I think it was Carlo Finn said, did you see how we communicated just that quick? Yeah, because we had respect for each other, and we were disciplined to play where we were, and we were listening to what each other was doing. I had a good time, and I'm sure some of the people, that was their first time, I guess, playing instruments like that. And as a matter of fact, the police say, give me the clavade when the police let me play that, and you go play that. But why? Because now he start having fun. I usually get that from the kids, because once the kids do that, guess the next thing we talk about trust, and they start trusting me, and they start treating me like one of them, actually, they like, oh, Mister Curtis all right. Hey, you know, they just. They even play little jokes on me and trick me and laugh at me, and I just laugh, too. It's no big deal. We just having fun.

[25:50] JOYCELYN CURTIS: I remember some of the events that you would come back and you would share some of the things that the kids or the people in attendance would do. And I think my fondest memory was you were at a library. You were in your group, and I think you said you had over 70 or so kids there, and you all were packing up and getting ready to go because you had participation from the kids. And this little four year old ran up and said, what about me?

[26:23] WAYNE CURTIS: Right? I know what you're talking about now here. I guess his mother didn't let him come forward. Cause usually I come up and I let him take turns, and he came running up. He, like, had his hand. So I gave him a shakery, which is one of the first drums, actually. It's a gourd that the african use, like in the squash family, they'll let it dry out, take the seeds out, and now it's hollow and they can take it and you can hit it down on your hand. You make this doom sound. Then someone got smart and decided to put beads around it or shells, and they gave you that sh sound. So I gave that to him, and, oh, man, he. You know, it's like he escaped from his parents. They were like, they were running behind him, trying to catch him, catch up with him. I was like, no, he's all right. He let him go and gave him to him. He started playing. He had a good time, though. But my favorite. Recently, downtown at the mobile public library, several groups came from different schools, different camps. It was summer camp, and these two adults was over on the right side, and I was giving people different instruments to play their shake. And as they were leaving the stage, they were kids. I was helping them out up off the stage, and they'll give me a hug. And I, you know, all high five. And I went over to this guy, kept doing this, his hand up like that, and I'm like, I guess he was one of the instructors, I thought. I went over there and talked to let him know that we were getting ready for the next group. He was a special need. He wanted a hug, too. So when I took the shake away from him, he gave me a big hug. Then the lady next to him, who I thought was his instructor, I'm like, wow, she's special needs, too. And she had been over there jamming, so. But then actually, the teacher was in the rear, and they came back and they. That was really nice. But what happened? I know what happened physiologically, okay, remember I was talking about those rhythmic patterns. Even your heart beat at a certain rhythm. You breathe at a certain rhythm, you talk with a certain pace. So once they heard those rhythms and start playing sometime, they, being a special needs person, he probably just closed his eyes and he was just. They were just playing, and it probably felt so good. And guess what? This big old smile came. This big smile came across their face. I was like, oh, okay, good. You know, it's doing what it's supposed to do.

[29:33] JOYCELYN CURTIS: So you feel you're reaching those people.

[29:36] WAYNE CURTIS: You go, doing what you know. Yeah, it's. How can I put it? It's more like a mission for me. Okay. It's more like a mission. You know that. You know, I been through things in life. I like to forget things because they could be stressful or cause anxiety. You know that. So I understand what people are going through when, you know, parents divorce or you had a death in your family or someone lose a job and you had to go. You know, it's so much going on, especially with students, you know, with young people, it's rough out there today with social media and drugs and gun violence, and people don't know how to resolve conflict at this young, you know, stop all the beef in here. Hit the drum. That's why sometimes when you be all up in here, all up in my ear, I go in the room, I close the door, huh?

[30:44] JOYCELYN CURTIS: Yes.

[30:45] WAYNE CURTIS: Put on me some New York and soul or something and play with it. Then all of a sudden, my whole attitude changed. Then I come back out and give you a kiss instead of saying what I wanted to say initially.

[31:04] JOYCELYN CURTIS: One thing, though, when I know what you're doing and I see what you're doing, I see the impact on our grandkids. We've been blessed with and gifted with two grandkids in our seasoned age, and so they keep us young. But when our granddaughter, who was two years old, passed by the drum room and she said, play drums, pop, pop.

[31:33] WAYNE CURTIS: Right.

[31:34] JOYCELYN CURTIS: And then to see them at Christmas time, she playing the steel drum and he playing a hand drum. I think in terms of legacy then, that not only are you building a business, that's not why you started, and I know that, but you are also building a legacy for our grandkids, and you're teaching them a way to be able to alleviate stress and to be able to communicate, learn that respect. You talked about. About being disciplined and being good listeners.

[32:14] WAYNE CURTIS: Listeners. Yeah. Yeah.

[32:15] JOYCELYN CURTIS: And so I think going forward, as you continue, those would be cherished moments for me to see her playing the still drama and doing her little dance, you know, that was just awesome.

[32:35] WAYNE CURTIS: Even when they were infants, I don't know if you remember or if you ever seen me do this. I do it with all our nieces, nephews when they were babies. I put them right here next to my chest, like with baby girl, our granddaughter. I call it Georgia. I put on hypnotic love by Mesa. Okay. And it's got this beat, this flow with it, and I put it on my chest, and I bounce to the rhythm of that beat. So now she got it, that rhythm, she understands it. That, oh, that's. Oh, that's how this feel. Then you can put on a rock song or something. You can feel. You can put on a gospel or song, you know, so you put them on. On different genres and let them feel and understand the different rhythmic pattern. Of course, you know, I'm a jazz, so most of it is jazz for me, but. But they kind of understand. Remember Lil Man? I call him Lil man. That's my little grandson. He was listening to crusaders, jazz crusaders. I had it on YouTube, and all of a sudden he started bouncing, and I'm like, wait a minute. But he got it. He understood the rhythm at that age, and he was grooving to the field, and his mother looked at him like, well, I said, yeah, you know, yeah.

[34:15] JOYCELYN CURTIS: And so I just. What is your vision for the young people who take your classes or the other adult special needs? What is it that you would want to see them?

[34:31] WAYNE CURTIS: I look for another me or another you. You're a doctor in social work, right? Right?

[34:43] JOYCELYN CURTIS: Yeah.

[34:43] WAYNE CURTIS: Yes, you are. When you were growing up, your father got ill. You had to go into certain low income housing for a while, but you didn't stay there. Your mother worked hard. Your father worked hard. You got out of there. Each one of your siblings worked hard. You got an educator. You got. And then you got your doctorate. It's plenty of them out there. I look for another person who gonna be. I tell them, you gonna be my doctor one day, or you gonna be my lawyer, or you gonna be my accountant? You can do it. Because one or two people told me, doctor Grant over at Booker T. Washington, one day, I act a fool in the assembly, he asked a question. Someone was speaking. They said, 93 parts of the brain. No one answered. So I stood up and said, sarah. Sarah, Bella and medulla uplongala sat back down. The kids behind me hit me behind the head. Nerd think he know everything, the one of them. So I stood up and did what I thought was best. Slapped the one, hit the one that was behind him. And he stood up. He was so big. I did the next best thing. The one next to him stood up. The other one behind him stood up. So I ran. Now we in the assembly, doctor Grant brought us in there. He brought me in the room. I can call your parents or you can take five licks. That's when corporal Parson was okay at school. You weren't going to call my parents. Cause I'm at school acting a fool. So I grabbed the desk and bent over. But that's not an important part. He sat me down, he pointed to me. He said, you got too much sense and knowledge to be acting like that. You could be something in your life. He told me when he was in school, he worked his way through his job was to unclog the sinks and the commode. That was his work study. So that was a big impact on me. When people do stuff like that and tell you you can, no matter what everyone else tell you, no matter what's going on in your life, this is America. Like they say, you can, right?

[37:05] JOYCELYN CURTIS: Okay. And then if you had one word of wisdom to whomever would listen to you, what would that be? What would you want to share? What's the most important thing that you would want to impart?

[37:24] WAYNE CURTIS: I tell you my creed, my motto. I always tell them the three one. A personal relationship with God. We ain't going to discuss that. That's what. A personal relation. I have a personal relationship with goddess. We ain't gonna say who God. I'm just saying I have a personal relationship with God. Two family, three. A few good friends. Don't have to be a lot, just a few. Like doctor Johnson. Frank, you know, when his. When Valentine's mother was sick and the father died and we was keeping jaira, they weren't gonna be home that weekend. He just called and said, hey, keep y'all. Make sure she get to school on Monday. You know, they trusted us enough to know that their eight year old daughter would be okay. That's, that's kind of friend I'm talking about. Personal relationship with God, family, few good friends. Everything else is you can come and go, but, you know, you can follow out with your family, but you're gonna still love y'all. Get back together. That happened. A few good friends, they gonna be there. But that's all I have right there for that part. That's what I thrive on, my family and a few good friends. And you, I know it's me gonna say.

[38:51] JOYCELYN CURTIS: No it's actually personal relationship with the Lord. No matter what we go through, where we're going and where we've been, he's been consistent, and he's given me a husband who has been. So I'm very thankful for that. Not jealous of my relationship with the Lord, but also has his own personal relationship. So that's very important. Along with my family, I have a mother who's 90 years old. We're very blessed to have her and also siblings and grandkids, so we're very blessed.

[39:34] WAYNE CURTIS: Yeah. Like I said, personal relationship with God, family, few good friends.

[39:40] JOYCELYN CURTIS: Yes.

[39:41] WAYNE CURTIS: Now, you might meet some nice acquaintances along the way, and they can, you know, be part of your circle, but, you know, you. But that core group of friends do or die. What would the kids call ride or die? Ride or die. That's probably old school by now, though, isn't it?

[39:59] JOYCELYN CURTIS: I don't know, but thank you for sharing.

[40:04] WAYNE CURTIS: Okay. Yeah, I enjoyed this.

[40:06] JOYCELYN CURTIS: Okay, wonderful.