William Marketon and Michael Muskin

[00:04] WILLIAM MARKETON: I'm 58 years old. Today's date is June 21, 2022. I am in the story corps virtual recording booth, and I'm here with Michael, my one step conversation partner. Michael, do you want to go ahead and introduce yourself?

[00:26] MICHAEL MUSKIN: Sure. My name is Michael Muskin. I'm from Omaha, Nebraska. I'm 68 years old and I'm currently recording for StoryCorps. And I'm with Bill, my one step partner.

[00:55] WILLIAM MARKETON: I'm going to be reading Michael's bio. I was born and raised in Omaha, Nebraska. I went to college at the University of Northern Colorado and stayed in Colorado for 50 years. I worked as a teacher and a coach early on and then for human service nonprofits, working with kids and families. I loved to travel and with my former wife traveled for a year throughout the world. I don't have kids, but I'm very close with my nieces and nephews. And I also mentor two boys, now young men, from Eritrea, Africa, and a young man I've mentored for 20 years. And Michael, because you can't see the.

[01:35] MICHAEL MUSKIN: Chat, I'll read Bill's bio, so. Okay, great.

[01:40] WILLIAM MARKETON: I grew up in Minnesota in a small community near Minneapolis. I received a bachelor's degree in accounting and went on to have a successful career in public and private accounting as a CPA. My wife and I have been married for 31 years. We have four children that are spread out all over Virginia, Washington, California, and Idaho. We also have been blessed with five grandchildren. My social views have changed dramatically from when I was younger. Early on, it was either right or wrong, no in between. Do either of you have a question? You know, I would like to see Michael diving a little deeper on the mentorship stuff that you done with others because that's fairly important to me and I'm passionate about that as well.

[02:32] MICHAEL MUSKIN: Yeah, I actually was the director of a mentoring program called Partners, kind of like big brothers. And let's see, like 20 years ago, actually had one of the kids in our program that decided to get matched with, his name is Felix, and we've been matched now for, like I said, he's 32 now. He was twelve back then. And so, yeah, it's been an up and down relationship, but definitely I'm still, I just saw him on this trip that I've taken, saw him and he's got five kids and he's done variety things, but he's actually doing pretty well right now. And then this kind of relates to what we're talking about today. With the election, I wanted to do something, and I know refugees and things were part of that. And so I decided to get involved with lutheran family services. And they had a couple kids that just moved from Eritrea, Africa. They were looking for a mentor, which is a stretch. I'm kind of a friend, but I've known them now for five years and done a lot of fun stuff with them and gone through some stuff with them also. They went from not knowing English at all and not really being in school to, you know, in high school and, and speaking English and enjoying american life. So it's all been interesting and definitely ups and downs, for sure.

[04:04] WILLIAM MARKETON: Great. Yeah. From my side, we've hosted a number of exchange students over the years, so we've been able to see some of the cultural aspects and the differences that these young men or young women bring with him from other parts of the world. And we've had them from Europe as well as one of them from. And probably the one that we've been the closest with was from Pakistan. So a significantly different cultural experience from, you know, where we are from here in the midwest.

[04:43] MICHAEL MUSKIN: Yeah. Very cool. Yeah. Great experiences, I think, you know, for sure. So I guess. Where, where do you live now, Bill? I saw you grew up in a small town outside of Minneapolis.

[04:56] WILLIAM MARKETON: Yeah, I live just outside of Sioux Falls, South Dakota. My wife and I have an acreage out here, and this is where we blessed and lucky to be able to raise our family and host our exchange students out here in the country. So it's a fairly small population based, although Sioux Falls is just a great community that's growing fairly rapidly. It's just been, it's been wonderful for us to be out here. And are you still in Omaha or out in Colorado?

[05:29] MICHAEL MUSKIN: Well, so I actually moved from Colorado about a year and a half ago just to be closer to family. And, yeah, it's been very good. I've got two brothers and nieces and nephews in that area.

[05:44] WILLIAM MARKETON: Okay.

[05:45] MICHAEL MUSKIN: And still go out to Colorado. In fact, I'm going out in a couple weeks. So, yeah, I've been able to have both of those, which has been good.

[05:53] WILLIAM MARKETON: Yeah.

[05:54] MICHAEL MUSKIN: But I lived in primarily in Greeley and Loveland, Fort Collins, Colorado.

[05:59] WILLIAM MARKETON: Okay.

[05:59] MICHAEL MUSKIN: Kind of by Denver.

[06:02] WILLIAM MARKETON: And that area is growing like crazy out there, too. So.

[06:05] MICHAEL MUSKIN: Yeah. Yeah, that's very crazy. Yes. So one of the things you said, bill, in the last part of your bio, you said your social views have changed where things were kind of right and wrong. No, in the middle, and now they're different. So how has that changed? I don't know if we just jump ahead here, but I assume we do.

[06:30] WILLIAM MARKETON: No, and that's fine, I guess. Growing up, went off to college and getting an accounting degree, it was, you know, kind of black and white. I mean, it was either did it the right way or the wrong way. And my kind of my social views kind of triggered that as, you know, as well as that I came from, I would call it a middle, lower middle class, blue collar family. And I was one of the few people that ever went to college and the first one in my immediate family that ever graduated from college. So for my parents, it was a shock that somebody even decided to go off and do that, and they were wasting their time by going off to college. They should have been straight into the workforce there. So I came out of there pretty strong. Strong willed or strong minded that you just got to work your butt off to do things in the world. And the harder you work and the more effort you put in, the more successful you'll be. As I've aged, I'll call it. Maybe a little wisdom has kicked in. I understand that that's not possible for all. I believe attitude is extremely important, that you have to have the right attitude. And I don't care where you come from. You can come from a very difficult upbringing, or you can come from very poor, or you can come from an extremely wealthy family. You have to have the right attitude about life to be successful in life. And you don't have to be the smartest person in the world either. You just have to have the willingness and the desire to go after it and make things happen and put in efforts. I'm also a believer that, and it wasn't so much when I was younger, but I am now, that we need to give people a hand up. As people are down and out and they're struggling, we need to give them a hand up. But at the same time, we can't do it forever. We have to give them a path, and then they have to choose a path to work their way up. And we continue to give handouts and handouts and handouts. It's going to become something that they're accustomed to, and then they fall into that lifelong trap of always looking for or. And again, this is my belief, is that they're always looking for those handouts without a desire to go off and better themselves. And I've witnessed it personally with our exchange student that was from Pakistan. He decided not to go back home after his exchange, and he went off to New York City, started working for some restaurants out there, eventually got his green card. And now he's a successful restaurant owner, and him and his wife have a house and three babies and two cars in the garage, and he came from nothing. He had $100 in his wallet when he left.

[09:43] MICHAEL MUSKIN: Good for him.

[09:44] WILLIAM MARKETON: Yeah. So that dream's available. It's all about desire and attitude to go after things.

[09:53] MICHAEL MUSKIN: Yeah. And I would very much agree with that. And I've worked in human service and social services all my career and with youth and family and. Yeah, definitely attitude and values. You know, this kid, young man now that I mentored, that lives in small town Iowa. Now just our perspectives on things are quite different. Even though I've tried to help him to look more long term, he's very short term, as everyone else around him is, and just different values on money and various things. But he's done well. Hard worker and positive attitude, and so he's been able to do things well. But, yeah, you can't just keep giving people things. And, you know, if we had all the money in the world, we could do more of that, but we don't have all the money in the world, so you can't continue to do that. And it doesn't help people in the long run anyway, so. But definitely a hand up is very good. I really believe in helping people, and there's a lot of people, you know, I feel very lucky, even though I was more middle class family, and at the time I thought it was okay and working in human services or whatever. I just realized how lucky I've been to have college as an option and lots of things that have been very positive. Good values, whatever.

[11:18] WILLIAM MARKETON: Yeah. Kind of going along that the college deal is, and I don't. I hope you're okay. If we kind of transgress a little bit is, you know, and when I look at our educational system and our advanced educational system today, I just look at it. Something that's broken at the extreme debt that we're putting our children in.

[11:37] MICHAEL MUSKIN: Oh, sure.

[11:38] WILLIAM MARKETON: As they leave high school and go on, and then many times they go off to some of these schools or universities and they pick up degrees that aren't beneficial to them when it comes to finding a job in the workforce. I'm a huge fan of the trades and the trade schools that are out there, and South Dakota's got a couple of very successful ones where individuals will go to school for a year, to 18 months, to two years, and then pick up a trade and then be able to take that trade and go off and make a successful career out of it. But what we got happening on the big university standpoint. And this free access to money with student loans is, to me, is kind of really breaking the backs of a lot of our youth that are out there, and I'm not sure how to fix it, not sure how it can be fixed because of the control that's within these university environments right now.

[12:47] MICHAEL MUSKIN: Yeah, I mean, yeah, definitely. The depth that people are coming out with is crazy. And I realize that more kids are looking at, especially in computers and some of these other trade areas that they can go into. I do think that college is a really good experience, although, you know, to pay a bunch of money for a really good experience and meet maybe some lifelong friends and learn and be able to grow up and, you know, have a lot of experiences, you know, educationally. I really, you know, blossomed, I think, in college and got into education and, you know, just had a lot of experiences that I thought were very good. But I definitely don't fault people for going to the trades or not going to college, especially with the cost of it.

[13:36] WILLIAM MARKETON: Yeah.

[13:37] MICHAEL MUSKIN: And to try and make free education, that's a great idea, but to be able to do that fiscally is pretty difficult.

[13:46] WILLIAM MARKETON: Yeah. And then how do you manage that aspect of it as well, to make sure those resources are being used properly.

[13:53] MICHAEL MUSKIN: Right? Yes. Right, yeah, pretty, pretty difficult, for sure.

[13:58] WILLIAM MARKETON: Yeah. Yeah. One thing, one thing I've kind of kicked around as I've sat back is maybe we put a recourse provision on these student loans so if someone doesn't have the ability to pay it back after they've graduated a four or six year degree, that the college has to pay it back. And it would change your dynamics as to who they're allowing into college and what they're teaching from a college standpoint to make sure that when that student graduates that they have a bona fide degree, that they can go out there and really get a job that can help successfully pay off that loan.

[14:32] MICHAEL MUSKIN: Yeah. Well, I do think that college needs to be, it's a time to really get educated and learn new things or whatever. But, yeah, I mean, I had a sociology degree, which is like, what am I doing? Well, I had a teaching degree originally, but then sociology, but ended up being able to utilize that. But, yeah, some of those are pretty difficult to use as a practical standpoint. And even if you do have a practical, it doesn't mean you're gonna be able to get a job, obviously.

[15:01] WILLIAM MARKETON: But, yeah, yeah, you know, it's. To me, there's a number of things that are kind of hitting us in our society now. And probably something that may surprise you is maybe my view, being conservative oriented is my view on gun control. And, you know, if you're willing to share your view, I'm certainly willing to share my view.

[15:23] MICHAEL MUSKIN: Sure. Sure. And, yeah, you know, I'll go ahead.

[15:30] WILLIAM MARKETON: No, no, why don't you go ahead and start and then I'll. I'll give you my insight as well. So.

[15:34] MICHAEL MUSKIN: Okay. Okay. Well, first of all, I grew up in a family, didn't have any guns. We were city people. And, you know, I think I had a BB gun when I was a kid, but. And really didn't know people that had guns for the most part, although I did know a few people that hunted, but I really wasn't very knowledgeable about that. So I grew up in that environment, but, you know, have just always been very, very anti gun. I don't fault people for wanting to hunt. It's not my thing. But I have some friends that hunt, so I'm okay with that. But this craziness of automatic weapons and I on and on and on and making it easy. And I really don't, don't even think that it's so helpful to have a gun at your house to protect yourself. More gun violence happens at home and, you know, between partners or family members or whatever, but I guess I could probably work with that. But I just think we. It's just insane. And the power that the NRA has, just crazy. So very anti gun and would like as many laws in place to limit the guns that we have. But I realize to try and take things backwards is going to be pretty challenging.

[16:55] WILLIAM MARKETON: Yeah. And for me, I grew up in a household that was there, an active hunter. And probably my number one hobby or passion is hunting. And primarily bird hunting with my dogs. Again, when I was younger, you know, I was thinking, well, this NRA thing makes sense, right? You don't want to take away that ability. Now, as I've grown older, again, it's another system that's broken to the extreme. And I see absolute no need for assault weapons, and I see absolutely no need for handguns outside of law enforcement or the military. And I'm very frustrated. And my own kids actually have some of them. And I'm going to. Why? Tell me exactly what your need for that is. To me, I've got a son that's in the military, and so he's very experienced and very well trained with it. So maybe I can justify it a little bit there. I've got another son that's not, and is not well trained with it. And I just shake my head as to why he chooses to do that. With these, these shootings that have happened. Something's got to change. What we got going on is broken. It's got to get fixed. These people thinking that you can change a small gun lawn, it's going to impact everything. They're going to take everything back, is wrong. It's not going to happen.

[18:19] MICHAEL MUSKIN: Right.

[18:21] WILLIAM MARKETON: But we have to. We have to get a way to fix that. I'm blown away as a young man can go into a school and buy a gun two weeks prior and be experienced enough to be able to shoot it and kill that many children. Where does he learn that? Where did he pick that up? That's not a. It's not an easy task to be able to do that. But something's happened. We gotta be able to catch that. We have to figure out how to stop that. And I think there's also times, and my wife was taught for a while as well, and they saw some of these troubled kids, but they felt like they couldn't do anything with these troubled kids outside of having some small talks with the parents. And that part has to change as well as to how can we communicate back to these kids to get them away from thinking about violent activities that are out there. So being. Being conservative and saying, yeah, I'm okay with getting rid of guns is probably a unique thing. There's not. There's not many folks that I associate with that would probably say some of those. Those same things.

[19:36] MICHAEL MUSKIN: Yeah. Especially in an area that has a fair amount of guns and hunting and. But, yeah, I mean, people would not be able to make the jump from hunting to assault weapons and, you know. Yeah, I want to see some of the statements. I want to have. We should be able to have assault weapons to kill prairie dogs or feral pigs or whatever. I mean, just insane things to me. So, yeah, that's. Yeah, I'm, like I said very much, you know, I'd be fine with no guns, but I realize people like to hunt and, you know, I've got friends that hunt, so, yeah, it's not my thing, but, you know, people are doing that responsibly and legally and all those types of things. Okay.

[20:21] WILLIAM MARKETON: You know? Yeah. And I remember as my kids were growing up, we'd have some bb guns and stuff for them as they're growing up. And I taught them responsible gun safety when they're three and four years old. If they had even a plastic gun that they had gotten as a Christmas present or something. It was no way they could point it at people. I wouldn't allow them to point it at their sister. I wouldn't allow them to point it at their brother or their mom. They can point it at a bird outside, okay? Or if there's a gopher out there and you want to point it at that, you can do that. But no way would, would I allow them to point it at somebody else. And I would only wish that others that own guns or have access to them would educate those people around them of that same principle.

[21:12] MICHAEL MUSKIN: So you mentioned that your political views are conservative. Where, how do you set yourself in that arena?

[21:22] WILLIAM MARKETON: You know, I think the, to me, the alignment is smaller governments. And for me personally, I haven't seen where our government has been overly successful in accomplishing a lot of tasks because of all the infighting that happens. So instead, let's keep that money in individuals hands instead of paying that through from a government standpoint. I'm also a huge fan of being responsible for your own actions. If you do something wrong, you own up to it. You don't find a way or an excuse to get out of it, and you fess up to the mistakes that you made and you pay for the consequences of those mistakes that you've made. And I try to reinforce that with our children as well as they do things, is to be honest and straightforward. And if you've screwed up and you've done something wrong, you tell them about it. You know, when it comes to immigration, believe it or not, I'm probably a fan of him. I am a fan of immigration because we got a workforce that doesn't seem to want to work. So we need to have people right. We need people to do things. And you've got the right attitude and you're going to come in with the right attitude and you want to work and you want to become part of our, the way that our society operates, more power to you. You know, come on board and make sure that you're doing that. So it doesn't necessarily align with a conservative standpoint, but it certainly aligns with the work ethic standpoint that you need to strongly work. I'm not a huge fan of handouts that have happened. And to me it becomes over time an entitlement as to when it's taken, you know, what happens when it's taken away with all this Covid money that was given out, and rightfully so. Some of it needed to happen, but then it continued to happen, and now we're going on two years where a lot of that money has been out there. People get accustomed to it, and how do you break that habit? And then when that stops, the child, the advanced child care credit, that's going to be coming to an end unless it's reinstated. Those individuals were accustomed to getting all of that money. And when that stops, what are they going to do? What's going to happen? So is it better to not start that process or make it very temporary? But when you make it long term and you continue to do that, that's where I'm a little bit frustrated. Probably lean more toward a conservative standpoint that says, yeah, times get tough. You just have to buckle down. You have to figure it out. You gotta tighten the belt straps a little bit and figure out how to move forward. I don't know if that kind of answers your question at all, you know.

[24:25] MICHAEL MUSKIN: Yeah, well, somewhat, yeah, somewhat. As far as just some more issues, unfortunately, I think sometimes issues are not necessarily what is being dealt with. You know, I see the republican party general and some crazies in the Republican Party for sure, as far as politicians, but, yeah, we've just become so polarized and, you know, I mean, Trump has been a huge piece of that polarization and I guess, of people being on the bandwagon. I guess I would ask you that. That's, you know, the question that comes up, you know, where, where do you stand with, with all that's gone on with that?

[25:10] WILLIAM MARKETON: And, I mean, you know, yeah. When he first came on board, I kind of liked the idea to get in there and clean the swamp, because out in Washington, the fact that we've got these long term politicians that have been in there 20, 30, 40 years, and how they get tied into, and they're sucked into the power that's out there that needed to change. So the idea of someone coming from outside the political environment in there, I'm going, ah, okay, let's give this thing a run and see what happens then. He had a problem with his mouth and he had a problem with Twitter, and he couldn't figure out how to keep either one of those at bay. I thought he had some amazing people in his cabinet. When he first started, Rex Tillerson was a outstanding businessman and, you know, he was a formal Eagle scout. And so a great background. What he brought to the table. He didn't last long there, though, because he couldn't put up with some of Trump's antics and the things that have done, the way that Trump ended his, hopefully he's ended his political career is horrible. It's horrible the way that all went down. But from what I see is that he's got that New York City fighter. He's not going to take crap from anybody and if someone throws a nat at him, he's going to throw a bomb back at him, which again, very much polarized what was going on. And I found it very disappointing what took place with our last election. And then now how do we fix this and how do we fix that gap? And you would think that, okay, he's gone, he's out of there and he's still vocal and there's some things happening but not nearly as much press as he was getting at one time. You'd say, oh, maybe Washington should be getting fixed because of that. And it's not. I think it's just as broken when, as he is in there as it is today. And I don't know if you view, see that as well or have a different viewpoint on that or, well, you.

[27:28] MICHAEL MUSKIN: Know, I mean, Trump, I just, first of all, just struggled with big time from the beginning, you know, that you have a person that lies and cheats and has this huge ego and, you know, in my mind a terrible person that people have rallied around and, you know, for various reasons, whether certain issues and that he's been able to create what he's been able to create and have such strength and have such people following him is just unbelievable to me. And, you know, some people follow his lead. They lie, you know, and just say, well, you know, and I mean, obviously, well, anyway, that, and just from the Republican Party been disappointing. Omaha has a senator Sasse that I, you know, I like some of the things he does and says and he's got some reason, but he's been very, pretty much along the lines, although he was one of them that voted for the impeachment. But I would, I would agree that our system is screwed up definitely and is not working. And part of that's the polarization. I mean, I'm, you know, I have certain views and I'm very, I'd say I'm a pretty liberal. I am a very liberal person for the most part, but I'm willing to listen to people and if somebody gives me something, wow, I hadn't thought of that or I hadn't seen that or whatever. I'm more than open, you know, in my whole work environment. I wanted to do things to make changes and sometimes, you know, my idea wasn't going to be the best idea for sure. And, you know, so I've always been very open. So, and I think that's part of our problem is that we're not willing to hear other people's views and, and be open to compromise and say, all right, I'm willing to give a little bit. And that's on both sides, for sure, making it very difficult to get things done because we're so much feeling that, all right, if we've got, if the Democrats control the Congress or the Republicans recall or whatever one of the houses, that we can stop these things or we can do all the stuff that we want to do. And, yeah, it's really, to me, I'm very afraid for our country and the world, too, with all the things that are going on with global warming and situation with Russia and Ukraine and just the polarization that we have to be able to get something done. I'm very, very worried about our country. I'm lucky I'm retired and I have enough to do okay and enjoy myself. And if I just shut all that down, I could say I got a pretty good life. But there's some, you know, I worry about my, my nieces and nephews and their kids in the future and just where we're going. It's very scary, unfortunately.

[30:31] WILLIAM MARKETON: Yeah. You know, one of the things that I've, you, you chatted with some others on is if you look back in history and you look back to the Egyptians and the Romans and the Greeks and the different empires that were out there, many of them had a track record for about 200 years. They'd make a run at it and they'd do pretty successfully and get to a pinnacle and be fairly successful at about 200 years. Well, we're a little bit past that. We're in about the 250 range, and I'm wondering, what does that mean? And the other thing that I see is, you know, my grandparents wanted to make things easier for my parents. My parents wanted to make things easier for us. And then myself and my wife wanted to make things easier for our kids. And there's a point to me that when you make it so easy, you become lazy. Right. How much easier can it be? Right. The idea, you know, I was working when I was 13 years old to expect kids to be working now at 13, I would say most parents are going to say, not a chance. They should be out in a summer playing baseball or softball or basketball or doing a traveling team. Well, okay, yeah, we've made things easier. Right. But when do we reinforce the fact that you need to have a work ethic and you need to go in after things. And the other things I see happening is the, the handouts of money to our youth as well without having to earn it. Right. Oh. So how do, how much do you give your kid? Well, give them a $50 a week alone. And what do they do for that? Well, really nothing. What, so what kind of, what kind of principles are you teaching that child? Right.

[32:17] MICHAEL MUSKIN: Right.

[32:18] WILLIAM MARKETON: They need to start doing something for that. So that's my concern on our society. That is, it's begotten so easy, and it's not easy for everyone. Right. I acknowledge that it's not easy for everyone. Right. But for the most part, in the United States, you can get fed, you can get shelter, you can get some form of transportation by reaching out and working with somebody. Are there times that you may miss a meal here or there? Yeah, those things happen. But like in Sioux Falls, there's so many food shelves and in churches and other things that you can do that with just a little bit of insight, you can pick all that stuff up and not have to worry about being fed. Whereas you go to third world countries, that's a whole different deal, where they have to carry their water for 2 miles, clean water, or they don't know where their next food source is coming from. It's a significant difference and a significant difference in the mentality of the individuals. To me, in those other countries, they still want to work. They have to work. They have to do things to be able to survive. And I'm not sure that's necessarily the case in America. And because of that, what's happening to our country. And I like you, too. I'm scared. I'm scared for my grandkids. Am I going to get through it? Yeah. Yeah. My kids going to get through it? Possibly, yeah, there may be some stuff that's going to happen. But for the grandkids, wow. You know, I'm not sure what, what's out there in the foreseeable future.

[33:50] MICHAEL MUSKIN: Well, I think that also we've become, we're becoming much more of a rich and poor country. You know, I'm sure in Sioux Falls, as you said, it's growing. Colorado rents, housing. All those things are crazy. And, you know, for somebody working minimum wage or even $15 an hour or McDonald's now or you, some of those places, you know, you got jobs all over for, 1815, seven, you know, $20 an hour. Pretty tough to, if you have a family at all and paying for insurance and, you know, all the things that go along with that, I don't know. How people, how people do it, to be honest. So, you know, somehow trying to, you know, be real about what realities are for people. And there's such a gap between, or in my mind anyway, there's becoming more and more of a gap. And even during COVID you got, you know, now people can go and travel or whatever if you've got the funds to be able to do that and enjoy life. And then on the other side, you get people really struggling with all the things that are, that are going on. I mean, I'm not a big handout person, but I, because I've seen, you know, people abuse things for sure. And, you know, you have, and unfortunately you have people that don't have that mentality, like I said, that see things very different than our values and the way that we grow up. These kids, well, the eritrean kids have a different perspective just because they're in foster homes, but they too are, you know, and, you know, they want to work. And I've known, you know, quite a few young kids in high school working or in college especially because they have to debt that they have. But yeah, there's something screwy going on after. Covid, as far as all the jobs are available, what happened? Yeah, you know, it's. And that's not just lower level jobs, that's, you know, all different jobs. I realized people had an opportunity to make some changes and look at things differently, but it hasn't come. It's not coming back. So I really don't quite understand exactly what happened. And it's a struggle for our society for sure. I mean, you go anywhere. Well, not especially in the restaurant industry and service industry. We don't have enough people. It's like what happened to those people? I'm still a little confused on that. And I don't think it's the handouts. Handouts have kind of gone away. Covid handouts anyway. But you may have a better understanding of that than me. And, you know, I'm not around kids because I don't have kids myself, but just my nieces and nephews, I think, you know, had strong values and, you know, they've worked during their time and, you know, are doing well, but they're, you know, again, to buy a house or any of that without some help, pretty tough.

[36:51] WILLIAM MARKETON: No, I agree. It's very difficult. You know, the interesting thing my wife and I, we did about a month ago, we got back from a trip to Ireland, and believe it or not, they're having the same issues we are. They can't find working in hospitality. They can't find work in bars. I'm just, I was asking the same thing over there. What happened to all these folks? And they didn't have any answers.

[37:15] MICHAEL MUSKIN: I think here to some extent is along the lines of what you said. I mean, I've known like ski areas in Colorado and some of those type of places, they had a lot of immigrant or however they did it, labor. And, you know, I think they're struggling not being able to have some of those types of labor. I mean, part of that might have been short term, you know, just short term programs. I assume they were, but I don't know enough about it. But yeah, there's, but again, what about the american labor? What happened? I don't know.

[37:43] WILLIAM MARKETON: Yeah, yeah. And I've been, our unemployment's low, so where are all those individuals supposedly working or are they just off the payroll? I don't think where there's been any studies and we haven't seen much media reaction to that as well, so.

[37:59] MICHAEL MUSKIN: Right. Yeah, I would think that's, I saw something in the omal paper a while back and I was trying to get more information on that. But yeah, you would think there would really be some major reporting going into that. And I guess that's a question I would ask, too, because I think generally what I'm finding in my mind is conservatives have different media outlets and liberals have more of a different media outlet, Fox News. I don't know much about it because I don't watch it, but just stuff I hear is like, what? And maybe I'm missing something, but it just doesn't seem like a very honest as far as certain people anyway, Tucker Carlson being one of them that I'm, you know, really frustrated with, with those types of things also.

[38:54] WILLIAM MARKETON: Yeah, my viewpoint on them and a lot of the media channels out there that they're not news anymore. What is their opinionated, their call, their opinions. And somebody's imposing those opinions on them and they broadcast them and then they send that message out over and over again. What, however they want to choose to tailor it. And I find that extremely disappointing. I'm not sure where to go to find good and accurate news can go to the Internet. There's some things here or there, right. It seems like Reddit has got some fairly good posts that seem honest on some of the information that's coming out there. I've actually went and read some Al Jazeer just to kind of get their viewpoint as to how are they looking at the Americans or Europe as to what's taking place there. And it's got a different slant to it. Personally, I seldom ever watch any of the media that's out there, whether it's MSNBC or Fox or CNN or any of those, because of the opinions that they have and they're so slanted one way or the other and they're not factual based. And that's what I really struggle with. Give me the facts. Let me make my opinion. Don't give me your opinion on it.

[40:19] MICHAEL MUSKIN: Well, I tend to think that more of the mainstream media, CB's or NBC or CNN, yes, there's some opinions with that, too, but I do think there's a lot of fact to that. And again, I haven't watched Fox so I can't really go with that except for what I hear. But yeah, and just, you know, some of our politicians and how far off they've gone for the continuing the power. It's just, yeah, very, very, very frustrating and very scary for me. You know, I, I know I met some of our legislators in Colorado in the past. This is a while back, and I was always very impressed with some of those people that they were doing it for the right reasons and they really were fighting for some of the things that they believed and we believed. And I'm sure there's still people doing that. But man, the power part of it and staying in office and it doesn't seem like the people are, are much of a concern, truthfully. So that's very sad.

[41:30] WILLIAM MARKETON: In South Dakota, we've got John Thune as our, one of our senators here and he's the republican whip. So he's kind of like the second 2nd guy in charge on the Republican Party. And I've had the chance to meet him on three, four occasions. And he seems like the real deal. He's honest, integrity based on it. Sometimes when you see him on the news, it's more kind of a fact based standpoint. He doesn't get into a lot of the rhetoric that we see out of some of the others that are out there. So I've got some faith that there's some folks out there. But then again, on South Dakota we got Christy Noem, who's hitching her bandwagon to Trump. And I'm just going to come on. Yeah, you're doing a great job for a step, but why are you hitching your bandwagon there? It makes no sense to me.

[42:23] MICHAEL MUSKIN: So, well, I mean, you know, a lot of people are there and so, you know, if you think you need that piece to get elected. You know, I mean, I just, even the January 6 things that went on and what people said kind of behind the scenes, and now they're retracting because, you know, they, they don't want to come out as anti Trump or whatever when that, again, there's an unbelievably scary situation that, you know, very much concerns me, too, that that could happen in our country. And people are so willing to, I mean, talking about hang Mike Pence, my God, he can, he's come out really as this, you know, really is quite the positive look at him through all that based on what he did and what he said during some of those things, which is surprising to me. But, yeah, like I said, I wish that we could come together and not be so polarized and have some things we can compromise on. But, yeah, there's interest groups and there's money and there's all these things that make it so difficult to be able to try and come together. It does seem like in the past that politicians, both sides, were able to do some things and work across the aisle. And obviously, with some of this polarization, it really makes it very difficult to do some of those things and really do something that's going to be positive for the, for the country.

[44:07] WILLIAM MARKETON: Yeah. And I would agree. The idea of compromise just seems like it's non existent. And I don't get it. I don't get why that's the case. There's, there's certainly plenty of elder statesmen that are still in Washington that in the past have done that. As to why they can't lead some of the others along that same path, I don't get, unless it's the, and probably is, it's the money in power that's getting pushed around in Washington, leading people to vote in certain ways.

[44:39] MICHAEL MUSKIN: If I can, definitely is, yeah, go ahead.

[44:42] WILLIAM MARKETON: If I can jump in quickly, we have about five minutes left.

[44:46] MICHAEL MUSKIN: I'm curious what gives you both hope for the future. Go ahead, Bill.

[44:57] WILLIAM MARKETON: Yeah, for me, it's a hope in people that they'll continue to reach out and do the right things. We do have, we still have some leaders that are willing to push forward and make things happen. We are changing some degrees in certain ways, whether it's toward the end of the climate change, we're making some moves on those things. So that's continuing to happen. I firmly believe we need to get a better grasp on faith and individuals need to get a better grasp on faith. And with that, that'll help them continue to push down the right paths. And I don't care what, what their faith platform is. It can be anything. I don't care, as long as they look towards saying, okay, I got to do something outside of myself. And with that, well, we're still going to be there, but I just don't think it's going to be as easy.

[46:05] MICHAEL MUSKIN: Yeah. You know, I'm. I'm not real hopeful, unfortunately. But I think, you know, I'm an optimistic person, and sometimes I think what happens and, you know, 911 was an example of that. When crisis happens or a tornado or hurricane or whatever, we're coming to that point probably with our country where things are getting drastic, climate change being one of them, that is going to force people to work together, and I hope anyway. And when crisis happens, people come together, and I'm hoping that that can bring us together. And I hate to see that the crisis has to do that. I also have some hope for some of our young people, just people that I'm around that, you know, care about this country, care about people. I'm hoping that enough of the young people can help us with that, but unfortunately, I'm not real hopeful in the near future. Anyway.

[47:08] WILLIAM MARKETON: Is there anything else that either of.

[47:10] MICHAEL MUSKIN: You would like to share? Well, I'd just like to thank Bill for taking the time out, and I open and honest, appreciate your, your, what you're doing and trying to make things and good for you with grandkids and kids. It sounds like things are good.

[47:25] WILLIAM MARKETON: Well, thanks. Thank you, Mike. And I appreciate you coming on board and having a willingness to share your. Your backgrounds and your thoughts. You know, as you had said earlier, sometimes I get into some conversations with individuals that have a different fundamental belief, and they get angry and it's difficult for them to talk about it because they want to hold so strong to their principle. And I just go, hey, it's okay. We can have different opinions. We're not all the same. We got different backgrounds. We can have different opinions. Let's just have that ability to chat with each other and talk about it. And then the other thing is, if you're committed to something and if you. If you are willing to talk about it and really push forward with it, well, back it up with your time, back it up with your money, and put all of that behind it. Because just sitting back and talking and throwing something out on Facebook or out on Twitter, you don't accomplish a whole lot but raise anxiety and continue to polarize. Instead, become actively engaged, become involved and support your causes, whatever they may be. And I'm I'm a huge fan. I don't care where, what side of the spectrum is, as long as you're supporting it and you're going at it passionately and you're doing it with your time and your money and your efforts, and you do it in such a way to educate so that people can look at it and then potentially change your ideas. I think it's great.

[49:01] MICHAEL MUSKIN: Yeah. I, you know, I guess I would just say is to continue to be open to hearing other views and realizing that people who care want to make a change and, you know, yeah, I'm very active in trying to do those things myself, so I agree. You know, just don't throw, you know, ideas that a lot of times you don't even know about, to be honest. Very well, except for what you've heard on whatever, so. But anyway, I appreciate you taking the time. It was good to hear your, your thoughts.

[49:32] WILLIAM MARKETON: Yeah. And yours as well. Thank you, Mike.