Zach Koutsky and Barbara Koutsky

Recorded January 18, 2020 Archived January 18, 2020 50:35 minutes
0:00 / 0:00
Id: chi003247


Zach Koutsky (35) talks to his mother Barbara Koutsky (70) about her life, being a mother and grandmother, and her career as a teacher.

Subject Log / Time Code

Barbara talks about herself and her background
Zach asks his mom about his birth and what it was like to be grandma for the first time.
Barbara talks about first meeting Terry, her partner.
Barbara recalls growing up in Chicago.
Zach asks Barbara about her long career as a teacher.
Barbara remembers her favorite and worst job.
Barbara thinks about how rewarding it was to be a special education teacher.
Barbara recalls her experience and process with giving birth to Zach.
Barbara reflects on her life.


  • Zach Koutsky
  • Barbara Koutsky

Recording Locations

Chicago Cultural Center

Venue / Recording Kit


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00:00 Isn't this like the boots that used to reading?

00:04 Hi, my name is Barb kautsky. I'm 70 years old. Today is Saturday January 18th, 2020. I'm in Chicago, Illinois, and my interview partner is my son Zack.

00:22 And I'll turn it over to him. My name is Zach kautzky. I'm 35 today's date. Again, Saturday, January 18th, 2020 our recording this at the cultural center in Chicago, Illinois. And the name of my interview partner is my mom bartkowski.

00:41 Koontz

00:42 You had to describe yourself to my grandkids or to Future Generations. How would you do so I'm a tough old bird. That doesn't frighten you sleep because I was teacher.

00:57 And I come from an ethnic background or check and

01:06 I would tell my grandchildren. I want you to remember where you came from and who your people are because we know only some of the

01:18 Background here. I think we'll explain that later. Maybe we won't what do you mean? Well when I was still teaching I chose to have a child and I was not married. I was in a lesbian relationship with a wonderful person carry.

01:41 I decided that I wanted to have children and the only way that we thought was the best thing to do as teachers was to have to go through all the processes. That would let me keep my job.

01:56 And so I had my son through artificial Summit insemination.

02:01 Which turned out to be quite successful in the long run because my appendix had burst when I was 25 years old when I'm talking about this time that I went for this procedure. I was 34 years old and so they said the chance of getting pregnant was one in a million.

02:25 So I proceeded to try this artificial insemination and obviously if I'm talking to my son it worked.

02:35 So on that, I mean you and Terror have been together now how long

02:40 46 years in so at that time you've been together, that would have been 10 years, right? So how did you decide that? I was going to be you in that her.

02:51 She never wanted to do that and I always wanted to have children. So back to my beginning question though. So and will get back to Darien and that decision but

03:05 You that's how you describe yourself to them?

03:10 Now and I want to tell my grandchildren that love is very important a part of any kind of relationship and we love them.

03:20 Beyond belief and I tell for anyone who isn't a grandparent yet. You just don't know how great it is. But we love these guys and we want them to always know that what was it like when you first some

03:35 I got an arbor my gosh. I just brings tears to your eyes cuz here's those little human being and when I had my son in the means that I did that was sounding to me but to have this little creature and you can hold them in your arms and just say wow. Remember when we put Hudson in your arms the first time yeah, he was low on Squishy and all red and and wasn't crying or anyting but he was looking around.

04:11 Just a wonderful experience. Then when it came to Harper. She was a little Wilder. I think it was smaller little Wilder but still I always remember the story Graham had that when she got to meet me the first time that it was big brown eyes and looking at her and then looking at the nurse or whoever else was in there and how she kept Whispering little things to me and for me it was was touching to be able to see that that happened to you. Yeah for sure generational experiences. So back to Terry in being a lesbian talk about how you guys met out. What was your coming out process? I mean this was happening and I'm assuming sixties and maybe 70 70s light 60s early 70s.

05:11 Heat at 68 probably saw some shit experience some things but oh, yeah, I mutual friend that we had thought that we were kind of funny people not odd, but haha funny sort of Terry and so when she got us together, I guess I had I heard a knock on my door and I was sleeping with no clothes on and I answered the door and Terry said well, that's a great way to meet somebody and from there weed then discovered that we had the same class together of all things archery and alphabetically we were just two or three people are part and we were but you would people apart in an archery class now, and so then we had been both getting an a

06:11 Me and the class and then after we met each other we nearly killed people with the arrows and our grades plummeted because all we did was make fun of everything and laugh real hard knowing that this might be a good connection and did you know at that time that you were lesbian?

06:29 No, but when I think back on it, I think how things who I was maybe attracted to and and how I was in my life, but it did take her a little while to draw me out and be a part of her life. And what year was that in at Western?

06:52 Let's see probably 6970. I'm not good with the dates, but somewhere in there and you both graduated with him for years like me to write on the. So go for you. I went a little bit earlier because I was paying for all of my schooling and I got out as quickly as I could. She went a year after me and it was that your interlude then did you stay down there or where were you know, I tried finding a job. I went back home finding a job. And then she you know, we never lost contact or anyting, turned into a relationship that never ended we went to live in a little

07:35 Call me when you can. Stay up about four people three or four people and and then we weren't really getting job opportunities there. So we came back and tried finding teaching jobs in this area.

07:57 That was not too long after that I think because

08:02 I went there to take over maternity leave and Terry went to California to find a job. I guess we were.

08:13 Trying to find our place in the world. And then eventually we both ended up back in the Chicago area where you weren't in shawneetown together now. Okay, I was there for was imagining their ears got it. You weren't running time for 2 years. I don't know that I would have thought that there would have been some good stories about two lesbians in the 70s young teacher is going to shawneetown Illinois of all places. Well, they used to be a surprise that I would go home for the weekend because that was just so far away and it is but you can do it. I didn't travel very far to go to being 18 year old at 1968.

08:59 You know, I mean, what was that like as somebody that was coming politically aware personally aware of who you are what your life in this, you know your role in this life is and then the society when I was a pretty turbulent time in a couple years, we know how did that input did that influence then your political, you know approach going forward. What does that such an interesting time? I'm yes used to wake up and think what the hell is going to happen today, and it was but it seems a little more fair at that point.

09:37 I was raised in a family of freethinkers and people who were very much aware of the news. You had to be aware of it. Cuz if your father or mother asked you a question and didn't know if they would let you.

09:50 Know that they were unhappy with you not being aware of what was going on in the world. So yes, I have became more politically aware. I was always more left-leaning came from I'm only a second generation American came from a very ethnic family and they realized many of the freedoms that we had and how important it was to try to maintain them to keep them and know what was going on. That was always an important part in our house.

10:27 Did you ever you'll be on the family that you knew here and at that time so sore. I was fairly dominated had a significant check in Bohemian population. There are others Lithuanian italian-english. Did you ever try and research you know how far back we could go back to you know, you're up and everything like that why you're just heard stories from your family. My mother came from a very big family and my dad there were three and his family, but they were always made you aware of their background the research that kind of stuff like people do today. No,

11:08 But you had enough older people to fill in maybe any questions that you might when you've never been back, right? You've never been over there know we were promised One Time by dad, but that didn't seem to material talking to look at uncle Frank's of paintings of the river and the bridge and everything.

11:28 What was what was the experience nine of growing up in a town like Cicero again being who you were when you were growing up in a list of societal turmoil that was kind of you leading up to it at that time and in the sixties and seventies was a turbulent times. What was that? Like, you know, you got a brother in Vietnam political. It is logical leanings Providence support that well. I think that as a kid you don't think of any of that? Yes. It was very there. It was. All right. It was there were times when Martin Luther King was in Chicago and then I believe he came in to Cicero.

12:14 But you just it wasn't the norm to have it be the way it was and I think what happens is you are a very small world when you're like that because as soon as you went into what's a high school and you began the history of all kinds of things you thought there's a bigger world out there and when you go to college and I fought to be able to go away to school your eyes are opened even more and the

12:46 One thing that I can say is open as my parents were in many ways. They were still

12:52 There were still of a racist weaning.

12:56 I quickly caught on to that at times. Yes, but you then began questioning all of that.

13:07 You question things about I haven't necessarily thought about war and everything, but my brother was had gone to Vietnam drafted or enlisted. He enlisted we had a very dysfunctional family. My father was an alcoholic and abusive and and stuff not physically but emotionally mentally and I always said my sister and brother and I ran away my brother ran into the military. My sister got married, very young and I went away to school so

13:45 When you when you have that and you come home and you're like, you know, what's wrong with you people we have human beings around us were all different remember what it was like if somebody called you an ethnic name or something and you need to apply that to everything else in the older you got the

14:06 Further away you realize you just could not agree with them if you ran away, why'd you come back here?

14:12 Home is home.

14:14 Family is family.

14:16 And you need that support and there were times where I was pretty low. I always had to work my have jobs to work my way through pay for school. I didn't want to be the way I was from a very blue-collar family and I I didn't want it and I wanted to be a teacher from as long as I could remember. So I knew I had to go to school and I will say at this point not knowing I I struggle through school. I am a classic learning-disabled student many things. I had average intelligence and struggled. I was not really a reader until I was in high school and it was through my sister's influence that I

15:04 Became a reader and how I

15:07 I have my Master's Degree and I read a lot but was a learning disability than you think I was a dual modality learner. I was not where someone could sit in lecture and maybe pick up the material I struggle through phonics and yet I ended up being a reading teacher very much. So I understood special ed kids. I understood kids who have struggled through Reading and such. Yes. I think that made me a much better teacher.

15:41 In your career, you taught ended up teaching for how long?

15:45 33 34 years and how did your abilities as a teacher change? I mean, I know you know, what being an educator is a Life Learning profession in and of itself obviously, but I mean, how did your abilities change? How did your skill-set change and I think you were pretty good teacher. Do you feel the same some people? I did for many many years and then I felt burnout I think because you put so much into yourself and it's a career that is underappreciated under respected and it needs to be understood that it is a very difficult job. How did I change Through The Years you always had to adapt to who was in front of you and I got to a point where I taught special at a self-contained class. They had it I had my own classroom. It was for a severe kids and nothing like the city for sure nothing like the city. However, it was of it is a very difficult job.

16:47 You said that you were always working and you had a low point so or low points. What were those low points my parents never supported. My dad outright told me that he just thought I was Dumb and and I was not going to ever be able to go to college or make anything of myself that I would be lucky. If I got a secretary drop, I don't think it's a time that said, you know, I'm going to show him. I just planted along I knew what I wanted to be and I was trying my hardest to get there.

17:25 But you always had to work always had to work never went to school without working out. How many jobs you think you had in your lifetime?

17:35 Maybe 10. What was the most enjoyable besides teaching you can say teaching?

17:42 I guess I wasn't made that that open my eyes too many things paid for the teacher. I made in the special letter, dated my schedule day. I think you got discount on your food. It was pretty damn pretty good. And when you're counting your pennies that this save me a lot of times. What was your most hated job working at McDonald's because the baths 10 + people resented the fact that I was working there and I wanted to go to school with me going to school there working McDonald's always in college because they accommodated my schedule. I was when I worked for my undergrad, I always worked on campus, but when I went

18:42 For my for graduate school for my Master's the first time I didn't complete and I had to go back another time to actually completed. That's when I worked at McDonald's and I they accommodated hours wise very funny videos about Fair work week and you know Staples scheduling and here and you know, McDonald's was continually held up as one of the worst violators of that, you know that they wouldn't give Staples scheduling in their shortchanging people left and right on the hours and he really get you there were totally accommodate. I mean, it's interesting how Corporate America Has Changed well and I was the one of the older ones working there at that time and I ask too many questions. I was not one of their favorite literature that doesn't change Evernote corporate life.

19:31 Out of all right, so you always work to go to school. You became you got your education degree. Why did you want to become an educator? Why'd you stick with the time for that long? What led you to that and what led you to stay with it? Cuz I mean now people get print out so much easier and you need to dilute it to being burnt out but it took you 35 years as opposed to know the average time your nose University driving 5 or 10. No. No the average I thought is between 3 and 5 and understandable. It's such a difficult job. I

20:06 Always like to Kids II just enjoy them from when I was very little and I had some fantastic teachers through my life some that were like where they say. You have Angels looking out for your guardian angels who is one of those one of them with mrs. Draper 5th grade. She understood my situation. She kind of built me up. I remember the first time when my father came for parent conference, and he said she said boy, she has a good sense of humor and I thought what the hell is a sense of humor and then our house you weren't supposed to be laughing so much. So he said yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's not going to carry her anywhere. But then later on I would say

20:51 00 Junior High there was a teacher Miss timas and Deimos and she encouraged me. I didn't have the best behavior in school because I didn't understand why I couldn't learn like everybody else. I couldn't remember things and then when I was in high school I had

21:13 Wonderful people and Miss vonasek was my Spanish teacher and just an incredible inspiration and idle in my opinion you take things from their teaching style or a skillset or approach that you can work into your chest when there was compassion when people took the time to work with somebody that they knew were a suffering you no explanation. Some teachers have no patience for it. But I had some good ones along the way we were that were those some of them the biggest influences in your life because of the longevity of your teaching career or just you know, who is a really good influence was overly bad influence that make me Teach that long well know that wasn't great. But I also Imagine your

22:13 Curiosity about coronavirus and everything came from that as well. So I mean, you know out of those teachers for your professional career and influence and then you don't lie for a large who is a good influence was a bad word. So I certainly Miss vonasek was never reach out to her and let her know that oh, yeah. I talked to her. She was a family friend in a way. She knew my aunt growing up, but we didn't know that I think until you know, what yours be on that.

22:44 I don't know for sure how to answer that but I guess they always made you say. Yeah, I think this is what I want. I want to be able to

22:56 Make a difference in someone's life and I want to

23:01 See if I can help in some way and I knew my struggles and at that point, you know, I'm talkin teaching in the 70s. I believe the special ed Law Austin come in until 73-74 and they didn't know prior or what to call kids before that. If you had like a Down syndrome or you know other let's say physical disabilities people could understand that but the Unseen one's like learning disability sometimes even they used to have language learning disabilities and we had separate classes for all of that.

23:44 It began pinpointing what it was and if that point I thought to myself that I know that's why I never learn phonics. Although you can go back and phonics and you can find that for every rule. They give you you can probably break it somewhere because of the influence of all the other languages in our language.

24:07 But I just felt that.

24:11 Teaching was where I needed to be it was where I was comfortable. It was where I just got so much more back from them. I think sometimes then they got for me as a special ed teacher you look for the least a little bit of progress and sometimes it would come and when it did everybody was happy about it and other times you didn't see anything for a long time, but you kept going and I always thought if these kids can get up every day and come here and try again today. So can I

24:46 Did that change then because you taught then for how long before you head up before you add meat before you to family?

24:55 You're asking me to remember these things. I really can't I was 34 when I was pregnant. For 10 years. So I guess 10 Years yet being a teacher that affect your motherhood, I always figured if I could give all that patience and understanding and everything and love to all those kids. I certainly can do it at home. And I know that I became a better teacher after I had a child and I was only able to have one due to the insemination circumstances and the physical from the burst appendix. I'm very scarred inside. And so I know it made me a better teacher and yet I feel that I had not only an easy child, but I had all the patience in the world 2.

25:51 It'll offer him and being in a gay relationship and not having a male figure in our home. It was extra work, but it didn't matter what we tried to get you to be influenced in little boy scouts. Your male figures in your family neighbors friends, whatever.

26:13 We have work to doing and we did it and willingly when you said the the physical difficulties that it was to get pregnant. How long how how long did it take? How much did it cost? Was there a physical and mental toll on you on you and Terry's relationship during that time? Yes, and yes it probably through all of that. I went to my union first and Pat Stein.

26:47 What's this Nea in Illinois Federation of teachers, so I think we were ift and so I went to her and I checked and I wanted to make sure that I wasn't going to lose my job. If I did this being single and being pregnant and so we met a plant asset recovery. What's the way that she handled it? We had to meet clandestinely we didn't need anyone to know what these plans were that I contact my own physician and he said hold on. I will consider giving you all this information under one condition. And I said, what is that and he said if I get to deliver this baby never had a baby conceived through artificial insemination, and I'd like to do this so he called someone and I was referred to a doctor whose name. I prefer not to mention because all this man did was fight me every inch of the way because

27:47 I was single and many times I said to him.

27:51 Is it because I'm here by myself and that a married couple that you're doing it and he would never admit to that but he put me through the wringer. I cannot tell you and I thought you know what buddy you don't know who you're up against and you don't know what I am fighting for and my mother was a woman like that.

28:11 You weren't going to get the best of me and so I struggle through this over and over again and I can remember one time when he and I were sitting in an office probably about the size of this booth and he was asking me questions like physical things. It's not like you see on TV here at least 35 years ago at 36 years ago that you look through a catalog and say, oh I like this guy and I like these characteristics. He was looking at me and said cuz I do have gray hair and I had it at that time. I'll what was your hair color? Let me see the color of your eyes by blah blah. He never would give me any other information from that and so the kind of questions he was asking me that day. I looked at him and I said, wait a minute. Do you think I'm doing this because I'm a reporter or something and he's flushed and he wouldn't look at me and I said,

29:11 I'm not doing it for that reason. I want a child and I think this is the most legal way for me to do it. I have gotten the okay from the union. I had gotten this far with it and I wasn't going to let him best me. You're used to go one day for a deposit as we called if it's semen you skipped a day and then you came back the next day so I can a 3-day. So we did that two times nothing happened. And then the third time I got a call from his delightful nurse and she said by repute got to go out of town. So can you come my day was Wednesday and

29:53 Friday and so she said can you come Wednesday and Thursday instead of the day in between and I said sure and if this was $90 a pop at the time and which was very costly for two teachers.

30:10 So I said sure So we went and guess what it was then that it took so it took really only three different sessions which when they told me it was a chance in a million for me to get pregnant. I thought see this was all meant to be that's why I'm here. That's why I'm fighting for it.

30:29 So that was faster than I thought.

30:34 You kind of want a part of that wine or was it? Yeah, right. That's what I thought saw me was that what was that like them telling your parents and Terry's parents. We had kept quiet because we didn't know.

30:48 I believe I may have told my parents Terry's parents were not very happy with us, but my parents were very accepting and my I think I told my parents and my dad was very concerned. How are you going to do this financially satyr, etcetera. Well, if you knew Terry she is very organized person had everything planned out and the plan also was I was going to stay home with you for as long as we could do it. And once we had my father your grandfather kind of convinced of that all my grandmother, I mean my mother your grandmother was very happy. She was getting another grandchild. And so I believe we did share that with him kind of early and through the time everything worked out. Wonderfully just a great experience and I got to stay home with you for two years. I got my job back.

31:43 Nobody had any questions for me. They said that legally they could have asked me anything and life went on. Why didn't you want to adopt?

31:54 Actually, the first thing was we didn't have money for that. And secondly, I would have liked to have adopted maybe after that but I wanted to try to have a child of my own and have you be you know, physically apart of us through the years. We have never found out anything from this doctor who I told you fought me all the way and another funny thing went before I head this first procedure done that he did a lot of through a lot of roadblocks in front of me. I had to talk to a psychiatrist. He was with Rush hospital and I had to talk to him. He wanted to talk to him like was a part of the insurance card of that. No, nothing insurance, but this doctor again trying to dissuade me. This man was a doctor a psychologist psychiatrist and a lawyer.

32:45 So I had shared with him a little bit about how hard I was this guy was giving me a hard time and he went through everything. I said, please don't find me nuts because then what am I going to do for a living you laugh? I put a stuff aside and he said, you know what this man gives you any more harassment like this you come find me. He said you and I will go to court if we have to so all these things just happen and you got to do what you got to do it. You're on the right track as you stick with him if he was such a jerk because that was such an unusual thing to be doing it at 280-383-8283 to continue and 83 cuz I was born in 84

33:31 Interesting. I'm very proud of it. And for the most part I would say in the community that we lived in you were born. I mean you were born in Chicago and then what you were raised in Naperville, you know, it was a thing and we had to answer questions sometimes but all in all it was a very accepting situation. I mean think about it on my end on that but

34:06 Yeah by and large it wasn't an impediment to living of pretty little life and we are always wears his dad made me figure out how to

34:25 Verbally defend and or at one point I was never ashamed to say how we eat how you came about until those kind of questions came out and finally I said, you know what it's not my story to tell it's his we think we've got him strong enough. He can handle it. If you were told today that you would die. Suddenly next week. What would you change anything about anything in your life? I couldn't and I wouldn't I have had a pretty darn good life little bumps little hard Parts, but no.

35:03 170 looking back. I'm 73. I just turned last week. So proud of being a teacher know I'm going to put it in this order being a grandmother being a mother being a good spouse hopefully and being a teacher. What about by most ashamed or embarrassed? I had relationships with people that I'm ashamed and embarrassed about them or just that you all were being. Yeah, and I was not being true to myself now, but I learned from each one. I always said what do I learn from the situation? What was your Christmas right at the end? But what was your coming out Story? I mean to Jews come home one day and say

35:55 Here's Terry or military was always just very much accepted in my family. I came from a family where okay, so you're here, you're part of us and never get rid of the discussion of like momdad. No, not really. I'm Terry was just there my mom off and said while this is not another daughter that I have that's the way they were and it wasn't like we walked around. It was actually you who more out at us than anybody else. I would like story but we always were afraid of our jobs know that was our big thing in when in 04 here where they added or no, maybe it was even like 03 where they added sexual orientation as a protected right to the Human Rights Act here and let me tell you how many gay people we knew that were teachers.

36:55 Ravage, you know can really claim as it was completely okay with that in the early 2000s that you know, what kind of radical at the time that there was a protected right human right here. So you can't lose your job. You could be discriminated against which unfortunately it appears we could so easily lose eventually did get married. We did get married before I got married and you were there and had people there were very kind to us to I was loved only pray that it was at the Henry J Hyde court house. So that old man was turning in his grave. If you could hold onto one memory for your entire life forever. What would it be?

37:42 I suppose my grandchildren holding them for the first time and you and holding you the first time it was kind of cool because after 27 hours.

37:56 There you were in they brought you, you know right to my to me. It wasn't that skin on skin thing and hear this little piece of whatever it was after we had abortions aside and we saw those big brown eyes and I wish you were here, you know, was that the same jerk doctor that delivered know that was my doctor who set out only do this because he was your physician. He wasn't like the doctor and a fertility doctors for Ya by Pearl jerk. So perfectly doctor just was the one that supported and was there and he was a very religious man, you know, I like that to Angels. That's what I'm telling you. I'm on the way already and angels. I realize that an inexperienced that

38:53 There are when you least expect them good people. What about if this was every last conversation? Is there anything you want to say to me? I just love you.

39:06 Even though we may not agree.

39:09 I'm things all the time. You're pretty special person. I'm very proud of you.

39:16 And I will always love you and you need to carry them over many many years to come.

39:24 I just hear us when we're not here anymore with your kids.

39:30 They're on their kids right give them a sense of family. I always had that rough at times, but I had a sense of family.

39:39 And you are proud of me very welcome because I think a lot of people think down the fact you weren't going to be anything but a jerk or you no drugs and no alcohol liquor or just in jail and boy we proved them wrong didn't way because of who is raising me or or I guess even the lineage of weren't going to let that happen Terry and I weren't going to let that happen and you were when I look on it, you are pretty damn easy kid. You you were always even like 2 and 3 getting everybody together get them to work together to get something done kind to animals and other people, you know, you're just you're a good soul from the beginning to think that that lighter than to My Chosen profession, you know my chosen passion to work until help others very much. So and we always encouraged you. Don't be a teacher. It's too hard.

40:39 Two major offerings that you said that was never allowed to join the military.

40:53 Your your one and only son I guess even want him stuck in a war in the Middle East or something like that. I will not only that but the military is

41:03 Unbelievable people there. They're just incredible. And yes, we need them. However, I wish we didn't have to have them and go fight pointless Wars been too many through too many of them myself just to see that and my brother all these years later. He's still very much affected by it and everything so know if there's anything in your life that you had to do over what would it be?

41:32 Oh, I wish I were a slime read that was taller. I'm sorry, but yes, but a tall slim read with salt.

41:46 Oh good physical attributes and be a good dancer and singer that would have been good. I cannot pass any of those pants though. But they dance good. I think I can dance sometimes but I can I don't know if I've ever actually seen you dance at our wedding line dance grew up to find her own family, you know, another thing I think would people. You won't amount to anything.

42:19 You've came up with your own family beautiful family. So cute. She cooks a good one. You have a wonderful wife and beautiful children sometimes and think about it too much credit.

42:37 If you

42:41 Could have done anything different with me, but would have been.

42:47 One thing I regret is that we didn't volunteer more and we didn't do community service things. Although you were into that yourself, but we should have encouraged that more I've ever really believe and you didn't you just not enough time with her some concern that you don't like outing the family at that point. No, I don't think it was that I really think it was time. We were always going to school we were always I mean furthering your education and we were but that's none of those were good excuses. We should have been out there contributing to the community we did later on and certainly since I've retired since Terry and I both retired we've done a lot more of that.

43:35 And I wish we would have done it much sooner and it had that be a part of you but funny that you say that this stuff and I you know, we've been talking and I think you know, hopefully without some turns for here in a couple weeks and going forward that that is something I know maybe we can on a monthly or bi-monthly basis to Sean and you don't never gets old enough to be more helpful than whatever we end up doing that there is opportunity in that. I think that's what we look forward to in the neighborhood that were in is it there's already I kind of already made little group that doesn't on the environmental side and everything but that you know that there is there going to grow up privileged right there going to be 2 in Upper middle-income Wade kids growing up in the city. I'm in a safe neighborhood and that is definitely not given for a lot of people and make sure that they're aware of that but also that they look behind them. So I think even though we didn't do it you still have been still. Value in me.

44:34 I think so.

44:36 And I think that

44:39 You're going politically was not necessarily what we felt was the right thing for you when you were going to go into Political Science at ASU. We were like how you know, and what do you want? What kind of work do you do and everything and you can finally came back smart light came back and said there's always going to be elections and I'm happy that you have found your Niche and I don't think it was anything we accept expected but we know you weren't going to do anything in math cuz you were born without that Gene. But we were you know, every parent is concerned. What is their child's going to do but like I said, you did pretty well for yourself and never really doubted.

45:27 Yeah, when you came and said that and I went to thinking how are I had to I respect it was going to do I guess I have no idea. I know you weren't going to be a singer entertainer of some sort. But and you certainly weren't going to be a speller but I don't think you really knew and then you kind of found that we were like it but you did it you did, you know the person that we can probably think the most for that is Tim Johnson at nnhs, you know for the Youth in government thing, but seriously George Bush because when I was there two thousand in August of 2002, we invaded Iraq soon thereafter and that was like the first like kind of masked political thing that you were able to fight. You don't think I'd I was on the couch campus, but I still remember like when we marched against the Iraq War there was like 50 of us.

46:23 You know, they're biting. I remember feeling like so inflamed and like how can you fight back in at like others like means there's ways there's a process by which you can influence it and it's the political and policy side of things which was kind of interesting. Always a straight line. Definitely not always a guarantee a victory but we've been doing okay lately and you are you're a good influence ER cuz you can use that work now two people to be aware more politically and what they can do on an individual basis. I don't think there is a lot of young people that I know of that are necessarily that I think ultimately in the tribute I would always want to say is our family wasn't politicized right, but inherently if you have a thought in your head you can see the

47:20 Politically our rights as a family were pretty tenuous up until very not too long ago and still in a lot of ways can still very much be denied an effective incising not like selfishly that you pushed me into it all that pushed me into public policy and and the political around but middle-class straight white man from the suburbs that my family still could be negatively impacted even in this, you know, society and government that we've got here because my parents are gay I think gives you empathy in a very quick realization that there's so many other tenuous communities that are always on the bubble either economically are racially or ethnically year. We're going to be a religion that I mean shut if it could happen. So I can really happen to anybody. So you better do better to make sure that it doesn't sure sure. I think that's always kind of the end in the

48:20 Meaning of my political Awakening on that has everybody should be able to live and I think the Obamas influenced us all you obviously we love those guys, but I know but that, you know, everybody should be able to live and love and live with dignity. Yes. We'll go from there. You got anything you want to ask me.

48:43 Why do we do this?

48:45 Are you taking me someplace? Nice for lunch? No, I just want you to always know that how proud I am of you and I think we're very open family in terms of.

49:01 Sharing feelings and stuff like that at times it builds up but I think and I always wanted you to be a male that could say how he was feeling and everything and you didn't he have gone that way. I think we're reason I wasn't like that too. That's very important thing of an example of it other than what Society provided and it's pretty ugly in life. Certainly. Hope that our boy won't either in his kids. Down the road one either princess dresses when we went to believe that it's just that you can talk to your feelings and it doesn't have to be it's okay to be sad and it's okay to be scared and it's okay to love and I always say love is the important thing. Somebody knows their loved are supported. They don't make it was a good one. Cuz I love you. I love you to say

49:57 9 Mama. Thanks.