Amy Mcghee and Pierre LaBarge

00:01 All right. Will today's date is Wednesday, September 15th 2021. My name is [email protected] 3.

00:12 And I'm here with Amy Lynn McGee.

00:17 We are friends and we are friends. Today is Wednesday. September 15th. 2021. I am. Amy McGhee. I'm 55.

00:30 My conversation partner is

00:36 And I'm going to tell you, just my story of the military briefly.

00:44 I was an Army reservist for 10 years. I

00:51 Joined after finishing. My master's degree in classical Chinese literature at the University of Washington. I wanted to go far far away from Academia. So I went into a bunker on a shooting range in the Ozarks on a beautiful cold January back in 1997, and I do my basic training.

01:18 And went into the field of public affairs, first, as an enlisted Soldier and a 4 because I had my degree, so I was a specialist and I didn't broadcast journalism school at Fort, George G, Meade, Maryland, and then I did a journalism School print journalism school, and then I deployed to Bosnia for 6 months in 1998. And after 9/11. I took a direct commission to be an officer and stay and public affairs. So I was a second lieutenant and then I retired my commission as a first lieutenant after 10 years and adopting my daughter and not wanting to deploy to Qatar.

02:07 That's my start.

02:10 Max. I learn something new everyday, Amy.

02:15 Yeah, you know. So I am intrigued, I'm intrigued.

02:21 On on the path that you've taken in your life because I've known you for going on thirty years night 25, I guess. And when I first met you and and I saw you in uniform and I saw you going off to two weekends and in the Fort Lewis or wherever it was, you were training. I can't remember it was, it was just struck me as I have wine and it's coming from from me. I am a lifelong pacifist as a person who

03:07 Really struggles with the United states' role in the world as as it with military power and have it. A dear friend who is enlisting in the military who struck me is like, wow. How amazing is this that I know you cuz I cuz I wanted understand more.

03:29 So I think my first question was, what, you know, what is it? What was it in your heart that made you feel?

03:39 What? What drove you to join the military serve?

03:44 I think you're being kind. I think most of my friends at the time said, you crazy. I think my reaction was.

03:58 Why would anyone volunteer for military service weather? Many motivating factors one. I wanted to get far, far far away from Academia. So I went as far as I could think of, and I wanted to be very physical after being very mental and it was right after 72, which was a horrible horrible crime, against humanity, several thousand Bosnian Muslim, survey bosnians. Sign Bosnian Muslims were slaughtered by Serb forces in this town of show Bonita, and it was when it was what motivated, President Clinton to say. Okay, the US has been out of this.

04:46 We've been letting Europe and take the lead and and do or not do whatever needed to be done. And Clinton said, now, it's time that we act and I know at least in my academic circles, there was lots of people that were had lots of opinions. I knew nothing about that part of the world or what the history was, but I knew that

05:11 I wanted to be some part of the good. So that was my initial motivation motivating force.

05:21 I had a joint. I had joined, I had toyed with the idea of the military. When I first got out of college. I applied for any. When I first got out of high school. I applied for ROTC scholarships, mostly as a way to pay for school, but also for that experience, I know in many fields, the military has so much so many opportunities and especially for early leadership. They give you more responsibilities than you'll ever have as a civilian at that age. So that excited me that idea of challenging myself, physically and emotionally, you know, to be tough definitely was exciting to learn a new skill. They trained me in broadcast journalism, and that was really cool. You know, I have no opportunity to have that kind of experience, as a civilian in Bosnia. I got to serve with, I think almost 29 countries. I'm not sure exactly the number.

06:21 But,

06:23 I knew it was something that the world was coming together to work toward some kind of peaceful solution that excited me being a student of languages and cultures. I was excited by that idea. Yeah, there were a lot of motivating factors.

06:42 Yeah, I know. We've had Many Adventures in art on our lives together, having our families live. So close SLI. And in that the idea that you needed to to challenge yourself. Physically. It strikes. Me is pretty incredible credible. Incredible, considering that you get up at 3 in the morning, to get in a boat to row on the water before leaving the sun comes up for like 2 hours. So I know you're tough. So tell me what was like the toughest day in basic in the Ozarks. Actually. I thought busy training was really a walk in the park. I know you're not supposed to say that made me the person I am today and for a lot of people like that, I was 30 years old. So, and I was very actively participating in competitive rowing at the time. So I was in very good shape.

07:42 Physically, it was not a huge challenge. The only challenge for me was push-ups, which just as the upper body thing, still a challenge for me today, but I guess probably the toughest time was was when it was just so cold. I was at Fort Leonard, Wood Army off and close at Fort lost in the woods and play stop being so far removed from from military. I totally get it. And I can see both sides but that play with, you know, the names of places in the, the role of, I think it's really fun.

08:20 Laughing at ourselves and taking yourself. Seriously. Yeah. Being at Fort Leonard Wood. It was cold. It was bone shattering cold. And we're in these, like cement bunkers for long hours training or shooting, you know, usually on shoot firing ranges, and you have to just kind of stay very still while you're shooting so that you have to wait your turn. And so there's a lot of waiting around for all kinds of things and they issue you really good wool. And but I was used to doing outdoor backpacking. And so I was used to having like really high-tech good gear. And so one day the drill sergeant was laughing at me and then what's wrong with you. Are you cold or what? You know, what are you doing? What we are you complaining about her, you know, I was must have been somebody else and I said, he said, yeah, it's a good day to be alive.

09:20 Absolutely, but it would be so much nicer. If I had some Gore-Tex or polypropylene in her biting when he said, if I take you the PX you buy some gear and I said you bet. So I got to go to the PX at afternoon. It was really nice and we had some really nice gear after that. But so that was probably that, you know, it's just that hardest. Hardest thing is just the physical. I didn't mind at all when we had.

09:51 We had every night to people would be on duty to stay up certain hours. Right? And sometimes you're woken up to be on duty because they call the fire Duty. Theoretically, I guess look to see if there was a fire. Just in case of fire alarm, didn't go off or something like that. It was mostly I think you're just a training exercise to do if one of your friends didn't get up and it was their time, someone else would wake you up and you get up and so you have to just get out of bed and be ready to go and sit out for several hours and physically just watch and that didn't bother me at all. And sometimes if somebody didn't get out for the fell asleep during their watch and the drill sergeant called him. And we go outside under the stars and in the mud and do push-ups, ER, and get on their backs and do leg lifts, and I didn't bother me at all. I love. Looking at everything.

10:51 You know, the sisters. That's right. This is the w.

10:57 No, no, but that, that the Seven Sisters is that cluster? They called the police, but it's in the, it's in the northern night sky, but mostly I wanted a Ryan every night, Brian, just cleared. And I'm like, that's the warrior that I am and I'm becoming. And I like I'm getting, you know, I'm getting paid to do physical training and it was the youngest of eight and a hard-ass father. So I didn't mind time again. I say yes, just no drill. Sergeant said yes.

11:55 I know you come from a big Irish family, like myself an ounce of Irish.

12:10 Roman counts, I stand corrected. We're at the I come from a blend of Germans and an English and Irish and North American first people. So I let you know I come from a real mix too, and I don't know all about your story, but but clearly

12:34 Your family has more than one member of your family has served in the military. Tell me, tell me a little more about how that affected your decision your choice. How did it motivate you to join and serve? You have certainly made. My dad would have said don't and he did say don't ever join peacetime military bullshit. It's a waste of time. It's not fun, exciting. It's not interesting. It's, it's routine and mundane, but he was a pilot and

13:09 He loves it, you love doing what he did. I think he signed up it, you know, 17 or 19 or very young and went over to Germany. And he only time you never said anything was when we were watching MASH once and one of the one of the episodes was about a pilot that had never really been on the ground. And when they were on the ground, they saw it, like, kind of the devastation that they had reached, and my dad said, yeah, it was, I was much better off being up in the air. Because after the war, he took a motorcycle out of the carpool and drive around Europe. And I think he was pretty devastated by what had happened to Germany. Germany was just completely bummed out, and people are starving in.

14:01 But he also had a great time. So, you know, I didn't know again. He didn't tell me stories about it. But I knew that he had played ice hockey for the Army after the war ended. He got the Tour all over. Scandinavia have been a semi-pro player or he was a semi-pro player before he went and after he came back or maybe it was after he came back before. He joined up a second time to try to learn how to fly Jets. When Korea happened, and he went out to California, but my pro hockey player before they were pads, when you can just pick up your stick and smash them whenever they had. I think he had three teeth in his mouth when he died. He was still playing competitively with the team.

15:02 You know, like I said, I don't think he enjoyed like the hierarchy or, but he knew he could get away with a lot. And I think he did.

15:15 Storied career, I guess. So if you do officer training school at the end of Officer training school, you sign I guess your contract. It's very different. I don't know. Cuz I didn't go that route. I, I signed up and then I went to basic training, but he did flight school with the Navy, which is really hard core. Cuz you have to learn how to do everything plus underwater. So everything that you learn to fly you, you know, so you land in the water and you have to rescue yourself. Basically, you're locked in all kinds of crazy stuff and Stephanie did very well even. Yeah, he did very well and, you know, he's very smart and passed everything and decided actually, when it came down to it, not to accept the commission.

16:04 So even though he he went through everything, you said not to take the commission as soon as you get out and said so he went and did it with the Air Force while having already had the experience. The Air Force was really easy for him and he did really well even though he was older. I think he graduated second in his class.

16:27 Yeah, that's a young man's game. All of that. He knows very intense, physical mental, and you did it again. I did not accept his commission. And then he joined the Army National Guard. A few years later and served for many years. And when he went through basic training, his drill sergeant thought he was an undercover.

16:50 Investigator investigating basic training because it was during that time when you're all these reports of hazing and inappropriate behavior with the drill sergeant. So because he knew things that he memorized like the military code of conduct. I am an American Soldier, you know, he would rattle at all. So he had an interesting experience and free with that the Army and the Navy, and my sister is to me the most impressive because she was in the first. My oldest is due the first class graduating officers for female officers in the Coast Guard. And I believe it was 1976.

17:31 And she actually made it into National Geographic because she was on a boat that communicated because her major was Russian. She was on a boat that was communicating with Russian soldiers or boats and she was in National Geographic. So, very memorable, you know, that her experience in her and she served in her husband served. So I was around that experience and all the while I was growing up basically, so that was very powerful. I probably would have been more towards something like that. It has a very solid Mission, very clear concrete mission.

18:19 But I understood what she was saying. So I did get a good opportunity with the the army Sergeant.

18:28 Fascinating. Yeah, well again, I you know, I got my dad served and when he was in his twenties in the Seabees, the construction Brigade for the Navy. And yeah, I do remember talking with him, a little bit of Entry. Does the young boys have no real interest in military service, but but intrigued and you don't want the think. Partly what struck me was that, you know, he said, he chose the Seabees one cuz he was he was in construction. He was a carpenter Foreman trained as a carpenter.

19:05 And he was never comfortable wearing a gun. He was never comfortable, you know, with the basic, you know, that the fundamental tools of a warrior, write a weapon. And so that that's stuck with me. And I, and, I mean, I have that same kind of rooted belief that weapons that were used to protect us, are the same ones that kill us in our communities, and our neighbors position. How was it for you carrying a gun understanding that he could kill someone?

19:44 Yeah, I guess I didn't ever really question it too much because I knew it was just another thing to carry. I knew that in my service, I won't be using it active. I could never have joined in and Ben infantry or

20:01 Anything like that, but I did enjoy the challenge of learning how to fire it. The skill. It takes to shoot something far away that you can barely see. I am. I really enjoyed hanging, it's because they're fun to make a boom. So that was just exciting. I mean, I didn't certainly didn't think of it as like killing people. I definitely would not have been comfortable with that and I'm glad I didn't ever have to do that. The only time that I came close to a situation like that was when I was inside of you, I had to part of my job at sometimes was to be a military escort for journalists survey and journalists that were on the other side of town are we had a daily press conference and we had to go pick them up in an armored vehicle.

20:54 And we had a soldier that was that was their job was to be on the machine gun loaded in the front of the vehicle. And I was just a passenger but that felt very close to me. And it was one bombing on the main base. I wasn't stationed at the main base in Saturday about, I was downtown because we were our daily press. Conferences, were added Downtown hotel. So that's where my office is, where? And then I stayed in a hotel with other car engine, but I didn't have to someone else's job was always to be in charge of protection. Basically. I did have to wear a weapon when I was going through town. So I did have to have my M16 through the streets of Saturday, but we always felt very awkward to me going into a cafe for a cup of coffee or something. And having that I would always apologize.

21:54 Store owners for doing that for bringing that into their, their business. But most of the time, people are super positive, but just with so thankful that we were there, and part of the solution to help keep it so that they could walk in the street and now has a store owner. I have people sometimes because Washington is open carry, I have people come sometimes with weapons on their foreheads and it always startles me. And I've had people tell me, you should own a gun, A gun back there. Just in case, there's no way I would ever have a gun.

22:34 Tell me a little more about the in the time that you did serve in Sarajevo. And what war was there any? It was there a memorable moment, was there was there a onion a person that you connected with that really made that experience something that you know, made you feel like you were doing the right thing being there. Oh, wow. I feel like every day. I felt that way very powerful experience. Like I said, I served with, I think 29 different countries. So my five direct bosses were an Italian Air Force colonel.

23:20 Swiss army, colonel, not sweat. Sorry. They're there. Nude. They were neutral. A German army, colonel, British Colonel, and we all work together to prepare a basic daily briefing for the general in charge.

23:40 That was General Shinseki at the time and yeah, being able to work with them at our hotel, that the guards were Turkish is really fine to me, young Turkish men, and their experiences. One of our main photographers was a young Scottish man and has a thick accent that I could barely understand the same language.

24:06 In our main entryway, at the office, wasn't like all the flags of different countries that were there being part of it, you know, the UN High Commissioner for refugees to just talk about what projects were happening. I felt like I was part of a very pivotal historical role.

24:30 A powerful, very moving, a lot of intense activity important activity and my job was to translate all of that into a written form at the end of the day. So I could take the recordings from the press conference and then make sure that it was all transcribed on and someone else would load it up online. And so that anyone could access that at the time you were telling me. It was some time back that in that in that sort of public affairs role. You were your sort of like the newscaster, the news Creator, or the encapsulating, the use of the day for the base for the, what was going on in the field. Was that like, I mean, what was nothing like a typical report Wednesday afternoon to share with everyone you the whole supportive Community there? Yeah. So later on, I was more of what you described.

25:28 As I'm kind of moved up the chain and became the public information officer, but this was just a very small for our unit basically, so it would be all in written form. I didn't do any of broadcast journalism. I did video. When I was in Bosnia. I took my shot a lot of video. I asked where did VIPs, I did this Daily Press Conference transcript, they did things like that, but I was never a broadcast journalist in the traditional sense. I just trained trained for that and how to run the video on how to cut an edited.

26:04 But I always enjoyed being in public affairs, and I did different roles within it, but I always enjoyed the aspect of being able to speak two different people, different walks of life, to talk to different people. I was once part of a History unit. So I got to go actually as a three-person team and go and interview people and their stories and record them for the Army. Can I get to meet different kinds of people serve with different sorts of people of one of my fellow Soldiers with a Sikh and so he wore his turban everyday and you know, you think a lot of people think of the military is going to be in this very narrow restrictive. Male-oriented and really there's so many different walks of life to come to the military average, poor City Country, black white seek.

26:59 That really the military in so many ways and the Army in particular has had to be 10 years ahead of the rest of culture. Sometimes, so, if you have really got to meet so many different sorts of people in so many different experiences in history. As I really enjoyed all of those experiences and being a part of a unit. That was the biggest thing. I miss when I left and still mess. And so think about like having a mission. And having you know what it is. It's it's sort of like my rowing right now. I don't have to be social with the people entering my vote. I don't have to even know that much about them. I know that we have a shared purpose, shared goal and we go in, we do it and we respect each other for that and that alone it is it kind of a great equalizer. It's a great way to just be able to experience so much of humanity that you may never be exposed to in any other way. I mean, I did.

27:58 Military that I would never do the civilian. I got to drive a Humvee around these streets that were no longer streets in Bosnia because they had been found. I got to go. Do I do a half-marathon? I got a ride with I think they were yeah, they're British secret service kind of like special ops and they were going up there and then like you want to ride, you want to do the half marathon and there was no in the vehicle and representing me so many things like that, I got to do that. I would never be able to do is to represent. I think there's something that we know we haven't touched upon that. It's hard to articulate and hard to even express orfeo, you know, that idea of what it is to be American, you know, so many people in this country have an idea.

28:56 Positive negative of the military of army for reasons that are sometimes true and sometimes just Fantasy around the world. Of course, we have such a huge presence and I've been to different parts of the world. I've been to China and you have strong feelings, you know. Yeah, and I have mixed feelings about that. But but it's true. You do represent and people look to you and I think that's a very powerful role to be in and I feel good about that. I feel I feel like that's important that more people do it. I think, if we had mandatory service, whether it was like Germany, where you can also, you know, working at a senior center or an old age home or do some kind of Social Service if you object to being part.

29:56 The military structure. But I think this idea that that it's a national Pursuit. I think when we have just your 2% of the population that have served or want to serve, it doesn't represent us. And I think after Vietnam it was really important move that it was like it was the reservists are basically the rib cage, supporting the spine of active-duty. So active duty. Yes, is there full-time? Professional soldiers, but as a reservist, I realized it of the six public affairs.

30:34 Unit 5 of them were reservist. So we had an important role, there was nothing. You cannot do a mission and then the reserves you often do have your local police. Your local post office delivery. People your teachers. I was a teacher at the time I was leaving bicycle tours. And so, you know, I was part of the fabric here and then I had to pull myself out and be part of that fabric and come back and and try to fit back in. I think that's very important when you see and know people that are doing that job of representing us around the world. It's more democratic that brings up. That brings up the number of questions, but think some Reflections are. I agree. I understand enough about

31:28 The role of the United States on the planet and its various military Endeavors, some ronia, some with great Merit and I expect my feeling is the thought of war, the Balkan war and our role in that was was very important. It was, it was religious conflict. That was a lot.

31:54 That needed to be settled and I needed help. They couldn't do it. I think you went to the general. We reviewed to the point where were, you know, each other and in that case and a military presence helps stop that. And so,

32:13 13 on the United States military is diverse. I think your point, it's one of the most democratic, probably the most diverse institutions in the United States. Me. I can see it. I know some young people who have recently joined or talked about joining, and, and I think that's wonderful. What, what would be your, what would be your encouragement to someone? Who is considering serving in one of the one of the

32:42 The Navy or the guard, or Marines, examine what they're being offered, I think.

32:58 As it's a little bit of sales. So when you go in their job that's recruiters is to sign you up. So to be very wary of that and they'll act like they're your friend that your body and they're getting you a good deal and just to be very wary and to know that you are in a power position when you walk in but as soon as you sign your name, you have no power and no guarantee. They just being very aware of what you want and knowing what you want going in and also to think about it what different, you know, talk to different branches and think about what it's like when I think for me, it was very romantic because I grew up on an island to be part of something like the Coast Guard or the Navy because I love the ocean and I love ships and I love, but I also knew that, you know, you could be stuck in submarine, or you could be stuck in.

33:54 A silo in the middle of the, you know, Midwest.

33:59 So there, many many jobs in the military and so I would always advise a young person to think about what they were signing up for men, to realize that. Once you sign up, you're signed up and you have a commitment. There's no, it's not like track and field where you can say, I'm going to run this race and then it hurts a little I'm done. It's a, it's a big commitment. It's a serious commitment, important commitment, but also know what, what, you're going to get out of it, and no know that you're going to

34:32 You are going to be challenged and that's a good thing for a lot of people and a lot of young people. I saw a lot of growth and good transformation. That's not necessarily a bad thing. But to take it very seriously and know what you're signing up for know that if you do, you're signing up for the reserves or signing up for 6 years, active reserve duty, and then two years as a ready reserve and just knowing all of those things just being familiar with it reading, the fine print and taking your time and talking to people. You know, I like I talk to people that we're going to be in my unit. I found out what my unit was going to be and I talked to people and said what do you like about it? How's the commander what you know, not everyone has that opportunity or that experience, but talk to people that have done it. What are there? You know what you're interested in? If you're interested in being you.

35:30 Being an artillery. Artillery. What is that really like day in and day out? Like you asked me. What's a typical day, you know, are you sitting on the desk? Are you talkin to people? Are you out and about navigating and doing Logistics on the ground? Do you like that? Are you a quiet person? Are you an active person? Are you, you know, all of those things? I think for any young person, right? It just seems like you could have gone in that whole career of being in the Army, Recruiting advocate.

36:03 Are they might not have anybody signing up? Well, I know, I know you've done a number of amazing things in your life, which is been a mix-up. This real kind of Kaleidoscope of career choices. Some mail from my being and I had keeper up in the Vermont mountains, a pig farmer in Kansas and the teacher in California to name a few and and now you're a you know, our provider, a storekeeper that you're the center of a community of people come through every day in the military.

36:45 It strikes me that it is a deep rich community and some people stay and do it for their career, and some people come and go and serve it for short periods. And sometimes those periods are filled with a lot of conflict. And, and some people don't make it.

37:06 Do you ever thought about serving and, you know, that your experience there sound like you would have set you up for a career?

37:15 You know, it's a as a officer in the in the Army for life. Did you ever think of doing that? I probably would have stayed another 10 years if at least if I had

37:30 If, if my

37:33 If we not got involved in the Middle East, basically my new adopting, my daughter that I couldn't be away. And at the time they were deploying reservists for two years at a time. That's a long time to be away from.

37:51 The responsibility of adopting her through foster care of having weekly visits with her birth mom, and going through the court process of different, you know, parental rights being removed. All of that was really a part time job.

38:08 Of course, I could have made it work, but I also had really strong reservations about.

38:16 Our involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan. Combination. Felt.

38:26 Unbeatable to me. I couldn't get over it both of those obstacles. So I would have liked to have served for another 10, 15, 20 years. I did have some really positive experiences. Of course, there's always hardships. I had some really negative experiences when I was on leave in Bosnian.

38:52 Text Leah, tax. Basically, was horrible. I wouldn't wish it upon anyone. And the, after effects of the interrogation that I had, that made me feel like I had been. The problem was by the by the Army investigators was with all so horrible and the people around me that didn't understand or have any clear training or understanding of what it was to be assaulted.

39:24 But that's my point of.

39:28 I had some great experiences and I would have liked to have continued them. Yeah, it was it was hard to hard to leave card to send out. I mean I am honored that you served.

39:39 And wish that you had stayed as people like you.

39:44 Who should be in the service new should lead. The

39:49 United States military, that's how I feel.

39:53 Thank you. That's very kind of you to say very sweet.

39:57 Yeah, yeah, it's hard. It's always mixed feelings, right? When you have positive and negative. Then you have to wrap them all up in a neat, little package in Lewistown, but

40:09 Do some amazing things in this country and have some amazing power and influence, and I always knew that being on the inside, you can make a difference right on the outside. You can talk about it. I mean, I certainly still talk with my friends about what's right and wrong where we should be, where we shouldn't be, when we should get involved when we shouldn't. But to be boots on the ground. You have some real power in your position, to be an American and to show the world. What that means. Thank you for asking me about it.

40:45 Thank you, sis, very

40:49 Positive experience. Very scary.