Ana Shoemaker and Charles Fortner

00:04 My name is Ana Shoemaker. I'm 41 years old. Today's date is Wednesday, November 6th, 2019.

00:15 Where in Dallas, Texas?

00:18 And my interview partner is Charles Fortner and he is my most beloved boyfriend.

00:27 Hi, my name is Charles Fortner. I'm 42 years old. Today is Wednesday, November 6th, 2019 or in Dallas, Texas.

00:39 And I'm being interviewed by Ana Shoemaker and we've been partners for about 15 years.

00:54 Awesome today. I wanted to come in and have this opportunity with you to talk about someone special in both of our lives and it's actually the anniversary coming up in a couple of weeks of her passing and that's my mom right and it's

01:21 Ben

01:23 An amazing year of grief and and memories in different ways and I just kind of wanted to talk to you about that and see what that whole experience was like for you.

01:38 Also hear it through your eyes to get some memories of some of the things that I don't remember at times.

01:46 So I wanted to know kind of.

01:49 What your first memory of?

01:52 My mother Elena is what my first memory.

02:01 When when we were still teenagers of going to your house?

02:07 Hands meeting her

02:11 And she was too busy doing some things. He was always kind of busy creating something.

02:23 Then I can remember.

02:28 Vinegar in her one little workshop area

02:32 Mothers I'd like to see

02:35 Oh, oh it was it was amazing that she had the space to herself in her house for

02:45 Just being able to make our hearts and

02:50 And whatever other things you wanted to make in there.

02:58 Oh, yeah, I remember she was and she was very much in the Ceramics back then.

03:06 Yazi talk, I'm remembering like are a childhood.

03:11 Kitchen and all the dishes and things that were kind of tiled in there and just kind of made by her and it was very organic feeling and I also remember a lot of just like

03:29 Creating and crafting in

03:33 Like all types of art opportunities growing up.

03:43 Remember she was always.

03:47 OC always made time to talk to me when I came over and I always really appreciated that.

03:58 Either there's always something very open and very approachable about your mom. Very sweet and

04:09 She's a good listener and

04:13 What's the weather had a very gentle voice like like the way that she would?

04:21 She would talk just dumb and disarmed me and made me feel like I could open up to her about things.

04:30 Yeah, I remember.

04:34 How nurturing she was all the time to me and just Talkin at night with her all the time. And for me my memory of just like always being awake and like talking to her and she's like I'm ready to go to sleep. He was down but she really gave me like all the time that she could but you know, I always like to talk to you and have conversations late at night. I would do that to her, too.

05:13 What's been?

05:19 A gift

05:21 From

05:25 Having so much like spending so much time with her before and then during her Alzheimer's.

05:33 Are you?

05:42 I don't I don't know. What what do you mean by a gift?

05:48 And if I like that question, I think there might be a better question. I'm wondering what your most impacted by your experiences.

05:57 I know.

06:01 When we moved back to take care of her.

06:13 Like, you know, it's such a different disease in the way. It's presented in movies and TV and I want her to be the same.

06:30 Person she was before but maybe just kind of forget things once in awhile, but but she was noticeably very different and really agitated by.

06:41 The things that she couldn't remember.

06:45 And the things that she wanted to do and that I think

06:53 The thing that I always felt sad about was that she always wanted to go home and I never knew how to give that to her because

07:04 No matter how we arranged her living space with her things around her. She always knew it wasn't home, but I didn't know where she thought home was.

07:21 I don't think it was where you grew up anymore. And I don't know if it was where she grew up, but I don't.

07:29 Know if she

07:31 Would know if she got there but

07:35 But that always made me sad.

07:40 And it it does.

07:45 I don't know. I I I worried.

07:50 About her when

07:53 Well, I'm on the sick and the time that she went to see her mom and she taking a taxi and then you got a call because she didn't have any way to pay the taxi driver.

08:07 Ride that was in the early years or two of her on-set and my grandmother at the time was also diagnosed with Alzheimer's so they both had it at the same time.

08:22 And

08:26 Cosmically enough also passed away different years, but within a day of each other someone's November 20th and Wednesday, November 21st.

08:40 And this anniversary and remembering?

08:55 Sometimes it's hard to remember those experiences together what it was like when they were both being care gift and a different ways. Like I started taking care of my mother and then my grandmother was in a different location being shared by others and wanting to be with them.

09:17 And having a hot like a difficult time seeing them split.

09:23 And just wanting so much to give.

09:26 Them the opportunity to still stay connected and maybe feel like you know home or family whenever they did feel lost even if at that time, I was still feeling hurt and betrayed and scared and grieving my own kind of

09:43 Damn, what I thought was my direction.

09:49 And at the same time all of this like

09:53 Just so grateful that you are always there.

09:57 You were there when I found out about them when the scare of like maybe having to move back with.

10:09 Kind of being alerted to me driving back seeing her for the first time.

10:21 Yeah, just talked to like to the point of like helping me. Send her off what once she had passed away in her house and

10:34 I'm just saying goodbye and then even to this point we're like, you know, the Day of the Dead is just recently gone by and putting marigolds and incense and I love the fact that you like have the inside.

10:48 Tradition

10:51 To just kind of being a reminder and just send that off.

10:57 Into the air into the spirits or however, what is it like for you? Like what do you think about when you like the incense?

11:06 Is it all that profound or is it more of a cat family cultural thing?

11:15 It's it's it's very much both. It's like you said I grew up with with incense since my mother is a Buddhist and

11:33 It's it's it's a it's a prayer and so you light.

11:39 An incense

11:42 And you

11:48 I hope that's

11:52 Buddha or the person on the other end hears

11:59 Here's your nose that you're thinking of them.

12:05 Just kind of like a breath innocent.

12:10 Or Like a Prayer made visible

12:15 I'd rather not talk about that specifically at that time.

12:28 Yeah, it's it's it's a it's tradition. I appreciate but it's not one that I fully understand or

12:38 Know the depth of

12:54 You know when we were taking care of your mother.

13:01 Before we moved into a house that we're at the apartment.

13:06 And I know it made you very nervous.

13:10 And

13:13 I would take her out often because I knew that she likes to get out and she wanted to do stuff. I don't know so much that she like to as she needed to but she was always.

13:30 I'm ready to go like I would come and she be sitting there doing her sewing and we would talk a little bit and then she would just kind of set aside her sewing or folded place down and say okay well.

13:49 Don't you think it's time that we get going?

13:54 And sometimes I would say well no, I mean we're here but sometimes I would say yeah, let's go and we would go somewhere.

14:07 Then we go to the store and

14:10 She would want to touch everything and see what they want to talk to people and

14:16 How to talk to children

14:19 And then she would ask people for help.

14:25 And I would get these stairs.

14:30 That I felt almost like

14:36 They were ready to intervene in some way if I was somehow harming her or

14:45 Holding her against her will or something and then they would talk to her a little more and then they would kind of look at me a little differently. Like what am I supposed to say to her?

14:58 And I would have gotten away and that she has dementia and trouble remembering things.

15:06 Hands

15:09 And then they would

15:12 Kind of smile a turn.

15:16 Play that was nice talkin to her and then they would.

15:20 LeBron about their day

15:24 How did you feel about that? Cuz I know you didn't like her going out so much.

15:32 I so appreciate that you had less self-consciousness about going out with her because there were so many responsibilities and anxiety that I had in the beginning.

15:50 I'm tearing out just thinking about it, but that you would just say okay. Let's go you're ready. If you're ready to go with her and you would take her out and I do believe that.

16:02 Made her feel like she connected.

16:07 To the outside world when she was constantly stuck at home while I was working or away or

16:14 Dealing with things it made me really scared. I didn't know how to handle being out with her for a long time. So it kind of it was like really mustering up a lot of energy and preparedness to to take her out anywhere.

16:39 And at the same time I loved when we would go out to all together and even later when there was like less fear around it, especially

16:50 Like to the fair when we go to the State Fair.

16:54 And then I became like an annual thing even when she wasn't able to walk anymore. We would still take her.

17:04 But yeah, I really did appreciate it that you

17:09 Didn't have any qualms about doing it so that she didn't feel like she was cloistered cuz it sometimes it almost I imagine kind of the story of Rapunzel. Why was the wicked witch that held her in the tower and all she wanted to be was free.

17:26 And I didn't know how to do that sometimes.

17:32 I don't want you to feel so bad about that.

17:40 Because like I said, she always wanted to go home, but I was never sure.

17:45 Where she thought home was so.

17:50 I like taking her out, but I

17:54 Don't know if there's any place we could have taken her to really that.

17:59 It felt the same as

18:04 When we be at home that even when we took her someplace, she'd take it in a little bit and then be ready to have to move on to the next thing and see be like, okay, I'm ready. Let's go. Start over start over. Yeah. I think I definitely learned that that coming home was kind of a

18:35 Restarting the record player that like at one spot and then also just

18:42 A way to share where she was anxious or uncertain.

18:49 And that home could just be a sense of

18:54 Of comfort of recognition of something other than what the moment the present moment felt like which was

19:05 Not home in a sentence.

19:11 It just reminds me of like the last few years ago when she was not able to talk and

19:18 I love the fact that throughout the entire time.

19:22 So we took care of her. She never

19:26 Look at us with fear or agitation when you say hi to Tatian, it's not like she's never aggressive or anything, but

19:36 She just

19:38 Always appeared peaceful with us and that felt like even though she stopped remembering our names or how to speak or anything like that. Just looking at us and being around us sheet.

19:55 Still be calm.

19:58 Or give us a glare like a sense of humor if we said something to her.

20:11 Yeah, she never felt.

20:16 Disturbed you're agitated in the way that she didn't recognize us as something that felt familiar.

20:25 Yeah.

20:28 Yeah, usually when I would see her in the mornings she would smile and it was always nice and

20:50 And I have to miss her.

20:57 It's not that I miss.

21:01 Taking care of her

21:04 Like I loved spending time with her and being able to help her.

21:10 I miss.

21:15 I miss just just the energy that she seemed to bring in the mornings.

21:26 Her smile and

21:28 And I miss I miss being able to talk to her cuz even with her Alzheimer's I would still.

21:37 Talk to her about things.

21:40 Hands

21:48 There's just really nice to be able to talk to her.

21:59 You know, she has a real receptive loving space.

22:08 Just the energy about her. I think it's always been like that.

22:19 Darcy was

22:21 Your mother and

22:32 I know that you love her very much, but

22:41 Did you feel you were ready?

22:43 To have to take care of your mother.

22:48 When we started now.

22:52 No, I think.

22:58 I was still holding on to.

23:02 Hopes of what my future would be ending my twenties and I didn't even know how long we would be but did even the thought of four years of of caregiving was kind of my ideal fantasy that I would probably put her in a home if I didn't have to and I remember that you are 100% ready.

23:30 To just go all in for my mom even been to remember there was a little bit of an upset not a little bit. There's a big upset kind of a disappointment. Maybe I imagined that I wasn't ready and I had to kind of grieve that change in my identity and role that I think it was also the biggest

23:53 Gift of purpose and meaning in my life

23:58 2

24:00 Have those 10 years.

24:04 And I feel such a deep wisdom now and only now I'm not only now but throughout I was just like thank you. Thank you. Thank you for being that side that was just like ready and willing and stayed even when it almost have set you to like not be with me because I thought differently in the beginning was that your experience or what? Was it like for you?

24:29 In the beginning

24:36 You know what?

24:39 I know that everyone has to

24:45 Find a way to do things and has their own relationships. But yeah it just

24:52 Kind of thought you know, Elaine has your mom and

24:57 She loved you and took care of you all those years and

25:02 And I just

25:05 I just found it hard to

25:11 Believe that

25:16 You know, it would take that much thought about.

25:23 Who is going to take care of her? Like I know that you have a sister but

25:31 I would like to imagine that you guys would fight over trying to take care of someone like Elena. It did not happen that way.

25:44 But it did find us right us tighter.

25:52 And

25:55 My sister and I hate you too, but also my sister and I

26:08 And end it was

26:15 Like I said, I meant Elena when I was a teenager and

26:25 And I couldn't imagine.

26:28 Not trying to repay all the kindness that she showed me over the years.

26:35 And throughout our relationship.

26:39 Hands

26:44 I love Elena and I miss her and I love you too. And so I'm glad that we did it together.

26:53 That we took care of your mother.

27:01 Yeah, I'm glad that it worked out the way it did.

27:06 I have another question.

27:10 What was your experience like?

27:16 Partnering in the caregiving the day-to-day activity with me. What was your experience doing it with me?

27:26 To tell you the truth. What is it? Thought you were very bossy, but

27:36 I was always willing to give you that because she's your mother and

27:45 He wanted the best for her and so demanded the best of me that feel like that sometimes or

27:53 I'm at all.

27:57 You know, I I'm

28:00 Not sure if I can name any specific things, but sometimes

28:08 I think I

28:14 Felt that.

28:17 Sometimes you focused on.

28:20 The wrong things or the things that

28:24 Things that were important the things that that

28:29 I don't know if I

28:34 Felt were

28:37 The things we should focus on like like I I know.

28:44 You

28:46 Didn't always want me feeding Elena like junk and stuff, but

28:54 I knew that she she appreciated desserts.

28:58 And so at highlights

29:01 Belizean desserts and stuff but

29:05 Also at the time I really like to cook and so I

29:22 Not sure where I'm going with this was I nitpicky to remember they were times when you just kind of wanted her on like a very

29:44 Organic can like vegetable.

29:48 Diet, which

29:52 Is a good thing and is not something to be argued with but but

29:59 And I I knew that she

30:02 Still like to eat things like fried chicken and steak once in awhile and

30:10 And that I didn't have any trouble getting her to eat those things and and sometimes I

30:16 Sometimes I take her out to get the hamburgers and I thought she was enjoying that but then there was that one day when I looked in the back of my car and found a really old dried hamburger that she only taking a couple of bites oven stuck in one of the Cubbies in the back of the car.

30:34 Forgotten about

30:43 Yeah. Wow, I yeah, I have different memories of what kind of maybe my wrong things are nitpicky things where but

30:53 There's some like also.

31:01 I just want to like again recognized that you were willing to.

31:10 What is it be my number number one number to my side my partner my co-partner my co-pilot. You were like my co-pilot the entire time and you know, of course I had the guardianship in the responsibilities of those kind of things.

31:28 But even though we've never been married or had kids it was just like that was a partnership that

31:36 Really taught me a lot about both of us and how we work together and how we love together and how

31:46 Different

31:51 Gifts we bring

31:55 And I really learned how to let go of a lot of control which was

32:01 Detox, I think my toughest challenge.

32:06 In this Partnership of caregiving with you is just realizing that

32:14 Everything you did was it was right?

32:19 In everything that you did was perfect and it didn't look like me and it didn't have to be this cookie-cutter way of how I

32:30 Nursing and Aiden Etc

32:36 But I do feel that everything that I did was right and perfect.

32:43 I tried but

32:45 Best you could do things are remembered just know as straws.

32:54 Straws straws attack when we would have a line on we try to get her to drink and we would give her strong we would give her a drink with a straw in it and

33:08 In the beginning

33:11 It was easy and she could sit through a straw and then

33:16 She would kind of take it in the straw and then.

33:23 It would just

33:24 You should spit it back.

33:27 Then to just bite on straws.

33:32 Mannix

33:36 And then we just couldn't give her anything to drink with a straw anymore.

33:47 I don't know. I remember it was.

33:50 One of those things that was kind of funny at first and then it got more frustrating the more it went on.

34:00 You seem to be getting a little bit of flashes of of memories and certain Pockets. I think one of those things that I also remember was that you and I would find some great humor and irreverent humor around things that were really frustrating and intend of like,

34:20 The things that a lot of I think typically functioning people start to take for granted.

34:25 And

34:27 I love getting texts when I was away that.

34:33 In Singing in the light of your sense of humor and an observation.

34:39 About these things as well.

34:44 Do you have any funny memories like of that?

34:48 Not at the moment.

35:00 How you feeling right now?

35:16 I don't know how to how to say it. It's it's

35:24 There's good memories nurse at memories and

35:30 I kind of want to hold on to all of them, but

35:39 I guess.

35:43 I wish I could remember them better sometimes.

35:58 I feel that this tenderness around all of this.

36:05 And

36:08 The presence of both grief and

36:12 There's just kind of like

36:15 Little bit of foam

36:19 What's the word is kind of like a spinner squeezing like deep in my heart space?

36:28 Like a little bit of a tightness.

36:41 Yeah, and I definitely want to make space for like the the sad a difficult and frustrating Parts as well as the just the celebrating in the the humerus when all those pop-up and I imagine they're going to continue to do that for both of us for the next.

36:58 Few Decades of our lives and I'm so glad to be able to share that with you and

37:08 Just thank you so much for being a part of this too kind of chair story together and on her and

37:17 On her ass and I love you very much and love you, too. Thank you for letting me.

37:24 Be a part of it.