John Woodward and Maru Gonzalez

00:11 My name is Maria Gonzalez. I'm 26 years old. Today is January 2nd 2010. We're in the WABE studios in Atlanta, Georgia. And JD Woodward is a friend and colleague of mine.

00:26 My name is John David Woodward. Also JD I am 18 years old. It is January 2nd 2010. We're in the WABE studio in Atlanta. And Maria Gonzalez is a colleague of mine.

00:41 All right JD. So I've known you for a few months. Now you actually were at the same school. I did my internship ship at Lassiter High School and although we didn't really know each other very well during my internship. I've gotten to know you pretty well since then we've done quite a bit of activism together, but aside from that, I don't know a whole lot about you. So tell me a little bit about yourself. How would you describe yourself? It's pretty difficult to describe myself and just a short space but

01:20 I'm a writer I come from the gifted program at Lassiter, generally and

01:29 I'm kind of that stereotypical slacker there who kind of gets off easy because they can maybe handle things a little more easily than others.

01:42 And

01:44 I'm also a Christian. I am founded deeply and religion though. I've become a lot more Progressive over time. I grew up that way and I'm also gay that was something that I finally accepted March this year.

02:06 Okay, so so you recently came out as gay in March of 2009, but when did you first know that you were? Okay, I think I first signs of it when I was in second grade. And that's before I even knew what being gay was it started as an early fascination with same gender relations and then progressed as I got older and I noticed that I wasn't really attracted to the opposite sex, and I didn't

02:43 Except that it first. I tried to convince myself. It was not the case. So I told myself I was bisexual for very long time until March this year when I finally accepted it. Okay, so it seems like it's been quite a journey for you. Okay, I'm grown-up what sorts of messages from family members and friends from the media. Did you receive about people who identify as lesbian gay bisexual transgender queer questioning. It was nothing good. I remember it really just had a negative connotation. I remember the first time I was called Gay was when I was in the fourth or fifth grade and I knew then it was a buzzword that it wasn't anything good to be and so I would just deny it and people accepted bad.

03:33 I didn't really know too much at the time. I hadn't recognized it as being prevalent, but

03:42 As time progressed it became more and more apparent specially in middle school where nobody like that anybody who was identified that way by themselves or just by others ended up being isolated and made fun of constantly.

04:02 So a lot of negative reactions that sounds like from the media and from you know other kids at school sort of using at in a negative way. What about your family, but then we never really talked about it.

04:17 I know that my dad ended up encountering a pretty early because the is nice that he grew up with.

04:29 She is lesbian and because he was so close to her. I think he had to learn to at least agree to disagree with it early on. Other than that. I remember my sister was really the only person I actually got that from early on and that's because she saw it and me before I did and she tried to point about okay, that's that's interesting. So it sounds like there wasn't a whole lot of discussion in your family about being gay or what it meant. It was sort of stabbed with in your family. So what was your coming-out story like describe the reaction from your parents and your friends. It was very cut-and-dry. Actually nothing really to Fantastic a friend of mine came out as bisexual and before that. I had been terrified to even do that.

05:28 And a week later. I came out as bisexual because in that moment it was like when he did and it was okay walls fell down for me and I was able to and then about maybe four or five months later was when I accepted I wasn't bisexual and that I was gay and I told my best friend first and

05:51 Then over the next few months would sum up the courage to tell people who are close to me who may have had a little bit of difficulty with it. My mom accepted it. She was a little taken aback at first. I am my dad did the whole agree to disagree thing. He is treated me no differently since then and she actually drove me here today knowing what this was. So he really supports me as a person even if he doesn't agree with it coming out story and initially. Yeah it it sounds like it and it sounds like maybe you came out as bisexual at first to sort of test the waters and see how people react and I noticed a lot of Youth tend to do that. They sort of tend to come out as bisexual that's kind of a safety net. And then if they see that people are accepting then they'll come out and say actually

06:51 I'm gay. You said earlier that that you are rooted in a strong Christian faith, and it's so I'm wondering how people at your church reacted Iron Man. I am non denominational at this point my parents. My dad is Baptist. My mom has since stopped going to church as much but I never really

07:23 Identified with one church too much it. I recognize the hypocrisy early on in it and the Judgment that goes on and I couldn't really deal with it. So my religion has been entirely my own and I don't base it off of Corporation. So the reaction for my church is actually non-existent attend church service on a regular basis. Okay, so it sounds like you are you're pretty reluctant to embrace organized religion because it did sort of

07:59 I don't know. What did it sort of discourages Doubt an individual thought and so that it sounds like your relationship with with a higher power with Jesus is a sort of more personal it is it's very personal and it's a part of who I am. So okay. And did you get any backlash from from your dad who identifies as as Baptist in in terms of that the Christian aspect of it not specifically because he already knew what I believed and I already knew what he believed. So there wasn't much to be said they're okay. So from Europe from your family there was in a lot of religious backlash because it seems like there's this notion in our society. That one can't be harmonious Lee gay and Christian that you must choose one identity over the other. So how did you reconcile your Christian faith and your sexuality?

08:59 Was pretty hard. Actually I have had bouts in my life where I've become slightly agnostic, but I realized over time that the reason I still am Christian and am gay is because they're actually very similar subjects accepting who you are because being a Christian and having a relationship with God at this point in my life is something I can't deny just as much as being gay and I did try at first because I couldn't handle it I couldn't handle the implications that it was a faulty lifestyle that the orientation I had. No choice over was something that would condemn me, but I realize also that being a Christian is something so found in myself. I would never not believe that it's something I can't deny just as much even more so is

09:59 I believe there's always a God above us and that he's watching out with it for us and I've had things happen in my life that have pointed toward that more than anything. And even he is God is part of what helped me come out.

10:17 So I can't deny that just being myself. It's not choosing one over the other because I can't write can you explain what do you mean God helped you come out?

10:33 I remember it was a night of anxiety for me.

10:39 That I was really looking for direction is a lot of Christians experience at some point in their life is that they just end up hitting rock bottom one way or another various point and will pray to God to just help them out to show them something that will be their salvation for the moment, and I needed to know something cuz a lot of things in my life at the time we're not where they needed to be and I needed that sense of identity and purpose and so I prayed to him very very strongly that night, and I said, I'm know I'm not supposed to be able to control what you do or ask you for stuff like this. But please please just show me something in a dream or anyting what I need to know. Please tell me something.

11:31 And

11:33 Show

11:35 That night when I was dreaming while I had a dream that pretty much.

11:43 Open up the door of my sexuality where I tried to close it so many times before and it was very very strong and something that

11:54 Ended up

11:57 Making me very flustered when I woke up, but at that point it was like basically him saying any done this before is through things. I would hear coincidences with my thoughts when I would hear other people speak about things I was thinking about right here was like he was telling me stop the nine Who You Are

12:20 And that was very powerful and I don't think without that. I would have ever come out.

12:26 It sounds like a really really powerful story and I often hear people talk about whether they're they're gay and Christian or were straight and Christian when it comes to this idea of homosexuality and what the Bible says. There's a lot of people experience cognitive dissonance because on the one hand this is what the Bible says and so they read scripture and the way scripture is interpreted and their church is homosexuality is wrong. It's a sin and yet there's this sense within them that that that can't be true meaning of two people.

13:04 Loving each other and having relationship in a minute in a same-sex sort of partnership. That's that's okay. And then and that they have this sense that that that it's right and yet the Bible says something else and so there's this struggle and it happened with me as well because I was also raised Christian and I dated fundamentalist Christian for 8 years and and he would always tell me to tell my sexuality was a saint even when I started doing activism within the LGBT community and I had the sense of a while the Bible is infallible. And this is what scripture says and yet I know deep in my heart that it can't be true. Even if it says it in the Bible and it sounds like you may be struggled a little bit too with the sense of cognitive dissonance a good very much. So because

14:04 That fear of going to hell is something that drives Humanity just the fear of dying itself and the unknown beyond that is more profound for us than we will ever know. So when I thought about that, it was very difficult to come out which is why I say that when God showed me tried to show me who I really was that is one of the only reasons I was ever able to in the end and I've sent thought more about the Bible and what it says and it is written by man. It can't be infallible because man is fallible and

14:53 When you think about it about two people loving each other?

14:57 Anybody can love anybody emotionally. That's what I've learned feed them the same gender or the opposite gender anybody is capable of harboring feelings of sentiments toward another person. It's just whether they are attracted to that person or not. And so sexual orientation is really just it's leading you one way or another but let's say you have a close friend who you like spending more time with than your significant other which is unfortunately something that happens a lot in society today. You could be considered the love that person more than your significant other. There's just no sexual relation. Absolutely your story resonates so much with me because I feel like I've been on a very similar journey in my face and how I growing up in a in a very not a fundamentalist family but a community that was very concerned.

15:57 And I had this sense of the Bible being infallible and that's what I was taught and I was taught that women are supposed to be subservient excetera excetera and as I've gotten older and as I've studied scripture on my own I've I've realized that the Bible isn't infallible and and sort of coming to terms with that has given me a I feel like a lot more.

16:23 It has helped me grow in my face instead of be limited by it. So it's it's a really interesting perspective and it resonates with me a whole lot more room before you go on. Can you tell us what this term cognitive dissonance is that you've used a couple of times so cognitive dissonance is when when you say that you believe something because that's what you've been taught or what Society teaches you excetera, but you know that it's not real and so it's this struggle.

17:04 And then it happens a lot with with religion and in Christianity, especially if you know scripture says something and you know, you know it.

17:15 To be false for instance in the you know, when the second book of Timothy. What were they talk about women having to be subservient to men? I remember reading that verse in thinking well on the one hand it it must be true because the Bible is infallible. But you know deep within me. I knew you know, if if God is is sore all fair and and so forth then then this wouldn't be in in scripture so that sort of cognitive dissonance. This is very common and in Christianity, and I also wanted to ask you about your school your school climate are you openly gay? It's cool. I am but it's not really anything I talk about if somebody knows I'm fine with that. So

18:01 I haven't really encountered too much trouble. They're okay because I know I was at Gloucester High School last year as I said during my internship. It's a conservative school a lot of you know, Christian fundamentalist and that's cool as well. And so I was wondering if you or anyone you know has experienced religion based discrimination as a result of sexual orientation or gender identity expression so much of it is just religious discrimination. That's what it's founded in mostly is that idea that it's a sin and more and more people just will only be able to use Leviticus.

18:44 As grounds for why it's wrong doesn't even say why it's wrong. It just says this is not wholly and to somebody who is

18:53 That is a horrible feeling that you're born one way and from the beginning. You can't have any control over that and they say it's very easy for people who aren't who do identify as heterosexual to say that it's wrong and they say that it's a choice when

19:16 It's not and I think everything happens for a reason. I will not deny that we're I not gay. I might be just like them. So you think maybe being gay being part of a marginalized group has given you a sense of and a sense of empathy to maybe as well and yeah, I know I I can say just from being there. I would have students coming to my office and then say that who who identified is gay and said that asked me if they were going to go to hell because they were gay because that's what other people said and even if they came out and their friends were trying to be well-intentioned. They would still say things like I'm going to pray for you so that you can change which is very patronizing and condescending and so have you experienced that

20:09 Yourself first hand from from any of the students at school. I think the only person who tried to pray for me to change with myself, okay. So not yet. I think I choose my friends pretty well and they're all very accepting of it.

20:29 Even I had one homophobic friend who outright claimed they were homophobic multiple times and he said that if one of their friends came out as gay they would drop them off the face of the Earth. Basically, they did not they actually a week after I came out they invited me to go camping and I think that

20:57 Because I didn't fit any real stereotype that that actually change their perspective on it and

21:06 They have since become more accepting and I've I find it that happens actually quite often. You know, Harvey Milk said the most political thing you can do is is come out because when when someone comes out to you, you can no longer fit them in that box and fit them in that stereotype and it's a lot more difficult to Harbor those negative emotions about somebody and so they look at you and they're like, wow, he doesn't fit that stereotype of of the effeminate gay male. And and so it's it's I think it's it's incredibly courageous for for youth who's in high school specially if the Reddit conservative school with a lot of people who are intolerant and aren't aren't accepting to come out and in and that really helps change a lot of parts and a lot of mine's just that one act of of coming out so, you know, I I I applaud you for that.

22:06 Was there something that you needed but you didn't get from from from teachers faculty members at school. I don't think any of them really know because it's not something I go and say or talk about I mean, it's just a part of it's something that makes me who I am but it doesn't strictly Define it and it's just it's a little thing you think about it. And the only reason it is as conspicuous today is because of the negative connotation that receives from the society when really when you get down to it

22:41 Is very on affecting of other things and it isn't something you really need to talk about every other second. It's just kind of there. It's like something you put on the shelf and makes up the shelf and which is part of your room that say in an analogy, but it's really just part of the decorations not something you really have to use all the time.

23:06 Absolutely. No, I absolutely understand what you're what you're saying. But when I when I talk to a lot of Educators, I'm an educator myself and a school counselor. I hear this word tolerance come up a lot and to me when I when I hear tolerance, I sort of cringe because I think tolerances is very limiting. I mean you look it up in the word in the dictionary actually means to endure and people always use tolerances the sort of Ideal that everybody should strive toward but you know, I I think tolerance you know, it doesn't seek Justice finds comfort in the in the status quo and I feel like it's almost demeaning is is there something that you wish maybe your school would have done for your family would have done to affirm you in your sexuality instead of merely tolerate you

24:04 I'm not sure because I'm generally fine with who I am and I don't think about it too much anymore. So

24:13 I don't think I need any confirmation from them. I know what I believe and I don't believe it's wrong anymore. I don't believe it is a sin. I believe it's natural. And so then being tolerant of me when somebody agrees to disagree with me, I can accept that do I think it's right? No, but I think they are just as grounded in their beliefs as maybe I am and having empathy as you said before that is one thing I've gained by thinking of who I would be if I wasn't gay and I said, I think they've come so far and their beliefs that sometimes they don't have a choice. They can't change their mind anymore and I need to accept that and accept where they're coming from even if it's not right.

25:09 And I think what I would like to see is early on for not to become a buzzword like when I was in elementary school when you learn just that it's wrong that you don't really know why that's just when it starts for it not to start like that for it to be introduced early and do not be something that's so bad. But you know something you just could be sounds like that's a great attitude to have that you feel comfortable enough with your own skin to realize that there are people who are going to hold these beliefs and that they're going to be negative and narrow-minded, you know, if you are at the end of the day and that's really what's most important going back to the facepiece because I think that's something that's very sailing it to you. I was wondering JD if you could write an open letter to James Dobson Tony Perkins Pat Robertson and all the other fundamentalist pastors who consistently use the Bible to justify their own anti-lgbtq Cuba

26:09 What what do you think that letter would say that actually would probably be an argument cuz

26:17 I don't think I could really change their minds by appealing emotionally. They probably wouldn't believe me immediately.

26:25 But

26:27 I actually think of you use science to justify it creationism or

26:37 Evolution and just that theory

26:40 Either way, you can end up discounting the belief that it's wrong by God created a perfect world see erratically. And so when you see let's say homosexuality in animals, they're supposed to be innocent and Solace necessarily and when you see that kind of thing, why would God made them anything that's supposed to be unnatural? Why wouldn't they just

27:12 You know.

27:13 Perform systematically and do everything as you just supposed to be basic and fundamental. So therefore you would have to believe it's

27:24 Either right or that creationism isn't actually I would start and I think there is a compromise and that

27:35 God Is So spectacular he doesn't have to create all everything at once. He could have planned everything out.

27:40 And we don't really know that but we know that he's there. I think that's that's a great argument and also just sharing your story is is incredibly powerful because people always did it just the same sort of thing coming out to somebody because people are always looking at things that divide us, but when you tell your story there's something and everybody story that connects us some sort of human element we can connect with something in your story whether it be a Triumph for Weatherby truck tragedy whether it be a time when you didn't feel accepted or you didn't feel like you belong to everybody can connect to those sort of basic human elements and everybody story and it and it that that sort of connection. I think opens our heart and makes us more accepting. I think that's how we can really change hearts and Minds is by using our voices to share our stories. So again, I commend you for

28:40 For using your voice so often to share your story in the activism work that you do and just today sharing your story. I think that's great. Especially still a thing.

28:54 In high school. So regarding issues affecting lgbtq youth. What's one piece of advice? You would give Educators in training if they have a problem with it to see something and somebody who does identify as transgender or bisexual or gay to identify a part of them that has nothing to do with that and it's just something positive, you know, the phrase look for the good in a person tired and not to isolate them because that's unfair in a lot of ways because we and religious differences.

29:36 Let's say believing in something else like Hinduism or Islam and it says not to believe in a false god. That's also one of the sins in the Bible.

29:52 Now everybody comes from a different background and what they believe is what they believe so that we can agree to disagree on that but not agree to disagree on other things such as sexual orientation. That's what they should be able to learn to do. I mean eventually as you said, we hope that it won't just be tolerance that it'll be acceptance learning to look past that and then see the person and definitely the qualities that make them who they are and not just judge them based on that one. Yes identity. I think that's really great. And it sounds like as we said before this has really been a journey for you and you just came out and accepted yourself as gay last March. So if you could go back and give yourself one piece of advice, what would it be probably wouldn't have anything to do with my sexual orientation. I have made other mistakes if there was something regarding that and probably begin.

30:52 In a relationship with a girl that I might have hurt, but I think we learned from everything. So that's a dangerous idea to be able to do that. I've always told myself. The one thing I would do is probably just to stay with my dog when I got to put the sleep that is just a regret that I think wouldn't really affect much but would be able to give her solace in her death. So these days stomach stumbling blocks around the way you see them or as opportunities for growth and so going back to try and change that would somehow changed the course of what your life is common then change who you are today. So I think that's a really interesting perspective. So how do you think you're different now than you were a couple of years ago before you came out? I think I'm exactly the same. Actually. It's up or maybe not for these reasons. We all change gradually and get older and our beliefs may differ.

31:55 I think it's just that I'm the exact same I've just accepted it. It's not really a difference.

32:03 It's just an Enlightenment and I have changed a few of my opinions surrounding it, but that's all.

32:13 You're still the same person at your core because it sent since I've known you you've really made of made it a priority to to go out and tend to share your story ended to try to change people's minds and get them to be more inclusive especially with regard to education. I know you and I have addressed the school board a couple of times to try and get a comprehensive enumerated anti-lgbtq policy are anti-bullying. I'm sorry an anti-bullying policy in the Cobb County School System one that's inclusive of sexual orientation and gender identity expression. So why do you think that's important to to be an activist? It really is just something that gives a person meaning in life, and I've always been really strong on that and it's a door.

33:12 That I think an open up other doors and it's something I do believe in that. I want to see change done as far as that's concerned and

33:23 And if my story can help anybody, I'm very glad for it to be out there. Cuz sometimes that is the strongest thing is just a story not an argument. Not some.

33:38 Big discussion or debate on why is right or wrong, but just to get to the core of human nature. What was that? Like the first time that you spoke out on this issue? It felt really good. Like I was doing something right in for the better. And I remember I remember the first time you addressed the school board and you didn't go up there with talking points or with Statistics or anything like that. You you essentially just shared your story and and you basically said, I'm this I'm that you said sometimes I'm too prideful for my own good. I'm Christian and I'm also gay and I think that really resonated with a lot of the folks who were there in sitting in on the school board meeting because as as we mentioned,

34:38 A lot of people think that those should sort of those identity should be mutually exclusive and so when you speak out and when you do activism, do you think it's important to

34:54 To self identify as Christian and sort of use that as part of your story I do because that's where a lot of the Judgment comes from and I know now that God is accepting of anybody and loves them for who they are and he's always going to have somebody's back and I know lately he's had mine in a lot of ways and when I was speaking that night I had prayed before that cuz I don't know what I was going to do when I went up there. I tried to get talking points together and I was scrambling and I didn't know if I was going to trip over my words or anything. So I just said please just help me say the right thing and

35:33 I wasn't quite finished when the two minutes went up, but I remember I ended at the perfect place and it was completely coincidence. And so I mean that I would pray to God and ask for that and he didn't mess me up. He supported me and I think

35:53 Just right there. It was the way he can show himself right? And so it sounds like part of combating heterosexism homophobia and transphobia is trying to also combat religion based discrimination because the two are very much linked as history has shown him in the Bible has consistently been used to justify oppression against marginalized population Weatherby women, whether it be people of color weather be at those in the lgbtq community. So it is important I think to include that in your story because it's it's really difficult to eliminate head or sexism and homophobia. If you don't also try to Target that religion based oppression,

36:45 So why do you think it's important for people to share their stories? And why do you think JD it's important to share your story because

36:55 Anybody maybe at one moment in their life needing to hear something specific from one person and that can change their lives and consequently changed the world and my story about being a Christian and being gay is something that should contradict itself but doesn't and I think a lot of people need to hear that because Christianity itself, which I'm very passionate about religion more passionate. In fact, then something like my sexual orientation.

37:27 But

37:29 It engender such hate sometimes and it shouldn't it should engender love and all around and

37:37 The fact that it doesn't today all the time is a direction. We need to stop heading in and we need to change that and so just my story there. I hope can affect both people have that impression grounded in them in the people who are finding it difficult to compromise and I think that's that's really important and it's so inspirational. One of my favorite quotes is from Ambrose Redmoon who says courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the Judgment that something else is more important than fear and I think that you in spite of adversity in spite of the fear. I know you must have been feeling for you dressed the school board for the very first time you knew deep in your soul. This was more important than fear that sharing your story and having a voice and fighting Injustice was more important than fear and I can't tell you how proud I am.

38:37 Of you for speaking out and continuing to tell your story. So I thank you so much. Thank you, okay.