Margaret Dahl and Madeleine Dahl

00:06 My name is Madeline doll. I am 26. It's June 17th, 2017 and I am in Atlanta with my mother.

00:16 And I am Margaret doll. I am 61. It is June 17th 2017 in Atlanta and I am with my daughter.

00:27 So I remember I was 12 and my sister was 7 and my brother is 22 when you were diagnosed and I'm really curious about in that process and experience what some of your challenges were with your diagnosis of mental physical psychological and how you got through them.

00:51 Well, those are all really good questions and I have to say first of all it's it feels kind of like an honor to be able to have this time to do this with you because as you know, I was diagnosed what would have been 14 years ago with breast cancer. And as a family I don't think we've really talk too much about about the experience and as we are all now adults and so I'm I'm really actually pretty excited to be able to do this because I really haven't thought about it that much and but when this came up through door Decor, I thought well if my daughter Madeline really wants to do this, this could be really interesting for a number of reasons. So having said that when I was diagnosed I was completely shocked and part of it was as I recall the day it was at and at the very end of June, I believe it was June 30th 2002 thousand and three

01:51 And I was in the process of taking you to the airport because you are going to go on a trip to Seattle by yourself to steer grandparents and I had kind of been told come by for another mammogram which happens quite a lot to women that you get called back for that second mammogram. Maybe it's sort of fibrous tissue. They couldn't really figure out I just need to do it again and I wasn't worried about it. But what I recall so vividly is having to wait for the radiologist to come and talk to me and getting increasingly agitated. I need to get you to the airport and she came in and she said I have some news for you. I think this is ductal carcinoma carcinoma in situ breast cancer. It's in an early stage, but I think you need to have a stereotactic biopsy and I remember just

02:51 Reeling from what what is that and say, okay. I have to go now and then picking you up and driving to the airport from Athens and the whole time just not really being able to say anything and getting you to the airport on your flight and then calling dad from the airport and saying I think I've had a nasty encounter with a mammogram and so my immediate challenge was

03:21 That experience in that sort of shock and fear and not wanting to convey any of that to you and then having to go home and you know, Miranda was quite a bit younger than you and still not wanting to convey any of my fear to her and

03:42 But I'll see you know, I'm I'm a pretty independent person and so I went ahead and did my biopsy and just kind of took care of all of the details and it was almost like being and was almost like being a machine. I've just going through these very rational steps and not letting myself think about the implications and I think honestly when you talk about when you asked about the sort of psychological the personal challenge,

04:14 The part of it was in my mind whatever this is about and whatever's going to happen. There is no way I am not going to be here for my daughters.

04:27 And I have to even say it was really almost like a.m.

04:32 A lioness that is just there is nothing that is going to prevent me from being here to take care of my daughters and I've often said that to your father and your father at times has said what he said, you know, where do I fit into this? But at the end he always knew of course that I I am just absolutely relied on him every inch of the way for everything but at the same time, I think it was almost an instinct that kicked in that was just that and that was the biggest challenge is everything that I did after that day.

05:15 Had to guarantee that I was going to be here.

05:20 What was when he brought up Dad because of my other question is how did he handle it? I mean I can't really remember cuz I guess I wasn't there for the initial still I needed a very good job on that airport ride, cuz I have no recollection of any anxiety or the hives from you and that experience when I was 12. I don't know if I was picking up on those anyway, but

05:47 How did how did that conversation go with Dad and you know at what was his reaction or response, sir?

05:55 It's it's very good. It's a great question because what I think is the way your dad and I have always functioned is as a team. And so I remember when I call dad from the airport. His immediate concern was to say it'll will work this out like we worked everything out. It's going to be fine and drive carefully and inches get home and

06:25 And I think with Dad.

06:28 Immediately we go into operational mode and will get back to the emotions and they're all of that later. But it was absolutely about what is the Strategic plan to manage this what are the tasks that we have to divide up and Conquer and and I think absolutely at the end of the day it was always about sharing information with each other and and of course with Dad it was always relentlessly thinking through the logic of what we are just hurt and had whatever we just heard. Was that good enough. Who else do we need to talk to what else do we need to do? And

07:14 To be honest, I don't think we let ourselves get emotional at all until.

07:22 After everything after surgery after pathology reports after everything and and and I suspect both of us had our own private emotional moments. So you should probably ask your dad there, Honestly don't know that like when finally things are in the clear or seemingly, so what was that emotional response then was it just relief was it it way Outta cause it was a contact Point you're dealing with your kids and everyone else who knows from your co-workers your employees your extended family. What I say, is that the lead-up to the surgery and

08:11 And Tidwell and of course, I should backtrack a little bit and say part of the Strategic plan was understanding from the surgeon that it would be okay to not do the surgery immediately when I was first diagnosed there was an and I should explain this because there was a what I can only say and unfortunately, I think this happens too often in the Healthcare systems and there was a bit of a misunderstanding on what my treatment really needed to be and it was a it was it was upsetting that initially the first surgeon that I talk to and had not really had the opportunity to look at the mammogram and instead of saying that basically treated me is it in a very general?

09:02 Pattern in and said, you know he ate while he had not really had the opportunity to look at the images that from what he had been able to see on the written records that it would probably be a lumpectomy.

09:15 And and some radiation and you know bump in the road good to go.

09:22 And I've never forgotten when we in this might be a clue about your dad. But when we walked out of that surgeons office dad said to me, how did you feel about that? And I said, I don't feel comfortable. I don't think this person has this is a general surgeon. This is not somebody who's doing breast surgery every day of the week. So and Dad's comment was good. Cuz that's the way I felt I felt like if I was stuck on a cruise ship and had an appendicitis, he'd be fine, but not what we're doing so course on to the next and and the shock was when we did find that right wonderful wonderful surgeon.

10:01 She looked at the images and immediately within 3 seconds said okay. This is what we would need to do and she said a mastectomy and dad and I both looked at each other with wide eyes and about fell on the floor because nobody had talked about mastectomy and she looked at us and said

10:19 I sense I'm saying something that is not what you expected and we both said no, that's not what we expected. But she explained and she explained it. So well that there was no question. But of course it was pretty shocking and and so I say that because I think

10:39 That having found the right team meant everything because then for me for your mother who has a very hard time giving up control.

10:52 To anybody I had to get to a place where I could just trust and give over and that probably was one of my greatest greatest challenges and greatest fear was giving up control and and and I remember dad being very

11:15 Positive in in reinforcing we found the team we found the right team. It's going to be great. It's going to be fine.

11:24 And I think it's so to answer your question. I think there was a lot of anxiety and a lot of severe is this going to be? Okay and remember?

11:35 You know 14 years ago WebMD and a lot of those kind of resources were not freely available at you were sort of handed the Susan B. Komen 500-page book and said, you know, this will help and I think for me it took a long time during that process to learn.

11:57 How to control that anxiety and yet I have to say I probably that the the relief after the surgery the relief getting a clear path report and not having to go through a lot of further treatment

12:15 Was absolutely wonderful.

12:18 But I would have to say the anxiety never went away year after year. I'd have to go back for mammograms, you know twice a year for a few years and then it got back to once a year and I'd say really it's only been in the last three years that I don't have that anxiety, which of course now makes me worried about I'm getting lacks you think maybe I should I need to start thinking about this again.

12:44 So when did you decide to tell us kids and how I mean it was an amazing experience being out at La Push out in Washington in the coastline and ride off the grid. That's right ways. I started to explain that I am but I'm curious cuz it's not an easy thing to tell at 12 and 7 year old that are their mom is in good being a perilous situation and Tina, right? I don't know the outcome from this that was part of the the discussion was the surgeon about did I have to do the surgery right away or could I put it off and because we had already planned our 2-week summer vacation out in the Northwest where we're from and and in fact, we had we knew we were going to go out to the Washington coast to La Push and stay on that wonderful Indian reservation and

13:34 I said to Dad if if we could be together as a family and tell you and Miranda at that time that is how I wanted to do it because I felt probably again this control stuff that I felt I would then be able to I could prepare everything as rationally and as logically as I could and so when the surgeon said that was fine, there was not an immediate need to do it like next week, but we should do it within a six-week. Will that all fit so course we went out to Seattle stayed with your grandparents and did they now?

14:11 You know, that's a really interesting because we told them early one morning when you girls were all asleep.

14:20 And they were surprised but it's almost like it didn't register. Well, then they proceeded to share with us that your grandpa had to have a valve replacement in his heart. Oh and so it was like family mobile chairs together tears to get gas. And and so, you know, it was a little weird because we of course we're very concerned to hear that but it's almost like neither couple could really quite connect to what the other couple was going through is very strange and on the other hand, of course lot of affection in and recognition and you know, so what was kind of like, okay. So Gramma Grampa, what are you going to do about his treatments and then you know, whether it be sweater, what's your plans? So and we had told him we were going to tell you when we went out to the beach and

15:17 So I'm I'm curious if you remember. I I remember we got settled into that beautiful cabin and I don't really quite remember exactly what time of day or anything it was but I do remember saying to the two of you we needed to talk to you about something and let you know and I remember trying to reiterate and everything is going to be fine and part of it at that point is because I felt bad and I felt like we had a plan we knew who the surgeons were. We knew where we're going to be.

15:48 We knew your wonderful wonderful babysitter Ashley was on Deck. She knew what she was going to do. And so it's kind of like we just needed to roll this out and and reassure you but I I knew we had no idea how you were going to react or feel so I guess I'm going to kind of asked you what do you remember and how did it feel I know it's at night time and I think it was as you might remember the details, but if it was the same time, we've been out and dad and I got so numb out in the we have waves and remember we spent all day on the beach was like a five-minute walk from the the deck of where we're staying and you had to throw a Miranda and me into the like jacuzzi tub thing. Not really for fun. But because we were freezing cold. I don't know that we're all swaddled up and then had dinner and we are on the couch and you could see the ocean you could see the the rocks out in the water.

16:48 Are the kind of forest Cliff drops into the water and you kind of dad I remember Miranda and I weren't kind of each of your arms. And then Dad was on the kind of side watching and Anthony has told us and I think I don't remember feeling particularly traumatized or

17:08 Really freaked out. I do remember being like answered the very serious word and is my mom going to die like that was but it wasn't like a histrionic. It's all been decided or something. I don't really know with Miranda. I think she was more anxious visibly. She was ride a number she was tearing up, but then you were very

17:32 I think it's kind of a testament to the way you guys broke that newest. It was very minor name is very calm. And like there was a place for us to have our feelings and our emotions and you both were very reassuring I feel like their ice cream sandwiches involved afterwards and that was kind of a rap. I think every now and then right and I would talk about it, but I think it was also kind of mechanical in a way when we were kids and it was very like, you know, we hear something from you or Dad about your treatment or have we had to go to Atlanta to see you and but I feel like you guys did a lot of kind of very balanced real talk with also some cushioning. I think we did a lot of staging. Yeah, I think I don't know where it is that very determined to protect you from anything.

18:28 And I suspect part of that was I felt very strongly that I needed to.

18:36 I guess I needed to get through whatever I was going to have to get through and make sense of it and then be able to

18:44 Figure out the best thing to do for my girls because what I didn't end in this is I'm just going to stay in terms of life lessons totally unrealistic that you're going to keep your children protected and and not have any pain. I mean, I it's been interesting. Once once we agreed that we were going to do this conversation when I sort of surprised that I actually found all my old notes that I really had forgotten about and didn't realize I catch but when I look through them I see this theme is continual theme of and

19:23 Taking every day and I had this thing about writing down every day what the gift of the day was and it might have been something simple like and realizing at you girls had hugged me in some way that made me acknowledge the gift of unconditional love for my children and assertive an interesting pattern. Am I take that up again actually and writing thinking about every day at the end of the day what the gifted the day was besides the challenges, but I do see when I think back on it just the

20:00 Relentless commitment to protecting my girls from what could be the worst?

20:07 For whatever. That is. Well, it's saying you're saying that because the you know, what you said about protecting your kids. I think that Miranda and I had very different reactions to when Megan was diagnosed with tongue cancer, and that was our older cousin and you're one nice on your side of the family and I think for that experience from random you was way more intense and I'm sure that's partially because someone younger he grew up with us a kid. It's a different kind of proximity, but there wasn't a station with that there wasn't really couldn't face me. You know, I think for her and me, that was a much more

20:48 Traumatic experience. I mean she got a cat out of it and I remembered I was in college and totally alone didn't have anyone there to really I could kind of talked to some people but they didn't really get it and

21:04 I don't I think that one might have been the experience for that protection was kind of realized. I don't think she and I have earnestly made the connection that we've been through this before really, you know, right it was such a different set of experiences and and it was

21:22 It was catastrophic to lose a 29 year old beautiful young woman oral cavity cancer that and was just out of nowhere. I also think part of that is it happened very quickly and it was an extremely painful and I think both of you knew that Megan was in a lot of great deal of pain and very courageous, but it was it was a very very difficult answer really stunning memory for me with that was before her wedding and when our whole family was there and we got to meet a lot of her friends and I remember our Aunt your sister talking about how she didn't really get the the dream wedding she wanted but what are you going to do? And it was really amazing to see everyone rally around this person, but it was the moment right before the ceremony where it was Gavin Miranda and me.

22:22 Down at the beach in Rhode Island and

22:27 We was just kind of a therapeutic momentous siblings are just ameerah making sandcastles and then I was 19. He was he was 29 and then Miranda was I guess if she wants to come up this morning and

22:43 It was a realization. I think that we were never going to see her again and then talking about that and like what are you do it with Miranda in her kind of Spitfire rocket little sister way that was like, well no one said yet and so we just left a party and fix a collective what we did we had a great party, but I think of those two experiences in our family is now talking with you realizing that it's strange that a 19 I didn't make the connection that we've been through that before in a way and I think that is an interesting observation because I know it's some point you would said to me. How did I think about my mother who had cancer uterine cancer?

23:27 And I when you brought that up, I was very puzzled by that because I made absolutely no connection to me and yet.

23:35 It's obviously that there is some sort of sensitive. Why why wouldn't I have thought maybe this is something genetic or that there is some correlation. I think the reason I never felt that connection. Is that by the time my my mother your grandmother and was diagnosed. It was just too as in her seventies and had other chronic issues as well. What I have never forgotten about that experience was how shocked the doctor was because that particular cancer similar now thank God to a lot of breast cancer is is very treatable and it was almost like why would somebody not have dealt with that and maybe for me with my mother much and all as I absolutely adore The woman there were a lot of things in her life. She probably never dealt with so

24:33 I think in many ways as a person I have gone the opposite and try and deal with everything straight up and you know it being my very direct self and confront everything and which is quite the opposite to her. So I probably just it is interesting but it makes you wonder if that is another kind of Shield another little bit of protection that and if you have a parent that goes through that experience and gets through it and is okay and maybe it chills you a little bit from what can happen I guess for me. My point is at what I'm thankful for in that situation is I think by the time you were confronted

25:20 With what happened with our beloved niece Megan and you were probably old enough to handle it. Maybe not maybe that's not fair. But I have to process it. I don't always think I handled my grief extremely. Well, there are a lot of very late nights and kind of

25:44 Maybe escapists mentalities of Hino trying to very much taken spiration and embrace life but there comes a point when like death of your comparative the way you are living your life that's not really fair to do to yourself. You know, you're allowed to be afraid of things. You're allowed to put the brakes on sometimes and I think that year was really good in that I traveled a lot but I was very aggressively living but I think also it wasn't this way coming from a healthy origin all the time and I think I burned myself out by the time she actually passed away and kind of was a realigning for a few months after that.

26:27 But I think also one of the things that your dad and I were very determined to accomplish through my treatment, which I should say was this really aggressive surgery and then being just pretty immobilized for several weeks and

26:47 Was to surround ourselves with humor and of course, I had some wonderful colleagues who stepped up to provide my bad humor. And but I also just remember almost being taken aback by the number of people in our little teeny tiny community of Athens who came forward and just and wanted it wasn't just sending well wishes and hope for the best and and you know, thinking of you it was much more tangible. And so I do think of and a couple of my friends who

27:30 Who knew what my cocktail hour meant and that, you know, I had absolutely clarified with my surgeon that I could have one cocktail every other day.

27:42 And they rotated coming through on a weekly basis to make sure all right. Her talk to Ed Margaret. Her cocktail bit more than an outfit. I made them new cocktails and what I what I so appreciate about that is these were well and thinking in terms of scotch am particularly at where people that is Scott was never into cocktail but my God, he was going to learn Margaret. There was one you made ones that had the eggs home. It was some kind of says there's something and I remembered yeah Emerald Tanqueray number to whatever it was has got called at Bed Bath & Beyond.

28:25 And you know, I I think of those moments well and to be honest, it's somebody asked me. So what was the what did you take away from the whole thing? Well, I'm alive. I'm healthy. I am here with my girls my husband.

28:45 My colleagues and I think

28:49 I I've never gotten right in this is one of the things that I think is so important in this is that for every woman this journey is a unique specific Berry and I'm not going to say special cuz I don't think it is not special. But but that it is your attorney and having said that I think one of the great things that it gave me was a perspective about particularly because I've had this very demanding career to know how to step back and

29:28 Just look at every day for what it is and I am going to go back to that thing about at the end of the day saying what was the gift of the day?

29:38 Eat butt

29:40 Over the years I have had an inability to recognize when that is so important and it's so important for I constantly and trying to Mentor younger women to know how to do that without having to go through some wretched disease to learn that lesson.

30:02 One person that I remember was really important to my sisters and my total sanity and regularity in all of this was our Nanny Ashley. I think at the time was in her early twenties and his mom had also gone through through it. I think a pretty intense a lymphoma and she I mean even as a kid like she was incredible and just picked us up from school. Make sure we did our homework hands face and teeth still my health Mantra in like playing Uno having to help her with science projects when she got her cat. She was just kind of the older sister and also for two kids who are pretty Northwest at heart. It's also kind of a translator of Southern feminine culture Tri Delta sorority girl who would pick up snakes. Yes, and I think that was a really powerful model for a lot of reasons to feel like you can be feminine and you can be extremely powerful and and tell her

31:02 And nobody should be allowed to mess with you with any of that. So I remember her being kind of this kind of facilitator of joy and a pattern. You know, she still came and picked us up from school. And I remember we went to go visit you after surgery. We blasted every 80s dance song we could think of on the highway and Miranda seeing her first stretch. Limo and just was apoplectic and excitement on the way to the hospital and I remember where the moment we got there Ashley just giving this big smile and saying like, are you ready? Jason your mom and we open the door and it was just this wall of flowers since it was like your room was a floor shop. And remember that time was really really special if it was that I think that for us with the moment if I go it could be. Okay like it. This is going to be okay, you know, who is Ashley is okay and happy and give him a big

32:02 Megan Ashley was one of the rocks of Gibraltar in this whole thing and obviously as she had been through this with her own mother. She was very honest in saying to me she felt that her mother and in who I was were these real role models for her and she didn't know why the two of us had to go through this horrible disease and at the same time if there was anybody that was going to get through it. It was the two of us. Well Ashley was a big part of me getting through it because I could absolutely trust that my girls were going to be safe. And okay and the whole thing about the hospital was interesting cuz when we went to the hospital I had said to Ashley, I don't want the girls to see me in the hospital and it's cuz it's going to be sterile and not a very nice environmental be kind of scary. So you just keep them.

32:52 Well, I have to admit when Dad and I got to Northside and we saw this huge bouquet of flowers in the front lobby and it looks like kind of a Starbucks and it was sort of like a hotel we immediately called Ashley and said bring the girls. This will be great. And I'm so glad we were able to to do that because I also think I remember Miranda it looking at the drip in my arm and sort of thinking. Oh my God, there's a needle in your arm. But but because it was such a positive environment. It was a way to make sure this was real to you and that you were kind of a part of what really happened.

33:33 But I also felt it wasn't going to be some indelible shockings horrible memory, you know also kind of going back to that protection thing. But also giving your kids space to feel their stuff. Like I think there are multiple times with Ashley were we were sad or tear it up and she was very sensitive and loving about that but then I would also be like but it is soft your homework. I can still talk everyday it will happen if I remember that visit and it was really I think it was maybe one of the first times as a kid. I felt I could relax or not have the to hold its breath for the baited breath. And then I remember seeing you and then we got to go get pizza. If it was if it was nice about it. It wasn't nothing was trivialize. Nothing was put under the radar. It was very all part of the sequence and you know, it was very

34:31 Normal, without it being boxden. I know and in hindsight I have often look back at this and have had this reaction. It's almost almost a guilt reaction. I

34:46 Because I'm even though I'm in in the research Arena and obviously involved. I've been involved in healthcare and I've always felt this like I knew how to go get resources. I knew how to try and make this the very best and I did go through this moment of almost every action of I got off really easy with this and if anything that is made,

35:15 I've worked through that to the point now of realizing.

35:19 It's not so much about guilt. It's about turning that experience into something that I can make available and help to other women and I feel very strongly about that.

35:32 I mean, I feel like we've met a lot of women through you who are going through this summer. If you have kids some are just beginning the next chapter of your life and I'm kind of curious what you think. Like you're you're 3 bullet points. This is how you have to show up for yourself. Despite this thing going on your own Journey. So whatever I say is from my experience, but it can't be you can't just translate what I say literally to your experience. You'll find your way and Brace it yet. But I think the other thing I've been very adamant with about is you have to feel whatever it takes to get. The right Medical Care is crucial because you have to be able to give yourself over to that team and trust that team implicitly and so whatever that takes you've got to fight for that.

36:29 And then I think the last thing I've always said to women is and

36:34 Never be afraid to second-guess and never

36:39 Let anybody weather there a friend who's been through this experience or whoever and necessarily color you emotionally with what they experienced in and I think that's a very important part of this and it's hard because you've got to finally figure out at the end of the day who you are and how you're going to handle this, but then who else can you rely on to help pull it all together, but you have to be you have to be in the driver's seat. That makes sense. I am so

37:14 EXO

37:20 Yeah, I'm kind of amazed. I got to know you this cuz you're right. We haven't talked a lot about it. And I think that's partially because it happened pretty quickly and all things considered pretty seamlessly. So it's interesting to get to see my mom 14 years down the road from that and hear her inner thoughts and feelings. I think that's the other part is Conquering your fears and I've been afraid I don't think you ever stopped really living your life because of that either to Steven the cocktail hour, but it's exciting. I mean, I've always known you're very strong independent woman and you expected and kind of condition your kids to be as well. So it's interesting to hear this and more meditative.

38:09 Environment and far removed just have a lot of respect for your mom. Will thank you and of course, you know, I absolutely worship you and your sister Miranda. You think you will try to be worthy.