Leah Knowlton and Emily Champion

00:04 My name is Emily Champion. I am 25 years old. Today's date is January 8th 2019. We are at storycorps Atlanta and my relationship to my interview partner. She is my mother.

00:20 And my name is Leah Knowlton. I am 59 years old. Today is January 8th 2019. We are at storycorps Atlanta and I am being interview today by my daughter Emily. I am her mother, I sure hope so. All right. Well, let's jump into this Mom. The reason I wanted you here to interview you but because I think you're an excellent role model to young women and all of them at this very difficult time in society. You have overcome great obstacles in your life to achieve wonderful results and happiness and I wanted to figure out how we can ask you and pick your brain to help other women overcome their obstacles in life. Thank you and thank you for inviting me and I am so proud of you my wonderful strong woman. Do I figure that's one point out? I did not pay her to say that. All right.

01:20 First question is where were you born? And where did you grow up? I was born in New Orleans, Louisiana and I grew up mainly in Houston, Texas and then Chicago, Illinois. Where did you go to high school and college? I went to high school in Chicago Oak Park and River Forest High School.

01:46 And went to college at the University of Chicago and law school at Yale law school. So you went from high school. What was your plan? What were you going to do after high school? Well, I was in high school and got very good grades and got a very good score on the SAT, which is the test for college knowledge aptitude test, and I went to the guidance counselor at the high school. I think I had to meet with him and he told me while you have two options for you.

02:31 View future career. You can be a nurse or a teacher.

02:36 And at that time I was down on teachers and so I thought okay. I told him. All right. I'll be a nurse.

02:45 So I went home and told my family and my father said well, you don't have to go to college to be a nurse but he thought a lot of hospitals and employers were going to require in the future that a nurse have a Bachelors of nursing which was a four-year Nursing degree. So he thought I should go to college. So you went to Knox College you said? Yes, I am. I looked I was in Chicago at the time. We looked at a few small colleges in the Midwest and I ended up going to Knox College in Galesburg, Illinois. And what experiences did you have at Knox College? How did they shape you and your future well, it is turned out I went there.

03:43 Planning to be a nurse and said that's what I thought I had to do and I did very well in my science classes in chemistry and physics and and I must say that kind of shook me up at changed. My plans changed the way I thought about myself in the future. And in the first it was my first year of college I heard about the Equal Rights Amendment the era and I became more interested in that. I was still a pretty men at a pre-med major. I'll let me interrupt you for a moment and describe the ER. All right, if the era is the equal rights under the law that shall not be to find or bridge by the United States or by any state on account of sex. That's it some basic.

04:43 Protection based on sex so you were interested in the era at Knox College and how did the how did that become an important point in your life? Well, I can't remember how I became interested in it. It it the campaign was then raging across the country and Illinois at that time that so I started college in 1978 78-79 my first year 79-80 my second year Illinois with as I recall. I'm a little fuzzy on the details but a crucial state if not the last state that had to ratify it or could ratify it before the expiration was a couple years later.

05:38 And so I very clearly remember I have never done any public speaking. And again, I was like 19 I or organized advertised that I wanted to get involved with the era and I was going to go to this room where we were having the meeting I had organized and I was riding down notes on index cards and I went there and I think I sat there hunched over my index cards reading it instead of looking up at people because I was so scared and

06:23 Fast forward in quickly. I became the president of the now chapter at Knox College. That's the National Organization for Women and the coordinator of the Equal Rights Amendment campaign in

06:45 That voting district which included Phyllis Phyllis Schlafly's voting district. You have some strong feelings about the the people who are against it particularly in the shaft laid herself now, so you were you were the organizer of that campaign to pass that can describe that for me and how it affected your personal life at Knox College. Sure. Well, I was 19. I thought it was just a great honor to be the coordinator of the ER a campaign. However, I do suspect in retrospective. It was a throwaway on the part of the now national campaign coordinators, cuz I mean just that we were a bunch of children a bunch of 1918 20 year old.

07:45 College women and but we had lots of energy and we had meetings we had we organized women from on the campus and in the community and started having a lot of meetings Broad and speakers. We would go campaign in Springfield, Illinois, which was the state capital. And yes, I think I've told you some of these stories out here. We were young girls young women with our proera signs and they had these big plywood stop signs that said stop era on them, but it was in the shape of a stop sign.

08:33 On big piece on blackboards and they would hit us over the heads with those things. They would literally Pummel our group and we would have to run and hide from them all the while they would be like passing out bread freshly baked bread to the male legislators and carrying on with all these absurd ridiculous fear-mongering and lies of the day fake news of the day. Although there was no internet. No cell phones. No CNN, none of that that's traumatizing. I know that's true. It's back in the Dark Ages. This is there is a serious ads so

09:19 I am was in the balcony and when the big vote came on the era passage of the era.

09:32 Well, we had been there number times, but the for some reason I'm pretty sure it was I think it was spring or so of 1980 and that was the vote that would pass it or kill it till the Equal Rights Amendment Nationwide. I think after that there might have been another voters. So but that was we thought that was the crucial vote might think the die was cast then the next it was the same legislature would be there in the next year. So yes, and I was up in the balcony and listen to the legislators all men.

10:17 As I recall, I say all the reasons why women couldn't have equal rights and voted it down and it killed the era.

10:27 So how did that affect your schooling at Knox? How did that affect your life from then on? Well that's semester. I was very busy campaign and very much caught up in all my political activities ended up having to take incomplete and all my classes and when it went down I was so depressed and it promptly got mono. I was very sick, so I sent spent some

10:58 The last month or so of school.

11:01 Sick in bed and

11:05 Spend the summer trying to had to repeat my coursework to try to clear up the income plates, but the next school year that school year at the end of that one and certainly in my second year it became clear to me and my

11:21 Mentors and the professors

11:26 Who were helping me? Then I would be best off moving to a different school. I would be heckled and screamed at like walking through campus there. There were at that time these frat houses on campus these big mansions and the Frat Boys would be lined up on their balconies screaming at me and they would make all kinds of comments passing in the Halls back. Do you have hairy legs? But you never shave burn your bra gives you ever been burning your bra size. You wear a bra or no bra and that men and women but women found the era and the concepts of feminism. Very threatening to sew the professors who were helping me help.

12:21 Might write letters of recommendation and I got into the University of Chicago and left Knox which Knox is in Galesburg, Illinois downstate. And so then I went back to the city. She wants to see her at University of Chicago. Did you still want to do pre-med and nursing or had that influence and experience in politics changed you had you wanted to do something else instead of nursing well by that point I had been doing very well in science classes and actually was pre-med and I was still pretty mad at the University of Chicago, although the pull of

13:05 My political interest. I actually eventually led me to major in sociology. So I graduated with a major in sociology. Although I had enough science classes to I met the pre-med requirements, but I was really always interested in science and I became interested in environmental environmentalism just another form of activism and read Silent Spring this book right by Rachel Carson and became very interested in I wanted to go to law school to be an environmental attorney. That's when I decided way back then how did your parents feel about law school? Particularly? I know that you and your father had some conversations on it that way.

14:05 Fun. Well, I had I was discouraged and almost every step from pursuing anything. I've pursued at that time. I was so I was at the University of Chicago. I had great grades great GPA and

14:26 I decided I wanted to go to law school. My father told me well, if you decide to go to law school, you have to know and accept that you will never get married or have children.

14:40 Wow.

14:42 Can you imagine what if Dad said that to you? I don't think he could physically leave his mouth, but I don't either thank goodness. And so I went to the career counselors at the University of Chicago. And I said I want to they said what schools do you want to apply to and I done my research and I said, well, I want to apply to all the top schools Yale Harvard Stanford, and those were at that time and probably still are number 1 2 and 3 schools in the law schools in the nation and I think University of Texas at several others and University of Texas. I considered my safe School.

15:33 And the career counselor in this was a woman then this is about 1982 or so told me don't even waste your money on those applications.

15:49 And it was $35 to apply to make these applications and I was applying to not quite ten schools but enough that it was a lot of money. It was a lot of money to a struggling college student, especially with not having a lot of money growing up either right right asleep then.

16:15 I I went ahead and did it I said it's worth it. It's worth $35 to me to apply to each of these schools just to know I tried and and so against her advice and she was the pre-law advisor. So this was her specialty. I applied to all those schools and got into all of them. So I think I told you this earlier you thought was funny though. This one is my favorite your Stanford story. I it was the first time I met. Put in all these applications. The very first one to come back was Stanford out in California, and I opened up that letter I was shaking and so scared and when I saw that I had been accepted I immediately threw up I just didn't

17:15 Expected I just was shocked and got a good Financial package. I got into Harvard I got into Yale. I got into every school. I applied to.

17:28 And

17:31 In the end and it eventually I I decided on Yale. Well, that's good because you met my father at Yale. And obviously that means my poor grandfather was incorrect that you would have no kids or no marriage. However, let he was I'm sure he is happy about that though. So let's get into your law career. You have been lawyer practicing environmental attorney for 30 years. I have you have been mainly in the state of Georgia and little bit of New York and other places are licensed think that's the correct term. That's right. So what have you seen in the law and in the environment then the social and the political side in the last 30 years swell?

18:24 Pick an outfit and yeah, I went to Yale. Yes. I met your father in my first year and 1984 I guess and at that time the big environmental statutes there half-a-dozen of the major environmental statutes that cover clean air clean water hazardous waste Superfund law that covers cleaning up big hazardous waste dumps. Those were all very new laws. And at the time it looks like I thought a very lucrative career meaningful and I went to law school to be an environmental attorney and it looked like it had a bright future 2

19:15 It hasn't really panned out that way anyway, but I practiced first for a few years in a New York. We we lived and worked in New York. He was at Sullivan & Cromwell. I was at Paul Weiss and then I was running around do airports doing environmental due diligence on Airport and I didn't feel so well I found out I had was pregnant with twins. I older sisters and they are 27 now. So we decided we needed to move to a place with trees John's from Indiana. I'm from Texas and well and love nature. So why we just chose Atlanta and then I we move down here and I have been practicing environmental law almost exclusively and

20:15 The time since I graduated in 1987 and Miele John graduated in 1986. So in over 30 years of practicing environmental law, I must say

20:32 I've seen ups and downs.

20:36 You know the environmental statutes the big laws were for the most part all passed by Republicans Republicans and Democrats all had a very firm consensus. I think we as a society had a strong consensus of that environment the environment was worth protecting and we needed clean air and Clean Water Act Like That ship hazardous waste cumin, right that feels like that should be a basic human, right?

21:10 It has in my practice. I have seen environmental enforcement swing up sharply George HW Bush down sharply George W bush up sharply Obama. And now if you actually can look at the statistics and there's I saw an interesting graphic the other day for the Trump Administration.

21:44 Which is been in office about two years the enforcement statistics are almost a

21:52 Direct download vertical decline. It's just dropped off the page.

21:58 And it's so so sad it is so sad. They're rolling back protections for clean water. Clean air are everything safety all kinds of safety regulations.

22:13 So that at the same time as the assault on women's rights and especially women's Reproductive Rights. I really feel like everything I care most about in life and if fought hard for for my entire adult life is threatened right now and is under assault and that's why one of the reasons I must appreciate you is when you are feeling pinned down and push down your impulses to reach out and help others and push them up and pull yourself up by your bootstraps. You've been your entire life. You've been told you can't do that. I can't do that. And your only response is watch me do that and watch me do it the best ever. I mean you told you couldn't go to law school and you were like, well, I'm going to the number one in the country. So you've and after

23:13 Practicing it a big New York law firm and I came down here practice today and the biggest Atlanta Law Firm. I took some time off to raise you and your sisters and it just I work part-time for a while, but I just needed to be with you. I didn't write you guys were never in a daycare rise and some help from Grandma Nancy your mother and some help from Nanny's but it was primarily you and Dad to my all and that's what I wanted that it how I wanted to raise. So I took a few years off of work.

23:53 Oh, I don't never how old you were probably eight or something when I decided to go back to work, but I met with a recruiter. I had actually known already at a big Atlanta Legal recruiting firm. You know what she told me at best. I could hope to find a paralegal job best. I could hope to be as you are taking a few years off of work yet. I'd ruined my career when I decided to quit working and stay home for a while. I had friends tell me that I was betraying them betraying all of feminism. Oh, wow. I've actually heard similar things were taking the year off to have my daughter and to raise her, but I'll mostly I've heard it from the reverse and find the train her by going back to work.

24:53 I've heard a lot of I don't think I'm supposed to hear them talking but about going back to work and tell him to train It's just sometimes women can't win on either end. You either are betraying right your child or you're betraying feminism, right? There's it's called misogyny. Oh, I'm very deep and I guess with the current moment Donald Trump.

25:23 I just I have just been astounded to.

25:28 See us move backwards so sharply misogynist hate to find some massage in a of a person who hates women deep deeply seated. He dislikes women and during the Brett Kavanaugh Supreme Court and the me to moments of from every woman. I know text email phone calls many time. We saw each other. I think that was one of the most painful experiences of my adult life.

26:07 In my in my political at you know that

26:13 Activities it was it was so so uniquely painful for all of us. I heard for the first time. I'm a lot of women tell their stories that women. I know that I've known forever tell their stories of assault and rape and surviving the traumatizing and terrible thing is that women of my generation the whole generation behind you. It's we've have the same stories and as much as we wanted to be moving forward and as far as we've made it in so many aspects of our social movements. We are still have so much further to go than but I also hear that we feminism is over. It's it's done we fixed it her Aid and I just can't believe people can think that it's I mean sure we can wear pants in public but I still can't get a job that I mean when I'm applying for a job. They see I am wearing a wedding ring in that I

27:13 The child and they think I'm not a reliable worker. Well, I am I think I would be called part of the second wave of feminism the first wave being the suffragettes before that even button culminating in the suffragettes who won the right to vote. The second wave of feminism is is typically called the 1960s new probably I would be one of the last of that waive into the early eighties, but you my friend my loving daughter your part of what has to be the third wave rising up now now I went to the women's March on Washington when upon Trump's inauguration crowd size. We outnumbered the inaugural crowd 321 honest to God it was we were huge want us.

28:13 Thing in the world as long as it had very big hands. Yes, and I can't go to the next one. This is actually went to we didn't March last year. We organised instead. I went there and met a bunch of candidates that I supported the second big wash March on Washington is actually in a week, but I have a terrible foot injury can't go but have inspired all of your daughter's especially my older sister Megan. She is right now in DC starting a new environmental job. She's just the environmental sustainability manager. Yes. I do not understand a word of what she does but I know it is important and she loves it. She takes after you in a lot of ways, none of no one would ever call your daughter's anything less than stubborn persistent strong-willed assertive.

29:13 Persistent that is such a terrible insult. But my sister Megan is going to give her a little money mention here. She has been to multiple watch marches one in Salt Lake City when she lived there and I don't believe she can make the dc14 that but I think she's going next week. She lives in DC now, but but tell you I haven't seen the kind of progress. I would have thought we would have seen in these past 30 years.

29:52 So do you want to talk about your me to moment? Well, you know, I think I mentioned this to you but

30:03 So I'm a lawyer and I came up in big law firms, but not just isn't this course. It's not confined to lawyers, but Law Firm serve especially unpleasant places for women, but about I just about every woman my age who

30:25 Came up and big law firms can tell you a story of actual physical assault or rape or attempted rape?

30:34 And mine was

30:37 And I was working as a paralegal after law school msre after college in Chicago at a big law firm called katten muchin. It's still around and this partner I worked with I came into the office. I don't know what I was doing getting an assignment or something. He slammed me up against the wall and stuck his tongue in my mouth. I guess. That's what I thought then I went running out of there and I told other partners I told mail senior Associates I worked with and of course nothing happened to him and another time. He grabbed my hand and stuck it on his crotch disgusting. But when I got into Yale, I was actually working as a paralegal when I got into all these schools it set off the men all around me. They had to they catch the came on to me. They had to conquer me so bad. So I will make you submissive apparently.

31:37 They are a couple of invited me to go out with drinks with some of them too. And I thought oh how nice they're celebrating my victory My Success. No, actually they were so threatened by me. They had to put me down and over drinks, which is supposed to be a nice thing insulting me telling me the only reason I got accepted into law schools with affirmative action, and then they would rail about affirmative action letting these women and when these men who needed to make money to support families couldn't get in taking I would be taking the place making the chair at the spot in a law school of a man who needed to support his family, so they were insulting but the weirdest thing was they would come on to me sexually they were it was like open season on Lea when I got accepted to all those top schools. Well, I guess your brains and Beauty have always been

32:37 It should be unfit. Well, thank you. I think I look just like you so I hope that's a compliment but I think any of us who have been in professional settings have seen.

32:56 Sexism debilitating sexism. I mean the B-2 I hope to God that you can't say that about your daily experience or that young women in big law firms. Now don't turn to each other and find out that every one of them has an assault story. I think every one of them has a story of significant career harm from sexism. I hope that my daughter your granddaughter grows up and to a world and that that you had hoped that your children are often too. I hope that by the time she's old enough to be talking into a guidance counselor about her career plans said it's not limited by what's in her pants by what's in her heart and brain. I hope and pray you're right and a key part of that.

33:55 Is having men who accept that now and I think her father will darn well, make sure she has the opportunities he may not call himself a feminist but that man is one feminists just like my father. Hey a father of women for their daughters will let's go ahead and wrap up and say our thoughts and sign-offs. So Mom. I love you. I'm really glad I got to interview you and I can't wait for this to be ready able to be heard by others and I hope this teaches somebody to not give up on their dreams just because they're told not to if anything your life has been a story of getting pushed down and getting back up again and continuing to rise above above your place in this world where you were told

34:55 What's thank you my darling. I am so proud of you and love you so dearly at you and your sisters are the best thing that ever happened in my life. And you know, that's what feminism is all about actually is is raising the Next Generation to see the possibilities of choosing any thing. They want to do including being a mother. That's what a lot of people are confused about with feminism. So, I'm proud to be a feminist. I am most proud to be the mother of you and your sisters and thank you so much for suggesting storycorps and and making this happen. I'm glad to do it in the sister. Happy belated birthday, cuz I tried it is so I love you and thank you.